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[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

My mage considered killing Connor the kindest option, because if he survives, his fate is a life sentance in the Circle, a fate she would wish on no one because she hated it. Better dead and at peace than enslaved and broken. Given that he has already become an abomination once and wreaked plenty of havoc, his life at the Circle could end up even harsher and more uncertain.



yet in the end, I am too soft to make those hard decisions. Killing a kid, who in reality is a loveable, brave, and smart kid who will accept death so he won't hurt anyone else, really sucks. I did it once. And while killing Isolde gives me quite a bit of satisfaction, I still can't do it in a real playthrough, because as much an annoying, stuck up cow she is, she's still Connor's mommy, and I just can't bring myself to deprive said brave, likable kid of his mommy.



I get suckered into getting the circle to help everytime. I am weak.



Jowan, though, rocks. he doesn't flinch from his fate, and genuinely feels he deserves it. I never thought he was really evil, just incredibly stupid, who did alot of bad things and hurt alot of people in the process of trying to be free and do the right thing. Something he accepts responsibility for, and really shows alot of remorse for.

[Sabriana]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

My mage considered killing Connor the kindest option, because if he survives, his fate is a life sentance in the Circle, a fate she would wish on no one because she hated it. Better dead and at peace than enslaved and broken. Given that he has already become an abomination once and wreaked plenty of havoc, his life at the Circle could end up even harsher and more uncertain.

yet in the end, I am too soft to make those hard decisions. Killing a kid, who in reality is a loveable, brave, and smart kid who will accept death so he won't hurt anyone else, really sucks. I did it once. And while killing Isolde gives me quite a bit of satisfaction, I still can't do it in a real playthrough, because as much an annoying, stuck up cow she is, she's still Connor's mommy, and I just can't bring myself to deprive said brave, likable kid of his mommy.

I get suckered into getting the circle to help everytime. I am weak.

Jowan, though, rocks. he doesn't flinch from his fate, and genuinely feels he deserves it. I never thought he was really evil, just incredibly stupid, who did alot of bad things and hurt alot of people in the process of trying to be free and do the right thing. Something he accepts responsibility for, and really shows alot of remorse for.

I agree about Jowan. The chantry and circle are not blameless in his decisions after all. I keep thinking what if someone wanted to take my personality away, and kill me inside. I don't know what lengths I would go through to avoid that.

As for Isolde and taking away Connor's mom - I just have to remember the little boy in the Chantry who keeps asking for Mommy and Daddy, and being told 'they went on a long trip'. And Bevin and Kaitlyn, and the injured little girl in the chantry, and I'm alright with allowing Isolde to become a hero for her son and the Arling.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Sabriana wrote...

I agree about Jowan. The chantry and circle are not blameless in his decisions after all. I keep thinking what if someone wanted to take my personality away, and kill me inside. I don't know what lengths I would go through to avoid that.

As for Isolde and taking away Connor's mom - I just have to remember the little boy in the Chantry who keeps asking for Mommy and Daddy, and being told 'they went on a long trip'. And Bevin and Kaitlyn, and the injured little girl in the chantry, and I'm alright with allowing Isolde to become a hero for her son and the Arling.

I agree. Jowan was desperate, and had no allies in his corner to help him. Both irving and Gregoir were out to get him, other than the PC, it's unlikely he had any other friends. I imagine he ended up turning to blood magic to give him some edge to surviving in the tower. And at the end of the mage origin, it seems he committed all this foolishness in the name of love, as he wanted more than anything to have a life with Lily. When my mage ran into him in redcliffe, one of the first things he asked about was what happened to Lily, and when you tell him, he just seems to drain even more, and feels guilt because her fate was his fault.

Maybe it's because of all the orphans I see in game makes me even more reluctant to make another. Especially that poor kid, Iona's daughter, in the alienage. I so wish my human noble, who knew why mommy wasn't coming back, could have either given her some money or found some elves to take her in.

[sylvanaerie]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Sabriana wrote...

I agree about Jowan. The chantry and circle are not blameless in his decisions after all. I keep thinking what if someone wanted to take my personality away, and kill me inside. I don't know what lengths I would go through to avoid that.

As for Isolde and taking away Connor's mom - I just have to remember the little boy in the Chantry who keeps asking for Mommy and Daddy, and being told 'they went on a long trip'. And Bevin and Kaitlyn, and the injured little girl in the chantry, and I'm alright with allowing Isolde to become a hero for her son and the Arling.

I agree. Jowan was desperate, and had no allies in his corner to help him. Both irving and Gregoir were out to get him, other than the PC, it's unlikely he had any other friends. I imagine he ended up turning to blood magic to give him some edge to surviving in the tower. And at the end of the mage origin, it seems he committed all this foolishness in the name of love, as he wanted more than anything to have a life with Lily. When my mage ran into him in redcliffe, one of the first things he asked about was what happened to Lily, and when you tell him, he just seems to drain even more, and feels guilt because her fate was his fault.

Maybe it's because of all the orphans I see in game makes me even more reluctant to make another. Especially that poor kid, Iona's daughter, in the alienage. I so wish my human noble, who knew why mommy wasn't coming back, could have either given her some money or found some elves to take her in.

Yea on my last mage playthrough I kept talking to Jowan and the option came to (lie) Lily is fine.  I took it.  I just didn't have the heart to tell him and really I DIDN"T know for sure that she wasn't just fine.  And I wish I could do something for that little girl in the Alienage, even give her some coins.  I didn't even know who she was till a recent game where I actually found Iona and Dairren and talked to them.

[Sabriana]

You have a point, Skadi. But I see it more from the standpoint that Isolde did not see what she did to the castle and the village until Teagan pushed her nose into it, and told her that it was all her fault to begin with, not Jowan's. She did a lot of harm. She wasn't any run-in-the-mill woman, she was the arlessa. Those people were under her and Eamon's care, and she killed so many of them with her actions.

When my PC asked her "are you sure you want to die?"  she answers with ".... and it is a way to make up for what I've done." At than point, my PC regains a little respect for her.

But I can see you pov as well. Ack! Amethyne. Oh how angry I was that there was nothing I could do for the little girl. My HN never bedded her mother, even though she swings both ways, but they had a nice chat with her, and they all liked her a lot. What a bummer that was. Why couldn't they give Shianni, or any other trustworthy elf money to take care of Amethyne?

There's also one major factor that dooms Isolde, and it has to do with the romance interest my PCs favor. All my girls go for Zevran, and he absolutely has to be in the fade, the gauntlet, the forest, and Orzammar with them. He gives far too much insight into his character in these locations. I so wish they could get him after Lothering. That soldier they gave the message to deliver to Loghain could trigger it. Oh, all the questions...!!

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Oh, I am not opposed to people who do decide to let Isolde do the sacrifice. I even think it's the more fitting solution, since she brought all this horror on her son, her husband, and the people of redcliffe through selfish stupidity and pride tinged with a warped feeling of maternal protectiveness. And certainly, it is the less guilt wracking of the two immediate choices, since it's not Connor's fault.



I just hate doing it from a heart-over-head wins out thing. I've tried it a few times to give a realistic feel for the game, but found I just couldn't continue on and had to re-load and go see the Circle. I'd make a horrible Warden in real life. I think one reason being my own mom died a couple years ago. (She was nothing like Isolde, thank the Maker). Even in a pixelated world, I still can't kill someone's mommy on purpose, as much as I hate the sniveling cow and she totally deserves it. I wish I could get the pleasure of punching her in the face without having to kill Connor, purely on the basis of what she's done. I certainly do not think killing Isolde as an "evil" or heartless choice, and from an RP perspective, there are tons of very good reasons to do it and not feel like a horrible person for doing so. I'm just too weak.



I think the majority of people really wanted to help that poor kid in the alienage, especially as a human noble. My noble didn't bed Iona, she was promiscuous but pretty much hetero. She still spoke to Iona, and found it sad that the best she could hope for her daughter was to be a high ranked servant of some noble. The kid's little cries in the alienage (when's mommy coming back from Highever? Where's mommy?), as she sits there in a ghetto wracked with plague and slavers...got, that was one of the most heart wrenching moments for me, because I just had to leave her there. *sniff*



Zevran has the most realistic outlook and insight into people of all the companions. I agree on wishing you could get Zev earlier, since you end up having to do one treaty quest without him, and lose out on alot of cool and interesting dialogue.



@sylvanaire: I haven't lied to Jowan about lily yet, maybe I might in a later playthrough, if nothing else, to save him some grief. he's already pretty crushed with guilt over what has happened, i suppose it's kinder to let him believe that he at least didn't ruin the life of the woman he loved and risked everything for. What's sad about that, is he feels horrible for hurting her as well, and isn't mad at her when she told him to ****** off in the mage origin after discovering his blood magic. he understood and accepted her anger.



I really wish Bioware had let us conscript him as a party member. I'd so much rather recruit him than Wynne, and, as a companion, I think he had the potential to add alot to the game through his own perceptions, experience, and personal quests (a fitting personal quest being rescuing Lily). Jowan is probably my favorite origin based character and temporary companion (Gorim a close second).

[Sabriana]

I agree again (stop doing that to me, Skadi).

Jowan would have made a better companion than Wynne. It would also make more sense. Wynne is a senior enchanter, and much needed at the circle, Jowan has nothing left to lose.



I also have never fibbed about Lily, Sylvanaire, and I will definitely try it. True enough, he's had so little joy in his life and so much misery, he deserves at least some peace of mind.

[Cuddlezarro]

Wynne is a senior enchanter, and much needed at the circle,

not according to her! every mage in thedas including the grey warden mage should stay at the circle...except her she gets to go out adventuring and gallivanting off to tevinter

[Sabriana]

But it makes no sense. She's all over my PC with "Grey Wardens are the be-all and end-all". Why would she want to cut the GW force of all of Ferelden in half in the middle of a rassafrassin Blight, by trying to entice the leader back into the prison....ah, tower? I need some time to wrap my mind around that one.

Maybe you're all lying to me and are currently pointing and laughing.

Actually that would make more sense...

[Creature 1]

Sabriana wrote...

But it makes no sense. She's all over my PC with "Grey Wardens are the be-all and end-all". Why would she want to cut the GW force of all of Ferelden in half in the middle of a rassafrassin Blight, by trying to entice the leader back into the prison....ah, tower? I need some time to wrap my mind around that one.

I always figured she meant after the Archdemon was killed. 

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Mybe, but even then, Ferelden is still in need of someone to rebuild the grey wardens, a far more important task than adding another slave to the Circle. If you made Alistair king and returned to the circle, that meakes no one to rebuild, until Wardens arrived from another country. You would serve a far greater purpose and good remaining with the Wardens than returning to the Circle, which is only one small and very isolated part of ferelden, outside of normal society and contributing very little to it. If you recruited Loghain and he survives, ordidn't make Alistair king and he survives, it still leaves only one person to rebuild the Wardens. It is a rather short sighted silly suggestion on Wynne's part. The Circle trumps all, even the greater good of Ferelden.



back to Jowan. I usually prefer to allow Eamon the option of executing him, as opposed to giving him back to the Circle. The Circle has already ruined much of his life, I don't feel like giving them the privilage of ending it. And, given that Cullen is back at the circle seething with serious mage issues, I wouldn't trust them to actually give him a clean, dignified execution. He deserves that, at the very least.



If they didn't execute him, they would make him tranquil in the Circle, which would be, the worst punishment, in my opinion. In the end, after all he tried to do, the Circle would win, and he'd live out his life as a lobotomized slave to the same people that pushed him there. So I let Eamon do the job, to keep the Circle's mits off of him.

[Creature 1]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Mybe, but even then, Ferelden is still in need of someone to rebuild the grey wardens, a far more important task than adding another slave to the Circle. If you made Alistair king and returned to the circle, that meakes no one to rebuild, until Wardens arrived from another country. You would serve a far greater purpose and good remaining with the Wardens than returning to the Circle, which is only one small and very isolated part of ferelden, outside of normal society and contributing very little to it.

My characters think the Wardens can shove it.  From their point of view all they're good for is killing Archdemons, and another one of those isn't likely to show up in their lifetime.  They have no problem with heading out to parts unknown and leaving the Orlesian Gray Wardens to sort things out. 

[Reaverwind]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Mybe, but even then, Ferelden is still in need of someone to rebuild the grey wardens, a far more important task than adding another slave to the Circle. If you made Alistair king and returned to the circle, that meakes no one to rebuild, until Wardens arrived from another country. You would serve a far greater purpose and good remaining with the Wardens than returning to the Circle, which is only one small and very isolated part of ferelden, outside of normal society and contributing very little to it. If you recruited Loghain and he survives, ordidn't make Alistair king and he survives, it still leaves only one person to rebuild the Wardens. It is a rather short sighted silly suggestion on Wynne's part. The Circle trumps all, even the greater good of Ferelden.

Let's not forget you can't just stop being a Grey Warden, thanks to the Joining. If you question Riordan's suggestion to make Loghain a Warden, he'll tell you as much. I'd like to see how well the Templars handle the Warden's need to go Darkspawn-hunting, or Maker forbid, darkspawn invading the tower to hunt the Warden.

Modifié par Reaverwind, 19 février 2010 - 08:31 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Some characters of mine didn't really care much for being a Warden, and yes, felt they could shove it. others became dedicated to it. but Wynne's suggestion flies in the face of her constantly preaching what a great duty it is to be a Warden, how it will be what you are for life and your responsibility to live up to it. Then she says, to your mage, about how you should return to the Circle and help run it, blah blah blah. She expects you to give up love and personal desires in your duty as a Warden, then turns around and thinks your mage should return to the Circle instead. What about being a Warden my most imortant duty to mankind? The Circle won't collapse or die because my mage doesn't return, and if it did, not many people would really care, since the Circle exists outside of society and politics.



yeah reaver. Whether you stay in the order or tell them to shove off, you are always a Warden no matter what road you want to take, and in the end, the taint will call you to. it is not something that can simply be shrugged off once the Blight is done. Some characters went off elsewhere, maybe looking for a cure to their taint, some stayed active Wardens to rebuild. The fact is, not returning to the circle, regardless of what ending you choose, gives you the option to do more good (or bad) in the world as Warden commander, chancellor to Alistair or Anora to help run the kingdom, or ruler of your own Teyrnir. Isn't that what Wynne is always preaching about: putting the wellbeing of world before you?

[Kryyptehk]

I know most people hate Isolde and end up killing her, but I never could, because of Connor. He wakes up from being possessed and finds out that his mother was killed in order to save him and he will lose his father later on by being sent to the tower. That boy would have so many psychosis issues that I'd be surprised if that didn't make him tranquil as soon as he entered the tower.



Killing Isolde is incredibly unfair to Connor, if you are trying to be good. The child should not be punished for what the parent does.

[sylvanaerie]

Yea I really used to dislike Jowan but having played a couple mages now I don't hate him so much as I used to. My girls are usually Circle mages through and through (I always run to Irving and tell him) but that has a sort of RP reason for me. Shes been "indoctrinated" since she was very very young and most likely shes what 18? 19? She hasn't seen enough of the world prior to leaving the Circle to form much opinion about things on her own.



Shes probably closest to an Aequitarian by the end of the game having traveled seen the world and saved it from the Blight. She feels that mages need some kind of watch-dog (though not psychos like Cullen) because if anything that situation at the tower is a prime example. But why not have the mages watch EACH other. Seems to me the templars did a really crappy job dealing with that.



I wish now that I understand him better I could have done more to help Jowan. I don't like either choice in the origin story. I usually send him back to the Circle cause I just can't bear to hear them order him off to be executed. At that point though he just seems relieved its finally over. And he even calls you "Friend" when he is taken away.



I always tear up when I see him in the Gauntlet now and he says how proud he is your PC is the mage he will never be. (Most of the spirits make me tear up, Bryce is the most emotional for me though).

[Reaverwind]

sylvanaerie wrote...

I wish now that I understand him better I could have done more to help Jowan. I don't like either choice in the origin story. I usually send him back to the Circle cause I just can't bear to hear them order him off to be executed. At that point though he just seems relieved its finally over. And he even calls you "Friend" when he is taken away.

I always tear up when I see him in the Gauntlet now and he says how proud he is your PC is the mage he will never be. (Most of the spirits make me tear up, Bryce is the most emotional for me though).

I really hate the rail-roading in the Mage origin - you can choose to either be a back-stabbing snitch or a moronic idiot. Seriously, that Origin needed an option C. Jowan I'm so-so about. You gain some insight you wouldn't otherwise if you obtain Teagan's permission to execute Jowan and then question him on why he dabbled in blood magic. Turns out it wasn't to escape the Circle.

[sylvanaerie]

Reaverwind wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

I wish now that I understand him better I could have done more to help Jowan. I don't like either choice in the origin story. I usually send him back to the Circle cause I just can't bear to hear them order him off to be executed. At that point though he just seems relieved its finally over. And he even calls you "Friend" when he is taken away.

I always tear up when I see him in the Gauntlet now and he says how proud he is your PC is the mage he will never be. (Most of the spirits make me tear up, Bryce is the most emotional for me though).

I really hate the rail-roading in the Mage origin - you can choose to either be a back-stabbing snitch or a moronic idiot. Seriously, that Origin needed an option C. Jowan I'm so-so about. You gain some insight you wouldn't otherwise if you obtain Teagan's permission to execute Jowan and then question him on why he dabbled in blood magic. Turns out it wasn't to escape the Circle.

I still have several saves, esp one right after Connor was saved and you are in the Arl's room with Teagan and Isolde? is that the point you mean?  I would love to see what Jowan has to say.

[Reaverwind]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

I wish now that I understand him better I could have done more to help Jowan. I don't like either choice in the origin story. I usually send him back to the Circle cause I just can't bear to hear them order him off to be executed. At that point though he just seems relieved its finally over. And he even calls you "Friend" when he is taken away.

I always tear up when I see him in the Gauntlet now and he says how proud he is your PC is the mage he will never be. (Most of the spirits make me tear up, Bryce is the most emotional for me though).

I really hate the rail-roading in the Mage origin - you can choose to either be a back-stabbing snitch or a moronic idiot. Seriously, that Origin needed an option C. Jowan I'm so-so about. You gain some insight you wouldn't otherwise if you obtain Teagan's permission to execute Jowan and then question him on why he dabbled in blood magic. Turns out it wasn't to escape the Circle.

I still have several saves, esp one right after Connor was saved and you are in the Arl's room with Teagan and Isolde? is that the point you mean?  I would love to see what Jowan has to say.

I don't know if the option will still be available at that point, but right after saving Connor, Teagan asks for your opinion on what to do with Jowan - tell him he should be executed and then ask to do it yourself.

[sylvanaerie]

Thanks Reaver, will go check that out later!

[Gold Dragon]

And even when you send him (Jowan) off to be executed, he will still call you friend.

[sylvanaerie]

Yea...WOW that was...incredible. The writers on this game really earned their paychecks. I just ran through the scene on my Mage playthrough.



Also, if you intimidate the demon and let her think she's gonna get off scot free, then rescind it and attack her anyway, it makes for a more dramatic confrontation (I like to try different options when I can to see what happens).



Jowan was a lot more complex than I gave him credit for. Thank you, Bioware.