79 réponses à ce sujet

[HTTP 404]

thanks for the tips Mordigan. Ill give shotguns a shot again and I will try out the claymore plus headshot plus reload trick. I been suceeding pretty well with the smg and Im not struggling at all with how Im playing just lamenting on how disappointing shottys are. So I definitely disagree with you that I am doing something wrong, its just different way of playing and thats without using the shotgun...

[vhatever]

I'm not sure exploiting a bug is much of a "tip". Different strokes, I guess.

[HTTP 404]

Well Ill give it a shot and if I dont like it Ill go back to the smg as primary for my vangaurd.

[Amioran]

Mordigan wrote...

I charge all the time, regardless of how many enemies there are on the battlefield.  Whether I charge or not is determined by the position of the enemy, and not how many there are..

Yes, and you use a trick to reload faster, than it is the same as modding the game as I did. Enemy position is fine and good but against two or more enemies in Insanity with a lower RoF on the Shotgun you are dead in seconds.

Actually, if you use the reload trick, then you can survive charging into a mob.....but only on normal or veteran difficulty.  On insanity, you'd be killed because the extra damage they inflict just cuts through your enhanced shields.

Were we talking about veteran or normal? Didn't seem to me, isn't it? So pleas stop making examples on things completely different just to try to have a point you don't have.
 

I've tried the SMG at close range just for kicks, and it definitely doesn't kill the enemy faster than the Claymore.  How could it?  The Claymore's base damage is 400, and in melee range, it doubles to 800, which is enough to kill most enemies with only one shot.....even on insanity.

Again, you are using a TRICK that let's you reload much faster. If you don't use it the RoF per shot damage of the SMG is much higher (in total) than the damage you can do with a Shotgun. You know, matematic is not an opinion, and while you reload the other guys are pummelling you to no end, while with the SMG you can at last reiterate with Incinerate rounds to panic them and give you time.

I've played with all of the shotguns, and at no time did I ever feel they are underpowered.  If you feel the ROF is a hindrance, then use the Scimitar and not the Claymore.

Of course you didn't see them underpowered, you use a trick to let them reload faster. Use them WITHOUT the reload trick then please try to argue on something that has a point instead of saying bull****s. Also in my modded game shotguns are perfectly fine, does it mean that they are also in vanilla? Let's be serious please. If you for a shotgun to reload while you are at close range against more than one enemy in insanity you are dead BEFORE you can either reload, and this is a FACT, no matter how much you try to change it.

The game isn't that complex I agree, but if someone's experiences are that much different than mine, then something must obviously be amiss.

The only thing amiss here is the fact that you use a trick as evidence as the proper use of a gun and this is competely nonsensical. Just that you are there make examples on GOD mode and how powerful shotguns are there.

I mean, the OP said,"in ME2 It takes several shots to take down a regular opponent" something which I know to be completely false if you use the Claymore.

It's not false, it depends on the range, that, again, is not dependent on the gun.

Modifié par Amioran, 21 février 2010 - 10:20 .

[tthammy]

i play vanguard on insanity with claymore . just shoot til shields down use pull then finish of

[Amioran]

Mordigan wrote...

Shotguns fire 8 pellets, as verified by Christina in this thread, so it's 8x50.1 for the Claymore, and 36.8x3 for the Vindicator.

In theory, in practice doesn't work quite that way since shots are distrubuted on body parts, and it depends on enemy position. Of the 8 pellets you are lucky if all the time at point blank range 3 shots reachs the target COMPLETELY.

Using a shotgun at point blank range is a very good idea against single, large mass enemies, on all other cases, either at that range it's better to use an SMG (damage wise) with AP or Inferno rounds in Insanity or Hardcore, in vanilla (naturally tricks are NO evidence of anything at all).

Just changing the RoF of the shotgun increases its damage potential exponentially, much more than pellets numbers, a thing you are naturally doing with your trick. Actually just a .5 second lower RoF means almost triple damage for a shotgun than its normal status.

As I said the best way to change the play of a Vanguard is just decreasing reloading time of the shotgun and giving it different close range damage numbers. This simple change alone completely change (in better) the Vanguard on Insanity difficulty.

Modifié par Amioran, 21 février 2010 - 10:35 .

[rumination888]

Animation transitioning into another animation once the former animation is 60% complete is by design.
You can reload and transition into cover once the reload animation is 60% complete. You can melee and transition into something else, you can cast a power and transition into something else, etc. etc.

The Claymore was designed for players with more gaming skills. Basically, higher reward for those with higher skill.

[HeavyTankZA]

i like the shotguns, the Eviscerator has a nice punch to it and the Scimitar great RoF and ammo, although once i picked up the Claymore it works quite well, ammo is a problem seeing it's one shot only but with Tungsten Ammo, it works a charm

[vhatever]

Uhh, you are skipping 40% of the reload animation and 100% of the melee animation. A bug. Pretty simple.

[Mordigan]

Amioran wrote...

Yes, and you use a trick to reload faster, than it is the same as modding the game as I did. Enemy position is fine and good but against two or more enemies in Insanity with a lower RoF on the Shotgun you are dead in seconds.

You can survive charging against 2 or more enemies, even without the reload trick, depending on how powerful the enemies are, and whether there is any cover available near the point of impact.  If the enemies can be one shotted, you can shoot one upon charge and take cover since the AI isn't exactly very bright, then wait for charge to cooldown and charge the second enemy..

And if you use the Scimitar or Katana, then ROF is hardly an issue.

Were we talking about veteran or normal? Didn't seem to me, isn't it? So pleas stop making examples on things completely different just to try to have a point you don't have.

You're a bit anal retentive, anyone ever tell you that?  

Irregardless, difficult settings have a lot to do with this conversation since the weapons themselves are balanced against enemies on normal difficulty.
 
Playing on insanity however, means the weapons are no longer balanced so you have to find new and creative ways to go about your business, like using melee in between shots.

So basically complaining about the efficacy of the shotguns on insanity is ridiculous, because the game is no longer balanced.

Again, you are using a TRICK that let's you reload much faster. If you don't use it the RoF per shot damage of the SMG is much higher (in total) than the damage you can do with a Shotgun. You know, matematic is not an opinion, and while you reload the other guys are pummelling you to no end, while with the SMG you can at last reiterate with Incinerate rounds to panic them and give you time.

Are you blind?  I said that the Claymore ONE SHOTS most enemies on insanity!  The reload trick has nothing to do with this..   

For elite mobs/bosses that require more than one shot, you shoot, melee and shoot again, which is still much faster than using the SMG.....especially if the enemy has armor.

Generally speaking, burst damage weapons like the shotgun are always going to be much better than sustained damage weapons in close quarters, because of the 2x damage bonus. 

I suggest you actually try using both weapons so you can have practical knowledge, rather than spout off to me about "matematics."
 

Of course you didn't see them underpowered, you use a trick to let them reload faster. Use them WITHOUT the reload trick then please try to argue on something that has a point instead of saying bull****s. Also in my modded game shotguns are perfectly fine, does it mean that they are also in vanilla? Let's be serious please. If you for a shotgun to reload while you are at close range against more than one enemy in insanity you are dead BEFORE you can either reload, and this is a FACT, no matter how much you try to change it.

God, you really are hung up on this "trick" aren't you.....which I find quite odd since your game is hacked

For your information, the "trick" only helps the Claymore, since it needs to reload after every shot. 

For the Scimitar, Evi and Katana, the trick isn't very helpful at all since you can fire multiple times without reloading..

And if you die due to reloading, it's because you haven't acquainted yourself with MELEE.

In fact, I only recently found out about the reload trick, so before I was using the melee button to offset the reload penalty and I had no problems at all..

The only thing amiss here is the fact that you use a trick as evidence as the proper use of a gun and this is competely nonsensical. Just that you are there make examples on GOD mode and how powerful shotguns are there.

It's not my fault you suck with shotguns, so don't take your angst out on me

And for the last time, I only recently found out about the trick myself, and before, I was using melee blows in between reloads, and that tactic worked just fine as well so you don't need to use the reload trick for the Claymore to be effective.

Also, the other three shotguns don't benefit from the melee trick at all..

It's not false, it depends on the range, that, again, is not dependent on the gun.

Shotguns are designed to be used in close quarters.  If someone uses Shotguns like they are Assault rifles, then they deserve to die due to their stupidity.

[rumination888]

You aren't skipping any part of the melee animation at all. No idea why you would even get that idea in the first place If you actually put some thought into it, you'd realize you can't double melee doing that trick.

And if you actually played ME2, you'd realize firing a gun is instant. There is no animation that needs to end before you can move on to something else.

[Mordigan]

Amioran wrote...

In theory, in practice doesn't work quite that way since shots are distrubuted on body parts, and it depends on enemy position. Of the 8 pellets you are lucky if all the time at point blank range 3 shots reachs the target COMPLETELY.

You must really, REALLY suck if you can't get a clean shot at point blank range with a shotgun

Using a shotgun at point blank range is a very good idea against single, large mass enemies, on all other cases, either at that range it's better to use an SMG (damage wise) with AP or Inferno rounds in Insanity or Hardcore, in vanilla (naturally tricks are NO evidence of anything at all).

If you say so..

Just changing the RoF of the shotgun increases its damage potential exponentially, much more than pellets numbers, a thing you are naturally doing with your trick. Actually just a .5 second lower RoF means almost triple damage for a shotgun than its normal status.

I find it humorous that you keep railing on about me using a "trick" when you hacked the f*cking game..

As I said the best way to change the play of a Vanguard is just decreasing reloading time of the shotgun and giving it different close range damage numbers. This simple change alone completely change (in better) the Vanguard on Insanity difficulty.

Well fine then, if that works for you thats great since you're obviously not a very skillful player and need to resort to using hacks..

But don't lecture me, or others about how the Shotgun sucks when it's YOU that sucks, since myself and plenty of others are having no difficulty with the Shotgun on insanity...  

[vhatever]

rumination888 wrote...

You aren't skipping any part of the melee animation at all. No idea why you would even get that idea in the first place If you actually put some thought into it, you'd realize you can't double melee doing that trick.

And if you actually played ME2, you'd realize firing a gun is instant. There is no animation that needs to end before you can move on to something else.

Yes, your bullet entirely skips the melee animatiion you use abuse the bug. Noramlly you haveto WAIT to shoot after a melee attack. You either don't know wtf you are talking about, or you are just really, really dumb.

[Spinnazie]

Dethateer wrote...

Use the Eviscerator.

^ this

[FiOth]

Shotguns have been nerfed in ME2, something I don't like either. Having to pump 3-4 shots into an enemy on Hardcore seems imbalanced to me and its the same even with the Eviscerator. A shotgun is supposed to be a fast killer up close but nope.



They still have their uses but usefulness has be restricted since the first game imo.

[HTTP 404]

the claymore worked out pretty well for me, finished my game off with it. Works extremely well with timed charges and does decent damage if a melee combo in the end. some tougher enemies I charged, melee'd, shotgunned to head, then meleed to finish. I used the shotty with inferno ammo cant say if it was better than tungsten but I used it because i wanted squad cyro for my teammates. I didnt notice the bug if it was working for me but it worked out just fine. The only time I used SMGs exclusively was with husks but I used squad cyro ammo and my high melee damage did the trick.



Thanks again Mordigan you are right in my book but dont let it go to your head.

[AlphaJarmel]

Wait so the Claymore has the highest base power?

[Vaeliorin]

rumination888 wrote...
The Claymore was designed for players with more gaming skills. Basically, higher reward for those with higher skill.

I don't know about that.  I have terrible gaming skills when it comes to twitch gaming, and I just finished a Vanguard playthrough on hardcore using the Claymore from the first instant I could pick it up.  I also didn't use the reload trick.

Anyway the Claymore is way better for charging than the SMGs.  You can dump a whole SMG clip into enemies and not kill them, but the Claymore will 1-shot them.

That said, I want an AA-12 (or the futuristic equivalent) in ME3 (or as DLC.)  Dumping 20 shotgun rounds into the enemy in under 4 seconds would be awesome.

[HTTP 404]

Vaeliorin wrote...

rumination888 wrote...
The Claymore was designed for players with more gaming skills. Basically, higher reward for those with higher skill.

I don't know about that.  I have terrible gaming skills when it comes to twitch gaming, and I just finished a Vanguard playthrough on hardcore using the Claymore from the first instant I could pick it up.  I also didn't use the reload trick.

Anyway the Claymore is way better for charging than the SMGs.  You can dump a whole SMG clip into enemies and not kill them, but the Claymore will 1-shot them.

That said, I want an AA-12 (or the futuristic equivalent) in ME3 (or as DLC.)  Dumping 20 shotgun rounds into the enemy in under 4 seconds would be awesome.

I could see that, it would definitely be underpowered but can carry more ammo and have same range as the eviscerator.  Or they could have it as a heavy weapon with high power/low ammo/solid range but that would be redundant as having two shotguns.  Any way the Claymore worked just fine, coulda used a smidget more damage on it on insanity but whatever it was a fun gun to use albiet towards the end of my game.  It took me awhile to get used to it at first.

[Schneidend]

vhatever wrote...

Yes, your bullet entirely skips the melee animatiion you use abuse the bug. Noramlly you haveto WAIT to shoot after a melee attack. You either don't know wtf you are talking about, or you are just really, really dumb.

I'm not really sure what your issue is with the reload trick, vhatever, aside from your usual issue with just about everything. I didn't even know about the trick until after I'd stopped playing for tonight and was looking up vids on Vanguard play. I haven't tried it myself, and it does seem a little strange, but if Christina Norman is willing to tell us about it as a "tip" then I believe it's working as intended. A "bug" implies that something is unintentional.

I kind of think of it like a combo in certain fighting games. In games like Street Fighter III you can "cancel" moves and go right into a super move, like performing a low kick and going right into a Super Dragon Punch. SHORYU-REPPA!!!

Anyway, as to the shotgun category itself, I like it quite a bit. They're really meant for classes that can get in close in relative safety, though. Vanguards have Heavy Charge, making them the unquestioned shotgun/melee masters. Soldiers have the versatile Adrenaline Rush which just makes any weapon that much more effective. Sentinels of course have their badass Tech Armor which works great in a close quarters style thanks to the explosion. Even Infiltrators can get in on the shotgun goodness with some Tactical Shotgun Espionage Action. Adepts and Engineers, eh, well, actually a Singularity-stunned Harbinger would be pretty susceptible to a Heavy Warp Ammo'd Eviscerator. So, really, the Engineer is the only one I don't think the shotgun would be really viable for.

Modifié par Schneidend, 22 février 2010 - 09:09 .

[HTTP 404]

Schneidend wrote...

vhatever wrote...

Yes, your bullet entirely skips the melee animatiion you use abuse the bug. Noramlly you haveto WAIT to shoot after a melee attack. You either don't know wtf you are talking about, or you are just really, really dumb.

I'm not really sure what your issue is with the reload trick, vhatever, aside from your usual issue with just about everything. I didn't even know about the trick until after I'd stopped playing for tonight and was looking up vids on Vanguard play. I haven't tried it myself, and it does seem a little strange, but if Christina Norman is willing to tell us about it as a "tip" then I believe it's working as intended. A "bug" implies that something is unintentional.

I kind of think of it like a combo in certain fighting games. In games like Street Fighter III you can "cancel" moves and go right into a super move, like performing a low kick and going right into a Super Dragon Punch. SHORYU-REPPA!!!

Anyway, as to the shotgun category itself, I like it quite a bit. They're really meant for classes that can get in close in relative safety, though. Vanguards have Heavy Charge, making them the unquestioned shotgun/melee masters. Soldiers have the versatile Adrenaline Rush which just makes any weapon that much more effective. Sentinels of course have their badass Tech Armor which works great in a close quarters style thanks to the explosion. Even Infiltrators can get in on the shotgun goodness with some Tactical Shotgun Espionage Action. Adepts and Engineers, eh, well, actually a Singularity-stunned Harbinger would be pretty susceptible to a Heavy Warp Ammo'd Eviscerator. So, really, the Engineer is the only one I don't think the shotgun would be really viable for.

I can definitely see its uses for Vangaurd.  It just isnt all that "awesome" with soldier or sentinal.  I would love to see more stopping power even if damage isnt increased for at least one of the shottys (maybe eviscerator?)  It would change gameplay and strategy up with the soldier at least because they got a slew of other weapons to use instead.

[Schneidend]

More stopping power? A pointblank shot from the Claymore can already instantly kill mook-level enemies like Collector Drones and Blue Suns Troopers. The Eviscerator can do the same as long as you get a headshot. How much more stopping power do you need?

[HTTP 404]

Schneidend wrote...

More stopping power? A pointblank shot from the Claymore can already instantly kill mook-level enemies like Collector Drones and Blue Suns Troopers. The Eviscerator can do the same as long as you get a headshot. How much more stopping power do you need?

you dont have the luxury of having pointblank shots with soldier on insanity.  I have no problem with pointblank damage with shotguns.  If you read my previous post I said shotguns work great with vangaurds and I enjoyed using it with mine.  With my soldier there's almost no point in using shotguns.  A little more stopping power would be nice with the range eviscerator has or medium range of the other shotguns minus the Claymore, the only shotgun that doesnt need to be changed imo.  It would make for better strategy if being overwhelmed as a soldier to use the shotgun on incoming enemies to buy time to either further kill them or use teammates to use powers on charging enemies.  I am in no shape and form dissing/hate the shotty if you like it, I just would like more practical use with soldiers and maybe other classes besides the Vangaurd.

[addiction21]

Well the solider does have a lot more options for long distance shooting then the vanguard (the only two class's I believe that have the shotgun as a defualt weapon skill) so I do not see how pumping up the damage would help. Anyone that gets that close to a solider should allready be shot up a little then you can just pop adreneline rush and get 2 clear shotgun blasts. That should be more then enough to drop anything.

[Thompson family]

Frankly, "concussive shot" does what I want a shotgun to do, only better — knock the intended target flat on his can so I can kill another target, then go back and finish him.