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[this isnt my name]

anmiro wrote...

this isnt my name wrote...

Varenus Luckmann wrote...

this isnt my name wrote...

Varenus Luckmann wrote...

I would've loved a Batarian squad member, actually. We recruit all kinds of people, based on them being the best. Many occupy a shade of grey. Samara is hardly a Paladin, but is very cold and calculating in her code. Thane is a gun for hire that no doubt have killed many that were, in the end, innocent on one level or another. Garrus is a vigilante, even if he is a noble one. Mordin engineered the Genophage. Others are much more noble, such as Tali.

I would've loved a Batarian that goes against the general perception of Batarians. They aren't all terrorists and slavers, I'm sure.

Zaeed should've been a Batarian (and had proper dialogue).

But Mordin is noble, he feels bad about the genophage, but still did what he had to to save people, that makesw him one of the best characters in game IMO.

I completely agree. I really like Mordin. He believes what he did was the best solution for all, including the krogans. Thane is also a honourable character, who consider himself not a murderer, but a weapon in the hands of whomever uses him. Samara is to many, no doubt, a paragon of goodness and justice in the universe, despite her cold attitude. Jack is a violent murderer, but in the end she's just a damaged child.

My entire point was "shades of grey". None of these people are truly evil, just like none of them are truly good. No matter how alien, they are all victims to the human condition - and I'd like a Batarian squadmate that is just the same. I loved the suggestion of Beechwell.

A "good" character that defends slavery.

Im not saying you didnt like them im just saying that personally Mordin is more noble than Tali, as she still complains about loosing her homeworld after trying to wipe out the geth, hardly noble if you try yo attack someone and they hit back, then act like the victim.

Tali, was born and grew up on a ship. She didn't create the Geth and then try to kill them when they became self-aware, she wasn't alive yet. Tali and her people are suffering for an offense that non of them were alive to give. As ME2 has pointed out, there are a considerable amount of Quarian's who recognize the mistake of their Ancestor's. Tali's father was not one of these people. You can say that Tali is no different than her father, but that would be a disservice to complexity of Tali's character. In ME2 Tali is confronted with the fact that everything her father has taught her may be wrong. 

Also, since that was way off topic, I'll add this.

The only good Batarian is dead Batarian.

Ther arent suffering for their ancestors mistakes, they are still trying to attack the geth, repeating their ancestors mistakes and having the same outcome, if the quarians accept what they did was wrong and make peace with the geth (who would likely accept) they could go back to their homeworld. However it seems they would rather die, so its only them who I am going to blame, they can end everything if they want, but they wont.

I agree with you about the bartarian, I also agree with Zaeed.

Modifié par this isnt my name, 19 février 2010 - 04:23 .

[VanTesla]

Love all aliens except those D-bags...... They can all burn and die!

[Varenus Luckmann]

Beechwell wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
Sure, as long as my ruthless colonist Shepard can deal with that character the same way he dealt with Balak's croney who was making excuses about "this was only supposed to be a simple slave grab.."

I'm fine with that. After all you also have to option to hand over Legion to some Cerberus lab, or kill Wrex when he disobeys your command. And I can see the attraction in role playing a Shepard with an irrational hatred for Batarians (although it would be nice to grow such a Shepard into a grudging acceptance of their people as well).

You can have your irrational hatred for Batarians when I can have my irrational hatred for Cerberus.

No, seriously though, I agree. Batarians have been involved in some pretty nasty stuff and I can see Shepard despising them, although realisticly not more than Cerberus (which we are forced to work for). I like playing my Shepard with distinct flaws, such as how my Adept Shepard (Julian Shepard) is a near-paragon in almost all matters, except betrayal or corruption. A Colonist/War Hero for example, could have huge problems with Batarians.

Given the "Good Batarian that defends slavery" option, what would we make him? I'm thinking something Engineer-y in character, but Commandoish when it comes to combat role. Incendiary Ammo, Incinerate, Batarian Spacer (Evolves; Batarian Rogue/Batarian Scoundrel). A homing tech-grenade that acts in the same manner as Warp when thrown (can be thrown "around corners"), that explodes on impact (knocking surrounding enemies out of cover and doing AoE damage) as a bonus skill. Evolved versions have a greater explosion radius (knocking over more enemies) and adds fire damage (DoT, bonus damage to armor) respectively.

[marshalleck]

Madecologist wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

I realize that some people like to play a perfect saint, and I think your Shepard would have to be bordering on Christ-like to not be more than slightly irked in that situation.

True, but slightly irked does not mean you kill them or turn down potential help. There is different ways to express any sentiment. Heck even outright hate might not mean you will killing them, under the right circumstance even cooperate.

Case and point. Tali and Legion.

Tali and Legion would have ended badly had Shepard not intervened.

I'm not saying they shouldn't add a batarian character. If that batarian starts telling my Shepard that slavery is acceptable and the people killed in slaver raids are necessary casualties, I want my Shepard to be able to make said batarian eat a bullet.

Now, a batarian who doesn't overtly advocate or defend slavery and banditry would challenge that Shepard's views and force him to confront his biases. Since practically every batarian we meet is at the very least prejudiced against humans, if not outright completely hostile, it may be best to make a batarian companion that isn't associated with any of that.

[JPfanner]

Yeah, I've never seen any evidence that effectively ALL batarians simply don't have a place in any kind of galactic community where piracy and slavery aren't the economic and social basis. That infected batarian repeatedly tries to lift his gun and just assumes you're going to do to him what he'd do to you in the same situation. The mechanic is all chatty...even though he's sending you and the other freelance mercs to your death as fodder; plus he's a Blue Sun which are the same group that was carting your carcass around for the Shadow Broker on top of every other criminal activity they're engaged in.



After doing the Colonist specific mission in ME1 and listening to what that girl went through, the whole situation in Bring Down the Sky, getting to pick which half of a colony gets nuked, and then hearing the batarian version of news events on Omega I don't want to be their friends. I don't really want the chance to have some batarian explain to me how slavery and murder are really not as bad as I think it is. I already had to endure that with Miranda and her lame "Just think what 12 rachni soldiers would have done on Eden Prime!" justification for Cerberus.

[Gravity Bun]

I'd take a Batarian squaddie for ME3, what about a Vorcha - or is that pushing it?

[Madecologist]

If I ever finish it, I can probanly show you the transcript of what I would consider to be a good Batarian Squadmate (A sample of what I think the dialogue between him and Shepard would be like). Alas I am not gonna finish this today since I have work and need to get ready for an outing.

[Varenus Luckmann]

marshalleck wrote...
[...]

Now, a batarian who doesn't overtly advocate or defend slavery and banditry would challenge that Shepard's views and force him to confront his biases. Since practically every batarian we meet is at the very least prejudiced against humans, if not outright completely hostile, it may be best to make a batarian companion that isn't associated with any of that.

But then he'd just be another Kaidan. Or Jacob. No thanks.

We have plenty of less-than-saints characters. It is entirely possible to defend slavery and be a good guy at the same time. It's just hard to be a damn Paladin about it.

Ooh. I can already see him clashing with Jack or Samara.

[Beechwell]

marshalleck wrote...
I'm not talking about just any random batarian here. I'm talking about a batarian who is defending and excusing the actions of batarian slavers to someone who lost their entire family and childhood to batarian slavers.

I'm not talking about a Batarian defending the actions on Mindoir, but rather one who would condemn such actions while at the same time defending the institution of slavery itself, believing that such raids are no necessary part of the practice, but rather ugly missteps by isolated groups. You know, a bit like someone defending the "war on terror"
 while condemning the excesses at Abu Graib etc.
Of course if all Batarians think that it is fine to routinely abduct and kill people to supply new slaves, it would be hard to portray them in a positive light. But that lies in the hands of the writers.
And after all, Krogans seem to see no fault in covering whole worlds with war, and yet they are one of the better liked races in the ME universe. Why is the Batarian slavery so much different?

[KainrycKarr]

I am indifferent.

[marshalleck]

Varenus Luckmann wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
[...]

Now, a batarian who doesn't overtly advocate or defend slavery and banditry would challenge that Shepard's views and force him to confront his biases. Since practically every batarian we meet is at the very least prejudiced against humans, if not outright completely hostile, it may be best to make a batarian companion that isn't associated with any of that.

But then he'd just be another Kaidan. Or Jacob. No thanks.

We have plenty of less-than-saints characters. It is entirely possible to defend slavery and be a good guy at the same time. It's just hard to be a damn Paladin about it.

Ooh. I can already see him clashing with Jack or Samara.

There are plenty of ways you could give a character a checkered past without making them completely repulsive.

[Madecologist]

Varenus Luckmann wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
[...]

Now, a batarian who doesn't overtly advocate or defend slavery and banditry would challenge that Shepard's views and force him to confront his biases. Since practically every batarian we meet is at the very least prejudiced against humans, if not outright completely hostile, it may be best to make a batarian companion that isn't associated with any of that.

But then he'd just be another Kaidan. Or Jacob. No thanks.

We have plenty of less-than-saints characters. It is entirely possible to defend slavery and be a good guy at the same time. It's just hard to be a damn Paladin about it.

Ooh. I can already see him clashing with Jack or Samara.

I don't think he wanted them to be saintly or a goodie too shoe either. A person can be critical and even be against slavery but still have that Batarian arrogance and hard edge to it. People need to stop to think in extremes of "BLOOOD!" "BOOTLICKER!"

[marshalleck]

So how about a batarian who doesn't necessarily condone slavery (or who at least wisely holds his/her tongue about it) but who also resents humans for their imperialistic expansion into the Skyllian Verge, the slaughter at the battle of Torfan, and the Council's perceived favoritism. Would that be too weak?

Modifié par marshalleck, 19 février 2010 - 04:42 .

[GenericPlayer2]

There is no evidence in the game that any slaver apologist batarians exist. There was that one Batarian on Garrus' vigilante team but we know next to nothing about him. Is there a single Batarian that Shepard has encountered that you would want on the team? Tarak? The Bartender? I think not!

[Varenus Luckmann]

marshalleck wrote...

Varenus Luckmann wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
[...]

Now, a batarian who doesn't overtly advocate or defend slavery and banditry would challenge that Shepard's views and force him to confront his biases. Since practically every batarian we meet is at the very least prejudiced against humans, if not outright completely hostile, it may be best to make a batarian companion that isn't associated with any of that.

But then he'd just be another Kaidan. Or Jacob. No thanks.

We have plenty of less-than-saints characters. It is entirely possible to defend slavery and be a good guy at the same time. It's just hard to be a damn Paladin about it.

Ooh. I can already see him clashing with Jack or Samara.

There are plenty of ways you could give a character a checkered past without making them completely repulsive.

And everyone who has ever defended slavery throughout history is automaticly a repulsive character? Yeeaaah, right.

[Varenus Luckmann]

scyphozoa wrote...
I think it is because of how the writers introduced Batarians that people have such animosity for them. It is really weird to see people hate Batarians more than the other more villainous races, species and factions in ME.

sure, Batarian history is filled with a lot of bad stuff, but so is Salarian history, Turian history, Human history, definitely Drell, Krogan and Quarian history. No sentient being is without a history and culture of blood shed and misery. to portray otherwise would be an ideological fantasy.

I like how you think.

[marshalleck]

Varenus Luckmann wrote...

And everyone who has ever defended slavery throughout history is automaticly a repulsive character? Yeeaaah, right.

We're talking about the game here, let's keep it relevant.

Modifié par marshalleck, 19 février 2010 - 04:45 .

[Madecologist]

marshalleck wrote...

So how about a batarian who doesn't necessarily condone slavery (or who at least wisely holds his/her tongue about it) but who also resents humans for their imperialistic expansion into the Skyllian Verge, the slaughter at the battle of Torfan, and the Council's perceived favoritism. Would that be too weak?

Not at all.

Here is an idea of a line I think he could say, "Shepard, your race shows up and literally kicks us out of territories we have been working on for the last decade. Except your race knew how to play pretty to the Council and gained it unofficial support.

You beat us at our own game Shepard, my race is not a gracious looser. Something we do share in common."

Modifié par Madecologist, 19 février 2010 - 04:46 .

[The Angry One]

Nuts to Batarians, I want a Volus.

Make it happen BioWare.

[Weiser_Cain]

It never occurred to me to travel back in time and pick up a slave owner either so no. Kill every one of them.

[JPfanner]

scyphozoa wrote...

I think it is because of how the writers introduced Batarians that people have such animosity for them. It is really weird to see people hate Batarians more than the other more villainous races, species and factions in ME.

sure, Batarian history is filled with a lot of bad stuff, but so is Salarian history, Turian history, Human history, definitely Drell, Krogan and Quarian history. No sentient being is without a history and culture of blood shed and misery. to portray otherwise would be an ideological fantasy.

Maybe because none of those races are currently raiding and destroying human colonies.  None of them have breeding/training camps for human slaves.  None of them are trying to drop an asteroid on a human colony two years ago and trying to nuke another one today.  None of them are broadcasting news reports about attacking the relief ships on the way to human colonies or congratulating whomever it was that attacked Freedom's Progress.

[DirtyVagrant]

I thought it was explained in, like, the codex that the only reason we run into Batarian criminals, slavers, and pirates is because they're the only ones who leave their homesystems. The Batarian Hegemony has imposed an isolationist policy so it is hard to say what the "normal" Batarian thinks, but their government does seem to support their pirate/slavers going out to cause continued problems for the humans since they still seem bitter from getting a raw deal from the Council.
They have a fleet that is perhaps just a little smaller the Alliance's with at least one dreadnought, wouldn't hurt to have that a part of a unified fleet against the Reapers. Convincing them, on the other hand, would be hard...

Modifié par DirtyVagrant, 19 février 2010 - 04:53 .

[Varenus Luckmann]

marshalleck wrote...

Varenus Luckmann wrote...
And everyone who has ever defended slavery throughout history is automaticly a repulsive character? Yeeaaah, right.

We're talking about the game here, let's keep it relevant.

It is relevant. Very relevant, since you imply that a character that defends slavery cannot be likable; that such a character is by default "completely repulsive".

And that's just not true. I'm not saying that slavery is good, it's not. It's a horrible practice. But to people living within a system of slavery, perhaps a state that is completely dependant on slavery to function, it's a completely different deal.

A human (and by extension, a fictional batarian) could be the save-the-kittens & don't eat meat wannabe-pacifist crush-evil paladin archetype and a slaver at the same time, easily. Just like a Salarian could be unapologetically guilty of silent genocide and still be likable, or a drell responsible for hundreds of murders but still spiritually fullfilled and honourable.

Modifié par Varenus Luckmann, 19 février 2010 - 04:54 .