129 réponses à ce sujet

[Nozybidaj]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

Agreed.  BW is all about introducing new characters not progressing existing ones. 

Yeah, it certainly does look that way.

All I can say is if Liaras "important role" in ME3 is an "easily handled cameo/sideline NPC role", I wont be buying ME3. I dont buy games from companies who make games I dont like, and after a decade that would finally prove Bioware isnt putting enough effort into to the aspect of the game I care about most, and therefore I dont like them anymore.

Agreed, despite concerns prior to ME2 I gave them the benefit of the doubt based on the strength of their previous games.  I'm even still willing to wait to see if/how the DLC/Expansions work out.  That is going to determine my future interest in ME3 and other Bioware products.  If they don't score huge (and I mean epically huge) there I think I'll find myself not caring anymore.

[SmokePants]

Madecologist wrote...

First of all, be very VERY careful who you claim to have a lack of basic analyical pattern-recogonition skills. As far as you know I can just be a janitor, or an actualy Ph.D graduate with published works. Never acusse anyone of being stupid or lacking in skill or profieciency without solid proof. Someone disagreeing with you does not suddenly mean they are some "newb".

Also, you know how Bioware makes their games? How, you are an employee? Casey.. is that you? No really. And for someone that does claim to know (because I am in the right to assume so since you accuse others of not) not understand why they did what they did with DA:O. Using it as proof to back up your claim.

So they screwed over Liara, Kaiden and Ashley and did something in another game line that have a different staff team working it proves that how things will go down and that you know how they operate. The thought is laughable at best.

I wasn't even talking to you. I typed that before I saw your reply. It was more a statement of general frustration with the absurd arguments that your side has been putting forth.

They weren't "pulling a fast one" with the ME1 characters. They brought back everyone they possibly could as squadmates (characters that could not die or be romanced) and included the remainder as much as was feasibly possible.

If you want to call that "pulling a fast one", then I can argue that the process of developing a game is "pulling a fast one" 100,000 times. Just about every aspect of a game, from art to animation to physics to dialogue trees, is a clever trick and little more than that. So, by default, it's safer to assume that obvious problems will be solved in the quickest, most elegant way possible, rather than the most meandering or difficult route.

Nothing is done arbitrarily or without reason. So, when you look at past Bioware games and are able to identify the reasons behind those decisions, you will see that they equally apply to future games. BioWare has never solved the problem people expect them to somehow solve in ME3. They have ALWAYS opted to "pull a fast one."

Modifié par SmokePants, 19 février 2010 - 04:13 .

[Cyvian]

Well, I guess there's a very specific reason why Ashley/Kaidan, Liara and Wrex only have sideline appearances in ME2, and thus cannot die...



It is because these three characters will be squadmates in ME3 again. And thus the Devs had to make sure they live through ME2. Which they do, no matter how you play ME2, those three will always keep living.



It's sort of a failsafe... even if only two of your ME2 squadmates survive (which is the minimum of squadmates that can survive without Shepard biting the dust too), ME3 will have at least 5 squadmates to choose from. Including Shepard himself this allows for Squad variety again.

[Ragnarok Ekul]

I think mass effect 3 will be set many years after 2, the reasons for this are:

certain plot choices such as curing the genophage and the quarians (possibly) taking back the homeworld would take many years of preparation and research respectively (also mordin states that the cure is still "many years" from completetion)

it could also write off characters such as mordin, thane and jack, as they all have illnesses or not long to live.

[Valmy]

Jack doesn't have long to live?



Somehow I always accidentally end up starting the romance with her, even when I specifically say I am not interested, and I can never get more out of her.

[Madecologist]

SmokePants wrote...

I wasn't even talking to you. I typed that before I saw your reply. It was more a statement of general frustration with the absurd arguments that your side has been putting forth.

They weren't "pulling a fast one" with the ME1 characters. They brought back everyone they possibly could as squadmates (characters that could not die or be romanced) and included the remainder as much as was feasibly possible.

If you want to call that "pulling a fast one", then I can argue that the process of developing a game is "pulling a fast one" 100,000 times. Just about every aspect of a game, from art to animation to physics to dialogue trees, is a clever trick and little more than that. So, by default, it's safer to assume that obvious problems will be solved in the quickest, most elegant way possible, rather than the most meandering or difficult route.

Nothing is done arbitrarily or without reason. So, when you look at past Bioware games and are able to identify the reasons behind those decisions, you will see that they equally apply to future games. BioWare has never solved the problem people expect them to somehow solve in ME3. They have ALWAYS opted to "pull a fast one."

Ah alright, I apologise if I assumed as such. If I would have known I would have addressed my comment differently. Again I apologise to misconstrue your statement. Thanks for still contributing your full opinion to the subject.

From my point, I understand why a lot of the ME1 fans are mad about what happened to their characters. But as I said, I would gladly see Tali die at the start of a game if it will improve the story. I do agree that what happened to the ME1 characters have not netted us an improvement. But I accept my fan character is not gonna evolve to the ways I might find satisfying.

Modifié par Madecologist, 19 février 2010 - 04:28 .

[Ragnarok Ekul]

Valmy wrote...

Jack doesn't have long to live?

Somehow I always accidentally end up starting the romance with her, even when I specifically say I am not interested, and I can never get more out of her.

yeah it says ingame that she's suffering from "severe mental detioration" from her biotics

[LordNige]

The way i see it, you have to have a bare minimum of 1 other squadmate survive, otherwise you don't. They (plus any others) can be worked in as a squadmate in ME3 (a choice during import perhaps?). Bioware have already made the assets for all of them, they could easily be ported straight in to ME3 with little work (i'm assuming this with very little knowledge of game design).

[The Angry One]

ULTIMATE COPOUT:
Shepard cajoles the Illusive Man into restarting the Lazarus Project to resurrect any fallen squadmates.

Modifié par The Angry One, 19 février 2010 - 04:49 .

[Faceman2006]

Ragnarok Ekul wrote...

I think mass effect 3 will be set many years after 2, the reasons for this are:
certain plot choices such as curing the genophage and the quarians (possibly) taking back the homeworld would take many years of preparation and research respectively (also mordin states that the cure is still "many years" from completetion)
it could also write off characters such as mordin, thane and jack, as they all have illnesses or not long to live.

Not necessaryily true - the genophage cure doesnt have to be implemented - only seen to exist as a future possibility - that would be enough to unite the existing Krogan clans to fight under your banner for the future promise of a cure.

Likewise the Quarian / Geth issue isn't about retaking a homeworld - it's about saying (if you side with the Quarians against the Geth) 'After this is over we'll go wipe them all out', or (if you seek peace between them) 'Let's make peace and fight together now, and worry about living arrangements afterwards'.

On the issue of squadmates, I prefer to give BW the benefit of the doubt - I think Ash/Kaidan and Liara's cameos in ME2 were intentional for story purposes (and not just badly written as many people claim), to allow a greater role in ME3 - and furthermore that if they had had a greater role in ME2, it would have detracted from their future role. Liara's cameo seems to be setting up a greater interaction with the Shadowbroker, whilst Ash/Kaidan are die hard alliance soldiers - there's no logical reason as to why they'd have rejoined you in ME2, and instead I think their absence might be used to explain them rising in the ranks of Alliance heirarchy - Kaidan as a prominent Officer, Ash as Anderson's secret weapon perhaps.

Looking at the squadmates, I would guess that Liara, and/or Ashley/Kaidan will return as either squadmates or have significant NPC roles in ME3. If Wrex survived ME1 I'd imagine he will continue to act as an NPC leading the Krogan.

I think one of the main reasons Garrus and Tali were treated differently in ME2 is that there was fan demand to have them as new LIs. So whether or not they die at the end of ME2, I'd imagine BW will write proper parts for them in ME3 (on the basis they didn't die), and if you import a game in which they didn't survive, you simply won't see those storylines any further, and random Quarian NPC #1 will take Tali's role in determining the fate of the Quarian / Geth conflict.

Of the others, I'm not so sure  

[Gill Kaiser]

Ragnarok Ekul wrote...

Valmy wrote...

Jack doesn't have long to live?

Somehow I always accidentally end up starting the romance with her, even when I specifically say I am not interested, and I can never get more out of her.

yeah it says ingame that she's suffering from "severe mental detioration" from her biotics

It's neural degeneration, not mental. At worst, she'll develop Parkinson's Disease early. I'm sure there's some decent treatment for it in 2185.

[KainrycKarr]

This will explain Casey Hudson's comments, and how the squadmates will return.

Assuming it's accurate. I don't have a source, this is merely a reasonable way, I think, of explaining it.

This is what I believe casey hudson meant by keeping the ME LI's alive through ME2, guaranteed.

Those specific characters, I think, Bioware want to have CHARACTER SPECIFIC ROLES.

As
in, they MUST bein the plot, without doubt. This makes sense for
kaidan/ashley,
as they are BOTH marines of relatively high ranking, and as such I
believe their personal history with Shepard would make a generic
stand-in impossible, and
ESPECIALLY makes sense for Liara as she is the only guaranteed survivor, and has her own separately written story-arch.

Favorites
like Tali, Garrus, Thane, etc, i believe will be made available as
squadmates and continued LI's, but will not have dialogue or cutscenes
that are crucial to the main plot. They will most likely be OPTIONAL
squaddies, based on if they lived or died.

Tl;Dr

Liara
and Kaidan/Ashley are reserved for plot specific roles that do not
allow for generic character if they are dead, thus why they were
"immunized" for ME2.

ME2 characters and LI's, while present and
with their own stories, etc, will not be crucial to the plot, and will
likely be interchangeable. Which characters are brought back will be
determined by fan response and who lived in people's save games,
respectively.

People always say Casey Hudson lies with these statements but he doesn't....you're just interpreting it differently.

[Madecologist]

I think the ME1 characters should have had a larger role in ME2. But I agree having them not join you and "leave you" was to immunise them from the effects of ME2. As in what you do there will not effect them. But I noticed something, no matter what they would have done to the ME1 characters will not please everyone.

They give us 3 Ashley Kaiden scenes, people will complain they are not recruitable. People would have wanted them so involved in the story they won't be under the immunisation from the plot of ME2.

[notphrog]

I see no reason that everyone can't come back. Sure, if the time between 2 and 3 is big enough, Mordin and Thane will likely be dead, but other than that?
The way I see it is that everyone thinks that they can't come back and be an important part of the game/story. But in ME2, the crew plays and important role, but no individual squadmate plays a huge role in the first place. So I think everyone will be back, provided they survived, but they won't be as important. They can still be squadies, just they'll likely have self-contained stories and contribute little to the overall story of the game.

[notphrog]

KainrycKarr wrote...

This will explain Casey Hudson's comments, and how the squadmates will return.

Assuming it's accurate. I don't have a source, this is merely a reasonable way, I think, of explaining it.

This is what I believe casey hudson meant by keeping the ME LI's alive through ME2, guaranteed.

Those specific characters, I think, Bioware want to have CHARACTER SPECIFIC ROLES.

As
in, they MUST bein the plot, without doubt. This makes sense for
kaidan/ashley,
as they are BOTH marines of relatively high ranking, and as such I
believe their personal history with Shepard would make a generic
stand-in impossible, and
ESPECIALLY makes sense for Liara as she is the only guaranteed survivor, and has her own separately written story-arch.

Favorites
like Tali, Garrus, Thane, etc, i believe will be made available as
squadmates and continued LI's, but will not have dialogue or cutscenes
that are crucial to the main plot. They will most likely be OPTIONAL
squaddies, based on if they lived or died.

Tl;Dr

Liara
and Kaidan/Ashley are reserved for plot specific roles that do not
allow for generic character if they are dead, thus why they were
"immunized" for ME2.

ME2 characters and LI's, while present and
with their own stories, etc, will not be crucial to the plot, and will
likely be interchangeable. Which characters are brought back will be
determined by fan response and who lived in people's save games,
respectively.

People always say Casey Hudson lies with these statements but he doesn't....you're just interpreting it differently.

That seems like a completely reasonable estimation. It's also like mine, only yours seems to have evidence to support it.

[Daeion]

superimposed wrote...

Mass Effect 3 won't have to worry about a 'save game transfer' which means they can add a lot more of the 'choice/consequence' from the previous games. Losing your entire squad could affect Shepard's attitude depending on alignment, for example - a Paragon shepard who lost his entire squad might start the game at a disadvantage, "unmotivated" and therefore unprepared - fewer defences and allies, while a renegade Shepard might be more reckless, deeper in to enemy territory without any allies bent on getting revenge.

One thing they do need to add is a 'history modifier' for either new games or loading ME2 saves. I don't like the idea of having ME1 choices affect ME2 options and then both affecting ME3 - far too many combinations to play the previous two games over and over to get the combinations.

How does ME3 not have to worry about save gam transfers?

I'm against a history modifier, you made the choices, now you live with them, that's one of the big draws of this series.

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

KainrycKarr wrote...

*Good well thought out post*

People always say Casey Hudson lies with these statements but he doesn't....you're just interpreting it differently.

Indeed, this is what drives me nuts sometimes. Granted everyone can easily misinterpret something. But in my opinion it stood out like a big bold statement when he mentioned the role they would play.

Whilst I would like for all of the ME2s to be potential squaddies if they survived, am not expecting it, even the LIs, simply because one difference between the ME LI and the ME2 LI. The tag for the former came after Virmire. Some could easily RP that their Shep was in love with the Virmire victim, but I don't think it was officially recorded. Whereas with the ME2 LIs, they are recorded before the suicide mission where even as a loyal LI they can still end up dead.

That being said, I would imagine out of them all, the ME2 LIs probably have more of a chance of return as squaddies than the others (yes even Thane) because of the whole 'actions/consequences' thing mentioned about cheating on the ME LIs. Although be interesting to see if that plays out even if the ME2 LI got killed during the suicide mission

[KainrycKarr]

Daeion wrote...

superimposed wrote...

Mass Effect 3 won't have to worry about a 'save game transfer' which means they can add a lot more of the 'choice/consequence' from the previous games. Losing your entire squad could affect Shepard's attitude depending on alignment, for example - a Paragon shepard who lost his entire squad might start the game at a disadvantage, "unmotivated" and therefore unprepared - fewer defences and allies, while a renegade Shepard might be more reckless, deeper in to enemy territory without any allies bent on getting revenge.

One thing they do need to add is a 'history modifier' for either new games or loading ME2 saves. I don't like the idea of having ME1 choices affect ME2 options and then both affecting ME3 - far too many combinations to play the previous two games over and over to get the combinations.

How does ME3 not have to worry about save gam transfers?

I'm against a history modifier, you made the choices, now you live with them, that's one of the big draws of this series.

Because they don't have to worry about continuation into ME4.

[Daeion]

Ehlisuun wrote...

Again Casey Hudson said players can expect the ME2 squadmates to return in ME3.

The entire ME crew can return in ME2, doesn't mean they impact the story at all.

[Daeion]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

There's a point in many stories where the good guys scatter to the winds and each does their own thing to contribute to the big win at the end. Mass Effect 2 was about bring them together. Between ME2 and ME3, I think we're going to see all the companions scatter. I'm guessing ME3 will look a lot, in quest structure, like DAO.

I love DA:O, great game, but I hope to god that ME3 isn't just a DA:O
clone where we just go recruit a few armies and then then leap to a
final battle with the reapers...  IMO this game needs to take palce
over a couple of years or even a decade or two, lets add some time to
the game, lets have the characters grow and change for more then just
the month I guess it takes each game to paly out.

[Black Bizart]

I'm pretty sure they don't have two years to burn + more bazillions of credits.

The Angry One wrote...

ULTIMATE COPOUT:
Shepard cajoles the Illusive Man into restarting the Lazarus Project to resurrect any fallen squadmates.

[Madecologist]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

*Good well thought out post*

People always say Casey Hudson lies with these statements but he doesn't....you're just interpreting it differently.

Indeed, this is what drives me nuts sometimes. Granted everyone can easily misinterpret something. But in my opinion it stood out like a big bold statement when he mentioned the role they would play.

[snip]

That being said, I would imagine out of them all, the ME2 LIs probably have more of a chance of return as squaddies than the others (yes even Thane) because of the whole 'actions/consequences' thing mentioned about cheating on the ME LIs. Although be interesting to see if that plays out even if the ME2 LI got killed during the suicide mission

Yeah, oddly enough the response summarises my who point. I do not think they are being misleading nor trying to be dicks. Heck even the cheating thing, they know a lot of people are gonna do it (since a lot might not have the patience to replay ME1). What I find annoying is they tend to sometimes use catchy words that can add to the drama. Like cheating, many people saw as their relationship 'ended' so they moved on, they still want consequences but that fit that model. I am sure these are possiblitlies Bioware will consider for those outcomes. They also know many people would rather stay with number 2, while some might be like "oh so sorry number 1". They will look at the player feedback. That said when using the term cheating you can't help but think they gonna pull Dawson Creek level drama on us. I doubt it.. but you can't help but think it.

Great writers and game makers, a little weak as publicisists (sp). But that just furher explains why they might be misinterpreted by the fans. But yeah, outright mislead is a heavy thing to lay on them.

[muse108]

The game should be treated as if everyone survived, and if they died just remove the parts that involve them and add a little saying they died to save everyone.



I personally really want to see Tali, Miranda and the rest of my crew back in ME3, LIs should be on your squad or worst case scenario a huge part of the game. I mean come on Tali took her mask off for you.

[alperez]

They do have a problem in bringing certain characters back always leads to arguments about the ones that aren't.



But in the end it'll come down to how they've decided to plot out me3, if the game follows the standard formula then they'll pick and choose certain characters and we'll get to recruit some new ones and that'll be the squad.



However going in this route turns mass effect from a trilogy to 3 seperate games with the same title and a number after them it makes it less of a trilogy in the broadest terms, lotr. star wars, the matrix, than a series ala rambo.



For the trilogy to work character continunity has to be involved, charactes who can be in the game should be despite whatever difficulties this involves.



If we take them at thier word the me1 charactes that weren't squadmates in me2 were done that way so as to ensure they return in me3. Which means we get Liara and either Ash/kaiden.



What should happen is any character possible that survives the end mission is available as a squadmate in me3 apart from the ones who suggested they may not return or ones that were living on borrowed time.



So apart from one or 2 written out because it makes sense, thane, jack, what would happen is with the addition of the 2 me1 characters we'd be brought back up to basically the same as we had in me2. For anyone who just joins or plays the default, the suicide mission is classed as a success and apart from the couple of characters they write out everyone is available.



For those that lost characters, well tough, you lost some of your crew then you should have a disadvantage, you play with what you've left plus the 2 me1 crew members, don't like it tough then you should have been more prepared on the end mission shouldn't you.



The plotline itself should have no real character based missions and focus instead on building your forces to face the reapers. This should be slightly easier if certain characters survived the end mission, i.e. tali lives things are slightly easier getting the quarians on board, tali dies and it's a little harder but not impossible.



So if they focused on non character based missions they could implement it so everyone who could come back does come back, but if the stick to the same basics, they'll fudge it, no one will be entirely happy and the forum will be a scary place to visit.