How do you know it's not supported? Maybe it will be reflected in the world when you have to create a new Grey Warden character.
Unless by "supported" you meant, "Why can't my Grey Warden come back as a zombie Grey Warden? That would be awesome..."
Erm, that would be awesome. We should mod that.
Why give us the Ultimate Sacrifice ending when it won't be supported further, Bioware?
Débuté par
Lord_Darkmoon
, févr. 19 2010 01:54
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#77
Guest_Elithranduil_*
Posté 03 mars 2010 - 04:18
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They have said that they just pretend The Ultimate Sacrifice never happened and you somehow got out of it alive.
Which is incredibly dumb and cheapens the whole experience. It just shows how slack they are in being so unwilling to program such an outcome.
How hard can it be to carry over key decisions from The Ultimate Sacrifice save AND then let you experience the world as an Orlesian Grey Warden?
Don't give me the excuse that it's too difficult or complex - they are pretty much allowing a comprehensive transfer for every other kind of ending. It should be EASIER in terms of narrowing down specific content permutations because it's more of a clean slate with your original Warden being dead.
Which is incredibly dumb and cheapens the whole experience. It just shows how slack they are in being so unwilling to program such an outcome.
How hard can it be to carry over key decisions from The Ultimate Sacrifice save AND then let you experience the world as an Orlesian Grey Warden?
Don't give me the excuse that it's too difficult or complex - they are pretty much allowing a comprehensive transfer for every other kind of ending. It should be EASIER in terms of narrowing down specific content permutations because it's more of a clean slate with your original Warden being dead.
#78
Posté 03 mars 2010 - 04:56
Vicious
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Really guys, Bioware games ALWAYS have a 'set' canon.
In KOTOR, you can be a badass and take over the Republic, but guess what, it's not what is considered canon.
In Baldur's Gate 2, you always start off with the 'good' teammates from Baldur's Gate 1, regardless of what you actually finished the game with.
In Mass Effect 2, you can sleep with a certain character and get a big fat CRITICAL MISSION FAILURE, or you can die on the final mission. But guess what - while the game acts it out, it is not considered canon either.
It's there for immersion purposes. Bioware does not deny players their choices. They do, however, force their own canon where they have to. And in this case, Morrigan's offer, an offer that has never come before and will never come again, is taken.
Not trying to be a Bioware apologist, but the precedent is there. The whole idea of choices carrying over is really a Mass Effect thing, where it might actually matter. Dragon Age is not trilogy material, and yes, I know DA2 is coming out, and I am sure it will feature a new protagonist and have little to do with the events of DA1.
If they cannot go out and program all the little details IMO, then the Orlesian Warden should have his own seperate origin story that has nothing to do with any of the original characters - and thus give the player the impression that the US was performed or at the very least, that he's the only person capable of the job at the moment. That's the best way to launch the story without conflicting with a player's own personal story ; Just have the Orlesian Warden start with his own digs and his own leader and then launch off on a new grand adventure only meeting brand new NPCs.
In KOTOR, you can be a badass and take over the Republic, but guess what, it's not what is considered canon.
In Baldur's Gate 2, you always start off with the 'good' teammates from Baldur's Gate 1, regardless of what you actually finished the game with.
In Mass Effect 2, you can sleep with a certain character and get a big fat CRITICAL MISSION FAILURE, or you can die on the final mission. But guess what - while the game acts it out, it is not considered canon either.
It's there for immersion purposes. Bioware does not deny players their choices. They do, however, force their own canon where they have to. And in this case, Morrigan's offer, an offer that has never come before and will never come again, is taken.
Not trying to be a Bioware apologist, but the precedent is there. The whole idea of choices carrying over is really a Mass Effect thing, where it might actually matter. Dragon Age is not trilogy material, and yes, I know DA2 is coming out, and I am sure it will feature a new protagonist and have little to do with the events of DA1.
If they cannot go out and program all the little details IMO, then the Orlesian Warden should have his own seperate origin story that has nothing to do with any of the original characters - and thus give the player the impression that the US was performed or at the very least, that he's the only person capable of the job at the moment. That's the best way to launch the story without conflicting with a player's own personal story ; Just have the Orlesian Warden start with his own digs and his own leader and then launch off on a new grand adventure only meeting brand new NPCs.
Modifié par Vicious, 03 mars 2010 - 04:59 .
#79
Posté 03 mars 2010 - 05:54
Morroian
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Uh Amaranthine is part of Ferelden, its next to Wardens Keep and Highever.Mirthadrond wrote...
I don't see what all the fuss is about??
This is an expansion, taking place in another realm that's a thousand miles away from Ferelden.
#80
Posté 03 mars 2010 - 05:56
Morroian
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Whereas I am positive that Morrigan's dark ritual will play into DA2. And why isn't it trilogy material anyway? There's plenty of material to explore in Thedas.Vicious wrote...
It's there for immersion purposes. Bioware does not deny players their choices. They do, however, force their own canon where they have to. And in this case, Morrigan's offer, an offer that has never come before and will never come again, is taken.
Not trying to be a Bioware apologist, but the precedent is there. The whole idea of choices carrying over is really a Mass Effect thing, where it might actually matter. Dragon Age is not trilogy material, and yes, I know DA2 is coming out, and I am sure it will feature a new protagonist and have little to do with the events of DA1.
#81
Posté 03 mars 2010 - 06:03
Axekix
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Clearly the warden was a HNM who slept with Morrigan. I mean the sacred ashes trailer pretty much made it canon. Lets just accept it and move on. The other endings don't matter.
#82
Posté 03 mars 2010 - 07:48
Lord_Darkmoon
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Axekix wrote...
Clearly the warden was a HNM who slept with Morrigan. I mean the sacred ashes trailer pretty much made it canon. Lets just accept it and move on. The other endings don't matter.
Maybe I could accept this - over time. But they need to say it outright otherwise it seems to be an arbitrary decision to drop one ending.
#83
Posté 03 mars 2010 - 11:11
ClonePatrol
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The Ultimate Sacrifice ending isn't scrapped. They said to bring in your old character if you don't mind hand waving the story. If your character is dead, your supposed to play the Orlesian Warden. The good question would be can you play the Orlesian Warden with the world affected by the dead Warden's choices, and if not why? Essentially if your dead Warden also had Alistair killed at the Landsmeet, will he be dead for the Orlesian Warden.
The Dark Ritual is not cannon from what I can see, they just let you change your mind if you feel like it. I haven't seen anything saying the character is assumed to have done the Dark Ritual, just that they didn't make the Ultimate Sacrifice (If they aren't dead there is no sacrifice, the sacrifice is your life) and that they "instead somehow survived" as in who knows why? No one that's who.
If they were to force the Dark Ritual for Morrigan to have the Old God Baby, the Warden doesn't have to be HNM or MHM. Elves have human baby's when they breed with humans. so that cover's CEM, MEM and DEM . Dwarves can breed with humans but that is supposed to be rare, and not sure what comes out, so maybe that covers NDM and CDM. Also they could have Alistair (or Loghain) secretly do it to spare his friend or lover, that cover's all bases I think. But again no real reason to think they actually are doing that. "Instead somehow survived" could be "Dues ex Machina". The Maker, or the Old Gods, or The Creators, don't want you dead. I mean you did find Urn of Sacred Ashes, coulda got The Maker's interest right there, or if you deifled it the intrest of a less than benevolent entity, like Fen'Harel the Dread Wolf, who roams the fade, and is responsible for the abscense of the Elven Gods.
Also, for those that missed the lore, the lands of Amaranthine are just east of Highever, where the Human Noble is from. It actually falls under the domain of now Teyrn Fergus Cousland of Highever. If I remember correctly, a Teyrn is a Bann who has had other Bann's swear fealty to them. The Teyrn can then appoint certain important Banns to the position of Arl, who is then also over some of the lesser Banns, generally done when they control an important area of the Terynir. A Teyrnir is made up of the lands of other lesser nobles, A Bann gains his power from the Freeholder's who swear fealty to them. A Teyrn would have Freeholders and Bann's sworn to them, and everyone is sworn to the King. So it goes kinda like this:
Freeholder > Bann > Arl > Teyrn > King/Queen
Each persons domain Includes the domain of the person below them, sort of a pyramid of power rising up from the freeholder's. Though as has been shown, if a land is lacking it's noble, they can have one appointed by the king/queen, or the Landsmeet. When I was playing I assumed Arl Eamon is sworn to the Teyrn of Gwaren (aka Loghain), but since he can with draw that support at any time, and put it with someone else, or no one else, Loghain has no actual control. This kind of system is why the lore says Orlesians think Fereldan nobility chaotic, since true power is dependant on your lessers liking you, making allegiances change frequently and civil war common.
The Dark Ritual is not cannon from what I can see, they just let you change your mind if you feel like it. I haven't seen anything saying the character is assumed to have done the Dark Ritual, just that they didn't make the Ultimate Sacrifice (If they aren't dead there is no sacrifice, the sacrifice is your life) and that they "instead somehow survived" as in who knows why? No one that's who.
If they were to force the Dark Ritual for Morrigan to have the Old God Baby, the Warden doesn't have to be HNM or MHM. Elves have human baby's when they breed with humans. so that cover's CEM, MEM and DEM . Dwarves can breed with humans but that is supposed to be rare, and not sure what comes out, so maybe that covers NDM and CDM. Also they could have Alistair (or Loghain) secretly do it to spare his friend or lover, that cover's all bases I think. But again no real reason to think they actually are doing that. "Instead somehow survived" could be "Dues ex Machina". The Maker, or the Old Gods, or The Creators, don't want you dead. I mean you did find Urn of Sacred Ashes, coulda got The Maker's interest right there, or if you deifled it the intrest of a less than benevolent entity, like Fen'Harel the Dread Wolf, who roams the fade, and is responsible for the abscense of the Elven Gods.
Also, for those that missed the lore, the lands of Amaranthine are just east of Highever, where the Human Noble is from. It actually falls under the domain of now Teyrn Fergus Cousland of Highever. If I remember correctly, a Teyrn is a Bann who has had other Bann's swear fealty to them. The Teyrn can then appoint certain important Banns to the position of Arl, who is then also over some of the lesser Banns, generally done when they control an important area of the Terynir. A Teyrnir is made up of the lands of other lesser nobles, A Bann gains his power from the Freeholder's who swear fealty to them. A Teyrn would have Freeholders and Bann's sworn to them, and everyone is sworn to the King. So it goes kinda like this:
Freeholder > Bann > Arl > Teyrn > King/Queen
Each persons domain Includes the domain of the person below them, sort of a pyramid of power rising up from the freeholder's. Though as has been shown, if a land is lacking it's noble, they can have one appointed by the king/queen, or the Landsmeet. When I was playing I assumed Arl Eamon is sworn to the Teyrn of Gwaren (aka Loghain), but since he can with draw that support at any time, and put it with someone else, or no one else, Loghain has no actual control. This kind of system is why the lore says Orlesians think Fereldan nobility chaotic, since true power is dependant on your lessers liking you, making allegiances change frequently and civil war common.
Modifié par ClonePatrol, 03 mars 2010 - 11:59 .
#84
Posté 03 mars 2010 - 12:07
Morroian
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ClonePatrol wrote...
The Ultimate Sacrifice ending isn't scrapped. They said to bring in your old character if you don't mind hand waving the story. If your character is dead, your supposed to play the Orlesian Warden. The good question would be can you play the Orlesian Warden with the world affected by the dead Warden's choices, and if not why?
Um you should read the debate more carefully, it is over precisely that question not bringing back the dead character. It appears we can't play in a world affected by the dead warden's choices.
#85
Posté 03 mars 2010 - 12:15
ClonePatrol
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I haven't seen where bioware says that's the case, could you link plz.
Though that being the case, I'm fairly sure a mod will be made for that quickly, just a guess based on stuff out now, but i think you would just have to import the dead warden, force origin Orlesian Warden, and respec the character. If the dead Warden's choices pass when imported, then this should work. Essentially an update of the "Adopted" mod made by Xatmos.
The game will have to come out first though, and it might not be same day, but I'm almost certain it will be one of the first things made.
Why would likely be, "We forgot" or "Time constraints" etc.
Though that being the case, I'm fairly sure a mod will be made for that quickly, just a guess based on stuff out now, but i think you would just have to import the dead warden, force origin Orlesian Warden, and respec the character. If the dead Warden's choices pass when imported, then this should work. Essentially an update of the "Adopted" mod made by Xatmos.
The game will have to come out first though, and it might not be same day, but I'm almost certain it will be one of the first things made.
Why would likely be, "We forgot" or "Time constraints" etc.
Modifié par ClonePatrol, 03 mars 2010 - 12:20 .
#86
Posté 03 mars 2010 - 01:13
ClonePatrol
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I seriously can't find anywhere they said that you can, or can't have your dead Warden affect the Orlesian Warden. Is a statement buried in the forums somewhere?
It doesn't say not with the Orlesian Warden though.
I have read every Bioware Statement in the Awakenings forum, Every Article on dragonage,wikia.com, the articles on IGN, Eurogamer, Kotaku, and the Bioware blog, and still nothing to support the claim that the Orlesian Warden can't be affected by your dead Warden.
It says in place's that the Orlesian Warden will see cameos of old companions, but no specifics. They say you can import the old Warden, but you don't have to, you can import the dead Warden, but you don't have to. Nowhere that I've found does it say you can or can't import just world data.
The lack of a clear statement by Bioware on this is a mystery to me.
Victor Wachter wrote...
Will my choices be reflected at all in Awakening? For example, will Allistair, Logaine or Wynne react to decisions I made in Origins?
The cameos definitely react to your decisions in Origins. Depending on your Origin choices you may not even see them.
It doesn't say not with the Orlesian Warden though.
I have read every Bioware Statement in the Awakenings forum, Every Article on dragonage,wikia.com, the articles on IGN, Eurogamer, Kotaku, and the Bioware blog, and still nothing to support the claim that the Orlesian Warden can't be affected by your dead Warden.
It says in place's that the Orlesian Warden will see cameos of old companions, but no specifics. They say you can import the old Warden, but you don't have to, you can import the dead Warden, but you don't have to. Nowhere that I've found does it say you can or can't import just world data.
The lack of a clear statement by Bioware on this is a mystery to me.
#87
Posté 03 mars 2010 - 02:58
Super_Cat
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I am just upset that the Ultimate Sacrifice will be ignored.
I'd rather import my dead Warden and get a resurrection story, like a benevolent fade spirit manages to send you back in physical form somehow.
Ignore the sacrifice completely and say you lived somehow, or playing a game where your specific sacrifice never happened are both really annoying choices to me.
I'd rather import my dead Warden and get a resurrection story, like a benevolent fade spirit manages to send you back in physical form somehow.
Ignore the sacrifice completely and say you lived somehow, or playing a game where your specific sacrifice never happened are both really annoying choices to me.
#88
Posté 03 mars 2010 - 03:02
Cuthlan
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Super_Cat wrote...
I am just upset that the Ultimate Sacrifice will be ignored.
I'd rather import my dead Warden and get a resurrection story, like a benevolent fade spirit manages to send you back in physical form somehow.
Ignore the sacrifice completely and say you lived somehow, or playing a game where your specific sacrifice never happened are both really annoying choices to me.
Here's a way to make it all better for you: Alistair performed the Dark Ritual with Morrigan without telling you. You weren't dead, you were just unconscious.
#89
Posté 03 mars 2010 - 06:46
Vicious
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I have read every Bioware Statement in the Awakenings forum, Every Article on dragonage,wikia.com, the articles on IGN, Eurogamer, Kotaku, and the Bioware blog, and still nothing to support the claim that the Orlesian Warden can't be affected by your dead Warden.
You must be new here.
Fernando Melo wrote...
Can you import the world 'state', but start new in Awakening as the Orlesian Cmdr? No. The world 'state' only exists and lives on as part of your character's choices - most of the reactivity to events and choices in Origins would simply not make sense if it wasn't 'you' that did it.
Fernando Melo is a Bioware Rep.
So... there you have it.
#90
Guest_distinguetraces_*
Posté 03 mars 2010 - 06:57
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ClonePatrol wrote...
I have read every Bioware Statement in the Awakenings forum, Every Article on dragonage,wikia.com, the articles on IGN, Eurogamer, Kotaku, and the Bioware blog, and still nothing to support the claim that the Orlesian Warden can't be affected by your dead Warden.
Bioware has gone dead silent on the point ever since Fernando Melo gave an interview in January saying that a dead warden's choices would NOT affect Awakenings, followed by a post from David Gaider in which he said he had just learned of this technical problem, and that he was not sure whether it would be possible -- although he had originally believed (and said) that a dead warden's choices WOULD affect Awakenings.
Since that time they have ignored all questions on the issue -- including a 33-page thread.
#91
Posté 03 mars 2010 - 08:04
avatarx21
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"Bioware does not deny players their choices. They do, however, force their own canon where they have to. And in this case, Morrigan's offer, an offer that has never come before and will never come again, is taken. "
Is this confirmed true? I certainly hope so because there's great story potential there (eg we play as the child in DA2 or he/she is the nemesis).
Is this confirmed true? I certainly hope so because there's great story potential there (eg we play as the child in DA2 or he/she is the nemesis).
#92
Posté 04 mars 2010 - 12:11
ClonePatrol
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I know who Fernando Melo is, but where is that quote from? I don't think it's from the IGN interview he did in early January about Awakening, or the one on Destructoid, or Neoseeker.
#93
Posté 04 mars 2010 - 12:48
Axekix
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The Human Noble Male story is the best one anyway. It's good that that's the one they're going with.
"Ultimate Sacrifice" makes it kind of hard to expand upon the game afterwards, so just play the game the right way and accept the non-canon endings as just that.
"Ultimate Sacrifice" makes it kind of hard to expand upon the game afterwards, so just play the game the right way and accept the non-canon endings as just that.
#94
Posté 04 mars 2010 - 01:07
Murphys_Law
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Lord_Darkmoon wrote...
And here we go again.......it was stated in the original thread announcing the Awakening expac, that our choices/decisions would carry over into the expac. By those I am sure they mention the story changing or world changing facts, such as who was king/queen..etc.
But here we have the only story line that doesn't carry over, the Ultimate Sacrifice.
Think about it..kind of like a news story. Most large events in the world get reported on, people know for instance, that there was a tsunami that hit after the earthquakes in Chile.
Logical continuation. When you die, even in real life, there is information that is passed on ..or shared about that event.
Same thing with any movie, or novel I have read. If the person happens to be important to the scheme of things, the news or information...is passed on to those it affects or those that care about it.
You are taking one line of diagloue and blowing it up into a giant pillar of truth about the expanson. Think for a second how many endings/choices they already have to keep track of and have it effect/mentioned in the expansion. Obviously not every choice and decison carries over to the expanson, only a few important ones do. Yes, US should be one of those and I think Bioware definetly wanted to make a story line for that ending. But guess what it is a business and they have to work under a budget and timeline. US is most likely the least played ending in my opinion, simply because players normally do not like to kill off their precious character. So they made a call and just made it so you don't have to change your US ending or make a new character. There also might be some technical challenges with making the decisons of a "dead" character effect a new character and this may of proved too costly to solve. Yeah it isn't a pretty solution, but I hardly think this solution should be the dealbreaker that a lot of players on these forums make it out to be.
#95
Posté 04 mars 2010 - 01:17
Feraele
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Murphys_Law wrote...
Lord_Darkmoon wrote...
And here we go again.......it was stated in the original thread announcing the Awakening expac, that our choices/decisions would carry over into the expac. By those I am sure they mention the story changing or world changing facts, such as who was king/queen..etc.
But here we have the only story line that doesn't carry over, the Ultimate Sacrifice.
Think about it..kind of like a news story. Most large events in the world get reported on, people know for instance, that there was a tsunami that hit after the earthquakes in Chile.
Logical continuation. When you die, even in real life, there is information that is passed on ..or shared about that event.
Same thing with any movie, or novel I have read. If the person happens to be important to the scheme of things, the news or information...is passed on to those it affects or those that care about it.
You are taking one line of diagloue and blowing it up into a giant pillar of truth about the expanson. Think for a second how many endings/choices they already have to keep track of and have it effect/mentioned in the expansion. Obviously not every choice and decison carries over to the expanson, only a few important ones do. Yes, US should be one of those and I think Bioware definetly wanted to make a story line for that ending. But guess what it is a business and they have to work under a budget and timeline. US is most likely the least played ending in my opinion, simply because players normally do not like to kill off their precious character. So they made a call and just made it so you don't have to change your US ending or make a new character. There also might be some technical challenges with making the decisons of a "dead" character effect a new character and this may of proved too costly to solve. Yeah it isn't a pretty solution, but I hardly think this solution should be the dealbreaker that a lot of players on these forums make it out to be.
I don't think anyone mentioned "deal breaker"...but there were a couple promises broken in this respect.
And a plot hole WAS created. Those of us who did the US, are greatly disappointed ..due to the fact that early on, we were told yes our choices, decisions would be reflected in Awakening. That was when Awakening was first announced.
Since 18 days ago, there has been complete and utter silence........
Noone has responded to these two threads..the 33 page one and this one. Silence.
IF its not possible to do this, we need confirmation of this fact. Not silence.
#96
Posté 04 mars 2010 - 01:19
Feraele
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Axekix wrote...
The Human Noble Male story is the best one anyway. It's good that that's the one they're going with.
"Ultimate Sacrifice" makes it kind of hard to expand upon the game afterwards, so just play the game the right way and accept the non-canon endings as just that.
Well that kind of eliminates the Female Human Noble doesn't it? There are two genders you know. *smile*
#97
Posté 04 mars 2010 - 01:23
Feraele
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WilliamShatner wrote...
grieferbastard wrote...
So you can import your dead warden - some people have a PC who died they'd like to see continue. They left that option open - awesome sauce.
People intentionally killed off their character so they could continue that character in future games? They don't sound like the brightest bunch tbh.
It is a legitimate ending..if it wasn't..it wouldn't exist..it wouldn't have been written in...now would it?
It IS the most heroic ending..and it fulfills the fact that a Grey Warden is SUPPOSED to die..killing the Archdemon, to prevent the Archdemon soul passing to another darkspawn......and therefore remaining immortal.
#98
Posté 04 mars 2010 - 01:25
JKJEDIKNIGHT
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It's funny that this subject just won't die similar to the game length for Awakening lol. I have to say that I do support those that are upset about the US not mattering. At least for the time being. While I personally do not think that anything further will become of the US choice, it would be great if they did something with it down the line. But if this series is about "choices", then obviously DA:O2 would follow Awakening, so hense I don't see the US ever mattering. That or if they bring it back, they will have to disregard Awakening for DA:O 2. HA, wouldn't that be a twist? :-p
#99
Posté 04 mars 2010 - 01:30
Feraele
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JKJEDIKNIGHT wrote...
It's funny that this subject just won't die similar to the game length for Awakening lol. I have to say that I do support those that are upset about the US not mattering. At least for the time being. While I personally do not think that anything further will become of the US choice, it would be great if they did something with it down the line. But if this series is about "choices", then obviously DA:O2 would follow Awakening, so hense I don't see the US ever mattering. That or if they bring it back, they will have to disregard Awakening for DA:O 2. HA, wouldn't that be a twist? :-p
A sort of...."we were only fooling" twist.
#100
Posté 04 mars 2010 - 01:34
Ildaron
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It is a legitimate ending..if it wasn't..it wouldn't exist..it wouldn't have been written in...now would it?
It IS the most heroic ending..and it fulfills the fact that a Grey Warden is SUPPOSED to die..killing the Archdemon, to prevent the Archdemon soul passing to another darkspawn......and therefore remaining immortal.
Wardens are not supposed to take sides in politics, however they have. Wardens are not supposed to use blood magic to expeirment on other wardens and live for a few extra hundred years, yet one of them has done so. The only thing Wardens really do is make sure the blight is stopped at any means... oh wait Aliister will quit if you push him to far as well. I guess a Warden will do whatever they choose to do.
Modifié par Ildaron, 04 mars 2010 - 01:35 .
