171 réponses à ce sujet

[Mordigan]

Pannamaslo wrote...

I heard that it was not due to their performance, but the influance it had on men. Men screwd up missions, because they wanted to protect women also it is unaccepted in our culture to let women suffer as a war prisoner . Do you have any material to support your statement? 

Link to Israeli tests

British study

I couldn't find the link to the U.S study right now as I'm at work and I don't have enough time, but if I find it later, I'll post it.

[StaR_JeS]

Mordigan wrote...

Hmm, you'd think that female subjugation would have started with hunter gatherer Societies, as they seem to be more aggressive..
 

Not necessarily. I just finished a History of Art in Early Civilization course, and despite the astonishing lack of information and art from Prehistoric/Ice Age eras, what little art has been preserved is more female-centric than male-centric. There are only a few known examples of male hunters in handrawn art while there are many more figurines and paintings of females. This suggests several things, one of which was an understanding of prehistoric man that woman was the key to life, and women may have been worshipped or revered because of the greater wealth of female-centric art.

Again, not a whole lot of evidence, but it is a strong theory. At the very least, self-reflection and abstract thought is not present in prehistoric art (which explains the lack of male figures), so what little art there is can be assumed it was used for worship or instruction.

Mordigan wrote...
And to be the best, requires abilities beyond that of the average human..

The
presence of FemShep makes this more difficult to swallow however,
because it contradicts what we see in the real World regarding men and
womens' roles when it comes to the Military..

And then this is where I go, "It's fiction. Suspension of belief abounds. Whatever your opinion may be does not affect how others view it." Not to be a jerk, but it's true.

And honestly, what's so wrong with imagining a future where tech (and possibly telekinetic powers like biotics) and gene manipulation can create a skilled super-soldier of a sort from any gender? And who's to say a woman wouldn't be able to fill Shepard's shoes given the right skill-set? If she were an awesome Engineer who could hack anything, or a truly powerful Adept who could put out the nastiest shockwave, or even an Infiltrator type specializing in stealth and sniping, then why couldn't she be Special Forces? Those talents would certainly come in handy in a future filled with the aforementioned.

Science is a beautiful, ever-expanding thing where the impossible is become more possible everyday. While for now, I will agree that women lack the physical capability to be combat hardy, I would postulate that in the future there might be things that compensate for physical weakness.

As to the actual topic, Shepard would be portrayed as a male, unfortunately. Bee-Dubya has marketed Sheploo's face all over so that's what the general (non-gamer) population would most likely be familiar with. 

Modifié par StaR_JeS, 22 février 2010 - 11:58 .

[Pannamaslo]

Mordigan wrote...

Pannamaslo wrote...

I heard that it was not due to their performance, but the influance it had on men. Men screwd up missions, because they wanted to protect women also it is unaccepted in our culture to let women suffer as a war prisoner . Do you have any material to support your statement? 

Link to Israeli tests

British study

I couldn't find the link to the U.S study right now as I'm at work and I don't have enough time, but if I find it later, I'll post it.

I still think it's just an excuse and more "risk of capture" and morale of male soldiers is a factor here. I want to see how this will evolve in society. In my opinion women are too precious from sociological or biological point of view to be killed  in wars. From evolutionary point of view men are more expandable. On the other hand I know about  women who want to serve in combat units and serve (in special forces GROM in Poland ). It's just if they want to do it, that's their decision, no law should forbid that.

I sense that we hijacked this thread:bandit:

[mopotter]

sinosleep wrote...
p.s. For every real world example of a good female military figure I can name 20 males. Even in countries where they are accepted truly great female military leaders are few and far between. Rank in and of itself doesn't really apply to what we are talking about with femshep. I met plenty of female captains, majors, colonels, etc in my time in the army, guess how many of them led spec ops missions though. 

Why is this 20 males important?  The question as I understood it, was  - Male or Female Shepard and if it's at all plausible for Shepard to be female. 

One woman makes it plausible, and hopefully since it takes place in the future, there are more than a few female with the skills needed to do the job.   My bigest disbelief factor is her age.  I think she's in her early 30's and I'm not sure someone (male or female) could do all of this that young.  But I can accept it because it's a game. 

Besides, it's a video game, like a tv show.  Currently, my favorite tv character is Ziva David (Cote de Pablo) on NCIS and  my favorite tv moment was watching her take out two men coming in from two different entrances.    

[Blackveldt]

sinosleep wrote...

@Blackveldt, what is so hard for you to understand about the fact that some people have different breaking points for their suspension of disbelief than others? I mean, for all the genetic modification you mentioned, did it ever occur to you that if you apply the same upgrades to a better base it's still better? If you put twin turbos on a 4 banger and twin turbos on an 8 cylinder guess which one is going to pump out more horse power?

Because ME is still set in the distant future.  In a fictional universe.  And applying today's world to it is still ridiculous.  You missed my entire point.  There is no way to predict everything and to do so would be in error; this bothers me more than anything since I spend a huge chunk of my free time as a research assisstant.

And a "better base"?  Better base of what?  Physical prowess?  Cognitive thinking?  Which is actually besides the point since I wasn't comparing the sexes.  I was stating that if armor and weapons were still heavy in this futuristic setting, then why not upgrade your strength to compensate?  Problem solved.  This, however, was a matter in which I
indulged; Shepard isn't known for brute strength.

p.s. For every real world example of a good female military figure I can name 20 males. Even in countries where they are accepted truly great female military leaders are few and far between. Rank in and of itself doesn't really apply to what we are talking about with femshep. I met plenty of female captains, majors, colonels, etc in my time in the army, guess how many of them led spec ops missions though. 

I again was NOT comparing males and females for real world examples (why do people's minds always go there?); I was merely pointing out that they do exist if you cannot think of any yourself.  Just because you haven't met any or cannot conjure an example at the top of your head, does not mean that they do not exist.  Of course there are more examples of males seeing as males have had a longer history of that--not my point.  And you are yet again applying today's world to the futuristic setting of ME.  Take into account at least some evolution and possibility; at least stop using fallacious arguments.

Modifié par Blackveldt, 22 février 2010 - 01:37 .

[Blackveldt]

Mordigan wrote...


But it is.  Mass Effect more than most Sci-Fi oriented games burrows heavily from the real World for inspiration..

As is everything that we can imagine.  As an example, even the concept of X-Men is heavily based in "real World . . . inspiration."  People being persecuted for being different--not anything new in history.  The whole point of all of these stories, besides entertainment, however, is to stretch our minds of what can and may be as opposed to simply what is.  And now that you mention it, Sci-Fi is a genre that takes possibility based in reality to a whole new level.  Sci-Fi demands that we create stories and technology that is most plausible, which is why there always exists a sizeable margin of error.  Star Trek as a perfect example.  It's obvious our society affected the show(s).  An episode of Kirk traveling the galaxy makes this obvious; what is also obvious is that, despite the social limitations of the current era (at that time), the writers still tried to create a futuristic world based on a predictive model and not simply the current world in which they live.  Women and minorities were treated better, seen as stronger and more capable in the Star Trek universe because of this.  The real world is inspirational.  Mmm...yes; I do not know from where else we would draw our inspiration.

What makes you think weapons, armor and equipment would be lighter?

The average load for infantry soldiers has barely changed since the Roman days...in fact, it's gotten heavier..

If anything, the weapons, armor and equipment in Mass Effect would be heavier than their contemporary counterparts, because they are much more powerful..

Anyway, thats a minor arguement if you ask me..

It was an example.  I am not saying it would be--just that anything is possible as we evolve.  In fact, I was not merely talking of simple equipment.  Battle and tactics have evolved as well.  And what is the average load for infantry soldiers?  What was the average load for Roman days?  If you're going to state something as fact, please cite it.  My point was that anything is possible; if you perceived my statement as 'fact,' it was not intended as such and I apologize for the confusion.  And no offense to the female gender, but a female warrior in the Roman Empire is not nearly as plausible as a female soldier today because armor was made of a different material back then--namely metals--as opposed to today's more standard protection of synthetic polymers and the like.  Women today are able to serve in the military not just because of societal norms, but because technology has enabled them to be able to do this physically as well.  What's more is that humanity has evolved physically since then.  Even if the average load was exactly the same from both eras, you must account for extraneous variables like physical evolution.  Our average height and build today are greater than that of a mere 50 years ago.  I have several peer-reviewed resources for this, but my access to PsychINFO and PubMed is limited on this particular computer.  However, I am more than happy to oblige if you are interested; they are quite fascinating reads actually, particularly the work of Kanazawa, S. and Reyniers, DJ. (2009).  But as I stated, the battlefield itself has really evolved since Roman times, so it's difficult to place such significance on physical prowess alone.

And weight and power are not positively correlated lest you would like to provide a reliable resource for this.  'Power' alone is not easily operationally defined; parameters would be ambiguous, with an insignificant effect size at best.

I went over genetic enhancement a few pages ago.. As described in the codex, genetic enhancement is not a magic wand that can turn ordinary human beings into super humans.

I did not say it was.  The Codex does mention that humans in the ME world can increase already-human attributes like strength.  If equipment, etc required a certain amount of base strength, would it not be feasible to enhance this particular human trait for maximum efficiency?  In my opinion, if there would be any organization that would humor this theory, it would be military in design (better soldiers, etc).  I never alluded to "super humans" of any kind.

Shepard is nothing more than a very fit human being, and probably comparable to today's best athletes, or maybe slightly better..

I completely agree.  It was my point to treat Shepard as an individual.  Others in this thread did not.

As it's been mentioned, everyone has different tolerances when it comes to suspension of disbelief.

*Sigh*  I know.  Sometimes I forget this and that is my error; I appreciate you pointing this out and enjoyed reading and replying to your responses.  I spend all day researching/studying Cognitive Science and Psychology, which requires both an objective and analytical mind as well as a imaginitive one as we deal in theoreticals a lot (in terms of the psychology).  I should not expect this of others as that would be rather silly.

Modifié par Blackveldt, 22 février 2010 - 05:21 .

[sinosleep]

mopotter wrote...
Why is this 20 males important?  The question as I understood it, was  - Male or Female Shepard and if it's at all plausible for Shepard to be female.  

The 20 males is important is because just because it's POSSIBLE, it doesn't make it in any way shape or form plausible or probable. Suspension of disbelief is an issue for me and always has been, if I can't maintain it then it wrecks every thing. It's why I stopped watching doll house even though I love Joss Whedon (firefly, serenity, astonishing x-men don't care for buffy/angel though) like 4 episodes into season 2. I managed to suspend my disbelief about a lot of stuff, but I could warp my head around why they would continue to use Echo at all. Even if she completed her missions it seemed she spazzed out and nearly cost them EACH AND EVERY TIME. Mean while, Sierra seemed to accomplish all her goals with no issues whatsoever. Why wouldn't the corporation just scrap Echo all together instead of continually risking discovering due to her constant errors? I had to stop watching.

Blackveldt wrote...
Because ME is still set in the distant future.  In a fictional universe.  And applying today's world to it is still ridiculous.  You missed my entire point.  There is no way to predict everything and to do so would be in error; this bothers me more than anything since I spend a huge chunk of my free time as a research assisstant.
And a "better base"?  Better base of what?  Physical prowess?  Cognitive thinking?  Which is actually besides the point since I wasn't comparing the sexes.  I was stating that if armor and weapons were still heavy in this futuristic setting, then why not upgrade your strength to compensate?  Problem solved.  This, however, was a matter in which I indulged; Shepard isn't known for brute strength.

ME being set in a fictional universe has jack nothing to do with ones ability to maintain suspension of disbelief. I read comics, been a huge comics geek all my life. And while I can believe that a radioactive spider can give you powers and that gamma rays can do the same I need most everything else to at least fairly resemble reality. So no, it's not ridiculous, and clearly there are plenty of people in this thread that feel the same way. 

In regards to the better base, its NOT beside the point, because even though you say you aren't comparing the sexes that's exactly what you are doing. You are asking why they wouldn't modify women to compensate for the the added weight. Well here's why I brought up base stats. Why modify a woman to match a male's carrying load, when you could just modify a male and make that load heavier. More is never a bad thing if doesn't affect performance. 

I again was NOT comparing males and females for real world examples (why do people's minds always go there?); I was merely pointing out that they do exist if you cannot think of any yourself.  Just because you haven't met any or cannot conjure an example at the top of your head, does not mean that they do not exist.  Of course there are more examples of males seeing as males have had a longer history of that--not my point.  And you are yet again applying today's world to the futuristic setting of ME.  Take into account at least some evolution and possibility; at least stop using fallacious arguments.

I'm a military vet and you thought I needed reminded that women can attain rank in the military? It didn't prove anything, which is essentially what I replied. And as for fallacious arguments. 

main entry: fal-la-cious
date: 1509 
1. embodying a fallacy 
2. tending to deceive or mislead 

Nothing I've posted meets that definition. Please don't use pad your posts with words to make you look smart when they don't fit your argument.

Modifié par sinosleep, 22 février 2010 - 03:52 .

[sinosleep]

expletive deleted

Modifié par sinosleep, 22 février 2010 - 03:27 .

[Blackveldt]

*Sigh*

When I mentioned fallacious arguments, I was talking about specific fallacies you incorporated in your argument. Like the fact that you are a "Veteran" is a common fallacy known as 'appeal to authority.' 'Appeal to ignorance' was your original argument which is another fallacy. I didn't want to nitpick every fallacy in your argument so I clumped it together as 'fallacies.'

It was a minor point; I didn't want to make a big deal out of it.

Modifié par Blackveldt, 22 février 2010 - 05:14 .

[sinosleep]

If you go off of #2, which was the first thing that came to mind, it isn't a minor point, it's a major accusation against someone's character and thus a big deal.

[Nibroc17]

The default male shepard is the best everything else is ugly and its very hard to get a good looking female shepard that doesn't look to go so you feel like like she should be a model for Victorias secret instead. I'm a bastard for saying this but im sexist when it comes to games i dont like doing female heroic main characters because first of im a guy i like to put my self in the characters place to make it more imaginable and funner. and secondly the only difference between male and female vo i can tell is that one is male and the other is female so i don't know what people are complaing about, saying the fems is better maybe hotter but its sound to im a woman and i we deserve to be treated equally, but then when you get what you want uou complain about something else... You dont ever hear a guy complaing that he isn't being treated equally. Sorry lol if i offended any women...

[STBez]

Alzodin wrote...

Yeah but most military guys do. you are trained to not show emotion.

I would have to disagree... As I live in a  family full of military men and their friends.

[Phosfor]

I like MaleShep better in ME and ME2 because although Jennifer Hale is one of the best voice actresses out there right now, in my opinion she did a terrible job in both Mass Effect games as FemShep. Her range was from slightly constipated to just pissed off. MaleShep has a bit more range in his VO.

[Posioned]

Phosfor wrote...

I like MaleShep better in ME and ME2 because although Jennifer Hale is one of the best voice actresses out there right now, in my opinion she did a terrible job in both Mass Effect games as FemShep. Her range was from slightly constipated to just pissed off. MaleShep has a bit more range in his VO.

And I have to disagree. I found his voice rather flat most of the time. Like he was reading a manual or something. While Hales VO work I found a lot better. Well except when it came to talking to Jacob most of the time. But that's just differences in opinion.

[Valentyna]

Ever since I started ME1, Shepard has been a woman in my head. Ive tried to run through the game on a male character but I can never make it to the end. Sometimes when people refer to Shepard as a 'him', it actually does take me a minute to remember that he's male to most people.

[Christmas Ape]

Valentyna wrote...

Ever since I started ME1, Shepard has been a woman in my head. Ive tried to run through the game on a male character but I can never make it to the end. Sometimes when people refer to Shepard as a 'him', it actually does take me a minute to remember that he's male to most people.

I tend to hate such pointless responses as I'm about to offer, but:
+1. Stole the words from my forebrain.

[greed89]

Male shep cause Femshep sounds bored Especialy during the epic speeches



Speaking of which why doesn't Maleshep have a fan-thread?

[NICKjnp]

Manshep...



Start a Manshep thread if you feel one is lacking.

[jlb524]

Valentyna wrote...

Ever since I started ME1, Shepard has been a woman in my head. Ive tried to run through the game on a male character but I can never make it to the end. Sometimes when people refer to Shepard as a 'him', it actually does take me a minute to remember that he's male to most people.

This.

[Collider]

Both

Modifié par Collider, 27 juillet 2010 - 03:01 .

[Lotto]

i'm surprised by how many people prefer the female voice. male shep pulls off funny lines way better imo.

[Kronner]

Lotto wrote...

i'm surprised by how many people prefer the female voice. male shep pulls off funny lines way better imo.

Yes, it seems that way to me too. I have about 9 or 10 maleSheps (default version) and 1 female Engineer (thanks Xhyn for the headmorph btw ). The voice of Mark Meer is much better suited for military officier, while Jennifer Hale sounds just weird, I do not like her voice at all - she often overplays way too much. Just my opinion anyways. I still got through the game with her, but I much prefer the maleShep.

Modifié par Kronner, 27 juillet 2010 - 12:30 .

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

Maleshep, just from experience.



Kind of a pointless thread really though, since the only reason it exists is because the maleshep/femshep choice is doing what its supposed to.



I hate femsheps voice acting in ME. I tried to start a playthrough in ME1 once and I couldnt stand it. Its a sad day for me when I have to say Jennifer Hales voice acting, which is normally top notch, sounds fake.



Thats all it is really. Nothing to do with "womens combat effectiveness" or any other real life argument, its simply I play a maleshep, and I dont like femsheps.



Of course, this isnt a gender issue either. I dont connect with Sheploo, or other peoples malesheps.



So yeah, theres the answer: male, but Im not quite sure what it gives the topic really.

[Wulf19]

Given it's mentioned all Alliance soldiers receive genetic alteration to exceed normal physical/mental limitations, a female Shepard certainly isn't the biggest example of having to suspend one's disbelief in the ME universe. By the time we get to the second game she/he is a full on cyborg-badass so it makes it even more plausible - within the constraints of ME's universe. If you play your femshep as a biotic, then her actual physical strength becomes even less relevant since she can just toss her enemies around with her mind. Yay magic!

People pulling out links to real world studies and such are forgetting that most of the things Shepard does are so utterly silly and unrealistic that one one would be capable of doing them in reality, male or female. It's fantasy.

And Shepard isn't the only thing in ME Bioware has taken creative liberties with... Every alien is more or less humanoid (with a couple of exceptions), speaks english, have near-human cultures and habits, and breathe oxygen. I once saw people arguing about disliking certain alien characters because they were "too human" which made me laugh - they're all VERY human, we wouldn't really relate to them much if they weren't.

No point in getting into the rest of it - 'magical' mass effect powers, Shep's resurrection following being spaced and slamming into a planet... I'm sure if we review current facts/theories about space, space aliens, or being dead we would note that Bioware has maybe taken some liberties and the list is very long. ME would be a horrible game if they hadn't, where you'd simply probably die the first time you got shot in the head. Most fictional movies, books, games, ect aren't about mimicking reality, they're actually often an escape from it's stresses. They resemble it, but deviation from it is part of the point in their creation as well.

People get defensive about the reality they set up in their ME storyline, and I get that. For example, while I'm sure I'll see the movie should that ever see the light of day, I have no interest in the comics or books because to me Shepard is female. That's not because those books are BAD, they just don't interest me. That's my personal opinion - the internet and the world would be such a better place if we could all learn the difference between opinion and fact, and if we could respect others opinions. I bet we'd see a whole lot less of threads getting locked over stupid pointless arguments that go nowhere and resolve nothing.

But I digress... a lot... Bioware has clearly adopted the default male Shepard as "The Shepard", so if that's what the point of this thread is, there you go. No real arguement there. But I say femshep all the way. I'd love it if Bioware would "offically" put a female in the lead role for one of their future games as far as books/movies/advertising related to the product. In the mean time I'm just happy that Bioware allows us to play a female character since so many game companies don't bother. People do have a point about the female being very difficult to customize to be good looking but not a barbie doll... Hopefully they can fix this a little in ME3? *winkwinknudgenudge* Tone her up a little to (athlete levels, not weight lifter, that is), she's too damn tiny.

[Gilsa]

I'm old enough to remember when there were only a handful of games with female leads in them. My favorite FPS game used to be Duke Nukem-- a guy who wisecracked his way through game with his guns blazing and indulged in his vices as he openly appreciated the women he came across. I relive this experience vicariously through Mass Effect with a bleached blonde gal who can snark and shoot with the best of them along with having the option to appreciate the asari dancers. I don't really care about the suspension of belief or studies of whether or not a woman can pull the physical stuff off, blah blah. Don't overthink it. It's supposed to be fun game, period.