120 réponses à ce sujet

[Lmaoboat]

Willowhugger wrote...

InvaderErl wrote...

I don't really see the need to attack the OP on this. Even if you disagree with his interpretation its not as if he came screaming OH MY LORD BIOWARE HATES TEH BLACK PEOPLEZ.

I'm not thin skinned.  I knew by starting this post, people would question if I was being oversensitive.  I don't think Bioware is a bunch of racists or sexists, I do wonder if the adventure is using a discredited storytelling trope set, though, which relies a little too much on early 20th century stereotypes.  Also, I wonder if any female or black gamers may have found the portrayal offensive.

In any case, I'm just a bit upset given that Jacob is one of the few black heroes in gaming.

What trope is that? I don't remember many 20th century stories where a shipscrashes on a tropical paradise with food that turns people stupid, and then a back guy steals the rations and enslaves everyone.

[Nkyinkyin]

I can definitely understand where the OP is coming from. Many times in American media Black males are portrayed has overly sexual people. A derogatory term that is used for Blacks is jungle bunnies, I can understand the connection. Jacob then comes from a single parent home. All stereotypes of the Black males.



Why couldn't the father have been involved in some white collar crimes?



White privilege is not a topic usually discussed in science fiction because it's usually a species thing. Yet the vast majority of hero characters and NPCs are European.



Why does it matter? For some people perception is reality. If you never see any minority heroes you may believe that there aren't any.



Just my sixty two cents.

[KingusJamus]

This is getting ridiculous. All this reading between the lines, trying to find racism when it's not really there. This causes more trouble than anything if you ask me.

[KainrycKarr]

Nkyinkyin wrote...

I can definitely understand where the OP is coming from. Many times in American media Black males are portrayed has overly sexual people. A derogatory term that is used for Blacks is jungle bunnies, I can understand the connection. Jacob then comes from a single parent home. All stereotypes of the Black males.

Why couldn't the father have been involved in some white collar crimes?

White privilege is not a topic usually discussed in science fiction because it's usually a species thing. Yet the vast majority of hero characters and NPCs are European.

Why does it matter? For some people perception is reality. If you never see any minority heroes you may believe that there aren't any.

Just my sixty two cents.

So the idea is to appeal to complete and utter morons?

I'm sorry, but it's only racist if you acknowledge his skin color. Otherwise, it's just a GUY.

[cronshaw8]

Lmaoboat wrote...

Willowhugger wrote...

InvaderErl wrote...

I don't really see the need to attack the OP on this. Even if you disagree with his interpretation its not as if he came screaming OH MY LORD BIOWARE HATES TEH BLACK PEOPLEZ.

I'm not thin skinned.  I knew by starting this post, people would question if I was being oversensitive.  I don't think Bioware is a bunch of racists or sexists, I do wonder if the adventure is using a discredited storytelling trope set, though, which relies a little too much on early 20th century stereotypes.  Also, I wonder if any female or black gamers may have found the portrayal offensive.

In any case, I'm just a bit upset given that Jacob is one of the few black heroes in gaming.

What trope is that? I don't remember many 20th century stories where a shipscrashes on a tropical paradise with food that turns people stupid, and then a back guy steals the rations and enslaves everyone.

I think he is refering to the "black men are sexualy devient devils who want to impregnate all our white women" thing. Which actualy was a very common stereotype up until quite recently

[Count Viceroy]

Everyone is offended by something somewhere. I'm personally offended by the color green.

[Hellebore5000]

cronshaw8 wrote...

Lmaoboat wrote...

Willowhugger wrote...

InvaderErl wrote...

I don't really see the need to attack the OP on this. Even if you disagree with his interpretation its not as if he came screaming OH MY LORD BIOWARE HATES TEH BLACK PEOPLEZ.

I'm not thin skinned.  I knew by starting this post, people would question if I was being oversensitive.  I don't think Bioware is a bunch of racists or sexists, I do wonder if the adventure is using a discredited storytelling trope set, though, which relies a little too much on early 20th century stereotypes.  Also, I wonder if any female or black gamers may have found the portrayal offensive.

In any case, I'm just a bit upset given that Jacob is one of the few black heroes in gaming.

What trope is that? I don't remember many 20th century stories where a shipscrashes on a tropical paradise with food that turns people stupid, and then a back guy steals the rations and enslaves everyone.

I think he is refering to the "black men are sexualy devient devils who want to impregnate all our white women" thing. Which actualy was a very common stereotype up until quite recently

Maybe its because I'm not originally from America, but I've never even heard of that stereotype :/

This whole thread seems like people are walking 10 miles past a river to get a glass of water.

[cvantez]

First of all, when having these sorts of discussions it's important to talk about the nature of the action/story/word/whatever and not the person who said it. For example, say a fellow named Jim uses the "n-word" in a state of anger. It's much better to say "the use of the n-word is racist" than "Jim used the N-word; Jim is a racist." When you take the focus away from the actual action to the intent of the person any chance at a civilized and productive dialogue vanishes. I can't say whether Jim is a racist or not, that's an internal thing that I can't see. But I can say that the "n-word" has definite racist connotations.



anyway



The OP does make some interesting points. For instance, the most frequent justification for lynching in the early 20th Century was that a black man had raped a white woman. Black men were, and still are, frequently portrayed as oversexualized and dangerous to white women. In the context of, for example, a lynching this portrayal is both racist and sexist. The racism is apparent, but the sexism is more subtle. It essentially states that women are weak, not capable of being in control of their own sexuality, and that their sexuality belongs to white men.



Now, again, that is in an entirely different context than Jacob's quest in ME2. While racism and sexism still exist (including on an institutional level), I don't think it can be argued that this quest was either, based on the context. Bioware seemed to be emphasizing the dangers of absolute power, and any elements that shared characteristics with racist/sexist tropes were accidental.



But, there are obviously similarities in the narratives, which is why it's good to have these discussions, and not dismiss them with a .gif of Colin Farrell wanking it.

[Darth_Ultima]

I can see how this mission would be considered sexist. However, I fail to see how this mission could be considered racist.



Personally I like that it shows Jacobs character in stark contrast to that of his fathers.

[cvantez]

cronshaw8 wrote...



I think he is refering to the "black men are sexualy devient devils who want to impregnate all our white women" thing. Which actualy was a very common stereotype up until quite recently

It's actually still very common.  When you look at stastics for the way rape is protrayed in the media and in who is convicted and sent to prison for the crime, black males commiting "stranger rape" of white women are dispproportionately represented.  In reality, most rape is "acquaintance" rape (in which the victim knows his or her attacker) and the victim and rapist much more frequently the same race. 

[tertium organum]

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

Racism only exists in your head. If someone attacks people because they have a certain skin color/DNA then it is simply a crime. But racism as a concept only exist in ones head.

So if you think that is racist, you sir, are the one most attracted to what you find disturbing.

Sorry for beeing harsh, but that's it.

A "crime" is only in your head as well -it's a human concept that distinguishes approved social actions  from disapproved one. Neither the universe nor nature is concerned about "crimes."

I don't think the scenario is racist at all ( Bioware is quite progressive in this area) but I hate dimwit responses like this. It's very easy to expose the shallowness of  how many people think - they never think how it applies to their own position. The above is case in point locating racism in the 'head' where all human actions that mean anything are exactly there, "in the head."  Sorry for being harsh, but that's it. ******.

[Jc21088]

Maybe Bioware should make the characters in ME3 be gray rectangles and speak in some neutral auto tone voice as not to offend anyone?

Wait.. would that be racist or sexist to the squares or other shapes? What about the other colors too we shouldn't neglect them right?

I'm not sure what they should do about the story though. Maybe the should just make ME3 be a remake of pong so the story doesn't offend anyone. But then again those damn racist lines beat around and oppress the poor ball. Shouldn't the ball get equal time hitting the lines across the screen too?

I guess Bioware should just make it so that when you put the game in and get past the starting menu the screen goes black and says, "We regret to inform you that due to the many threads stating that ME2 was racist, sexist, and whatever else people chose to complain about, we have left out all forms of characters and plot in ME3. Instead of 40 hours plus of gameplay we have replaced it with 40 hours plus of Puppies From Around The World!. Enjoy!"

Modifié par Jc21088, 19 février 2010 - 07:17 .

[Hellebore5000]

There were white officers who were committing these sex crimes too. Most noticeably the one who mentions it being easier with the fruit in his log. If anything that mission is being sexist against males for using the stereotype of men always being the predator

[Ecael]

Darth_Ultima wrote...

I can see how this mission would be considered sexist. However, I fail to see how this mission could be considered racist.

Personally I like that it shows Jacobs character in stark contrast to that of his fathers.

I agree. Jacob is probably the most stable and most reliable squadmate in the game (when you consider all the hangups and grudges the other characters have). Unfortunately BioWare gave him a bad set of abilities - Grunt being superior in every way - so most people won't use him.

[KingusJamus]

Jc21088 wrote...

I guess Bioware should just make it so that when you put the game in and get past the starting menu the screen goes black and says, "We regret to inform you that due to the many threads stating that ME2 was racist, sexist, and whatever else people chose to complain about, we have left out all forms of characters and plot in ME3. Instead of 40 hours plus of gameplay we have replaced it with 40 hours plus of Puppies From Around The World!. Enjoy!"

Why puppies?   What about kittens?  Or baby bears?  Thats racist.

[KainrycKarr]

Wanna know how to make the racism go away? STOP GIVING A CRAP IF THE CHARACTER IS BLACK OR WHITE OR YELLOW OR PURPLE.



The story is what it is. The game not ONCE mentions skin color to my knowledge. THAT would be racist.

[Juztinb42]

This is what is wrong with society...everyone is so freakin' concerned with offending even the smallest minority that they are afraid to do anything remotely outside of the box.  And it is completely warranted, there are so many people (like the OP) who jump at the first sight of any sort of discrimination whether it makes sense or not.  The OP is like that moron that sued McDonald's because his coffee was too hot.

Guess what people!  It's the 21st Century!  Not all white people hate black people and are always looking to put them down with everything they do.  Stop living in the past!  White people are no longer going to be the majority in the US in 2047, (used to be 2050, so the year is swiftly getting closer) that's not that far away.

If people really were racist and are all Jacob-haters, don't you think the US would not have elected Obama?

Edit:  It would have been more racist for them to not even put a black character in the game.

Modifié par Juztinb42, 19 février 2010 - 07:24 .

[Valmy]

Nkyinkyin wrote...

White privilege is not a topic usually discussed in science fiction because it's usually a species thing. Yet the vast majority of hero characters and NPCs are European.

Is this a slam on Mass Effect?  Because I thought they did an excellent job making most of the Characters brown skinned and obviously mixtures of various races.  Even their names are multi-cultural.

I guess this could be an attack on Star Wars and Star Trek and the whole Sci Fi genre I suppose.

[Habelo]

lol epic parradox willowhugger!

either you are a failing racist or you are a winning troll.

edit: and well it would be more realistic if everyone was white. Cause looking at the world now... it doesnt look like the coming generation is gonna still surf on this "anti-racism" wave that much longer...

Modifié par Habelo, 19 février 2010 - 07:28 .

[Valmy]

Hellebore5000 wrote...

There were white officers who were committing these sex crimes too. Most noticeably the one who mentions it being easier with the fruit in his log. If anything that mission is being sexist against males for using the stereotype of men always being the predator

And how the males eventually become barbaric and aggressive as their brains degenerate...while the females become submissive.  Implications unpleasant for both genders...

[R34P3RR3D33M3R]

Oh, so in order to prevent people from shouting "RACISM!", we'd have to have all bad people in the game to be white, and all good people to be black, yes?

In Mass Effect, there are good white people and bad white people. Good black people and bad black people. Good asians and bad asians and so on. The only "racism" you may find in Mass Effect is speciesism.

Finding Jacob's loyalty mission disturbing is perfectly fine. But calling it sexist? Would you have preferred if he'd have made both the women AND men his toys?

[TerribleTruth]

Everyone knows Bioware is racist.

1. No Jungle fever romance option for males
2. No ghetto voice option for black Shepard

Modifié par TerribleTruth, 19 février 2010 - 07:30 .

[cvantez]

Juztinb42 wrote...

This is what is wrong with society...everyone is so freakin' concerned with offending even the smallest minority that they are afraid to do anything remotely outside of the box.  And it is completely warranted, there are so many people (like the OP) who jump at the first sight of any sort of discrimination whether it makes sense or not.  The OP is like that moron that sued McDonald's because his coffee was too hot.

Guess what people!  It's the 21st Century!  Not all white people hate black people and are always looking to put them down with everything they do.  Stop living in the past!  White people are no longer going to be the majority in the US in 2047, (used to be 2050, so the year is swiftly getting closer) that's not that far away.

If people really were racist and are all Jacob-haters, don't you think the US would not have elected Obama?

Edit:  It would have been more racist for them to not even put a black character in the game.

No, white people do not all hate black people. But there are definite descrepencies that exist in the treatement and lives of "others" when compared to that of the main group of any given society.  In the Western World, up until very, very recently, white heterosexual men were the dominant force in society. They held the most power and could directly effect the lives of the "other."

I don't think the OP is screaming "ooooooo bioware is sooo racist11!!!", he was putting forward his interepertation of one aspect of the game and asking for input from other players.  This is called a discussion, and they're a good thing.  It is important to examine the implications of everything and pay close attention to the intersection of things like race/gender/sexuality/socio-economic class/etc, not to set up a lawsuit or to make a problem out of nothing, but rather, to ensure that the "other" is not being ****ed over.


Edit: wealthy, white heterosexual men were the dominant force in society*

Modifié par cvantez, 19 février 2010 - 07:37 .

[Willowhugger]

Habelo wrote...

lol epic parradox willowhugger!

either you are a failing racist or you are a winning troll.

Well I'm of mixed race myself, so it's kind of important to me.

There was a popular stereotype in the turn of the century also, forwarded by many Pulp Writers like Robert E. Howard (to a lesser extent) and Edgar Rice Burroughs (to a far greater extent) that blacks were essentially more savage and vulnerable to falling prey to primitive urges than white people.  Essentially, that blacks were closer to nature and more inclined to be physically agreessive and primitive than white folks.  This is part of where the stereotype of the "Powerful Scary Black Man" comes from.

As a note, I don't believe Bioware was racist.   I do think that they used a backdrop that had some racist imagery in it though.

Modifié par Willowhugger, 19 février 2010 - 07:44 .