120 réponses à ce sujet

[Willowhugger]

The question isn't whether the writers were making a racial statement. The question was actually whether it was a good thing to make Jacob's father the lead villain in the adventure with such racially charged imagery.

[cvantez]

Valmy wrote...

cvantez wrote...
man, people like you suck all the fun out of white male privilege....

Benifiting from fact that men earn more money than women for the same work just isn't enjoyable when you know it exists....

How exactly does that work anyway?  I would like my little male pay boost over my female coworkers one of these days.

Anyway that probably will not last too much longer.  These days women are getting better educated and we are falling behind.  Well I am not I am talking about the rest of you guys.

On average, women still earn around 75 cents on the dollar to men's wages.  And it's not just related to men and women who work the same job where women get paid less (which definitely exists) it's also related to the devaluing of what is considered "women's work."  Jobs which are  female dominated frequently are paid far less than jobs that are male dominated, often for no discernable reason other than that those jobs have been historically associated with "women's work."
And yeah, women are catching up, but considering all branches of US government and the boards of the most powerful corporations are heavily male weighted, gender equity, let alone domination by women, is still a ways off.

[Alexandus]

OP, I am positive that it wasn't Bioware's intent to do what you are insinuating.



If all of us were that politically-correct-sensitive, society would be boring as all get out.



Have you noticed that most villains in movies are rich white men? Being white myself, I don't take offense to that or whine about it because I really don't care what Hollywood does or thinks. If you take offense to something, just ask yourself why you should give a @@@@ what they think.



Yes, Racism and Stereotyping exist. I dare say they will exist as long as we do. Humanity evolved such a mindset for a reason.



Let me provide an example.



Caveman: Oh hello mister Lion. I know the others run away from you, but they're just a bunch of ignorant Species-ists! We know better, because we are progressive!



Lion: *opens jaws*



Natural selection be praised

[KainrycKarr]

Willowhugger wrote...

The question isn't whether the writers were making a racial statement. The question was actually whether it was a good thing to make Jacob's father the lead villain in the adventure with such racially charged imagery.

Except it's only racially charged if you actively make note of the fact that he's black.

If he's white, then he's just a douche. If he's black, suddenly it's a stereotype and racially charged imagery.

That in and of itself indicates there is a difference that is in direct correlation of skin tone.

Which is racist.

[shinobi602]

The Governator wrote...

That's where I am at.  Human subdivisions are meaningless.  The only races I see are Humans, Quarians, Turians, Asari, Salarians, Elcor, Drell, Hanar, Vorcha, Batarian and Volus.

Yea? You got something against Krogan? huh? HUH!?

[Valmy]

cvantez wrote...
On average, women still earn around 75 cents on the dollar to men's wages.  And it's not just related to men and women who work the same job where women get paid less (which definitely exists) it's also related to the devaluing of what is considered "women's work."  Jobs which are  female dominated frequently are paid far less than jobs that are male dominated, often for no discernable reason other than that those jobs have been historically associated with "women's work."
And yeah, women are catching up, but considering all branches of US government and the boards of the most powerful corporations are heavily male weighted, gender equity, let alone domination by women, is still a ways off.

Well...I would rather they not be catching up simply because men are not taking care of business and going to college.  The depressing failure of young men as a group should not be seen as some sort of gender positive thing IMO but that is another thing entirely.

Ok you said they get paid less for doing the same work.  Now you are saying they get paid less for doing different work which is something else entirely.  Do you have any specific examples of 'womens work' being devalued?  I mean of the three traditionally female jobs: administration, nursing, and teaching the latter two are rather well compensated.

We also have to take into account that gender equality has really been something we have been striving for for a relatively short time.  It will take awhile for the old fossils to old traditions to be totally swept away.  I mean the powerful head spots contain men who came up in the 60s and 70s still.

Modifié par Valmy, 19 février 2010 - 09:19 .

[Alexandus]

shinobi602 wrote...

The Governator wrote...

That's where I am at.  Human subdivisions are meaningless.  The only races I see are Humans, Quarians, Turians, Asari, Salarians, Elcor, Drell, Hanar, Vorcha, Batarian and Volus.

Yea? You got something against Krogan? huh? HUH!?

Batarians, Vorcha, and Hanar are on my hitlist.

The rest can stay. Especially Krogan, who are badass.

[Willowhugger]

Except it's only racially charged if you actively make note of the fact that he's black.

If he's white, then he's just a douche. If he's black, suddenly it's a stereotype and racially charged imagery.

That in and of itself indicates there is a difference that is in direct correlation of skin tone.

Which is racist.

Yes, in the context of being sensitive to racial imagery.  In which case, racism loses its punch as an insult.

Modifié par Willowhugger, 19 février 2010 - 09:20 .

[NuclearBuddha]

KainrycKarr wrote...

Willowhugger wrote...

The question isn't whether the writers were making a racial statement. The question was actually whether it was a good thing to make Jacob's father the lead villain in the adventure with such racially charged imagery.

Except it's only racially charged if you actively make note of the fact that he's black.

If he's white, then he's just a douche. If he's black, suddenly it's a stereotype and racially charged imagery.

That in and of itself indicates there is a difference that is in direct correlation of skin tone.

Which is racist.

QTF.

[Alexandus]

NuclearBuddha wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

Willowhugger wrote...

The question isn't whether the writers were making a racial statement. The question was actually whether it was a good thing to make Jacob's father the lead villain in the adventure with such racially charged imagery.

Except it's only racially charged if you actively make note of the fact that he's black.

If he's white, then he's just a douche. If he's black, suddenly it's a stereotype and racially charged imagery.

That in and of itself indicates there is a difference that is in direct correlation of skin tone.

Which is racist.

QTF.

Truth.

[Lonely_Fat_Guy]

Willowhugger wrote...

InvaderErl wrote...

I don't really see the need to attack the OP on this. Even if you disagree with his interpretation its not as if he came screaming OH MY LORD BIOWARE HATES TEH BLACK PEOPLEZ.

I'm not thin skinned.  I knew by starting this post, people would question if I was being oversensitive.  I don't think Bioware is a bunch of racists or sexists, I do wonder if the adventure is using a discredited storytelling trope set, though, which relies a little too much on early 20th century stereotypes.  Also, I wonder if any female or black gamers may have found the portrayal offensive.

In any case, I'm just a bit upset given that Jacob is one of the few black heroes in gaming.

how is it racist?
when ever a person is a badguy and he is white its ok, when he sint its racism.

americans are WAYYYY TOO sencetive with race. its absurd, you cant even portrai a black/asian/latin man as a human, they must be semi-perfect?

noncense, were all humans, the nly difrence is the looks, our emotions and the rest behind the exteriour is the same. america needs to get over this.

[Lonely_Fat_Guy]

jacksmedula1 wrote...

I think I'll turn to Colin Farrell to sum up this post:

hahaha epic

[Skilled Seeker]

TerribleTruth wrote...

I'll explain it for you white people who don't understand.

A black guy who isn't a stereotype will cringe any time a black person does anything stereotypical. They want the stereotype to disappear, so any further examples of it are depressing. This comic will explain:

lol I know what you mean. I'm arabic and so I always cringe when I hear about some terrorism plot on the news.

[Sharn01]

I never saw any racism in this story. I did bother me a little that the women where apparently so frail and helpless that they could not fight back despite outnumbering their captor's after he cleaned house, but they do not present how many men there origonally where, and how many people lost their sanity prior to the house cleaning.

[Nimander]

I don't think it's racist. Yes, Jacob's father was a rapist pig.



Jacob's an upright guy. Anderson's one of the most /awesome/ characters in the entire series. Tons of mixed-race 'dark skin' people exist in the series. Kaidan looks kind of a mixture of African, Indonesian, with some Caucasian around the eyes. Having one guy there does not speak of racism.



Reminds me of the Positive Discrimination trope from TVTropes -- a lot of times, writers are so afraid of being called racist that the minority becomes perfect, which has its own issues altogether.



This reminds me of the furor way back when L4D2 was coming out that they had black zombies in it as well as white zombies, and that was racist.



In New Orleans. The place where like two thirds of the population are of African descent.

[Lightice_av]

It's not least bit racist. You could switch Jacob and his father for white guys without changing a single line or plot point. That's what equal opportunities means. It wouldbe racist to shy away from ever showing a black guy in a bad light. They have the same right to be villainous bastards as the rest of us.

I did bother me a little that the women where apparently so frail and
helpless that they could not fight back despite outnumbering their
captor's after he cleaned house

At that point they were hopelessly retarded and severely brainwashed. It's unlikely that men would have ended up any different in the same circumstances. The aggressive men were different because they had been treated entirely diffferently from the women.

Modifié par Lightice_av, 19 février 2010 - 11:17 .

[AtreiyaN7]

You cited the whole Lord of the Flies feel and Heart of Darkness. Are we missing the obviously DARK aspects of Jacob's loyalty mission? It, like the stories mentioned above, was meant to show what happens when power is abused and a society implodes, with all moral rules/codes/niceties thrown out the window.

[Willowhugger]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

You cited the whole Lord of the Flies feel and Heart of Darkness. Are we missing the obviously DARK aspects of Jacob's loyalty mission? It, like the stories mentioned above, was meant to show what happens when power is abused and a society implodes, with all moral rules/codes/niceties thrown out the window.

Oh I definitely believe that was the theme.

[tango jack]

Where did racism come into the mission?

It was purely a power trip on the part of Jacobs father which could have effected anyone but just so happened that he was in the position to exploit the others and fell prey to his ego and vanity.

I think it was more a story of inevitable justice that befalls all who follow such a path and with Jacobs father it was poetic that it was his son that delivered that justice upon him and I suppose its all about that old saying...

" what goes around comes around "

On a personal note I found this to be one of the more powerful loyalty missions and quite a thought invoking one at that.

Modifié par tango jack, 20 février 2010 - 01:15 .

[yuncas]

Willowhugger wrote...

Did anyone else find this adventure to be a trifle uncomfortable?  I very much enjoyed the adventure.  It's a classic Apocalypse Now meets Lord of the Flies style adventure with an Arthur C. Clark twist.  However, the simple fact is that I'm not sure it was all that enjoyable with the implied rape and misogyny.  Not to mention, the fact that Jacob Taylor (one of the most progressive black characters in video games) gets saddled with a father who ends up being the savage Jungle King.

It's pretty troubling to me.

Perhaps you read too much into the imagery. You see what's not their because you want to see it.  I'm sure I could be perfectly offended at Harkin being a corrupt cop and a criminal. And rape and misogyny? The world can be a very unfriendly place. I think portraying something in a negative light that actually happens is good. Maybe someone will for the first time see how ****ED rape is. And so what if a black man is the evil instigator of this disturbing story, a morally upright and strong black man puts an end to all of it. I believe it's a good representation of man's, any man's, potential for good or for evil.   

Modifié par yuncas, 20 février 2010 - 01:33 .

[Hellebore5000]

I just played the mission again, the 3rd women to talk to you is black. Also, the Doctor who progresses the mission is black..  It isn't just white women being made slaves. The only criticism that could be logically made is that it is sexist, not racist. Its only racist if you think black people could never do this, and if you think that, you are racist.  It is also only sexist if you believe the drivel that the brains of men and women are exactly the same.

Also, replaying it I think the OP is correct, it is Lord of the Flies influenced, but I think Lord of the Flies is commentary on Humanity without restraints, not on Whites.  

I think Sci FI is wonderful for bringing us together as humans, atleast so we can all be racist against someone outside our star system and love our fellow humans

Modifié par Hellebore5000, 21 février 2010 - 11:45 .