160 réponses à ce sujet

[Reginmund]

T0paze wrote...

So, Shepard has defeated the Collectors. Why?

Because the Collectors were a threat to humanity.
How so?
The were conducting experiments to create a giant Human Reaper (and, in general, find ways in which the Reapers would develop in the future).
How did they do that?
By abducting human colonists and using them as test subjects.
What were their plans?
To attack Earth, since they would need many more humans.
Would they succeed alone?
No. Shepard and his team (11 people in total) destroyed a collector base, effectively ruining their plans. Collectors may have had superior technologies, but it's obvious that they wouldn't be able to attack any major power (e.g. the Human Alliance) on their own.
So, how would they do that?
With the help of the Reapers.
But the Reapers are still going to attack!

Which means that ME2 basically tells a story about saving a few human colonies, because everything else would still happen in ME3. A noble goal, certainly, but what's the deal with all that hype about saving humanity? Actually, the only reason Shepard is needed is that the Alliance is (ridiculously) lazy.

I agree with what you say but i also want to point out two things that also made ME2's story less reasonable than the first one.

The First point is as T0paze said, the point of the plot is very weak. Mission is to "save humanity" from destruction by defeating the collectors. I think that in order to save humanity you should be killing the reapers instead of collectors. No point in defeating collectors if in the end there is still no way to defeat the reapers. In addition, it doesn't follow the end of ME1. In the end of the first game, Shepard said he is going to find a way to stop the reaper. Until the end of ME2, we still do not see a clear answer on how to defeat the Reapers (aside from the cliche plot of uniting the galaxy and defeating the reapers. i.e. Shepard goes around the galaxy and persuade Every species to join with humans to fight the reapers)

The Second reason is that the plot about these collectors going around the ME universe to collect humans in order to produce a Human Reaper doesn't really make sense to me Instead of wasting the time and resource to abduct all these humans, they could have just create clones of humans. Collecting DNA from a few colony and you can clone a lot of humans (with DNA diversity too) for your reaper. Since the reaper have the all time they need, it is not too hard for them to wait a few more years for the collectors or whatever their allies are to mass clone humans. 

In short, Collectors are not important at all. 

[Klijpoplayxbox]

Smudboy...

My sims characters are avatars. They do stuff without me acting on them. Shepard is also an avatar, but he doesn't do anything unless I press a button or push a stick. He needs a real person in order to work.

Whether Shepard grows as a leader or not is up to the player. Shepard doesn't have a character until the player invests him with one, by deciding how he will accomplish his goals (within the limits set by Bioware). THe P/R system is a (fairly crude) expression of this. By emphasising a particular way of doing things, Shepard gets better at getting his way, whether through reasoned persuasion or imposing his will through aggression. As more options appear on the dialogue wheel (red and/or blue), that is a visual measure of Shepard's development as a leader.

Yes it is a work of fiction, and has storytelling rules to follow; it is also interactive, and so some of those rules have to expressed in terms of systems, otherwise, it is a linear story, and there's no dialogue wheel, just cutscenes. The player is not following a script; Shepard only has a personality when the player invests him with one. Ergo, these emotional transformations happen to the player, as Shepard the avatar doesn't have any emotions.

You obviously do not know much about interactive theory, so I wouldn't be so arrogant and condescending when you seem to be unaware of some key principles in creating interactive narrative gameplay.

Modifié par Klijpoplayxbox, 22 février 2010 - 10:51 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

As far as I understand it the reapers are hybrid synthetic/organic lifeforms which take the survival of the fittest to the extreme. Their seeds are technology which ensures a certain controlled development of sentient species. They are looking for the dominant species after 50,000 years. They'll actually reap any new technology and traits of the dominant species and include these into their own species. This would ensure that they will be stronger than any species after the harvest. In the previous cycle they've included prothean technology and traits. This time it seems that they have decided to go after humans. Shepard defeating a reaper might have triggered that decision. It looks like they don't have effective reproduction systems, because it apparently takes millions of humans to create that single humanoid reaper.

[anmiro]

I think you need to remember that if things had gone according to plan Earth would be decimated right now by the Reapers. Sovereign screwed up and failed his mission to activate the Citadel Relay. The Collectors were just getting the ball rolling on building some Reapers. Its likely they weren't going to Earth util the Reapers showed up.



By completing the suicide mission, Shepard prevented any new Reapers from being built and any more colonists from being abducted. He uncovers some pretty valuable information proving the Collectors were once Protheans. Also, if you manage to complete the mission without losing anyone, than you have built a pretty amazing team to combat the Reapers in ME3.

[devnullprime]

Here's the thing for me. Yeah the game was great, I liked the broad array of characters, powers, the game mechanics, the dialog system. The story was pretty good too, though the final boss fight seemed kind of a cheesy 1990's boss fight.



But how ME2 fit in the story arch was weak. It didn't seem like an important mission for the galaxy. For humanity, sure, and by extension others, but in ME1 it was clear we were in it for the species and sentient life in general. So stand alone ME2 is good, but connecting to ME1 and what we will assume is a confrontation with the Reaper fleet in ME3, it could have been handled better.



There have been a couple of references to another SF franchise with magic, I mean force, users. What is interesting to me is that the Empire comes out ahead at the end of Part 2 with the Rebellion just surviving. This would have been a more interesting direction (BTW - did anyone else make the connection between death star 2 and reaper 2...anyway, kind of unimaginative to have the same boss).



IMHO it would have been more interesting, and more "darker" - which everyone says part 2 of a trilogy is supposed to be - to have the reapers make a real dent at center of galactic civilization. ME2 would then be about barely surviving this attack with no chance to rebuild until the threat is dealt with. Civilization is down for the count and on the run. Maybe a few species have been annihilated.



So ME1=threat discovered. ME2=O crap, galactic civilization is teetering on the brink, but Shepherd snatches hope from the jaws of oblivion. ME3=the valiant counter-attack that defeats the reapers, DLC (ME+)=the effort to rebuild civilization from its ruins (establish order, trade, rule of law etc).



This post is now long enough.

[Klijpoplayxbox]

Comparisons to other storytelling media are often imperfect. Actually, movies are quite a bad comparison, as there aren't many 40 hour movies out there that I know of.



However, the analogy does work to a certain degree. ME would be more like a novel, one of those 2 inch thick space operas; it has the wonder, the sense of awe, as it paints in the setting, and the story arc, in a broad brush.



ME2 is more like a TV show; it happens in discrete episodes (recruitment/loyalty), that have an overall arc, and is specifically focused on the characters, to make it personal. As Mordin puts it, a threat to the galaxy is abstract, but a threat to your family makes it oh so personal. Your squad becomes your 'family' through the course of the 'season' of episodes.



Actually, the galaxy ain't in that good a shape; the reapers are moving in en masse, and apart from Shep and his crew, no one wants to know. I do think the full impact (and therefore context) of what Shepard's done in ME2 will only become apparent in ME3, along with the impact of the story decisions from ME1. I don't think ME2 really did address the decisions from the first game in any more than sketch form, but I can understand the logistical reasons why. I'd prefer they save it all for ME3 than get so bogged down that the games do not get released.



Also, remember, ME is also a work in progress. If George Lucas had choked on a muffin in 1981, and never made ROTJ, would TESB still be held in as high a regard, given that we do not get a conclusion, it just kinda ends.

[NuclearBuddha]

Missouri Tigers wrote...

They were abducting humans by the thousands.  You can't let that continue.

Hey, look, another person with human feelings!  Just a warning, this might not be the thread for you.

[MechaNut]

One thing I think you guys missed is what Shepard is looking at on the datapad in his hand during the cut scene at the end of the suicide mission. He is looking at the schematic of a Reaper. Who knows exactly what data EDI mined from the Collectors systems during the varius encounters with them (other than the folks at Bioware). Information is power and I'm guessing Shepard has a lot more know than he did at the start.

There are many subtle hints about what is to come if you look for them.

[Daeion]

Collectors should have been the enemy of the first game, then move onto the council being betrayed by one of it's own and actually facing a reaper, and then move onto the reaper invasion.

[tertium organum]

Daeion wrote...

Collectors should have been the enemy of the first game, then move onto the council being betrayed by one of it's own and actually facing a reaper, and then move onto the reaper invasion.

This would have been interesting. Basically, reverse the stories - you defeat the collectors only to discover the real threat are the Reapers who are coming to destroy not just human life but all sentient life in the galaxy. Eliminate the discovery about the Protheans being collectors and have Liara inform of us that in the sequel ( which would simply be ME1) and you have an amazing build up for the finale. You'd also have to eliminate Legion's loyalty mission and rework the Cerberus agenda but structurally this would have been far better.  Heck, you could have  had the same ME1 side missions about Cerberus which only confirm that you  were right to tell them to ****** of as you can in ME2. Instead, we have ME2. I understand folks thinking the story itself is horrifying ( which it is) and on a basic level reasonable but it is not told well at all.  It does not link up well with the first and if you've played the first game, you're still in the same position - you have no idea how to stop the Reapers.  You can't get gung-ho about defeating the Collectors when you already know that the Reapers are not just after humans and pose a far worse threat - we know they took out the Protheans and have been doing this for God knows how long. You can't have such ominous foreboding then do a game that is mostly recruitment with a thin plot that is paced horribly and has no major payoff.


Delusional folks are stil thinking that Bioware  made this game where everyone can die simply to "recruit" a team for ME3 with the further delusions that everything left unexplained was intentional and all will be revealed later. It won't. If we all temper our expectations, ME3 won't make us all furious. They need to fix the story arc - it seems to be descending into silliness. I might not even buy this third book and I've bought all of them so far. Anyway, great characters in this game.  The story is abysmal but I'm on my third playthrough - I particularly like Mordin's loyalty quest and I'll play through quite a few more times just because I enjoy these things and the different classes so much. Nevertheless, I wish it all hanged together better. At this point, I feel like ending the game to "get it over with" just so I can do the good part of the game and not be bothered with it's story. Tha is, not recruit some characters so I can recruit them after the game is over,

Modifié par tertium organum, 23 février 2010 - 06:23 .

[Daeion]

tertium organum wrote...

Daeion wrote...

Collectors should have been the enemy of the first game, then move onto the council being betrayed by one of it's own and actually facing a reaper, and then move onto the reaper invasion.

This would have been interesting. Basically, reverse the stories - you defeat the collectors only to discover the real threat are the Reapers who are coming to destroy not just human life but all sentient life in the galaxy. Eliminate the discovery about the Protheans being collectors and have Liara inform of us that in the sequel ( which would simply be ME1) and you have an amazing build up for the finale. You'd also have to eliminate Legion's loyalty mission and rework the Cerberus agenda but structurally this would have been far better.  Heck, you could have  had the same ME1 side missions about Cerberus which only confirm that you  were right to tell them to ****** of as you can in ME2. Instead, we have ME2. I understand folks thinking the story itself is horrifying ( which it is) and on a basic level reasonable but it is not told well at all.  It does not link up well with the first and if you've played the first game, you're still in the same position - you have no idea how to stop the Reapers.  You can't get gung-ho about defeating the Collectors when you already know that the Reapers are not just after humans and pose a far worse threat - we know they took out the Protheans and have been doing this for God knows how long. You can't have such ominous foreboding then do a game that is mostly recruitment with a thin plot that is paced horribly and has no major payoff.


Delusional folks are stil thinking that Bioware  made this game where everyone can die simply to "recruit" a team for ME3 with the further delusions that everything left unexplained was intentional and all will be revealed later. It won't. If we all temper our expectations, ME3 won't make us all furious. They need to fix the story arc - it seems to be descending into silliness. I might not even buy this third book and I've bought all of them so far. Anyway, great characters in this game.  The story is abysmal but I'm on my third playthrough - I particularly like Mordin's loyalty quest and I'll play through quite a few more times just because I enjoy these things and the different classes so much. Nevertheless, I wish it all hanged together better. At this point, I feel like ending the game to "get it over with" just so I can do the good part of the game and not be bothered with it's story. Tha is, not recruit some characters so I can recruit them after the game is over,

I've said since I finished the game that they should have switched ME and ME2 because it creates more of a build up to ME3 then what we have right now and it's more logical.

I've read the first two books and the comics and I'll get the final two and the new book simply because I love the universe.

I've done 3 play throughs and probably won't do anymore becuase at this point I feel I've seen everything that I need to, even had a paragon shep that let the council die and choose to keep the station.  If they had added some actual Virmire segements where people have to die and you have to decide who, that probably would have added more to the replay, that and if there was an actual inventory so there were new items to find.