102 réponses à ce sujet

[Sharn01]

Kabraxal wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...

Kabraxal wrote...

And if that is what happens and Bioware sells out... well, then they are no longer good developers that deserve praise for games that actually had integrity.  Sacrificing promises and story simply to pander to a larger casual audience is pathetic.  I have no respect for that attitude.

Why bother promising a trilogy where choice matters only to turn around and not deliver a trilogy where choice matters? 

Some believe they already did when they made ME2 with taking little effort to keep Shepard in character or use his/her decision and squadmates from ME1.

There were only a few instances where Shep seemed to break character for me.  And I did not expect the major decisions in ME1 to effect the story until ME3 (save for the Virmire and LI, I expected significant focus in all three games).  ME3 needs to deliver on every choice from these two games and actually be a true conintinuation where choices actually change the third game if Bioware really wants to call these games a trilogy. 

They did not continue the story from ME1 to ME2 with any fluidity, instead they came up with a convoluted story about Shepard being killed and resurrected by an evil terrorist group that Shep has no choice but to work for, all in an attempt to hit the reset button on the game and introduce a mostly new cast of character while also cutting all ties with the old allegiances.

Bioware has bitten off more then they can chew with the way they did ME2 and forcing the reset button, as well as the ending with the possibility of staying with or leaving Cerberus.  If they want to keep the games with full continuity between them, they will almost need two separate games.  Logic dictates that the course of action they will use is to once again find a way to hit the reset button on Shepard, and have past decisions make only minor differences in the game.

They already did it once to force a story line that made no sense for the ME1 Shepard, what is to keep them from useing it again, the game was obviously successful?

Modifié par Sharn01, 19 février 2010 - 11:13 .

[Mox Ruuga]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Enchantment!

Heh heh, at least he seems to enjoy it...

But really, I already know what the Bioware PR will tell us:

"Part of experiencing a great story is meeting new and exciting characters. We've already introduced a few, like Spazz the fierce krogan warrior, Vanna the quarian mechanic, and Chuck the biotic assassin girl. For the most part, the response has been really great, and we are really happy that the fans are so excited! There have been a few concerned voices, but I think most people will enjoy these character at least as much, or even more than the ones from ME2. We haven't forgotten your old favorites, rest assured, heck we love them too! Besides, Jacob has already been confirmed as a returning member of the squad. Once you see what roles the ME2 squaddies play in the story, I'm sure you'll agree it makes perfect sense why most of them won't be joining Commander Shepard on his nigh impossible mission against the Harvesters."

 

[Nozybidaj]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Enchantment!

Heh heh, at least he seems to enjoy it...

But really, I already know what the Bioware PR will tell us:

"Part of experiencing a great story is meeting new and exciting characters. We've already introduced a few, like Spazz the fierce krogan warrior, Vanna the quarian mechanic, and Chuck the biotic assassin girl. For the most part, the response has been really great, and we are really happy that the fans are so excited! There have been a few concerned voices, but I think most people will enjoy these character at least as much, or even more than the ones from ME2. We haven't forgotten your old favorites, rest assured, heck we love them too! Besides, Jacob has already been confirmed as a returning member of the squad. Once you see what roles the ME2 squaddies play in the story, I'm sure you'll agree it makes perfect sense why most of them won't be joining Commander Shepard on his nigh impossible mission against the Harvesters."

 

Hahaha, omg.  I don't know whether that should make me laugh or cry.

Sharn01 wrote...


They did not continue the story from
ME1 to ME2 with any fluidity, instead they came up with a convoluted
story about Shepard being killed and resurrected by an evil terrorist
group that Shep has no choice but to work for, all in an attempt to hit
the reset button on the game and introduce a mostly new cast of
character while also cutting all ties with the old allegiances.

Bioware
has bitten off more then they can chew with the way they did ME2 and
forcing the reset button, as well as the ending with the possibility of
staying with or leaving Cerberus.  If they want to keep the games with
full continuity between them, they will almost need two separate
games.  Logic dictates that the course of action they will use is to
once again find a way to hit the reset button on Shepard, and have past
decisions make only minor differences in game play.

They already
did it once to force a story line that made no sense for the ME1
Shepard, what is to keep them from useing it again, the game was
obviously successful?

And this.  I see nothing that would stop them from doing it again.  "but people love these characters what would be the point of throwing them away?"

Well, that is exctly the question ME1 fans had and you all know how that turned out.

[Kabraxal]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Enchantment!

Heh heh, at least he seems to enjoy it...

But really, I already know what the Bioware PR will tell us:

"Part of experiencing a great story is meeting new and exciting characters. We've already introduced a few, like Spazz the fierce krogan warrior, Vanna the quarian mechanic, and Chuck the biotic assassin girl. For the most part, the response has been really great, and we are really happy that the fans are so excited! There have been a few concerned voices, but I think most people will enjoy these character at least as much, or even more than the ones from ME2. We haven't forgotten your old favorites, rest assured, heck we love them too! Besides, Jacob has already been confirmed as a returning member of the squad. Once you see what roles the ME2 squaddies play in the story, I'm sure you'll agree it makes perfect sense why most of them won't be joining Commander Shepard on his nigh impossible mission against the Harvesters."

 

At which point they notice the empty room that used to filled with Bioware fans.

[Sharn01]

Kabraxal wrote...

Mox Ruuga wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Enchantment!

Heh heh, at least he seems to enjoy it...

But really, I already know what the Bioware PR will tell us:

"Part of experiencing a great story is meeting new and exciting characters. We've already introduced a few, like Spazz the fierce krogan warrior, Vanna the quarian mechanic, and Chuck the biotic assassin girl. For the most part, the response has been really great, and we are really happy that the fans are so excited! There have been a few concerned voices, but I think most people will enjoy these character at least as much, or even more than the ones from ME2. We haven't forgotten your old favorites, rest assured, heck we love them too! Besides, Jacob has already been confirmed as a returning member of the squad. Once you see what roles the ME2 squaddies play in the story, I'm sure you'll agree it makes perfect sense why most of them won't be joining Commander Shepard on his nigh impossible mission against the Harvesters."

 

At which point they notice the empty room that used to filled with Bioware fans.

He made a near direct quote from the statement's they made when releaseing ME2 to the ME1 fans that where upset about there character's not having a role in the game with only a few name changes, and it was still hugely successful.

[Marta Rio]

Nozybidaj wrote...
And this.  I see nothing that would stop them from doing it again.  "but people love these characters what would be the point of throwing them away?"

Well, that is exctly the question ME1 fans had and you all know how that turned out.

Um, well if you were a Tali or Garrus fan, I think it turned out rather well. 

[Kabraxal]

Sharn01 wrote...

Kabraxal wrote...

Mox Ruuga wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Enchantment!

Heh heh, at least he seems to enjoy it...

But really, I already know what the Bioware PR will tell us:

"Part of experiencing a great story is meeting new and exciting characters. We've already introduced a few, like Spazz the fierce krogan warrior, Vanna the quarian mechanic, and Chuck the biotic assassin girl. For the most part, the response has been really great, and we are really happy that the fans are so excited! There have been a few concerned voices, but I think most people will enjoy these character at least as much, or even more than the ones from ME2. We haven't forgotten your old favorites, rest assured, heck we love them too! Besides, Jacob has already been confirmed as a returning member of the squad. Once you see what roles the ME2 squaddies play in the story, I'm sure you'll agree it makes perfect sense why most of them won't be joining Commander Shepard on his nigh impossible mission against the Harvesters."

 

At which point they notice the empty room that used to filled with Bioware fans.

He made a near direct quote from the statement's they made when releaseing ME2 to the ME1 fans that where upset about there character's not having a role in the game with only a few name changes, and it was still hugely successful.

I know what he did.  And that is the point.  I don't think any of the ME1 original fans will take that BS at all, in fact I'm fairly certain most wouldn't buy the game at that point.  Even the new ME fans that came in with this game would balk at that shallow deception. 

Simply put, Bioware has created a monster.  If they do not come through with the promise of a true trilogy (one story, three installments not this bull three stories lightly connected "trilogy"  that is not a trilogy) or on the promise that our decisions actually matter... well, they will be hit and hit hard.  But to actually come through will take a lot of work and money.  Yes, there are a lot of branches.  Yes there are a lot of characters you have to plan around.  And yes that means a lot of working around paragon runs and renegade runs. 

But if Bioware is not willing to make that effort, they should not have opened their mouths and promised their fans that effort was forthcoming.  It is wrong on so many levels.

[Sharn01]

I do not disagree, I was not happy with the implementation of ME2 as a sequal to ME. As a stand alone game it is excellent, had you made a new character that was a Cerberus operative the story would have all fit together perfectly, but that is not what ME2 was, and people love it anyway.



They alienated a lot of ME1 fans, but more then made up the losses with new fans, and still managed to get the ME1 fans to buy the game with promises of how important their choices and character's from ME1 would be in the game, they did not deliver on these promises, but by the time you found this out you where already half way through the game.



So what is to stop them from doing it again, new cast of characters with a couple of returning member's and empty promises that your old team will still have an important non squadmate role?



Even if they appear as squadmates they cant really have any effect on the main story, or even much dialog that is of more then a personal nature since they may not be alive to give that information or be present in a scene. They could make up random dialog that would fit for anyone and just have every voice actor record it, then have them randomly chosen to appear I suppose, but that is pretty cheap in the character developement part of the game.



Then there is the decision on who is backing you, I suppose it could be, disk 1, the Spectre with no power because for some reason we decided to render spectre's impotent in ME2. Disk 2, the story of the Cerberus lap dog with no backbone.

[contown]

Agreed. They already have 16 well-developed squadmates, all of whom Shepard has past experience working with. If they expect us to believe that all 16 of them have something more important to do than stopping the Reapers in ME3 so that they can add in ANOTHER new cast, I'm declaring B-S. If they add any new squaddies in ME3, it should only be two or three. The rest of the characters should be returning ones.

[DigitalMaster37]

But you have to think about how much sense it makes for the last game in a trilogy. The theme has changed.



ME1 - exploration and introductions mixed of course with recruiting



ME2 - Character driven game, recruiting and fleshing out some things.



ME3 - Finishing story arcs. The only reason IMO that you would introduce more characters here is if and only if you plan to use them in future installments. Why introduce new characters that you will have to also finish their entire story within one game. I'm sorry but if ME2 was the end of the series, then all of ME2s characters minus Tali and Garrus would have been pointless and simply pawns. If what I'm thinking is even remotely close to actual reality, then we will see at best two new characters that are minor characters (Zaeedish) that will not have a significant story or purpose.



But that's just my opinion.

[Kabraxal]

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

But you have to think about how much sense it makes for the last game in a trilogy. The theme has changed.

ME1 - exploration and introductions mixed of course with recruiting

ME2 - Character driven game, recruiting and fleshing out some things.

ME3 - Finishing story arcs. The only reason IMO that you would introduce more characters here is if and only if you plan to use them in future installments. Why introduce new characters that you will have to also finish their entire story within one game. I'm sorry but if ME2 was the end of the series, then all of ME2s characters minus Tali and Garrus would have been pointless and simply pawns. If what I'm thinking is even remotely close to actual reality, then we will see at best two new characters that are minor characters (Zaeedish) that will not have a significant story or purpose.

But that's just my opinion.

May your opinion be fact!

.... can't believe I just said that on an internet forum.

[Count Viceroy]

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

But you have to think about how much sense it makes for the last game in a trilogy. The theme has changed.

ME1 - exploration and introductions mixed of course with recruiting

ME2 - Character driven game, recruiting and fleshing out some things.

ME3 - Finishing story arcs. The only reason IMO that you would introduce more characters here is if and only if you plan to use them in future installments. Why introduce new characters that you will have to also finish their entire story within one game. I'm sorry but if ME2 was the end of the series, then all of ME2s characters minus Tali and Garrus would have been pointless and simply pawns. If what I'm thinking is even remotely close to actual reality, then we will see at best two new characters that are minor characters (Zaeedish) that will not have a significant story or purpose.

But that's just my opinion.

[Nozybidaj]

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

But you have to think about how much sense it makes for the last game in a trilogy. The theme has changed.

ME1 - exploration and introductions mixed of course with recruiting

ME2 - Character driven game, recruiting and fleshing out some things.

ME3 - Finishing story arcs. The only reason IMO that you would introduce more characters here is if and only if you plan to use them in future installments. Why introduce new characters that you will have to also finish their entire story within one game. I'm sorry but if ME2 was the end of the series, then all of ME2s characters minus Tali and Garrus would have been pointless and simply pawns. If what I'm thinking is even remotely close to actual reality, then we will see at best two new characters that are minor characters (Zaeedish) that will not have a significant story or purpose.

But that's just my opinion.

You may very well be right, but that doesn't change the facts about ME2. 

They needlessly discarded beloved characters in favor of doing even more character introductions as the entire focus of the second chapter of a trilogy, then made hollow promises to ME1 fans and failed to deliver. 

Even if they came out now and said exactly what you just said they are gonna need more than a "don't you trust us yet?" to get me to buy ME3.

[danien.grey]

The Angry One wrote...

If it involves Shepard as the last of the Spectres uniting the factions to fight the Reaper horde with a set of ancient Spectre treaties, I'm going to BioWare and punching someone in the throat.

Oh come on, imagine Alistair with a shotgun in N7 armour.  You know you want them to do it!

(I know this is from waaaay back in the thread, but I had to respond to it)

[redguppie]

Deltaboy37-1 wrote...

But you have to think about how much sense it makes for the last game in a trilogy. The theme has changed.

ME1 - exploration and introductions mixed of course with recruiting

ME2 - Character driven game, recruiting and fleshing out some things.

ME3 - Finishing story arcs. The only reason IMO that you would introduce more characters here is if and only if you plan to use them in future installments. Why introduce new characters that you will have to also finish their entire story within one game. I'm sorry but if ME2 was the end of the series, then all of ME2s characters minus Tali and Garrus would have been pointless and simply pawns. If what I'm thinking is even remotely close to actual reality, then we will see at best two new characters that are minor characters (Zaeedish) that will not have a significant story or purpose.

But that's just my opinion.

Agree completely.

Also if you look at this as a three part story instead of three seperate stories then the LI from the first couldn't take part in the suicide mission, they need to be garanteed to be in the third installment.  The LI subplots are a huge bait for fans and garantee a large audience by simply including them.  There have been several scenes and interviews that have basically confirmed that the LI's from the first are going to be in the third one, be happy with that certainty.

Another thing to think about is that just because the middle section of a trilogy reduced the roles of several characters to secondary roles does not in any way, shape, or form mean that the same patern will repeat itself in the finale.  All the 2nd installment accomplishes is being a bridge and nothing more.  It fills out the story, adds depth to the characters and build interest in the finish.

Have faith in Bioware to finish the story that they have created.  I personally feel they have put to much time and energy in both this series and their reputation to not at least try to deliver on all they have promised.  At the very least they won't let a sub-plot as popular and drama filled as the LI appears to be go to waste.

[contown]

danien.grey wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

If it involves Shepard as the last of the Spectres uniting the factions to fight the Reaper horde with a set of ancient Spectre treaties, I'm going to BioWare and punching someone in the throat.

Oh come on, imagine Alistair with a shotgun in N7 armour.  You know you want them to do it!

(I know this is from waaaay back in the thread, but I had to respond to it)

That's what I'm assuming the general plot will be of ME3. Getting the rest of the galaxy off their asses to stop the reapers. You'd build a fleet/army from the krogan, geth, etc etc, then use that army to kill the reapers in the big finale. Which is pretty similar to DAO, yeah.

And the way I'm guessing choices will carry over is, let's say you played paragon. You've got humanity the respect of the galaxy, and you've made yourself a friend to half of the races in the universe. Your army would be composed of a big happy mixture of krogan, geth, salarians, etc. If you played renegade, humanity stands pretty much alone. Shepard doesn't have a whole lot of allies. But he does have the collector base, and humanity controls the council, giving them plenty of power.

Both renegade and paragon would have a way to build a force to stop the reapers. The stories would end the same way, (the destruction of the reapers) but the themes of the stories would be completely different. That, I think, would be a great way to make the choices matter.

[Kabraxal]

contown wrote...

danien.grey wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

If it involves Shepard as the last of the Spectres uniting the factions to fight the Reaper horde with a set of ancient Spectre treaties, I'm going to BioWare and punching someone in the throat.

Oh come on, imagine Alistair with a shotgun in N7 armour.  You know you want them to do it!

(I know this is from waaaay back in the thread, but I had to respond to it)

That's what I'm assuming the general plot will be of ME3. Getting the rest of the galaxy off their asses to stop the reapers. You'd build a fleet/army from the krogan, geth, etc etc, then use that army to kill the reapers in the big finale. Which is pretty similar to DAO, yeah.

And the way I'm guessing choices will carry over is, let's say you played paragon. You've got humanity the respect of the galaxy, and you've made yourself a friend to half of the races in the universe. Your army would be composed of a big happy mixture of krogan, geth, salarians, etc. If you played renegade, humanity stands pretty much alone. Shepard doesn't have a whole lot of allies. But he does have the collector base, and humanity controls the council, giving them plenty of power.

Both renegade and paragon would have a way to build a force to stop the reapers. The stories would end the same way, (the destruction of the reapers) but the themes of the stories would be completely different. That, I think, would be a great way to make the choices matter.

Don't forget complete and utter failure.  One of the endings has to be the Reapers destroying the galaxy.  It would be wierd if every ending was a victory.

[CROAT_56]

after reading this thread i am nervous for me3 i hope its the same cast as ME2 with liara and ash/kaiden joining again and maybe one or twon new guys for those who killed all there squaddies in me2 tough cookies for them it should reward those who worked to get there squad to survive and newbies can read the codex about what happened and leave the squad the same

[Cutlass Jack]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Enchantment!

Heh heh, at least he seems to enjoy it...

But really, I already know what the Bioware PR will tell us:

"Part of experiencing a great story is meeting new and exciting characters. We've already introduced a few, like Spazz the fierce krogan warrior, Vanna the quarian mechanic, and Chuck the biotic assassin girl. For the most part, the response has been really great, and we are really happy that the fans are so excited! There have been a few concerned voices, but I think most people will enjoy these character at least as much, or even more than the ones from ME2. We haven't forgotten your old favorites, rest assured, heck we love them too! Besides, Jacob has already been confirmed as a returning member of the squad. Once you see what roles the ME2 squaddies play in the story, I'm sure you'll agree it makes perfect sense why most of them won't be joining Commander Shepard on his nigh impossible mission against the Harvesters."

 

I'd find this hysterical if it weren't for the fact I'm really worried they might actually do it. I had much more confidence before I saw the plans for Ascension.

[Sharn01]

Not even going to waste my time with Ascension. I actually hope if fail's horribly and the fans make it known that the reason they do not buy it is because of the lack of continuity, maybe it will be the kick in the ass they need to do better on ME3 and the next Dragon Age project.

[Agent.0.Fortune]

I liked the inter-team fighting I wish it lead to some people leaving the team or better yet, missions. Jack gets pissed at Miranda and hijacks a space station. Keep Miranda and hunt down Jack, or rescue Jack and dump miranda.



I don't mind the recuirting missions, but I really don't need bunch of jack-holes I don't care about sucking up all my oxygen, we are in space you know.



One of my favorite parts of this game was the fact that you could lose teamates in the suicide mission (although I wish I had some control over which ones... like if we dont' reinforce the armor, we could suffer a hull breach in engineering... or if we don't have sufficent guns we may not be able to prevent enemy bording attempts, etc. I know some of that is in here but the logic is a little fuzzy at times).

[phatpat63]

Making recruiting characters the backbone of a story is just stupid. I love the first half of Oceans Eleven too, but "assemble a team" is not a viable substitute for an actual plot.

I don't really care if they add 10 new squadmates or make us work with what we have left. But for the love of all that is holy just let them join up for free as per ME1. Don't make me spend 2/3 of the game just filling out squad positions for some ever increasingly obtuse plot dangled in front of my face, unreachable, like so many carrots on a string and then call it rain.

[crimzontearz]

please dear god please no more loyalty missions



seriously



"Hey shepard.....I know you are my lover, you helped me complete my pilgrimage, saved my lovely Quarian hips from being exiled AND took my sweet Quarian cherry.............but........I am still not 100% loyal"

[AntWrig]

CROAT_56 wrote...

after reading this thread i am nervous for me3 i hope its the same cast as ME2 with liara and ash/kaiden joining again and maybe one or twon new guys for those who killed all there squaddies in me2 tough cookies for them it should reward those who worked to get there squad to survive and newbies can read the codex about what happened and leave the squad the same

What?

[AntWrig]

crimzontearz wrote...

please dear god please no more loyalty missions

seriously

"Hey shepard.....I know you are my lover, you helped me complete my pilgrimage, saved my lovely Quarian hips from being exiled AND took my sweet Quarian cherry.............but........I am still not 100% loyal"

Or,

Hey Shepard, I know you just pulled me from the floating prison. However, I am still not loyal to you, motherF*****. I need you to get to this planet, so I can blow up this ****** base!