147 réponses à ce sujet

[Lycidas]

Dannok1234 wrote...

You don't really spend any significant amount of time out of cover using a biotic ability. Let's say you could use area pull on anyone you wanted, you spend what 0.5-1 second exposed, or you could do it while the enemy is hiding making it completely safe, unless you do it at 50% health or lower you take no risk. Doing it a second time is even less risky since the enemies you hit with pull are now floating harmlessly through the air.

Did you read what I said about area Pull/Throw?
And again how it that less of a risk compared to Cloak/AR + sniper rifle?

Dannok1234 wrote...

Why would I need to mention that charge refreshes shields?

Well because of that it is way less of a risk as it sounds. Sure it can get you in trouble but used right it can safe you life just as quick.

Dannok1234 wrote...

I still fail to see how it would not make insanity as easy as casual if it worked on protected enemies.

Don't get me wrong I don't want to see all biotics to work just as goon on protected enemys. I don't mind to have the restrictions on Singulatiry that we have now and I think biotic barriers should still lock out all biotics. I would not want to be able to Warp explode protected targets that are effectet by Pull. Just let me Pull + Throw (does not even need to be a one shot in small rooms) armored or shielded targets and I'm happy.

[_Dannok1234]

I missed that part about not having Area work that way, my mistake, and I didn't actually say it was less risk compared to cloak/AR I was comparing it to charge.



Basically I think this matter is one of personal tastes, some want biotics to have more effectiveness then they currently do, while others don't. Just as some find the soldier more fun then a vanguard, adept, sentinel, engineer etc while for others it's vise versa.(Regardless of any sort of relative power/ease-of-use) I have a feeling that neither side will be able to convince the other/change their point of view all that much when it comes to this.

[sinosleep]

The whole defense to health ratio is a load of crap. Devs have come into more than one thread where this information is being put out there and repeatedly stated that it's MISINFORMATION. The only enemies that have more def than health are elite boss type enemies or enemies that have no health.

[Lycidas]

Dannok1234 wrote...

I missed that part about not having Area work that way, my mistake, and I didn't actually say it was less risk compared to cloak/AR I was comparing it to charge.

Basically I think this matter is one of personal tastes, some want biotics to have more effectiveness then they currently do, while others don't ... I have a feeling that neither side will be able to convince the other/change their point of view all that much when it comes to this.

And that's what makes me sad. Why not trying to find a middle ground that both sides can live with?

[Hongisto]

sinosleep wrote...

The whole defense to health ratio is a load of crap. Devs have come into more than one thread where this information is being put out there and repeatedly stated that it's MISINFORMATION. The only enemies that have more def than health are elite boss type enemies or enemies that have no health.

I'd like to echo this, just because it's true. You can easily see it yourself if you just pay a bit attention while playing.

[Koralis]

Sarah Aran wrote...
You've had BioWare reps state time after time that they fully intend every class to have to use guns and abilities on Hardcore/Insane. You have your opinion on what the adept should be able to do, but it isn't shared by BioWare.

Mind you that said, Average Gatsby these videos are pretty insane, and I hope you and others keep proving just how versatile every class is on Insanity

I just wish that Throw worked to a lesser degree when shielded/armored so that you could use it to toss a charging husk or two.  Offensively Adepts are fine.  Defensively they're in a bad way.

[padaE]

Very nice. A bit without style (yeah, it was me on youtube) but impressive nonetheless.

.

I started my second playthrough with an Adept and I'm have a lot of room to improve to get to play as aI want. I had problens with my First Mass Effect 2 Law when I discovered that Warp ammo does double bonus damage in ememys affected by biotic powers, and as most of enemys fitted this condition I had to pick it as special skill. However, after more study I realized that I was right, AP ammo is indeed the best choice as armored enemys, even if they are sucked by singularity they are not affect by it, so the bonus damage doesn't enter in this case.

[Roxlimn]

dissonance-zaon:



You're working with wrong information. Most of the HP of the most common targets in ME2 are in Health, not Defense, and even where that's not true, the Health of the target is still usually substantial.



Moreover, three of the five powers you can use as an Adept are useful against targets that have defenses, namely Throw, Warp, and Singularity. It's possible that Shockwave is, too, but I haven't tried to use it in any meaningful way, so I don't really know.



I've never had much problems stripping defenses en masse as a Adept on Hardcore - it was really rather easy; and once the defenses are gone, the Adept goes back to being the mega-instant-win class it was in ME1. The Adept still plays like a mega-instant-win class on Veteran and below. If you like being that powerful, you can play on that setting. I like a little bit more of a challenge, so I'm glad that Hardcore and Insanity offer that.

[incinerator950]

In my Insanity runs, Heavy Throw from a Nemesis/Blood Dragon Armor Adept only creates a stumble, with little shield or Armor piercing ability. Throw's for target practice off the ledge and lining up funny little shots of pinball. However, Singularity on occasion stuns for a little longer, even stun locking some opponents. Warp is invaluable, and I use AP Ammo over Reave, so I can't comment on what I don't actually use.

[davidshooter]

padaE wrote...

Very nice. A bit without style (yeah, it was me on youtube) but impressive nonetheless.
.
I started my second playthrough with an Adept and I'm have a lot of room to improve to get to play as aI want. I had problens with my First Mass Effect 2 Law when I discovered that Warp ammo does double bonus damage in ememys affected by biotic powers, and as most of enemys fitted this condition I had to pick it as special skill. However, after more study I realized that I was right, AP ammo is indeed the best choice as armored enemys, even if they are sucked by singularity they are not affect by it, so the bonus damage doesn't enter in this case.

Hmm, are you saying that if an enemy is held in place (but not floating) that the enemy is not considered to be in a biotic field and warp ammo is not doing the double damage?  I had been an advoacte of warp ammo for Adepts for a while but then I switched to Tungsten and I liked it better but I couldn't figure out why it felt like I was doing more damage than with Warp ammo given warm ammo's stats.  This would explain it if I'm understanding you correctly. 

[Roxlimn]

Heavy Throw does substantially more damage against Barriers. Try that out.

[padaE]

davidshooter wrote...

padaE wrote...

Very nice. A bit without style (yeah, it was me on youtube) but impressive nonetheless.
.
I started my second playthrough with an Adept and I'm have a lot of room to improve to get to play as aI want. I had problens with my First Mass Effect 2 Law when I discovered that Warp ammo does double bonus damage in ememys affected by biotic powers, and as most of enemys fitted this condition I had to pick it as special skill. However, after more study I realized that I was right, AP ammo is indeed the best choice as armored enemys, even if they are sucked by singularity they are not affect by it, so the bonus damage doesn't enter in this case.

Hmm, are you saying that if an enemy is held in place (but not floating) that the enemy is not considered to be in a biotic field and warp ammo is not doing the double damage?  I had been an advoacte of warp ammo for Adepts for a while but then I switched to Tungsten and I liked it better but I couldn't figure out why it felt like I was doing more damage than with Warp ammo given warm ammo's stats.  This would explain it if I'm understanding you correctly. 

.
Yes, that's what I tryed to say. You can do a easy test: Just use a singularity in an amored target and then use Warp. If the enemy had been in the singularity's effect, it should disappear with Warp, it doesn't. 

[Average Gatsby]

I think I need to make a video solely dedicated to throw or something. Its crazy useful and there are plenty of situations where it is superior to a warp. Actually I do have one already: my Grunt Loyalty mission video. I'm also going to be posting Reaper IFF today, so ridiculous amounts of throws there.

[incinerator950]

Let me get my seabag and unpack my 360, I'm going to start using throw and Singularity to test shield and armor damage with each.  My heavy throw has yet to be tested on any effective enemy barriers, but Wide Singularity is slowly draining shields (enough to warp bomb to strip).

I haven't slept in over 30 hrs, sorry if I'm a little jumpy when I see damage rates I don't see on a difficulty I hate.

Modifié par incinerator950, 20 février 2010 - 08:21 .

[congokurtz]

The vids look amazing. Great job.



I am so jealous of people who are playing this on the PC that I am DL'n both ME 1&2 in order to do a play-through on insanity. Between these vids and the ones in the vanguard insanity thread I'm not sure if I will do an adept or vanguard but both look fun as h*#%.



Thanks for the vids!

[dissonance-zaon]

Misinformation? Check. Regardless of the ratio, defense plays a big enough role to question the use of certain biotics and the global cooldown is a major issue at play (as I mentioned earlier). Singularity on an unprotected enemy is far more effective than a single use of Pull/Throw/Shockwave (for the simple fact that it affects more than 1 person for longer and it affects protected enemies). The majority of what goes on in Average Gatsby's videos are case in point. Again, the metagame side of it practically makes those 3/5 abilities ineffective (in comparison to Singularity/Warp) and situational at best. Let's not forget that some of the most difficult enemies don't even have health at all. **I should add that I'm specifically removing teammates out of the equation. That should not be an argument for any single class; That's an argument for team effectiveness.

Alas... I feel like I'm starting to run in circles in this argument so I'll drop it.

You guys enjoy the Adept and that's great. I'm not trying to convince anyone otherwise. I just chimed in because those who claim our arguments against biotics "invalid" are just ignoring the issue we're having. I guess it's just easier to chalk it up to "whiners and complainers". Heck, I could've saved myself a lot of time arguing my point by doing the same... Lesson learned? Nah.

Modifié par dissonance-zaon, 20 février 2010 - 08:20 .

[Roxlimn]

dissonance-zaon:



That's incorrect. If all you want is to render a single unprotected target incapacitated or fodder for Warp Explosion, then Pull is superior because it has a lower cool down and it curves better. In fact, there is no small number of Adept players who prefer Pull to Singularity for that purpose, me being one of them.



Singularity's ability to briefly stop more than one enemy is of no use if you're only targeting one opponent, or if you're meaning to instantly explode the effect, anyway. Moreover, the trickier targeting and slower egress on top of the lower cool down make it a questionable choice.



In fact, Average Gatsby himself will tell you that in his videos where he spams Warp and Singularity, he's slower and less efficient than he could be because he's using Singularity where he should be using Pull, and Warp where he should be using Throw.



We are not operating from theoretical stuff here. I've played the Adept and I've successfully used 4 of the 5 powers that I preferred to good effect. Players counter by saying that their inability to use powers comes from personal experience as well, but that makes no sense. Between two players of a game where both are speaking from personal experience, we believe the one who's actually getting stuff done, right?



The arguments that critique biotic use are invalid because they're untrue. As long as critiques of biotics include facts, I've got no beef, but where it strays into fiction, I'm going to correct inaccuracies.

[incinerator950]

It comes down to people who say the abilities are ineffective, because they want an effect from the abilities to readily do something to defenses, when we have one to two major skills that do that, and 2-3 Unlockable skills that do that also.



It's a tactical class, you have to stick your knife inside of it and slide it around until you find what you could, and should try, and actually do.

[dissonance-zaon]

Roxlimn

Don't assume that I haven't played with biotics on Insanity. I have used my Adept on Hardcore and didn't enjoy it at all. Also, the case you made about Pull/Throw is exactly what I call 'situational'. If you want to continually accept that any arguement against the use of biotics are invalid then that's your own bias getting in the way.

And this argument has run full circle for me for the last time. So let me make it clear since my main point seems to keep missing no matter how much I say it: It's a personal preference thing. Disappointment in the changes of my favorite class. The rest of the argument is still as valid as any other and it's unfortunate that people refuse to accept it.

[incinerator950]

We read you loud and clear dissonance-zaon.

[Roxlimn]

dissonance-zoan:



I'm not assuming anything. I'm saying that what you're saying is factually and observably untrue. It's NOT a personal preference thing. It's not a personal preference of mine that enemies have more Health that Defense. That's actually hardcoded in the game, and can be confirmed with tests that I can direct you to replicate using powers or guns or whatever else we can use as a measuring stick.



It isn't true that Pull and Throw are "situationally" useful, unless you want to call Disruptor Ammo and Overload and Inciendary Ammo also being "situationally useful," in which case it's true for all classes, and frankly, an improvement over how the last time Insanity was implemented.



It isn't true that using biotics on undefended enemies is LESS efficient than using guns. It's more efficient, if only because you can also use your guns while using your biotics. You can make arguments on personal preference, if you like, but you're not.



This is a statement of personal preference: I don't like it that two out of five biotic powers have limited to no effect on enemies that have defenses.



This is a hypothesis based on incorrect data: It's useless to use biotics on Insanity or Hardcore.



You may or may not have enjoyed your experience on Hardcore. That's for you to decide. However, if you didn't enjoy it because you didn't even bother to try using Throw to best advantage, then my recommendation to you is for you to reload those saves and try to see where you CAN use it to devastating effect. You might be surprised.

[apk117]

My favorite part was in P2 where Jack said "trying to... hold on," and you replied with a rifle butt to the teeth.

[themaxzero]

dissonance-zaon wrote...

Roxlimn

Don't assume that I haven't played with biotics on Insanity. I have used my Adept on Hardcore and didn't enjoy it at all. Also, the case you made about Pull/Throw is exactly what I call 'situational'. If you want to continually accept that any arguement against the use of biotics are invalid then that's your own bias getting in the way.

And this argument has run full circle for me for the last time. So let me make it clear since my main point seems to keep missing no matter how much I say it: It's a personal preference thing. Disappointment in the changes of my favorite class. The rest of the argument is still as valid as any other and it's unfortunate that people refuse to accept it.

If it's a personal preference thing why do we have to accept it?

[dissonance-zaon]

incinerator950 wrote...

It comes down to people who say the abilities are ineffective, because they want an effect from the
abilities to readily do something to defenses

That's a fairly accurate summation. Crunching numbers isn't my thing and I admit it's a major fault to my argument. I see it as a bigger picture, I suppose. Think of it this way, the whole of the game on Insanity revolves around the ability to strip defenses. So the majority of the time I can't even use the biotics I want to use.

I'd like to see a count on how many times an uninvolved person in this debate hit Singularity/Warp (combined) over Pull/Throw/Shockwave (combined) during the entire coarse of the game on Insanity.

We read you loud and clear dissonance-zaon.

Haha... I'd like to believe that (and the above posts show otherwise) but I'll take your word for it.


Roxlimn

I guess your data just proves different to my experience. /shrug I've got nothing more to say to you.

Modifié par dissonance-zaon, 20 février 2010 - 09:18 .

[themaxzero]

dissonance-zaon wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

It comes down to people who say the abilities are ineffective, because they want an effect from the
abilities to readily do something to defenses

That's a fairly accurate summation. Crunching numbers isn't my thing and I admit it's a major fault to my argument. I see it as a bigger picture, I suppose. Think of it this way, the whole of the game on Insanity revolves around the ability to strip defenses. So the majority of the time I can't even use the biotics I want to use.

I'd like to see a count on how many times an uninvolved person in this debate hit Singularity/Warp (combined) over Pull/Throw/Shockwave (combined) during the entire coarse of the game on Insanity.

We read you loud and clear dissonance-zaon.

Haha... I'd like to believe that (and the above posts show otherwise) but I'll take your word for it.


Roxlimn

I guess your data just proves different to my experience. /shrug I've got nothing more to say to you.

Just because we hear you does not mean we agree with you. If you have a problem with Biotics go make your own thread instead of bothering others. Better yet post nothing at all if all you have is whines and complaints. If its a real issue just mod your .ini and move on.

"I'm not happing with Biotics in ME 2 so i'm going to whine till everyone else is unhappy too!"

Modifié par themaxzero, 20 février 2010 - 09:28 .