334 réponses à ce sujet

[Awesome Helmet]

im the person that would argue and debate with anyone who ever though biotics sucked. id talk till i was ren in the face. i remember talking for months with some posters in the old forum like devos and jaegerbane and about biotics being so awesome. wed yell at eachother, screaming "my nemesis vangaurd with light armor is soooo awesome compared to your shock trooper vangaurd." its was awesome. adepts VS vangaurds VS soldiers with lift vs snipeing sentinels. theres probably still topics going on about ME1 adepts and vangaurds.

now we have a topic specifacally designed to create discusion on builds, but all we have are "keep big butt mcgee in ME3." did the game change so much that all those people, like myself, who enjoyed playing a biotic character, are all long gone. probably wating for bioshock2 or alpha protocol. lets imagine bioshock added shields to splicers that stopped plasmids. do you think that would make bioshock funner? ****. no.

the likes of the ME trilogy is going downhill with biotics, and im dont want to play ME3 with the "same" biotics im using in ME2. something has to be done, and done now. im not here to give answerws, this forum is filled with great, and more importantly, better ideas of how biotics/abilities should work. bioware really needs to take this problem into consideration.

i dont know why im making this topic, im just tired of biotics not being what they were. so take it as you will.

[gr00grams]

It's not just biotics.

It's a total rock, scissors, paper system.
It applies to all classes.

i.e. Soldier.
Concussive shot does not work on protected enemies outside barrier, but it's a very low damage skill so still not hot.
Disruptor ammo does not work well aside synthetics and shields.
Inferno is only effective on armor.
Cryo does not work on protected enemies.

So basically, every moment of the game, only ONE of it's skills is functional vs. the enemy type your fighting.

Yet, this is regarded as one of the most powerful classes.
I realize that mostly stems from adrenaline rush, but the fact remains.

All classes are equally limited. It's a rock, scissors paper system.

Modifié par gr00grams, 20 février 2010 - 12:56 .

[Staylost]

Feelings. 10/10

Presentation. 0/10

For the record I hate the new biotic system.
The adept, my most oft played class from ME1, no longer interests me.

Modifié par Staylost, 20 février 2010 - 01:12 .

[Roxlimn]

I actually like biotics this way rather than the previous way - that was too simple, too boring.

[Atheist Peace]

Roxlimn wrote...

I actually like biotics this way rather than the previous way - that was too simple, too boring.

This. Biotics in ME where to overpowered for me to find using them enjoyable. ME2 has the balance just right in my opinion, so much so that adept is now my favourite class.

[Malysoun]

It is not rock/paper/scissors.



Some enemies have multiple defenses which would mean they're a paper wrapped rock, or a rock with scissors tied to it.



If it were rock/paper/scissors then I would only need to use one power on a person and not 3-4.



In other games a rogue would be scissors, but a warrior would be rock that can smash scissors, and a mage would be paper which can cover/freeze the warrior, but the rogue can cut up the paper mage. It's no-where near the same thing when every enemy can be all three at the same time.

[_Dannok1234]

I've found the soldier to be the most boring class to play. Spam AR and thats pretty much it. If you want to attempt to get the killing speed of a Vanguard or even a sentinel, you have to extensively micromanage your squad and even then I'm not sure you'll be faster. or as fast.

As an Adept I spam Warp, Singularity, Throw, Pull and Shockwave compare that to AR with Soldier. As a Sentinel I spammed overload, warp, Throw, Tech Armor, Cryo. (note I also used my weapons, I used the right weapon at the right time)

If all powers or even only biotics as you don't seem to care about other skills, worked against all enemies regardless of their defense, like in ME1 there would be no point to difficulty levels at all.

Which is why I sincerely do not understand why those that do not like the new system simply play on casual or use a god mode cheat. Because quite frankly thats how easy the game becomes at that point. It doesn't matter how much health your enemies have or how much damage they do. If you can control every single one of them for the duration of any fight, they will never be able to put you in danger, what is the fun of that?

As for class threads, have you not noticed the ones in this forum? Some of them are the best I've seen on the internet. Where people actually change their minds rather then mindlessly bashing each other. People learn, adapt, share tips and tricks and builds. I know it's not quite the same as trying to find a couple of more points of dps, or discussing which class is more overpowered and ridicules.

Modifié par Dannok1234, 20 février 2010 - 01:29 .

[_Dannok1234]

Malysoun wrote...

It is not rock/paper/scissors.

Some enemies have multiple defenses which would mean they're a paper wrapped rock, or a rock with scissors tied to it.

If it were rock/paper/scissors then I would only need to use one power on a person and not 3-4.

In other games a rogue would be scissors, but a warrior would be rock that can smash scissors, and a mage would be paper which can cover/freeze the warrior, but the rogue can cut up the paper mage. It's no-where near the same thing when every enemy can be all three at the same time.

Defenses and powers work on a rock/paper/scissor system. You have skills specifically for armor, shields and barrier. Doesn't have to be an entire class dedicated to bringing down a special type of enemy for it to be classified as such. It's enough that you have defenses and skills to counter those defenses. (and visa versa)

Shields are the scissors to biotics paper, and overload is a rock to the shields scissor, etc etc etc.

[Roxlimn]

Dannok1234:



That's the thing I don't get. The gameplay Awesome Helmet wants is ALREADY in the game. All he needs to do is turn down the difficulty to Veteran and he gets what he wants. Why not do that?

[SmilingMirror]

Atheist Peace wrote...

Roxlimn wrote...

I actually like biotics this way rather than the previous way - that was too simple, too boring.

This. Biotics in ME where to overpowered for me to find using them enjoyable. ME2 has the balance just right in my opinion, so much so that adept is now my favourite class.

I agree. I am primarily a hard-core Sentinel that plays on Insanity by the way.

I do not think biotics need any changing on insanity, you kids just need the right upgrades or teammates.

Modifié par SmilingMirror, 20 février 2010 - 01:20 .

[_Dannok1234]

Roxlimn wrote...

Dannok1234:

That's the thing I don't get. The gameplay Awesome Helmet wants is ALREADY in the game. All he needs to do is turn down the difficulty to Veteran and he gets what he wants. Why not do that?

Beats me, thats why I keep asking that question.

[_-Greywolf-_]

gr00grams wrote...

It's not just biotics.

It's a total rock, scissors, paper system.
It applies to all classes.

i.e. Soldier.
Concussive shot does not work on protected enemies outside barrier, but it's a very low damage skill so still not hot.
Disruptor ammo does not work well aside synthetics and shields.
Inferno is only effective on armor.
Cryo does not work on protected enemies.

So basically, every moment of the game, only ONE of it's skills is functional vs. the enemy type your fighting.

Yet, this is regarded as one of the most powerful classes.
I realize that mostly stems from adrenaline rush, but the fact remains.

All classes are equally limited. It's a rock, scissors paper system.

Actually Soldier is the most powerful class, not because of its skills but because of its wider range of weapons. Having much more choice in different weapons and ammo for different situations is much more powerful than any of the Biotic or Tech skills

[SmilingMirror]

_-Greywolf-_ wrote...

gr00grams wrote...

It's not just biotics.

It's a total rock, scissors, paper system.
It applies to all classes.

i.e. Soldier.
Concussive shot does not work on protected enemies outside barrier, but it's a very low damage skill so still not hot.
Disruptor ammo does not work well aside synthetics and shields.
Inferno is only effective on armor.
Cryo does not work on protected enemies.

So basically, every moment of the game, only ONE of it's skills is functional vs. the enemy type your fighting.

Yet, this is regarded as one of the most powerful classes.
I realize that mostly stems from adrenaline rush, but the fact remains.

All classes are equally limited. It's a rock, scissors paper system.

Actually Soldier is the most powerful class, not because of its skills but because of its wider range of weapons. Having much more choice in different weapons and ammo for different situations is much more powerful than any of the Biotic or Tech skills

Soldier is not the most powerful class lol...not even close.
If i were to rank everything, i would have Sentinel on top, followed by vanguard. then infiltrator and engineer. then soldier and adept.

Modifié par SmilingMirror, 20 février 2010 - 01:32 .

[TekFanX]

NOPE: Have to disagree with second-poster: The soldier isn't as limited as the other classes.
Adapting to an enemy takes arround 1.5secs to change the ammo.

Biotics that really damage enemies need arround 6 seconds without buffs.
I have to talk for my sentinel, but Warp needs a heck lot more time to reload than applying ap-ammo on my gun.

Then weapons take a lot less time to reload than for the powers and I haven't encountered a situation in the game yet, where I ran out of sinks, so limited ammo is no excuse in my oppinion.

The only benefit the powers have: Curving arround obstacles. BUT:
Even if you can curve it arround obstacles, that's mostly not even helpfull since the power flies slow and has an almost constant homing on the locked enemy.
A slight move of the enemies hitbox sometimes makes the power hit a random place close to the enemy, since the flight-curve is altered. It would have hit perfect, if the curve hadn't been changed for the slight move or the power had moved faster.

Second thing I have to say: The powers are immensely more powerfull when combined with pull.
That's the damage they should make.
But then pull is only effective on enemies who aren't protected.
Same with the Cryo-Ability on my Sentinel.

I totally agree with the OP: For the given cooldown and the slow flight of the biotic powers their damage/force is a joke.
Weapons take a way too big role in ME2.
Tech-Powers at least are mostly specific to the different protections(overload/shields, incinerate/armor, cryo/unprotected enemies), although a pure engineer lacks somewhat firepower against barriers.
Biotics are mostly physical effects, knocking the enemy down or lifting it up.
That was the funny thing about it in ME1.
Why should a shield/barrier/armor make them immune against mass-fields?
That would mean, they'd fly into the space, since planetary gravity shouldn't effect them either.
Maybe a shield/barrier/armor protects against damage, but not against gravity-effects that lift you up or are thrown against you.

Modifié par TekFanX, 20 février 2010 - 01:34 .

[_Dannok1234]

Greywolf, how is that more powerful? I really don't get it. With your squad you can get the exact same ammo skills. With the extra weapon training you can get the weapon of your choice, giving you almost the variety of a soldier.



Also note here that defenses go down a lot faster then health for the majority of the time, and last time I looked soldiers do not have an innate ability that gives them more damage against health.

Overload will strip a shield faster then a soldier can, warp will strip armor faster then a soldier can, with the exception of some of the sniper rifles I suppose, but those has limited ammo.

[gr00grams]

SmilingMirror wrote...

_-Greywolf-_ wrote...

gr00grams wrote...

It's not just biotics.

It's a total rock, scissors, paper system.
It applies to all classes.

i.e. Soldier.
Concussive shot does not work on protected enemies outside barrier, but it's a very low damage skill so still not hot.
Disruptor ammo does not work well aside synthetics and shields.
Inferno is only effective on armor.
Cryo does not work on protected enemies.

So basically, every moment of the game, only ONE of it's skills is functional vs. the enemy type your fighting.

Yet, this is regarded as one of the most powerful classes.
I realize that mostly stems from adrenaline rush, but the fact remains.

All classes are equally limited. It's a rock, scissors paper system.

Actually Soldier is the most powerful class, not because of its skills but because of its wider range of weapons. Having much more choice in different weapons and ammo for different situations is much more powerful than any of the Biotic or Tech skills

Soldier is not the most powerful class lol...not even close.
If i were to rank everything, i would have Sentinel on top, followed by vanguard. then infiltrator and engineer. then soldier and adept.

Well first off, I never really needed more than my assault rifle on insanity. Once I got the revenant, it was even more pronounced. So the whole weapons for the situation is nice, and they are there if you want to use them, it was never actually needed.

Just the right ammo skill for the job, and AR.

While I don't think any class is 'the most powerful' over the others, I can say soldier is definitely up there.
I realy hate the whole class VS class thing, because it's a single player game and it's pretty much irrelevant.

I would say soldier is probably the most balanced class, as it has no weakness really. AR with all the ammo skills allows it to deal with any situation in short order. Especially with that revenant. That thing is so powerful.

EDIT*

@ Dannok,

It really comes with the combination of the ammo powers and AR skill. AR lets you just fill enemies. You also with commando get bonus damage to those ammo powers.

Like I love adept the most probably, then perhaps vanguard, but I will not be prejudiced or baised and say that soldier is a machine. I never had to resort to any tricks or real tactics with soldier.

Just use the right ammo skill and pop AR on. Was able to kill anything, no problems or tact. needed. Just pump em full of boolats.

Modifié par gr00grams, 20 février 2010 - 01:39 .

[_-Greywolf-_]

Dannok1234 wrote...

I've found the soldier to be the most boring class to play. Spam AR and thats pretty much it. If you want to attempt to get the killing speed of a Vanguard or even a sentinel, you have to extensively micromanage your squad and even then I'm not sure you'll be faster. or as fast.

As an Adept I spam Warp, Singularity, Throw, Pull and Shockwave compare that to AR with Soldier. As a Sentinel I spammed overload, warp, Throw, Tech Armor, Cryo. (note I also used my weapons, I used the right weapon at the right time)

If all powers or even only biotics as you don't seem to care about other skills, worked against all enemies regardless of their defense, like in ME1 there would be no point to difficulty levels at all.

Which is why I sincerely do not understand why those that do not like the new system simply play on casual or use a god mode cheat. Because quite frankly thats how easy the game becomes at that point. It doesn't matter how much health your enemies have or how much damage they do. If you can control every single one of them for the duration of any fight, they will never be able to put you in danger, what is the fun of that?

As for class threads, have you not noticed the ones in this forum? Some of them are the best I've seen on the internet. Where people actually change their minds rather then mindlessly bashing each other. People learn, adapt, share tips and tricks and builds. I know it's not quite the same as trying to find a couple of more points of dps, or discussing which class is more overpowered and ridicules.

This one wonders if the naive forumite has actually played ME2 because it feels it should point out that one cannot simply "spam" abilities due to the universal cooldown.

[_Dannok1234]

TekFanX, Sentinel going for short cooldowns has 3 second cooldown on warp and Overload. Thats 1.5 seconds longer then the ammo, and it will take out the defense nearly instantly.



I would really like to see someone posting a vid of a soldier clearing a section as fast as Sinosleep does in his Vanguard vids.

[_Dannok1234]

Greywolf are you sure you do not want to edit that reply. I mean I'm not sure I could make you look more foolish if I tried.

[gr00grams]

Soldier is actually built to 'spam' AR.

Aside concussive, which isn't that good (mine doesn't even have any points in it) Adrenaline is the only 'active' soldier skill.

You simply put the ammo skills on once, and then the only skill that you can use actually is AR. So yes, he would be correct that you spam it. Every 3 seconds.

-50% damage taken, at most something can get your shields down by the time it ends, you just fall back into cover, wait 3 more seconds, and repeat.

I'm not saying it's the most fun etc, but it is definitely effective.

Modifié par gr00grams, 20 février 2010 - 01:43 .

[gr00grams]

I would really like to see someone posting a vid of a soldier clearing a section as fast as Sinosleep does in his Vanguard vids.

If you want, I can do this, if you really want.

I'm not here to argue you guys, but I can agree that soldier is just a machine.



Again, it's not a 'pretty' class, but it's very effective.

Give me a video to reference please, don't feel like searching.



Cheers,

[Malysoun]

Dannok1234 wrote...

Malysoun wrote...

It is not rock/paper/scissors.

Some enemies have multiple defenses which would mean they're a paper wrapped rock, or a rock with scissors tied to it.

If it were rock/paper/scissors then I would only need to use one power on a person and not 3-4.

In other games a rogue would be scissors, but a warrior would be rock that can smash scissors, and a mage would be paper which can cover/freeze the warrior, but the rogue can cut up the paper mage. It's no-where near the same thing when every enemy can be all three at the same time.

Defenses and powers work on a rock/paper/scissor system. You have skills specifically for armor, shields and barrier. Doesn't have to be an entire class dedicated to bringing down a special type of enemy for it to be classified as such. It's enough that you have defenses and skills to counter those defenses. (and visa versa)

Shields are the scissors to biotics paper, and overload is a rock to the shields scissor, etc etc etc.

You totally missed what I said when I mentioned paper wrapped rock.

Let's assume that health is paper. Everyone is paper. Now some paper tapes rocks to themselves, they've got armor, and then they tape scissors over that and they've got shields.

While the powers may work as point-counterpoint, it's a bit ridiculous that a large number of abilities ARE scissors meant to work on paper (health), and there are very few powers that work against the scissors (shields/barrier) or
rocks (armor). It is not an even distribution, and rock/paper/scissors is meant for an even distribution for balance.

To make matters worse, warp is like throwing rocks at barrier, but also throwing rocks at more rocks (armor).
Barrier is a kinetic barrier created using biotics, and shields are a kinetic barrier created by machines, same thing different source.

[SmilingMirror]

gr00grams wrote...about a bunch of pointless nonsense about just using ARs

Average Gatsby has his adept do the final mission with nothing but biotics on his adept.  an AR is nice, but I also have an SMG which you dont. Never underestimate the SMG. Never.

Modifié par SmilingMirror, 20 février 2010 - 01:48 .

[BeyondFX]

If you've bothered to browse around you'd probably find that theres plenty of vids showcasing how powerful biotics really are and what you can do to be more effective with them. I remember there being a number of posts stating that the vanguard was useless on insanity, yet its proven a well played one has ridiculous killing speed and survivability without spending much time in cover.

[gr00grams]

I don't, and I'm not arguing you.

I am just stating 'it is what it is' and soldier is a machine.
I don't know how to make that any more clear.

Like you pop on adrenaline, with the revenant, and whatever target you choose is toast.
Once you start getting upgrades etc, pretty much everything is toast.
I hear AR adds something like 100% damage to weapons when on too, but I can't confirm it.

I'll make a vid if you want, or just make a soldier yourself.
It's not an exciting flashy character, but lastly, again, it is extremely effective.

If you've bothered to browse around you'd probably find that theres plenty of vids showcasing how powerful biotics really are and what you can do to be more effective with them

There's one right in my sig

Modifié par gr00grams, 20 février 2010 - 01:47 .