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**** biotics.


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#226
Roxlimn

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First of all, I played ME1, and I played Adepts in ME1. It got boring because it was too powerful. And in fact, that IS what you want:



i want mind numbingly powerful though. dont you? thats why i played ME1 over 30 times. because my shepard kicked major ass. was there any enemy that shepard couldnt kill on their own? shepard used to be a killing machine. now hes just as powerfull as any other random soldier.




You can be mindnumbingly powerful in ME2. Turn the difficulty down all the way to Casual. There you go - mind numbingly powerful. The game already has the setting you want. I don't see why WE have to sacrifice what we want, when you already have what you want.



my problem isnt with weapons. im not looking to kill things faster, or have a biotic power that kills everything on screen. im not looking for easy. i want to play this game as an adept. i want to use my biotics. i dont want to be a

gimped soldier, who can use biotics once they shoot their weapons

enough. you just dont understand what the adept should be. im not looking to kill things faster with my guns. this is something those "play on an easier setting person" doesnt understand. i want to play aa an ADEPT! its as simple as that.




I think you're equating "ADEPT" with "all powerful class." That is not how I understand it, and that is why I was sort of disappointed with its first incarnation. At least with Soldier, if you ignored Immunity, you could sort of have a challenge on Insanity (but it was still kind of easy). With Adept, nearly all your powers were insta-wins even on Insanity, and the only power that wasn't - Warp - involved you shooting guns anyway. At that point, you have none of the flavor of Adept.



You want to play an easier game. You said it yourself, why deny it? You want an all-powerful Shepard, and that means an easier game. Play on Veteran, since that has the settings that will suit you. What's not to get about that?



An Adept plays NOTHING like a Soldier, and I can say that now with experience on multiple settings, Normal, Veteran, Hardcore, AND Insanity. How many people around here can say that? An Adept is not a gimped Soldier. If you play it like that, then that's your business, but you don't have to.



It's a foregone conclusion that on Insanity, they're going to force you to use more of your class resources than on lower settings. The Adept DOES have access to Pistols, Submachine Guns, and Snipers or Assault Rifles. So it follows that the hardest settings should oblige you to use guns, since you class has significant access to them.



In the first game, you ALSO had access to guns, but you were so overpowered that you didn't have to use them. WTF? If I set the setting on Insanity, I WANT a challenge, not the cakewalk of ME1. That is actually true on ME2, and it's not a given that you need to use guns all the time, even then. It's more efficient, but not strictly necessary.



You want an easier game? Lower your difficulty setting. ME2 has the biotics you want - you just have some aversion to playing on Veteran for some reason.

#227
rumination888

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Adepts suck and aren't unique. End of story.

www.youtube.com/watch

Any class can do the exact same thing as all those Adept videos that people have made so far.
All those Adepts that wasted their cooldown casting Singularity could've casted Warp and cleared areas even faster.

#228
Schneidend

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rumination888 wrote...

Adepts suck and aren't unique. End of story.

www.youtube.com/watch

Any class can do the exact same thing as all those Adept videos that people have made so far.
All those Adepts that wasted their cooldown casting Singularity could've casted Warp and cleared areas even faster.


Except that...casting Singularity and THEN Warp causes a bigass explosion that eradicates **** faster than Warp alone?

#229
Roxlimn

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rumination888:

Yeah. Notice how the AMMO COUNT in the entire video does not change? The fact that Shepard has Adrenaline Rush, the Revenant Gun, and Inciendary Ammo (or whatever other ammo type) was completely superfluous. That guy doesn't even HAVE Warp - he's a Soldier.

The most you need for that final mission is Reave power, good squadmates and... ...that's all you need.

Modifié par Roxlimn, 23 février 2010 - 04:46 .


#230
rumination888

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Schneidend wrote...

Except that...casting Singularity and THEN Warp causes a bigass explosion that eradicates **** faster than Warp alone?


I cleared it faster by spamming Reave as a gunless Soldier than the Adepts did by casting Singularity.
And I made a ton of mistakes in the vid as well.

#231
baller7345

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rumination888 wrote...

Adepts suck and aren't unique. End of story.

www.youtube.com/watch

Any class can do the exact same thing as all those Adept videos that people have made so far.
All those Adepts that wasted their cooldown casting Singularity could've casted Warp and cleared areas even faster.


From experience warp isn't the fast way to kill with an adept.  Warp's cooldown and the fact that it doesn't one shot an enemies health is whay pull/singulairty is the superior power to use.  Warp only shines against defenses and when you can detonate but only when there are multiple enemies in the area or if the place you are fighting in is too small to get the best out of throw.  Pull when at health is almost do it and forget about them as long as you order your squad to shoot the floating person while singularity keeps you alive thanks to being able to lock people down.

Also why is everybody obsesses with speed?  I don't mean to sound negative but I would like to know why speed equates to strength.  I'm sure a vanguard and perhaps a soldier (haven't seen a soldier speed run) but as an adept you could go through that area quickly and take less damage (theoretically don't bash me for saying that).  I'm just saying that speed doesn't necessarily translate to power.

Anyway you are entitled to your opinion and I was just stating what I've experienced so I'm perfectly ok with you disagreeing with me to each their own.

#232
Schneidend

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rumination888 wrote...

I cleared it faster by spamming Reave as a gunless Soldier than the Adepts did by casting Singularity.
And I made a ton of mistakes in the vid as well.


Right, so Reave is overpowered. That's pretty much all you've managed to prove, smart guy.

#233
rumination888

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Schneidend wrote...

Right, so Reave is overpowered. That's pretty much all you've managed to prove, smart guy.


Yes, because Reave is so much different than Warp.

#234
Roxlimn

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rumination888:

Actually, if you were paying attention, the team mates in the video are detonating Reave by using Warp. You can't detonate Warp with Warp. That's why you use Pull.

Additionally, you can't use Reave to detonate Warp unless you're targeting an undefended target, and Pull is superior for that because it has less cool down, fires around corners, and pulls the target clear off where the team mate Warp is sure to hit it.

The gameplay featured in the video can be done by ANY class that's attempting to replicate Adept play by using Reave as an inefficient stand in for Warp+Pull, except an Adept can do it faster because he doesn't have to Reave or Warp or Pull everything - sometimes he can Throw the ones that are vulnerable to such tactics.

Modifié par Roxlimn, 23 février 2010 - 05:09 .


#235
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Roxlimn wrote...

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First of all, I played ME1, and I played Adepts in ME1. It got boring because it was too powerful. And in fact, that IS what you want:

i want mind numbingly powerful though. dont you? thats why i played ME1 over 30 times. because my shepard kicked major ass. was there any enemy that shepard couldnt kill on their own? shepard used to be a killing machine. now hes just as powerfull as any other random soldier.


You can be mindnumbingly powerful in ME2. Turn the difficulty down all the way to Casual. There you go - mind numbingly powerful. The game already has the setting you want. I don't see why WE have to sacrifice what we want, when you already have what you want.

my problem isnt with weapons. im not looking to kill things faster, or have a biotic power that kills everything on screen. im not looking for easy. i want to play this game as an adept. i want to use my biotics. i dont want to be a
gimped soldier, who can use biotics once they shoot their weapons
enough. you just dont understand what the adept should be. im not looking to kill things faster with my guns. this is something those "play on an easier setting person" doesnt understand. i want to play aa an ADEPT! its as simple as that.


I think you're equating "ADEPT" with "all powerful class." That is not how I understand it, and that is why I was sort of disappointed with its first incarnation. At least with Soldier, if you ignored Immunity, you could sort of have a challenge on Insanity (but it was still kind of easy). With Adept, nearly all your powers were insta-wins even on Insanity, and the only power that wasn't - Warp - involved you shooting guns anyway. At that point, you have none of the flavor of Adept.

You want to play an easier game. You said it yourself, why deny it? You want an all-powerful Shepard, and that means an easier game. Play on Veteran, since that has the settings that will suit you. What's not to get about that?

An Adept plays NOTHING like a Soldier, and I can say that now with experience on multiple settings, Normal, Veteran, Hardcore, AND Insanity. How many people around here can say that? An Adept is not a gimped Soldier. If you play it like that, then that's your business, but you don't have to.

It's a foregone conclusion that on Insanity, they're going to force you to use more of your class resources than on lower settings. The Adept DOES have access to Pistols, Submachine Guns, and Snipers or Assault Rifles. So it follows that the hardest settings should oblige you to use guns, since you class has significant access to them.

In the first game, you ALSO had access to guns, but you were so overpowered that you didn't have to use them. WTF? If I set the setting on Insanity, I WANT a challenge, not the cakewalk of ME1. That is actually true on ME2, and it's not a given that you need to use guns all the time, even then. It's more efficient, but not strictly necessary.

You want an easier game? Lower your difficulty setting. ME2 has the biotics you want - you just have some aversion to playing on Veteran for some reason.


first off, there is a difference between casual and insanity and it isnt just "shooting more." i dont know why you keep bringing up changing the difficulty. difficulty level has absolutely nothing to do with this conversation. i want my biotics to serve a purpose. i want biotics that function. an adept isnt truley an adept throughout the game. every class is a soldier first, which sucks monkey balls. i didnt want to play ME2 as a soldier. i never even tried a soldier in ME1, but here i am playing as a "soldier" in me2.

how is an adept not a gimped soldier? i have the shiruken. thats it. i use the shiruken throughout 75% of the game to take out enemies, untill i find the SMG. wohoo. im a gimped soldier, theres no doubt about it. i shoot with the shiruken untill my enemies defenses are all taken down, THEN i get to play as an adept! every other class plays the way they were "supposed" to be played. a soldier shoots, an infiltrator snipes and a vangaurd charges. i dont know how you can say an adept in ME2 plays like an ADEPT the entire game. its a disgrace to call the adepts in ME2, adepts.

if armor didnt stop biotics, id be able to utilize those abilities maybe 25% more often. which would make me alot happier playing an adept. if global cooldowns werent so stupid, i could play an adept and use all those great abilities i have, not just warp and singularity. global cooldowns means a non biotic with slam is equally as good at CC as a vangaurd or sentinel. its a shame. it really is.

if your happy shooting guns like you do in every videogame you have ever played so be it. but not me, i want to throw husks into walls and lift krogans into outerspace. if thats so wrong, then lock me up.

#236
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question:



does anyone here think its weird that a vangaurd can use biotics to "phase" their entire bodies through obstacles, but i cant use my biotics the same way? i always thought it was weird charging through crates, but then my throw ability cant pass through a knee high wall. i wish i could curve slam. i hate seeing it just mush up against a tiny little wall.



just kindof thought about that.

#237
Roxlimn

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first off, there is a difference between casual and insanity and it isnt just "shooting more." i dont know why you keep bringing up changing the difficulty. difficulty level has absolutely nothing to do with this conversation. i want my biotics to serve a purpose. i want biotics that function. an adept isnt truley an adept throughout the game. every class is a soldier first, which sucks monkey balls. i didnt want to play ME2 as a soldier. i never even tried a soldier in ME1, but here i am playing as a "soldier" in me2.




You can rule Veteran as an Adept without firing nary a single shot for most of the game. Tried it out the first few levels, and also variously sampled a few missions here and there on Veteran. Try it out. You don't need to use your gun. Your biotics work on nearly everything. It has everything you're asking for.



how is an adept not a gimped soldier? i have the shiruken. thats it. i use the shiruken throughout 75% of the game to take out enemies, untill i find the SMG. wohoo. im a gimped soldier, theres no doubt about it. i shoot with the shiruken untill my enemies defenses are all taken down, THEN i get to play as an adept! every other class plays the way they were "supposed" to be played. a soldier shoots, an infiltrator snipes and a vangaurd charges. i dont know how you can say an adept in ME2 plays like an ADEPT the entire game. its a disgrace to call the adepts in ME2, adepts.




Well, I don't see the problem. You're playing the Adept as a gimped Soldier, so you find it unsatisfactory. I certainly didn't play it that way. Sometimes, I use my guns to take out Shields, but it doesn't happen very often, and certainly not near 75% of the time. Doing so was your choice. I don't see why you're unhappy with it, since you're the one CHOOSING to do it that way.



Also, you have the Shuriken and the Predator. I found both useful. Might want to try that out. Warp is also useful for taking out Armor and Barriers quickly so you can use your other powers. Might want to try that out, too.



Generally, I ask one of my squadmates to tear off the defenses off of one guy, then other squaddie Pulls, then I Warp for the Explosion. That tends to clear several baddies of defenses, as well as kills one, straight off. Then I use Pull or Throw for the usual effects. Sing for locking down. Might was to try out those uses.



if armor didnt stop biotics, id be able to utilize those abilities maybe 25% more often. which would make me alot happier playing an adept. if global cooldowns werent so stupid, i could play an adept and use all those great abilities i have, not just warp and singularity. global cooldowns means a non biotic with slam is equally as good at CC as a vangaurd or sentinel. its a shame. it really is.




Well, yeah. A Sentinel's not very good at CC, after all. Adepts do that MUCH better. You can already play Adept and use all the great abilities that you have. You're CHOOSING not to. That's your business, but don't come here and complain that you CAN'T use them because THEY CANNOT BE USED. That's just completely false.



if your happy shooting guns like you do in every videogame you have ever played so be it. but not me, i want to throw husks into walls and lift krogans into outerspace. if thats so wrong, then lock me up.




1. You can't throw husks into walls because any use of Throw on them either staggers them or kills them outright. If you actually used Throw, you would know that.



2. You can lift krogans into outer space. That's actually one of the most efficient ways to deal with them. Certainly better than Warping or gunning them to death.

#238
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you are driving me crazy. playing an easier difficulty isnt a solution. not even close.



again, i dont want the stupid easiness of playing on casual. nobody does. i want to be challenged in a way that is equal to the challenge a soldier sees in playing on harder difficulties. IM NOT LOOKING TO KILL THINGS FASTER. i hope you can read that.



how else do you shred shields/armor/barriers without weapons! is there any other choice?!?!? dont tell me i have squad mates for that. im not looking to find squadmates that help playing as an adept. im looking to help my adept, play as an adept.



enemies defenses are about 50% health and 50% protection, if not more towards protection. so im playing as a biotic 50% of the time. do you get that? im playing a gimped soldier that whole time when im not using my biotics.



have you ever really used anything but singularity and warp with an adept tho? what are the first two abilites an adept levels? your not gonna use shockwave or pull, when you have singularity, your just not, unless your intentionally trying to use all the adepts abilities.



your not going to convince anyone that the adept is awesome if i just played it on an easier setting.



ridiculous.

#239
Schneidend

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rumination888 wrote...

Yes, because Reave is so much different than Warp.


Detonating Singularities, Pulls, and Reaves with Warp is far more effective than using Reave alone. That's why most Adepts travel with another Warp squaddie. And, yes, Reave is so much different than Warp, because there isn't an "Area Warp." You can't throw down Warp and hit four people unless they're standing right on top of each other.

#240
Grumpy Old Wizard

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rumination888 wrote...

Schneidend wrote...

Except that...casting Singularity and THEN Warp causes a bigass explosion that eradicates **** faster than Warp alone?


I cleared it faster by spamming Reave as a gunless Soldier than the Adepts did by casting Singularity.
And I made a ton of mistakes in the vid as well.


It is sad when soldiers are better biotics than adepts are. :(

#241
Average Gatsby

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rumination888 wrote...

Adepts suck and aren't unique. End of story.

www.youtube.com/watch

Any class can do the exact same thing as all those Adept videos that people have made so far.
All those Adepts that wasted their cooldown casting Singularity could've casted Warp and cleared areas even faster.


What this really is illustrating is how ridiculously good Reave is more than how Adepts are bad. I would go so far as to say that Reave, while not a mistake per say, really puts the bonus in bonus power, because Reave, with one move, can do something that takes adepts multiple moves. Reave does heavy damage, CC, and can set up a detonation all with a single Shot.

But how does this mean that adepts suck or aren't unique? Your using a bonus power biotic power on a class that has significantly better survivability than an adept.  In my mind, it more shows that Reave is just insanely overpowered.

BTW this video has actually already been made. Xylend made a video a couple weeks ago where he did this exact same section, using only Reave, and cleared it just as fast. He used a sentinel instead of a soldier.

I think if your saying that Reave takes the uniqueness out of the Adept because it allows any class to do all three of the adepts specialties in one move, I would agree with you. And does reave sort of make the adept kind of a dinosaur in comparison? Its hard to argue against it. 

But does that mean the Adept is broken or that Reave is broken. In my mind, that clearly points to the broken nature of Reave. One ability shouldn't take all the uniqueness out of a class.

I think the real title of your video should be "Reave, so broken even a soldier can do it", because with one move you basically can do everything the adept can.

And thats why I say that BioWare should Nerf reave, not boost the Adept. Only sentinels and Vanguards should have to tools to assist in making biotic combos, because thats a power, and in the case of adepts THE power, of biotic users in ME2.

As others have pointed out, warp cannot set up detonations like Reave can. Reave is better than warp period. Game breaking better. Just spamming warp would have way less of a result than reave + warp because reave lets you detonate warps. Warps can't detonate warps. If adepts started with Reave, we'd probably rarely need pull because our damage dealing ability would also cause the enemy to be affected by biotics. Since Adepts don't, they need pull or singularity to cause that detonation. So your second statement on the superiority of just warps is incorrect.

Modifié par Average Gatsby, 23 février 2010 - 07:33 .


#242
Schneidend

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Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

It is sad when soldiers are better biotics than adepts are. :(


Anybody with Reave could do this, including, *gasp*, the Adept. Casting Reave and then detonating it with Warp is an extremely potent combo. The thing is, Adepts can do this far more efficiently with Field Pull + Warp and Singularity + Warp.

#243
Average Gatsby

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Let me be clear about something, when I defend Adepts, I'm defending them in the context of classes being "pure" as in not using bonus powers, because bonus powers are just bonuses. Something extra for your accomplishment. They are not even close to being attempted to be balanced. I mean, look at Neural Shock compared to Reave. Reave encompasses everything Neural Shock can do and so much more.



So when I see any class with max reave, they are instantly stronger than any class without reave. I would argue that the biotic combos combined with the effects of Reave are SO good, that ANY class with max reave is better than ANY class without Reave. I would go so far as to say that I bet you could beat that section using a soldier with just Reave easier and faster than if you were a soldier shooting. Thats how good Reave is. Any class which takes Reave, using the right squadmates, can have an incredibly easy time.



So when I'm comparing classes, I am never talking about using bonus powers, because the bonus power can blur the line incredibly between classes. Its not a soldier using reave anymore, it could be anyone using reave and they'd be able to replicate that result.



This points to 2 things: Reave is overpowered, and bonus powers were clearly not put in the game for any kind of balance effect but more for a "fun" factor. Let the classes get shaken up you know?



Thats why I always play my classes trying to use the bonus power little to no times, because with the bonus power its not really an Adept or a Vanguard or a Soldier. Its whatever class you pick with a big + bonus.

#244
Roxlimn

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Grumpy Old Wizard:



Nonsense! That vid did not show a single ability that was specific to a Soldier, and showed several instances where an Adept would have fared better. If nothing else, that vid showed EXACTLY how an Adept should play like (and that is mostly how I play an Adept - except I'm not so dependent on squaddie powers).



An Adept would perform similarly, except she has her bonus slot open for something else, and she can actually contribute to the Pulling-Warping extravaganza. Oh, and she has Throw.



Awesome Helmet:



I've played Soldier on Normal and on Hardcore, and a little bit on Insanity. There IS no added difficulty. I'm not a particularly good shot, and Soldier is not all that materially different on the different settings, because AR makes your shooting skill mostly moot - it's EASY mode shooter. And no, it doesn't play that way in ME1, since you didn't even have to take cover, or even shoot straight in ME1, since you had Immunity.



Awesome Helmet:



how else do you shred shields/armor/barriers without weapons! is there any other choice?!?!? dont tell me i have squad mates for that. im not looking to find squadmates that help playing as an adept. I'm looking to help my adept, play as an adept.



enemies defenses are about 50% health and 50% protection, if not more towards protection. so im playing as a biotic 50% of the time. do you get that? im playing a gimped soldier that whole time when im not using my biotics.




Squadmates are part of ME2 play. Actually, they were also part of ME1 play - it's just that the large majority of people who played ME1 didn't figure out how to manage squadmate AI, which wasn't even something all that complicated to do.



You shred Armors and Barriers with Warp. Usually ONE Warp will do it. Warp is an Adept power. Shields you can do with guns, squaddie powers, or Energy Drain (bonus power). That is one defense out of three that you can't handle with powers alone, which you have tools to deal with. Most enemies have at least 50% HP in Health, usually more. I can confirm this for you for multiple opponents at specific test areas if you wish. I do not speculate. I do not exaggerate like you do. I amass facts from experiences and replicable tests. I believe similar kinds of hard data.



I can tell you straight out that on Insanity, a Rank 4 Warp will remove every Barrier and Armor of every mook opponent. In fact, for Vorcha and similarly armored enemies (Husks) - it's overkill. It's highly inadvisable in those cases because your guns perform better (because the defenses are so light) and you can use the cooldown to throw something better than Warp - like Pull or Throw.



These conditions are only true on Hardcore and Insanity. On Veteran or lower, they are not true. You do not want a challenge. Do not lie. You want to be "a biotic god," and I can quote multiple instances of your saying this outright or paraphrasing it. If you must, recant one statement, or the other. They are exclusive to one another, and it'd be nice to find out which one you really mean.



I am not trying to antagonize you. You want to be overpowered. You also want a challenge. Those statements are mutually exclusive. Clarify your meaning.



have you ever really used anything but singularity and warp with an adept tho? what are the first two abilites an adept levels? your not gonna use shockwave or pull, when you have singularity, your just not, unless your intentionally trying to use all the adepts abilities.




Yes. In fact, I hardly EVER use Singularity. That's Gatsby's thing. I have criticized his videos on the grounds that he's too slow because he likes spamming that power. It's inefficient.



The first abilities an Adept levels is Warp and Singularity because (I believe) the game starts you off with points in those abilities already, and you need Rank 2 in them to open Pull and Throw. Once Pull and Throw are open, I put points in them ASAP. One point in both of those abilities is the best investment you can make as an Adept since you will be using those two powers extensively throughout your game. Generally, I acquire Pull before leveling up Singularity.



Once I have points in all 4 of the abilities I'm familiar with, I max out Warp. This is not because I like using Warp that often. It's because Warp sucks. It's only ever good for taking out defenses, and even then it's only any good when you level it to Unstable or Heavy Warp. Both Throw and Pull are usable until end game even at level 1. In fact, it's perfectly acceptable to level Pull at level 1 throughout the game and still make a ton of use out of it, though I tend to level it to level 2 for the duration bonus anyway.



Throw Field Iike to level to Evolution, either as Heavy Throw or Throw Field. Both uses are awesome. Throw Field makes mincemeat of Husks - makes Horizon easier (of course Singularity has a role there, too). Heavy Throw does decent damage on Barriers and Health and also ensures auto-kill on Pulled targets whenever you have an open left, open right, or open sky. Horizon has open sky. Most locations have some drop or another. It's very useful.



I'm not using these abilities JUST to use these abilities. I'm using them because they're better than the alternatives.



I refer you to rumination888's video on this very thread. In it, he plays a Soldier straight though the Suicide level without firing a shot. This is similar to the experiences I've been telling you about over and over and over again - an Adept CAN perform like this and better.



Notice that he's using his own Reave to remove protections. He does not usually finish off Drones with it. Notice how many Warp Explosions there are? That's Samara doing Pull and Miranda doing Warp on the Pull targets. Note the group of three Collectors he surprises in a corner? Instantly obliterated, right? That is how an Adept plays all game long.



Note how he sometimes encounters Drones that do not have full Barriers. When you Reave those, you are losing cool down. That is because Heavy Throw will strip those partial barriers just as well, with half the cool down. Notice how his squadmates are Exploding single Pulled targets. He's losing cool down there as well. That is because he could have Thrown them with Heavy Throw and killed the guys just as surely, and he would have saved 9 seconds of squaddie cooldown, replacing it with 2 seconds of his own cooldown.



In general, rumination888 is losing cool down left and right on that vid because he's only armed with Reave. He could have done that run faster and safer and surer if he had Pull and Throw. In fact, he could have also used Singularity for locking down Harbinger. That would have reduced his risk (and we see him committing some fairly hairy errors here and there). Those would not have been as risky with Singularity in the picture.



I've been telling you this but you haven't been listening. Please don't argue. LISTEN. I can teach you how to use Pull and Throw and other powers if you want to, but if you don't want to, nothing I say can be of any help. It really seems to me at this point that you do not want to listen to facts. You just want the ME1 Adept back.



It IS that way on Veteran. Tell me why this is unacceptable to you. The play you want is there.



Look here. I did not start play on Insanity. I get the feeling that you're not feeling the how's of the Adept because you started on Insanity. Start with Veteran. Don't argue. Start up your game and play on Veteran. Use your powers. Own face. Once you get the hang of how hard Adept powers own face, you can understand how it works. Then, when you move up to Hardcore, you will realize how using your guns to kill undefended mooks is WORSE than using your powers. I won't have to explain it because it will become plain.



Please. Give it a chance.












#245
Roxlimn

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Average Gatsby:



Sorry. You're quite wrong there. Reave is not stronger than Warp. Warp is stronger than Reave because neither Warp nor Reave are working in isolation. I tried Reave on an Adept. It is worthless because everything Reave gives me, I can already do and better. It's not worth the slot, much less the cool down.



If I'm going to spam a single power, then Reave is better than Warp because Reave interacts with my ally's Warp like Pull does. However, I am NOT spamming a single power because I don't have to. I can use Warp to strip defenses, then Pull (instead of Reave) to set up the Explosion, saving me 3 seconds on base cool down.



Moreover, when Samara Pulls, I can save Miranda's Warp cool down by using Warp myself, with a shortened 4 second cool down. I can't do that with Reave. You don't have to take my word for it. Play an Adept with Reave. You'll see just how redundant it really is.



Of course, you would have to use Pull more. I can understand your finger situation. I'm 5'8" myself. I use the two thumb buttons on the mouse for Throw and Pull (I generally don't pause to use those powers), and put Warp on 1 and Singularity on 2. This is because I use Throw and Pull the most, followed by Warp, then Singularity.



You can arrange the hotkeys according to your preference, of course. I assume you'll be putting Singularity on the thumb button.



Regardless, the video is showing the power of Warp Explosion. You can clearly see the strategy employed there: use Reave to strip defenses, then Pull, then Warp. You can see how effective and quick it is. That is why I've been advising the use of Pull over Singularity for Warp Explosions.



The vid would go faster with an Adept because Adepts can trigger and setup Warp Explosions by themselves, allowing them flexibility in assigning cooldowns. Also, they have Heavy Throw to supplement Warp for defense stripping, and for the occasional single-target kill.

#246
rumination888

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Average Gatsby wrote...

Let me be clear about something, when I defend Adepts, I'm defending them in the context of classes being "pure" as in not using bonus powers, because bonus powers are just bonuses. Something extra for your accomplishment. They are not even close to being attempted to be balanced. I mean, look at Neural Shock compared to Reave. Reave encompasses everything Neural Shock can do and so much more.

So when I see any class with max reave, they are instantly stronger than any class without reave. I would argue that the biotic combos combined with the effects of Reave are SO good, that ANY class with max reave is better than ANY class without Reave. I would go so far as to say that I bet you could beat that section using a soldier with just Reave easier and faster than if you were a soldier shooting. Thats how good Reave is. Any class which takes Reave, using the right squadmates, can have an incredibly easy time.

So when I'm comparing classes, I am never talking about using bonus powers, because the bonus power can blur the line incredibly between classes. Its not a soldier using reave anymore, it could be anyone using reave and they'd be able to replicate that result.

This points to 2 things: Reave is overpowered, and bonus powers were clearly not put in the game for any kind of balance effect but more for a "fun" factor. Let the classes get shaken up you know?

Thats why I always play my classes trying to use the bonus power little to no times, because with the bonus power its not really an Adept or a Vanguard or a Soldier. Its whatever class you pick with a big + bonus.


For the record, not once in the video did you see me detonate Warp on Reave.
I detonated it with Pull. Pull Field to be exact, On a 4 second cooldown. From Samara.

I'd have an easier time if I had Warp. I'm tempted to go through the game with a Sentinel again just to make a vid of how Warp spam can finish faster than a Soldier with Reave.

I said it weeks ago in multiple threads and I'll say it here again, Warp/Reave overshadows all other biotics. It has nothing to do with them being too powerful(well, thats not entirely true), but more to do with the fact that enemies, even boss-type ones like Harbinger, die within seconds. I used to think CC is only useful on normal mode because enemies have less protection, but after actually trying it on normal mode, I learned thats completely and utterly false. They're even worse on lower difficulties because enemies have less red health and die even quicker. That makes using a global cooldown on a damage ability even more effective than using it on CC.

Modifié par rumination888, 23 février 2010 - 08:08 .


#247
SmilingMirror

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Reave is not the only overpowered way to win in this game. All of you are fooling yourselves if you think so.

Biotic warp and reave are an undeniably strong late game tactic however.

Modifié par SmilingMirror, 23 février 2010 - 08:20 .


#248
Roxlimn

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rumination888:



Fair point. A Sentinel WOULD have gone faster because he gets bonus cool down on Warp, but your Soldier did not have bonus cool down on Reave. However, Adepts also get bonus cool down on Warp as well, and they are not tied to using ONLY warp, since they also have Pull, allowing you more flexibility in where you assign your cooldowns.



Furthermore, you can lock down Harbinger with Singularity right off, so that you don't have to spend so much time in cover avoiding fire or regenerating Health. In multiple instances, Warp Explosion only killed ONE target. Waste of cool down. Would've gone faster with Heavy Throw.

#249
Average Gatsby

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rumination888 wrote...

Average Gatsby wrote...

Let me be clear about something, when I defend Adepts, I'm defending them in the context of classes being "pure" as in not using bonus powers, because bonus powers are just bonuses. Something extra for your accomplishment. They are not even close to being attempted to be balanced. I mean, look at Neural Shock compared to Reave. Reave encompasses everything Neural Shock can do and so much more.

So when I see any class with max reave, they are instantly stronger than any class without reave. I would argue that the biotic combos combined with the effects of Reave are SO good, that ANY class with max reave is better than ANY class without Reave. I would go so far as to say that I bet you could beat that section using a soldier with just Reave easier and faster than if you were a soldier shooting. Thats how good Reave is. Any class which takes Reave, using the right squadmates, can have an incredibly easy time.

So when I'm comparing classes, I am never talking about using bonus powers, because the bonus power can blur the line incredibly between classes. Its not a soldier using reave anymore, it could be anyone using reave and they'd be able to replicate that result.

This points to 2 things: Reave is overpowered, and bonus powers were clearly not put in the game for any kind of balance effect but more for a "fun" factor. Let the classes get shaken up you know?

Thats why I always play my classes trying to use the bonus power little to no times, because with the bonus power its not really an Adept or a Vanguard or a Soldier. Its whatever class you pick with a big + bonus.


For the record, not once in the video did you see me detonate Warp on Reave.
I detonated it with Pull. Pull Field to be exact, On a 4 second cooldown. From Samara.

I'd have an easier time if I had Warp. I'm tempted to go through the game with a Sentinel again just to make a vid of how Warp spam can finish faster than a Soldier with Reave.

I said it weeks ago in multiple threads and I'll say it here again, Warp/Reave overshadows all other biotics. It has nothing to do with them being too powerful(well, thats not entirely true), but more to do with the fact that enemies, even boss-type ones like Harbinger, die within seconds. I used to think CC is only useful on normal mode because enemies have less protection, but after actually trying it on normal mode, I learned thats completely and utterly false. They're even worse on lower difficulties because enemies have less red health and die even quicker. That makes using a global cooldown on a damage ability even more effective than using it on CC.


I must have confused your video with Xylend's. Sorry about that. My arguements for Reave being so awesome stay the same.

Now when you say warp/reave overshadow all other biotics, are you talking about just using Shepard's warp constantly and never using a cc with shep personally or are you talking about warp in the hands of squadmates as well? Because in my mind a squadmate detonating unstable warp is stronger than a shepard only using his own warp.

Also when it comes to CC, I think maybe I just have a totally different idea of how CC is supposed to work in this game. When I'm talking about CC, i'm talking about 2 things: Either neutralizing a target temporarily so I can kill other targets without fear of taking damage, or setting up a target for an even bigger damage boost. So when you say CC is useless but then I see that your squad mates are using pulls, to me that is showing how valuable CC is because in my mind, that's a function of CC. 

Whats kind of Ironic though is that by making your video, your also showing how awesome biotics are which directly contradicts the OP :). Even though people have mainly talked about the Adept, the OP was basically saying that biotics were way too weak, which you are effectively proving 100% false.

#250
Average Gatsby

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I also want to note that you may be able to get through the game faster by not casting singularity, but that also makes you incredibly reliant on your own skill for staying in the right cover and timing your detonations perfectly to never get flanked or overwhelmed. And if your playing sentinel, then your giving yourself a big advantage in survivability with the tech armor, so you don't have to be as careful. All it would really prove is that your very good at using warps effectively, not that the one ability is so good that no one for any reason should use another.



I can hands down tell you that if I only used warp, I could not beat Reaper IFF. Not even close. I definitely could not beat the Second part of the Collector Station/End Run mission either, when you have no room to maneuver and your getting surrounded by abominations. Horizon would be rough with the harbinger/husk mix. And even trying to kill the mech dogs while getting shot at would be extremely challenging. So if you were able to do all that, you'd basically just be showing us that your really good, but very few people would be skilled enough to replicate it, while a lesser skilled player with access to more abilities may have an easier and possibly faster time.