334 réponses à ce sujet

[_-Greywolf-_]

Dannok1234 wrote...

Greywolf, how is that more powerful? I really don't get it. With your squad you can get the exact same ammo skills. With the extra weapon training you can get the weapon of your choice, giving you almost the variety of a soldier.

Also note here that defenses go down a lot faster then health for the majority of the time, and last time I looked soldiers do not have an innate ability that gives them more damage against health.
Overload will strip a shield faster then a soldier can, warp will strip armor faster then a soldier can, with the exception of some of the sniper rifles I suppose, but those has limited ammo.

Actually I find if I go up against one of those YMIR mechs a fully upgraded overload does **** all to the shields, same with a warp on the armour. I find it is much more effective to equip a sniper with Disruptor Ammo. I was actually surprised how little damage these abilities did to the shields and armour considering that their use is pretty much to get rid of shields and armour.

Boitics are only really good when the target has no defenses at all.

[_Dannok1234]

gr00grams, I'd actually like that. Not because I want you to prove anything, but it might actually give me some more enjoyment out of playing a soldier and teach me something. Because I for the life of me can't do it nearly as fast and I it really dull slugging along.

How about first part of the collector base, the vale thing. Think he has one of those, or I suppose I could edit the one I have which includes way too many deaths.

Edit: Crap I can't find the one I was thinking of now. But here's one you could do at the collector ship.

Modifié par Dannok1234, 20 février 2010 - 01:51 .

[TekFanX]

Dannok1234 wrote...

Greywolf, how is that more powerful? I really don't get it. With your squad you can get the exact same ammo skills. With the extra weapon training you can get the weapon of your choice, giving you almost the variety of a soldier.

Also note here that defenses go down a lot faster then health for the majority of the time, and last time I looked soldiers do not have an innate ability that gives them more damage against health.
Overload will strip a shield faster then a soldier can, warp will strip armor faster then a soldier can, with the exception of some of the sniper rifles I suppose, but those has limited ammo.

Overload will strip a shield faster than a soldier can?!
Which game are you playing again?
Use disruptor-ammo.
Against an YMIR, with Miranda and Garrus in the squad, Miranda with Heavy overload, Garrus' and mine is on 3, I need two to three overload-salves while shooting with the AR and not missing a bullet.
With my Soldier I pick Disruptor-Ammo and AR, one heat-sink pulls the shield of an YMIR almost half down.
Some shots with the Mantis do this even before powers can be locked on that damn YMIR.
I nearly don't want to even talk about the nice little LMG with disruptor-ammo:
I needed not even a full magazine for the Geth-Prime's shields while recruiting Tali.
Then a fast switch to Inferno-ammo and the geth was gone.
That all combined with the fact that sink-reloads take about a second on rapidfire-weapons, not 6 like the Overload would without buffs(with it it takes arround 3 to 4 secs I guess).

The biggest problem between powers and weapons/ammo-powers is the excessively larger cooldown on those "scissor/rock/paper"-powers.
A soldier can switch between ammo in arround a sec and continue firing. Also it can adapt to the range with different weapons. Sniper-Rifles kill enemies before they enter the marking-room of powers.
I wouldn't even say Overload/Warp would need more power, they should just be aviable again faster.
With the global cooldown powers lack the adaption-abilities of weapons.

[gr00grams]

On the suicide mission? I can do that, finished insanity last night with my soldier.



Note, again it's not a 'pretty' or 'flashy' class.

It's actually a very repetitive one.

That however has no bearing on how effective it is.



1 active power and three ammo skills.

All there is to it.

[_-Greywolf-_]

gr00grams wrote...

Well first off, I never really needed more than my assault rifle on insanity. Once I got the revenant, it was even more pronounced. So the whole weapons for the situation is nice, and they are there if you want to use them, it was never actually needed.

Wow I thought that the revenant was kind of crap which is why I chose the widow sniper rifle (which is a beast). In fact I found most of the ARs pretty crap except for the vindicator battle rifle

[SmilingMirror]

gr00grams wrote...

I don't, and I'm not arguing you.

I am just stating 'it is what it is' and soldier is a machine.
I don't know how to make that any more clear.

Like you pop on adrenaline, with the revenant, and whatever target you choose is toast.
Once you start getting upgrades etc, pretty much everything is toast.
I hear AR adds something like 100% damage to weapons when on too, but I can't confirm it.

I'll make a vid if you want, or just make a soldier yourself.
It's not an exciting flashy character, but lastly, again, it is extremely effective.

If you've bothered to browse around you'd probably find that theres plenty of vids showcasing how powerful biotics really are and what you can do to be more effective with them

There's one right in my sig

Biotic powers take off  at least an entire bar of shields, barrier or health. If their health bar is exposed i can just burn them with squad ammo til they die.

You also hide around cover too much because you have no shields. Having only a health bar to rely on puts you out of the fight for too long.

Modifié par SmilingMirror, 20 février 2010 - 01:56 .

[_Dannok1234]

Haha! It was your vid I was probably thinking of, I got you two mixed up. There are quite a few vanguard vid's these days. Was so nice to see all that negative talk about vanguards just go poof, as more and more vid's appeared.

[gr00grams]

The revenant does the most damage to armor, and I believe has the highest actual damage.

Yes, the spread is high, but it's almost irrelevant, especially with the AR upgrade.



I'll make this really simple;

This is soldier;



Throw on AR.

Pop out of cover with proper ammo skill on for enemy faced.

Hold left mouse down.

Enemy dies.

AR wears off.

Wait 3 sec.

Repeat.



Not flashy, or exciting, but irrelevant.

Very effective.



Like revenant vs a scion insanity = one AR with inferno ammo. = toast.

It's pretty simple.

[BanditGR]

BeyondFX wrote...

If you've bothered to browse around you'd probably find that theres plenty of vids showcasing how powerful biotics really are and what you can do to be more effective with them. I remember there being a number of posts stating that the vanguard was useless on insanity, yet its proven a well played one has ridiculous killing speed and survivability without spending much time in cover.

And you are assuming that every Vanguard plays like sinosleep . The truth of the matter is, most people playing Vanguards, have little to no idea of what they are doing with Charge. They die a couple of times (more than a couple on insanity) and deduce that the class is somehow "broken". On the other hand, it takes more tactical awareness to play a Vanguard than any other class but if you do manage it then yes, you can clear entire areas in no time, probably faster than any other class or at the very least just as fast as a Soldier/Infiltrator (there are very specific points in missions that do not favor charging).

As for Biotics, I've played enough on insanity, to safely state that there are definetely some things that work "out of the box" (eg warp detonation combos are amazing) and others that are pretty situational and may or may not be worth a cooldown, as opposed to bullets. I still think believe though that biotic specialists are significantly more "encouraged" to use specific abilities more often than they would probably like to, because quite simply, you have to strip those defenses one way or another. I hope that a compromise can be achieved for ME3.


Edit : And gr00grams  is correct when stating that after the Soldier get his hands on the Revenant and a couple of upgrades, it's basically game over.

Modifié par BanditGR, 20 février 2010 - 01:58 .

[_Dannok1234]

Greywolf and TekFanx, I was talking about regular enemies rather then boss type creatures that you meet every now and then. I figured that would be obvious, my mistake

[gr00grams]

Biotic powers take off at least an entire bar of shields, barrier or health. If their health bar is exposed i can just burn them with squad ammo til they die.



You also hide around cover too much because you have no shields. I can run around for at least three seconds on Insanity without my shields popping off with upgrades.

I don't know what you are tyring to tell me.

I agree soldier is a machine.

I also think adept is a machine.



The playstyles are just very different is all. Like adept is meant to stay in cover. Running around is for soldier. Adepts don't need to run around, so that as a comparison is irrelevant.



What was your point?

[SmilingMirror]

gr00grams wrote...

The revenant does the most damage to armor, and I believe has the highest actual damage.
Yes, the spread is high, but it's almost irrelevant, especially with the AR upgrade.

I'll make this really simple;
This is soldier;

Throw on AR.
Pop out of cover with proper ammo skill on for enemy faced.
Hold left mouse down.
Enemy dies.
AR wears off.
Wait 3 sec.
Repeat.

Not flashy, or exciting, but irrelevant.
Very effective.

Like revenant vs a scion insanity = one AR with inferno ammo. = toast.
It's pretty simple.

This would be vanguard:
charge melee shotgun dead
repeat three times = three dead scions.

Modifié par SmilingMirror, 20 février 2010 - 02:00 .

[Graunt]

SmilingMirror wrote...

_-Greywolf-_ wrote...

gr00grams wrote...

It's not just biotics.

It's a total rock, scissors, paper system.
It applies to all classes.

i.e. Soldier.
Concussive shot does not work on protected enemies outside barrier, but it's a very low damage skill so still not hot.
Disruptor ammo does not work well aside synthetics and shields.
Inferno is only effective on armor.
Cryo does not work on protected enemies.

So basically, every moment of the game, only ONE of it's skills is functional vs. the enemy type your fighting.

Yet, this is regarded as one of the most powerful classes.
I realize that mostly stems from adrenaline rush, but the fact remains.

All classes are equally limited. It's a rock, scissors paper system.

Actually Soldier is the most powerful class, not because of its skills but because of its wider range of weapons. Having much more choice in different weapons and ammo for different situations is much more powerful than any of the Biotic or Tech skills

Soldier is not the most powerful class lol...not even close.
If i were to rank everything, i would have Sentinel on top, followed by vanguard. then infiltrator and engineer. then soldier and adept.

This has to be a joke, I mean seriously.  The Soldier most definitely is one of the strongest classes, or at least they can blow through the game faster than anyone else up to the Collector ship and even get stronger after that.  They start out with the largest assortment of tools (weapons for any situation) and have ammo types to suit any given situation.  Are they extremely basic to play?  Yes, but that doesn't change the fact that they are one of the strongest classes, if not strongest overall.  

An Adept can "blow up groups" but much less than hype videos would make you believe and Sentinels are only powerful after a whole lot of levels, where the Soldier starts out strong and keeps getting stronger until the end.  Both Adepts and Sentinels are slow starters depending on how you want to play them and in the end can come near or arguably beat the Soldier in terms of killing speed, but not so much that they would catch up to how fast a Soldier blows through the game up until those other classes hit the same level.  You can simply "spam Warp" with either, but that's even more boring than just "holding down your trigger" with a Soldier and it's still slower overall.

An Infiltrator can start out really fast as well depending on how you want to build them and can skip many areas of the game (Sentinels can as well to a lesser degree) by running through or around the enemies to reach the door that triggers the end of that area, but they have a really hard time in a few areas compared to other classes where as the Soldier is mister joe average that isn't better than anyone else on any given map, but has literally no weaknesses on any either.

Modifié par Graunt, 20 février 2010 - 02:02 .

[gr00grams]

Yep. Sounds about right.



Just to make sure everyone here is clear on where I stand;



I'm not saying any class is better than the other. I think they are all fairly equal, just differ in style of play. That's pretty much it.

[_-Greywolf-_]

gr00grams wrote...

The revenant does the most damage to armor, and I believe has the highest actual damage.
Yes, the spread is high, but it's almost irrelevant, especially with the AR upgrade.

I'll make this really simple;
This is soldier;

Throw on AR.
Pop out of cover with proper ammo skill on for enemy faced.
Hold left mouse down.
Enemy dies.
AR wears off.
Wait 3 sec.
Repeat.

Not flashy, or exciting, but irrelevant.
Very effective.

Like revenant vs a scion insanity = one AR with inferno ammo. = toast.
It's pretty simple.

I am guessing you have to get pretty close for the Revanant to be effective? But if you are using only the AR and fighting at close range when playing a soldier your doing it wrong.

However I will take your word for it that a Revenant at close range against a scion is an effective way to take one down.

[gr00grams]

While it blows my mind to say, on the soldier points I will agree with Graunt.

I can't believe that lol.

No you don't have to get up close, can always use a sniper rifle if you want range.
The revenant is bascially soldiers method of AoE.

Like the Derelect Reaper? I could not believe how easy it was with a soldier, cryo ammo and revenant.
Just use AR when it's ready, and it was unbelievable easy.

Basically, soldier is a class without weakness is all.
It has an answer to every scenario, where the other classes might not.

That is how it is designed.
It's not the 'absolute' best in any of the areas, but it has all areas.
That is very important.

Modifié par gr00grams, 20 février 2010 - 02:05 .

[BanditGR]

Graunt wrote...

SmilingMirror wrote...

_-Greywolf-_ wrote...

gr00grams wrote...

It's not just biotics.

It's a total rock, scissors, paper system.
It applies to all classes.

i.e. Soldier.
Concussive shot does not work on protected enemies outside barrier, but it's a very low damage skill so still not hot.
Disruptor ammo does not work well aside synthetics and shields.
Inferno is only effective on armor.
Cryo does not work on protected enemies.

So basically, every moment of the game, only ONE of it's skills is functional vs. the enemy type your fighting.

Yet, this is regarded as one of the most powerful classes.
I realize that mostly stems from adrenaline rush, but the fact remains.

All classes are equally limited. It's a rock, scissors paper system.

Actually Soldier is the most powerful class, not because of its skills but because of its wider range of weapons. Having much more choice in different weapons and ammo for different situations is much more powerful than any of the Biotic or Tech skills

Soldier is not the most powerful class lol...not even close.
If i were to rank everything, i would have Sentinel on top, followed by vanguard. then infiltrator and engineer. then soldier and adept.

This has to be a joke, I mean seriously.  The Soldier most definitely is one of the strongest classes, or at least they can blow through the game faster than anyone else up to the Collector ship and even get stronger after that.  They start out with the largest assortment of tools (weapons for any situation) and have ammo types to suit any given situation.  Are they extremely basic to play?  Yes, but that doesn't change the fact that they are one of the strongest classes, if not strongest overall.  

An Adept can "blow up groups" but much less than hype videos would make you believe and Sentinels are only powerful after a whole lot of levels, where the Soldier starts out strong and keeps getting stronger until the end.  Both Adepts and Sentinels are slow starters depending on how you want to play them and in the end can come near or arguably beat the Soldier in terms of killing speed, but not so much that they would catch up to how fast a Soldier blows through the game up until those other classes hit the same level.  You can simply "spam Warp" with either, but that's even more boring than just "holding down your trigger" with a Soldier and it's still slower overall.

An Infiltrator can start out really fast as well depending on how you want to build them and can skip many areas of the game (Sentinels can as well to a lesser degree) by running through or around the enemies to reach the door that triggers the end of that area, but they have a really hard time in a few areas compared to other classes where as the Soldier is mister joe average that isn't better than anyone else on any given map, but has literally no weaknesses on any either.

A very, very nice summary that reflects my experience as well.

[gr00grams]

your doing it wrong.

This does not compute.

Who are you to tell me what I'm doing right or wrong? You have no idea.



I literally blew through insanity the easiest with soldier by far, using only the assault rifle because honestly, I didn't need anything else.



Explain how I'm wrong, or how the hell you can even discern what wrong is.

I don't mean this offensively either, I'm not attacking you.



It just makes absolutely no sense

How is playing the game in any fashion wrong?

[TekFanX]

Dannok1234 wrote...

Greywolf and TekFanx, I was talking about regular enemies rather then boss type creatures that you meet every now and then. I figured that would be obvious, my mistake

No problem;).
I agree with you on Eclipse Commandos and such: One overload level3 leaves them mostly unshielded, also unarmed for some secs.

But also I have to state: With pulsed fire of the Avenger-AR and disruptor-ammo while in adren-rush, I can unshield two of them, wether they stay close to each other or not.
Overload does this just on VERY(no yelling intended, just to clarify the importance) close standing enemies.

Poor thing I have to add: With Disruptor-Ammo and the Revenant you are almost more effective against Geth with a soldier than the engineer, the tech-expert.

A little hint for all those who can't hit good with Rapidfire-Weapons(no insult intended): Pulse your fire to the extreme, you will have an unseen precision.

[ItsFreakinJesus]

Throw and Shockwave should knock enemies down regardless of defense. Whether they should do damage is debatable, but at least, enemies should fall over.



Lift should be inhibited by armor. Shields and barriers shouldn't prevent someone from being picked up into the air.





As for the whole rock/papper/scissors damage aspect, leave it. But Throw Field and Shockwave, two powers that are meant for quickly clearing enemies out of the way in a jam, aren't as effective on Hardcore and Insanity, the two difficulties that players would benefit most from the crowd control powers.



Have the enemies fly back a small distance like they do with low level powers, or have enemies flop to the ground like we did against biotic powers in ME1, I don't care. That stagger that they do when hit with Heavy Shockwave doesn't cut it.

[Riot Inducer]

As some other posters have said here, it's really the weapons that throw off the whole rock/paper/scissors mechanic the powers have. No matter the weapon you'll always be able to do damage against an enemy regardless of what type of protection they have, weapons just have grey area.



I can shoot at an armored enemy with my SMG, it won't do the damage of a heavy pistol, but I can still fire the weapon and deplete his armor. I can't do that with my powers as an adept, if an enemy has armor or shields I can't use the majority of my abilities, I have to spam warp and whittle away their defenses with my weapon, that's not how an adept should have to be played, that's just a soldier with warp.



And the biggest problem is that when enemies are vulnerable to powers they're also the most vulnerable to weapons too, when faced with an unarmored enemy as an adept I feel I should hit it with pull or throw or shockwave but if I aim with my pistol correctly I can kill the enemy with a few headshots in about half the time it would take to kill the enemy with powers.

[SmilingMirror]

I use to think soldier was upper tier until I really learned how to use my powers. this is all from my experience at least.

I will not deny that at the start of the game soldier has an easier time than some of the classes, and less experienced players will find soldier the easiest to do well with but i was under the impression you meant the class that can kill or survive the best overall mid to end game.

Modifié par SmilingMirror, 20 février 2010 - 02:34 .

[_Dannok1234]

I should probably clear the air as well. I don't really care if one class is more powerful then the other as long as they are different enough to offer a change of playstyle and fun. My point was that Biotics as they are in the game at the moment are not horribly broken, and I for one really hope they do not become like they were in ME1 which was just way too much. I think they are fine as they are.



Now about soldier, I found the soldier to be effective sure, never had any problems against anything. But I felt the going was slow and boring. (played after two vanguard runs)



So thats why I would want to watch a few soldier video's to see if there was something I could do better then I currently am. Killing "big" things like scion's, harbingers etc go very neat and fast with the revenant, it's the chore of killing all the "trash mobs" that gets to me. Somehow it just feels way to slow. Pop HAR and fire away, repeat until everything is dead.Thats basically the sum total of what I was doing, and I'm sort of hoping that there is something I'm missing. Like maybe I could exploit the storm speed better then I am at the moment etc

[Graunt]

gr00grams wrote...

your doing it wrong.

This does not compute.
Who are you to tell me what I'm doing right or wrong? You have no idea.

I literally blew through insanity the easiest with soldier by far, using only the assault rifle because honestly, I didn't need anything else.

Explain how I'm wrong, or how the hell you can even discern what wrong is.
I don't mean this offensively either, I'm not attacking you.

It just makes absolutely no sense
How is playing the game in any fashion wrong?

There is a reason so many people go with Jacob rank 4 ammo and Miranda rank 4 passive early on in the game; because nothing is faster with that combination overall and what does it affect the most?  Bullets.  Who spends more time shooting than any other class in the game (yes, including an Infiltrator since they spend time cloaking too)?  A Soldier.  That setup also lets him completely focus on AR and having the Assault Rifle that early in the game, combined with rank 4 ammo is just way too strong.

Hell, I had the easiest time with a Soldier too and that was before I learned about so many of the tricks and combinations as well as squad members for specific maps.  When I play the class again it will be even easier than before.

Modifié par Graunt, 20 février 2010 - 02:29 .

[gr00grams]

This just in;



With soldier, the heavy disruptor ammo and the revenant I killed the 'occulous' thing on insanity in 2 clips and 2 pops of AR. No heavy weapons.



I'm working on making the vid for whoever requested it



Cheers,