334 réponses à ce sujet

[ItsFreakinJesus]

Riot Inducer wrote...

I can shoot at an armored enemy with my SMG, it won't do the damage of a heavy pistol, but I can still fire the weapon and deplete his armor. I can't do that with my powers as an adept, if an enemy has armor or shields I can't use the majority of my abilities, I have to spam warp and whittle away their defenses with my weapon, that's not how an adept should have to be played, that's just a soldier with warp.

 

I've taken out enemy shields with warp several times, and I've used Overload to deal with armor.  Like base weapons, using powers on defenses they aren't strong against doesn't do the same amount of damage, as it should be.

The problem lies in biotics powers being unable to crowd control properly unless the enemy is down to their health.  As I said above, powers should knock enemies over regardless of their defenses.  Damage should be minimal, but if I use throw on an armored Krogan, it should at least fall down.

[Graunt]

SmilingMirror wrote...

I use to think soldier was good until I really learned how to use my powers. I can use a bunch of powers more effectively than switching between ammo powers. this is all from my experience at least.

I will not deny that at the start of the game soldier has an easier time than some of the classes, but i was under the impression you meant best class mid-late game. (which is when classes start to really become different from one another)

Believe me (or not), I really really want the Sentinel to be a star, and while they can be a jack of all trades, focus on biotics or focus on trying to get up close with a light use of biotics, they just cannot compete with a Soldier for overall effectiveness as far as progression goes.  I'm not arguing that other classes can be powerful, but I said they end up taking a much longer time to reach the same level or exceed the level of the Soldier and by that point he's already going to be on the suicide run while they are just getting the IFF or finishing up grabbing the last of the non optional squadmates.

[TekFanX]

The fact that bothers me most: I'm completely happy that the biotic powers aren't as powerfull as they where in ME1. But it's way over the line as it is.



I don't know how someone says he/she can pull more damage with powers than the Soldier can with weapons.

Either way they barely hit anything or I got a copy of ME2 that has increased cooldowns for all powers.



Sure, powers can turn out to be effective too, but heck, a soldier harvests the battlefield like no power-class could.



The only possibility I saw was to equip my Sentinel with the AR and AP as bonus-power to bridge the cooldowns of the powers.



The soldier adapts to different protections faster than any other class.

You can even choose to switch the weapon and apply an ammo-power right after it with the power-wheel/shift without having the human reaction-time between both actions.

That turns out to be arround three seconds, as long as a power needs to recharge with MAXED class-skill(those that defines your class, not tech-armor or adren-rush).

That means: A soldier can adapt in the time a maxed "caster" needs to recharge, even at game-start.

At least if the soldier is changing weapons AND ammo-power.



Second: When the soldier has adapted(chose weapon and ammo-power) the only recharge the soldier needs is to reload.

What's that taking? Even a full second?

I've never encountered a situation where I ran out of ammo in a fight for heat-sink-based weapons, except I choose the wrong weapon(sniping through unprotected enemies with the mantis for fun).



I can not even imagine how bad someones aiming has to be to make less damage with the soldier or run out of ammo in a fight if he/she can choose the right weapon and ammo-power.

[SmilingMirror]

Graunt wrote...

SmilingMirror wrote...

I use to think soldier was good until I really learned how to use my powers. I can use a bunch of powers more effectively than switching between ammo powers. this is all from my experience at least.

I will not deny that at the start of the game soldier has an easier time than some of the classes, but i was under the impression you meant best class mid-late game. (which is when classes start to really become different from one another)

Believe me (or not), I really really want the Sentinel to be a star, and while they can be a jack of all trades, focus on biotics or focus on trying to get up close with a light use of biotics, they just cannot compete with a Soldier for overall effectiveness as far as progression goes.  I'm not arguing that other classes can be powerful, but I said they end up taking a much longer time to reach the same level or exceed the level of the Soldier and by that point he's already going to be on the suicide run while they are just getting the IFF or finishing up grabbing the last of the non optional squadmates.

Now the class war truly begins.

There is no way that an end game assault sentinel is weaker than an end game soldier assuming both players are highly skilled.

Modifié par SmilingMirror, 20 février 2010 - 02:41 .

[Graunt]

SmilingMirror wrote...

Graunt wrote...

SmilingMirror wrote...

I use to think soldier was good until I really learned how to use my powers. I can use a bunch of powers more effectively than switching between ammo powers. this is all from my experience at least.

I will not deny that at the start of the game soldier has an easier time than some of the classes, but i was under the impression you meant best class mid-late game. (which is when classes start to really become different from one another)

Believe me (or not), I really really want the Sentinel to be a star, and while they can be a jack of all trades, focus on biotics or focus on trying to get up close with a light use of biotics, they just cannot compete with a Soldier for overall effectiveness as far as progression goes.  I'm not arguing that other classes can be powerful, but I said they end up taking a much longer time to reach the same level or exceed the level of the Soldier and by that point he's already going to be on the suicide run while they are just getting the IFF or finishing up grabbing the last of the non optional squadmates.

Now the class war truly begins.

There is no way that an end game assault sentinel is weaker than an end game soldier assuming both players are highly skilled.

No, the class wars don't truly begin now because they've already been over with for a while.  You just still have people trying to prove how great their favorite class is and cannot accept being number two or three.  There's a big difference between what's fun and what has the easiest time though.  In general the game seems to have a relatively good spread as far as what the classes can do overall when you consider all the maps they are strong on against all they are weak against.  The Soldier however has no such stipulation.  

The Sentinel also doesn't get the weapon bonuses that a Soldier gets, so they have to make up for it by using Warp or Cryo, but if they are using cooldowns for that, they can't recast Tech Armor when it explodes.  You can also crouch cast Warp from a distance to snipe off particularly bad areas, but you can snipe with a Soldier about as, or more effectively depending on ammo types.  The only downside is you're limmited on ammo and biotic abilities are only limited by a cooldown.

Modifié par Graunt, 20 février 2010 - 02:49 .

[SmilingMirror]

Fine, give me the builds of you and your squadmates so I can see exactly how cheap your soldier is. My soldier evidently sucks.

Modifié par SmilingMirror, 20 février 2010 - 02:49 .

[_Dannok1234]

Gr00grams, I'll have to watch that vid in the morning, I'm getting too old to be up at this hour (almost 4am now). In hindsight I should have asked for a more mundane mission, one of the illum ones maybe. As it's the places that have wave after wave of enemies that I find so dull as a soldier, and would really like some tips on how to get through them faster. Been trying to use HAR as a sort of poor mans Charge to speed things up, but haven't had too much success with it so far.

[Graunt]

SmilingMirror wrote...

Fine, give me the builds of you and your squadmates so I can see exactly how cheap your soldier is. My soldier evidently sucks.

It's very basic (that's the beauty of it...).  

Hardened AR
Shock Trooper
Squad Ammo 1
Squad Ammo 2
Bonus - Squad Warp Ammo 3; or Reave as there's really nothing else worth picking up as a bonus for a Soldier.

Depending on the rest of your squad or how you want to play, you could also just make one of the squad ammos the self only booster while keeping squad on for the rest (i.e. squad Cryo and you use something else).

Early on you just use Jacob and Miranda (ammo/passive), later on dump Jacob's ass for Grunt and swap in Zaeed and even dump Miranda for Garrus on any heavy Geth or Blue Sons missions.  For the final mission I just used Thane and Grunt with squad Warp ammo.

Modifié par Graunt, 20 février 2010 - 03:02 .

[gr00grams]

I find so dull as a soldier

I'm not saying it's exciting lol.

And Mine is the same as Graunts, just all ammo's for me.



Heavy AR

Commando

Disruptor, Inferno, Cryo all 'heavy'

1 pt fortification

Revenant Machine Gun.

[Graunt]

gr00grams wrote...

I find so dull as a soldier

I'm not saying it's exciting lol.
And Mine is the same as Graunts, just all ammo's for me.

Heavy AR
Commando
Disruptor, Inferno, Cryo all 'heavy'
1 pt fortification
Revenant Machine Gun.

I think I picked up Shock Trooper because I thought it extended the duration of AR.  I'm still not sure if it does or not, because it does say powers and not just "biotics" and the in game tooltips don't seem to adjust for bonuses.

[gr00grams]

It does extend the duration, but think it's 15%.

AR lasts 5 seconds.

5*.15 is only another .7ths of a second or so.



Where as, commando is 15% power damage (this applies to ammo skills). That means every boolat gets a 15% increase in damage... that's quite large when you look at it that way.

[Graunt]

gr00grams wrote...

It does extend the duration, but think it's 15%.
AR lasts 5 seconds.
5*.15 is only another .7ths of a second or so.

Where as, commando is 15% power damage (this applies to ammo skills). That means every boolat gets a 15% increase in damage... that's quite large when you look at it that way.

That just seems really off for a Soldier passive if it's not even increasing the duration to even a second and Commando does become a no brainer, especially if it also increases the bonus damage to AR not just ammo.

Modifié par Graunt, 20 février 2010 - 03:14 .

[gr00grams]

Almost every skill in this game is a 'no brainer' though lol.
I didn't make the game, but going by the mechanics they have given (what limited ones there are), yes commando is a clear winner.

Like read the description on AR;

Lasts 5 seconds.
Shock Trooper gives 15% power duration.
5*.15 = .75
= 5.75 seconds total.

Don't forget though, that powerduration also increases ammo skill effects too I imagine, like overhating of weapons from disruptor, burning from inferno, freeze from cryo, etc.

However yeah, 15% more damage on every boolat with a power on it vs correct defense for that ammo type... pretty impressive.

EDIT* Would just like to make clear, that an ammo skill vs a defense that doesn't grant it any increase would still essentially do nothing.

i.e. Disruptor vs non shielded, non synthetic, commando would do nothing.

I have also heard there is a 'hidden' damage increase for being in AR. I would think commando boost this as well.

Modifié par gr00grams, 20 février 2010 - 03:20 .

[Arde5643]

gr00grams wrote...

I find so dull as a soldier

I'm not saying it's exciting lol.
And Mine is the same as Graunts, just all ammo's for me.

Heavy AR
Commando
Disruptor, Inferno, Cryo all 'heavy'
1 pt fortification
Revenant Machine Gun.

They buffed soldier too much where it made the game somewhat boring playing as a soldier.

The first time you use HAR with revenant it was awesome - it got kinda tedious the 1000th time you use it though since that's all the soldier has to do to defeat anything in the game.

[rumination888]

Arde5643 wrote...
They buffed soldier too much where it made the game somewhat boring playing as a soldier.

The first time you use HAR with revenant it was awesome - it got kinda tedious the 1000th time you use it though since that's all the soldier has to do to defeat anything in the game.

I thought they nerfed the Soldier.

In ME1, all you did was stand in the middle of enemies while spamming Immunity(same with the Infiltrator). Even easier than a Vanguard/Adept in ME1. Atleast in ME2 the Soldier has to hide behind cover against boss-type and lieutenant-type enemies.

[Athenau]

Pssht. I will NEVER get tired of hosing things down with the Revenant.

Soldier is the biggest dps machine the game, and they're a deeper class than people give it credit for. Sure, you use adrenaline rush most of the time, but you can use that one skill in a lot of different ways (rushing up, sprinting from cover to cover, making a quick escape). I find that more interesting than a bunch of hard counters (mash, warp vs barrier, overload vs shield, *yawn*).

An aggressive soldier is a lot of fun to play. If you spend all your time behind cover you're missing out.

Modifié par Athenau, 20 février 2010 - 03:52 .

[Awesome Helmet]

Dannok1234 wrote...

Roxlimn wrote...

Dannok1234:

That's the thing I don't get. The gameplay Awesome Helmet wants is ALREADY in the game. All he needs to do is turn down the difficulty to Veteran and he gets what he wants. Why not do that?

Beats me, thats why I keep asking that question.

casual is NOT the gameplay i want. you cant be that one dimensional with fixing a problem like this. i dont want to kill things faster with my weapons. i want to play as a bloddy adept!

"Adepts are biotic
specialists, capable of disabling and killing enemies with raw biotic
power. While they lack advanced combat training, they are the best at
defeating enemies without firing a shot."

tell me how often im capable of doing that.

its not just armor stopping biotics or tech skills. its the fact that im playing a class that can only use their abilities 25% of the time. im a crappy version of the soldier the other 75% of the time. the classes have great variation, dont get me wrong. playing an infiltrator is completely differnt then playing a vangaurd. but its only because of the fact that most classes spam one ability. global cooldowns is a problem as well. its probably the biggest problem for the casting classes. what the point of pull, throw, and shockwave when i just spam singularity and warp over and over?

i can **** about this all day. its easy. its obviouse. its stupid.

[TekFanX]

Awesome Helmet wrote...

...

"Adepts are biotic
specialists, capable of disabling and killing enemies with raw biotic
power. While they lack advanced combat training, they are the best at
defeating enemies without firing a shot."

tell me how often im capable of doing that.

its not just armor stopping biotics or tech skills. its the fact that im playing a class that can only use their abilities 25% of the time. im a crappy version of the soldier the other 75% of the time. the classes have great variation, dont get me wrong. playing an infiltrator is completely differnt then playing a vangaurd. but its only because of the fact that most classes spam one ability. global cooldowns is a problem as well. its probably the biggest problem for the casting classes. what the point of pull, throw, and shockwave when i just spam singularity and warp over and over?

i can **** about this all day. its easy. its obviouse. its stupid.

Amen

[Forest03]

I can relate with your point of view.

The long, irate rant:

Adepts are incredibly easy to use, but as tactically boring as the Soldier (and some would say less). You just spam the same 2 (or 3) skills every 6-10 seconds (depending on the skill and your cooldown upgrades). You even have 5(6?) out of 11 team members who have a biotic attack of some sort. Once you're halfway through the game and have enough points to evolve at least 2 of your own skills along with those of your squad members, you have enough power to take care of almost any situation. The only difficulty we face with an all-biotic squad in Insanity is the length of time it takes to kill something.

Tactical options aside, let's face it - Adepts were way too powerful in ME1, and they had to be nerfed. However, when you look at other other classes like the Sentinel and Vanguard, BioWare gave Adepts the short end of the stick - not in power, but in variability and adaptability.

Warp, Reave, *pea shooter*, Warp, Reave, Overload *cross fingers while on Insanity mode* Pull + Throw, Shockwave (hey that actually worked this time!) Warp, Reave, zzz... It's the same damn thing every single time, unless you actually brought Tali with you, then you could at least have some fun with the mechs.

In ME3, we need less power but shorter cooldowns, and crowd control skills that actually work more than 1 out of 5 times at higher difficulties. Has anyone here tried to use Slam on a Krogan, even after its armor is gone? What the hell is the point of having a skill that does nothing against a target it's supposed to affect?

At any rate, how would everyone else like it if Warp Ammo and Armor Piercing ammo suddenly did 1/10th of its intended damage against shields and barriers on Insanity, or if Cryo didn't freeze anything at all?


The short, objective review:

The core of the problem is not that any particular class in ME2 lacks power or needs a more varied skill tree. It's that 75% of skills are ineffective at the highest difficulty settings because of the way the game scales. For that matter, it doesn't even scale correctly. The game is scripted to diminish the effects of anything other than Warp, Reave, Warp Ammo, Armor Piercing Ammo, Overload, and AI Hack (and a few others) to the extent that all those other skills become utterly useless.

This issue affects not only Adepts, but every class. If anyone else thinks otherwise, it's likely because they've already limited themselves to using the same 2-skill tactics throughout all of their play sessions and implemented those same strategies on Insanity mode.

Modifié par Forest03, 20 février 2010 - 04:52 .

[Roxlimn]

Awesome Helmet:



You totally didn't answer the question. The kind of Adept gameplay you want exists on Veteran. Play on that setting. Problem solved.



gr00grams:



I feel that the Soldier is being given the short end of the stick in the game, to be honest. Not only is it easy to play, it's also mindnumbingly boring. I can't bring myself to finish my Soldier Hardcore playthrough even though I finished Hardcore with every other class save Engineer. That kind of gameplay already exists for the Soldier on lower difficulty settings.



It would have been more interesting to have varied Soldier gameplay by giving him weaknesses.

[IntrepidProdigy]

ME2 is all about squad synergy this time around. With the right squad, you can take down groups of enemies on insane as an adept quicker than a soldier/infiltrator and vice versa. When you take the right squad members on the proper missions you'll find that it is quite rewarding. I almost think that some of the people playing as biotics in this game don't know how to strategize.

[_-Greywolf-_]

gr00grams wrote...

your doing it wrong.

This does not compute.
Who are you to tell me what I'm doing right or wrong? You have no idea.

I literally blew through insanity the easiest with soldier by far, using only the assault rifle because honestly, I didn't need anything else.

Explain how I'm wrong, or how the hell you can even discern what wrong is.
I don't mean this offensively either, I'm not attacking you.

It just makes absolutely no sense
How is playing the game in any fashion wrong?

Ok I apologise, you are right, if your tactic works then who am I to say that you are wrong. I know I just have trouble with rapid fire AR's even when I pulse the fire, it works for medium to close range enemies but it still has a pretty big spread, I prefer to take out my enemies from a distance which is why I use the Vindicator.

When I say that you are doing it wrong it is just because I feel that part of the soldier's strength is his effectiveness at a wider range of distances and fighting exclusively at close range seems to be more suited to the Vanguard.

[Awesome Helmet]

Roxlimn wrote...

Awesome Helmet:

You totally didn't answer the question. The kind of Adept gameplay you want exists on Veteran. Play on that setting. Problem solved.

you obviously do not understand whats wrong with abilties in ME2 if you think playing on an easier difficulty is the answer to a problem like this.

IntrepidProdigy wrote...

ME2 is all about squad synergy
this time around. With the right squad, you can take down groups of
enemies on insane as an adept quicker than a soldier/infiltrator and
vice versa. When you take the right squad members on the proper
missions you'll find that it is quite rewarding. I almost think that
some of the people playing as biotics in this game don't know how to
strategize.

your squad mates only have 2 or 3 abilities, they do half your damamge, and their abilities take twice as long to recharge. sure the story might revolve around the squadmates, but the gameplay isnt about which ones you have with you and when. what happens differently if you take a different squadmate one time or the next? absolutely nothing. you wouldnt know the correct squad mates to take unless you played already anyways. i played 30+ biotics in ME1. dont tell me i dont know how to play with biotics. i am a biotic god. this game didnt do abilties correctly. there isnt any doubt about that.

Modifié par Awesome Helmet, 20 février 2010 - 06:56 .

[Roxlimn]

Awesome Helmet:

you obviously do not understand whats wrong with abilties in ME2 if you think playing on an easier difficulty is the answer to a problem like this.

The way I understand it, you want powers to work on nearly all enemies all the time, without any complication. Veteran does that for you. I don't see any real difference in difficulty between shooting an enemy for 4 seconds while he's helplessly floating in the air and shooting him for 2 seconds while he's helplessly floating in the air. It's similar, and shortening the kill time makes the game flow faster.



Play on Veteran.

[Roxlimn]

Awesome Helmet:



With all due respect, if you have difficulty employing Throw effectively on something as easy as Hardcore, then you have no firm grasp of reality if you're calling yourself a biotic god. Yes, you owned with Adept in ME1. Everyone did. It was that easy.