334 réponses à ce sujet

[z4t001]

my soldier with warp and disruptor ammo with all guns upgraded was hella fun.. not as fun as adept, but definitely more fun than something lame like sentinel or inf.



i believe adepts are still the most powerful class. singularity is balls-tarded strong. you just have to know how to use it. a vanguard might be able to kill as fast as a lvl 30 adept, but it'd be close.

[Graunt]

Athenau wrote...

Pssht. I will NEVER get tired of hosing things down with the Revenant.

Soldier is the biggest dps machine the game, and they're a deeper class than people give it credit for. Sure, you use adrenaline rush most of the time, but you can use that one skill in a lot of different ways (rushing up, sprinting from cover to cover, making a quick escape). I find that more interesting than a bunch of hard counters (mash, warp vs barrier, overload vs shield, *yawn*).

An aggressive soldier is a lot of fun to play. If you spend all your time behind cover you're missing out.

It's not like your sniper headshots while moving with AR up auto lock on and successfully cast unlike the aforementioned debuff abilities either.  There's quite a bit of game to play up before you can just "hold down the fire button and spray with the Revenant" and even after you get it, you aren't really playing that well if that's all you're trying to do.

I'm still laughing though at all of the people that still think Adepts require "tactics".  There's three things you do as an Adept and only three things:  Lock down whatever you can with Singularity, explode whatever you can with Warp (or simply strip something with Warp) and fire your gun all of which is from cover 95% of the time.  Yeah, that's super deep and challenging gameplay right there.  

vanguard might be able to kill as fast as a lvl 30 adept, but it'd be close

A Vanguard will kill significantly faster than an Adept on any map that doesn't have a huge skew of ranged, unchargable enemies.  And the only other areas where an Adept will pull ahead are gimmick fights like the platforms where enemies are nicely bunched up just waiting for three button presses to knock them all off.  It's amazing how many people still think an Adept does this a lot and they tend to forget that more than 4/5 of the game is single target killing.

Modifié par Graunt, 20 février 2010 - 07:28 .

[Roxlimn]

Graunt:

I'm still laughing though at all of the people that still think Adepts require "tactics". There's three things you do as an Adept and only three things: Lock down whatever you can with Singularity, explode whatever you can with Warp (or simply strip something with Warp) and fire your gun all of which is from cover 95% of the time. Yeah, that's super deep and challenging gameplay right there.

Um... ...Gatsby actually does more than that. In fact, several videos of Adept play show more than that. In any case, you labeled four things you can do with Adept powers, and it's not like Adepts are limited to that.



Did you know that Throw strips defenses? Bet you didn't!

[IntrepidProdigy]

Awesome Helmet wrote...


your squad mates only have 2 or 3 abilities, they do half your damamge, and their abilities take twice as long to recharge. sure the story might revolve around the squadmates, but the gameplay isnt about which ones you have with you and when. what happens differently if you take a different squadmate one time or the next? absolutely nothing. you wouldnt know the correct squad mates to take unless you played already anyways. i played 30+ biotics in ME1. dont tell me i dont know how to play with biotics. i am a biotic god. this game didnt do abilties correctly. there isnt any doubt about that.

Sounds like you're just bitter that things aren't going your way this time around. I played through ME1 16+ times. Mostly as a nemesis vanguard w/ singularity and had my squad mates' (garrus and wrex) assault rifles upgraded so that they could fire non-stop, I quite literally demolished insanity. I got through insanity in ME2 just as easily with my adept, all I needed to do was adjust to the new style of play that is demanded in ME2.  I just breezed through insanity with Mordin and Miranda at my side almost all the way through.

Contrary to your belief, squad mates actually do play an important role in gameplay. Squad-mates such as Mordin are designed to take out armored targets. incinerate blast will usually take a huge chunk out of multiple armored enemies (and one-shots husk/varren/mech/vorcha armor), Other squad-mates such as Miranda are centered around taking out shields (or in her case, shileds/barriers/armor). As an example: if you were to take Mordin and Grunt along with you during the Tali recruitment mission as an adept, you wouldn't be nearly as efficient as you would be if you took Garrus and Miranda due to the geth all being shielded. When using all powers in unison, everyone will go down as if they were one-shotted. Also, squad recharge times are a non-issue, because you DO have guns. SMGs are a great compensation for taking out barriers and shields if your squad-mates missed anyone with their power. It's not like their powers are on recharge for an entire battle.

[Graunt]

Roxlimn wrote...

Graunt:

I'm still laughing though at all of the people that still think Adepts require "tactics". There's three things you do as an Adept and only three things: Lock down whatever you can with Singularity, explode whatever you can with Warp (or simply strip something with Warp) and fire your gun all of which is from cover 95% of the time. Yeah, that's super deep and challenging gameplay right there.

Um... ...Gatsby actually does more than that. In fact, several videos of Adept play show more than that. In any case, you labeled four things you can do with Adept powers, and it's not like Adepts are limited to that.

Did you know that Throw strips defenses? Bet you didn't!

Did you know that I did know this and don't care because it's still much less effective than using Warp and guns?  Bet you didn't!

And let me clarify for you yet again; there are three rules an Adept follows:
Lockdown what you can with Singularity
Warp explode anything caught in Singularity or pull else Warp anyway - regardless, you're still hitting Warp
Shoot your gun

Modifié par Graunt, 20 février 2010 - 07:44 .

[Average Gatsby]

Graunt wrote...

Roxlimn wrote...

Graunt:

I'm still laughing though at all of the people that still think Adepts require "tactics". There's three things you do as an Adept and only three things: Lock down whatever you can with Singularity, explode whatever you can with Warp (or simply strip something with Warp) and fire your gun all of which is from cover 95% of the time. Yeah, that's super deep and challenging gameplay right there.

Um... ...Gatsby actually does more than that. In fact, several videos of Adept play show more than that. In any case, you labeled four things you can do with Adept powers, and it's not like Adepts are limited to that.

Did you know that Throw strips defenses? Bet you didn't!

Did you know that I did know this and don't care because it's still much less effective than using Warp and guns?  Bet you didn't!

And let me clarify for you yet again; there are three rules an Adept follows:
Lockdown what you can with Singularity
Warp explode anything caught in Singularity or pull else Warp anyway - regardless, you're still hitting Warp
Shoot your gun

Thats about 2 more things than soldier. And I don't think your the best person to really comment on anything at this point since:

Christina Norman wrote...

Graunt wrote...

Geth
have nearly double, if not triple the amount of protection than they do
actual life, same thing applies to husks.  Can't really say for sure
about humans, vorcha and krogans but heavy mechs have two layers of
protection and seem to only require a few seconds of fire to take down
as opposed to how long it took to strip them.  The generic security
bots also have more protection than life as do any of the Asari
Vanguards and other elite humanoids.  I'll check the collectors in a
minute.

Almost all this information is not correct, where is it coming from?

I think your the only person who has been so wrong about things so often that a dev took the time to actually say you didn't know what you were talking about.

[Roxlimn]

IntrepidProdigy:

I get the distinct impression that players who think that biotics "need fixing" in ME2 simply aren't that skilled at divergent thinking - finding the most uses out of a given set of tools, as it were. Take a look at Graunt's post above, and his comments elsewhere.

He actually calls AverageGatsby's "hype" because he believes that games don't go as smoothly as it does in Gatsby's videos. In fact, I get the impression that Gatsby is holding back specifically so that the action isn't as hectic and fast as it normally is. Using Singularity to prep Warp is slow because it's not instant (because it comes from Shepard) and it has a 4.5 base cool down - 1.5 seconds slower than Pull.

It's actually faster to find a center mook opponent, blast him with a defense stripping power from Shepard (like Area Energy Drain), then squad based Pull+Warp for the insta-blast and mass kill. Sentinel is situationally faster than Adept for this reason (Sentinel has Overload natively).

Strip to Pull-Warp is more efficient in terms of cool down and leads to faster battles.

Graunt makes no mention, even of Throw - perhaps the single fastest way to kill things when that function is available.

Graunt:

Did you know that I did know this and don't care because it's still much less effective than using Warp and guns?  Bet you didn't!

And let me clarify for you yet again; there are three rules an Adept follows:
Lockdown what you can with Singularity
Warp explode anything caught in Singularity or pull else Warp anyway - regardless, you're still hitting Warp
Shoot your gun

Er... ...that's actually not true.  For removing Barriers, Heavy Throw is every bit as effective as Unstable Warp because it has half the cool down.  It's also more accurate than guns and can fire around cover.  Where are you getting all this incorrect information?

I played Adept straight through on Hardcore using multiple build specs.  I've returned to saves from that game and am in the process of picking battles to play through on Insanity - not that different, so far, as it turns out.

I don't, as a rule, lock down opponents with Singularity unless they're Elite, since it just takes longer.  Faster to just kill them.  Too, Pull and Throw, either singly or together, or used with other powers, are very effective.  I don't follow your rules and I'm having a pretty good time playing through.  It's pretty fast.

Modifié par Roxlimn, 20 février 2010 - 07:54 .

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Roxlimn wrote...

IntrepidProdigy:

I get the distinct impression that players who think that biotics "need fixing" in ME2 simply aren't that skilled at divergent thinking - finding the most uses out of a given set of tools, as it were. Take a look at Graunt's post above, and his comments elsewhere.
.

Ah yes, when you have nothing to back you up resort to insulting other players.

The plain and simple fact is most biotics don't work unless defenses are stripped first. There is no deep though process that will correct that fact.

Thats about 2 more things than soldier. And I don't think your the best person to really comment on anything at this point since

The fact is the soldier classes are about shooting. Their abilityes, including the passives, increase their shooting ability.

Oh, and I don't see why you are going after him either. In your videos when you are not shooting you are usually casting singularity or warp with your adept too.

So maybe everybody can knock off the personal insults and attack a person's arguments rather than attack the person himself.  Leave the mudslinging for politicians.

[Average Gatsby]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

Roxlimn wrote...

IntrepidProdigy:

I get the distinct impression that players who think that biotics "need fixing" in ME2 simply aren't that skilled at divergent thinking - finding the most uses out of a given set of tools, as it were. Take a look at Graunt's post above, and his comments elsewhere.
.

Ah yes, when you have nothing to back you up resort to insulting other players.

The plain and simple fact is most biotics don't work unless defenses are stripped first. There is no deep though process that will correct that fact.

Thats about 2 more things than soldier. And I don't think your the best person to really comment on anything at this point since

The fact is the soldier classes are about shooting. Their abilityes, including the passives, increase their shooting ability.

Oh, and I don't see why you are going after him either. In your videos when you are not shooting you are usually casting singularity or warp with your adept too.

So maybe everybody can knock off the personal insults and attack a person's arguments rather than attack the person himself.  Leave the mudslinging for politicians.

I feel the need to respond because he has consistently called my videos dishonest, hype, that I'm not showing actual gameplay but choice segments, which is simply false. He has consistently been a voice of total inaccuracy, arrogance, and trolling. I would like to debate, but its hard to debate a point when one side is consistently making claims that "guns are better/adepts take no tactics" when they have zero evidence.

Another problem is the nature of the debate itself. I have never said adept is the strongest class. However, for someone to say something isn't the best is way different than someone saying it is weak and brainless. Which, if you think about it is a very ironic statement because how could a class so simple to use effectively also be weak.

I'm happy to debate the merits of ammo powers vs direct powers, but I'm also going to defend myself from personal attacks and trolling.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Roxlimn wrote...

Er... ...that's actually not true.  For removing Barriers, Heavy Throw is every bit as effective as Unstable Warp because it has half the cool down.  It's also more accurate than guns and can fire around cover.  Where are you getting all this incorrect information?

I played Adept straight through on Hardcore using multiple build specs.  I've returned to saves from that game and am in the process of picking battles to play through on Insanity - not that different, so far, as it turns out.

I don't, as a rule, lock down opponents with Singularity unless they're Elite, since it just takes longer.  Faster to just kill them.  Too, Pull and Throw, either singly or together, or used with other powers, are very effective.  I don't follow your rules and I'm having a pretty good time playing through.  It's pretty fast.

Actually, you are not taking into account  having to rise up and fire off the throws exactly when cooldown is finished. You are exposing yourself to enemy fire twice to do that and you won't always to be able to time it that way. I'd much rather have heavy warp and pull and throw as fields.

So you are shooting all non-elite enemies eh?

I think when you step on up to insanity you won't be getting in a whole lot of pulll-throw combos from your adept. You'll be needing to do a lot of casting of singularity to stop anvancing or flanking opponents or your squishy adept will be squished.

[Roxlimn]

Grumpy Old Wizard:

Ah yes, when you have nothing to back you up resort to insulting other players.



The plain and simple fact is most biotics don't work unless defenses are stripped first. There is no deep though process that will correct that fact.

Not at all. It is not an insult. Lots of very intelligent people aren't very good at divergent thinking. In fact, divergent thinking isn't even normally tested on the usual IQ exams. Most of the critique aimed at the Adept has come from incorrect information, and since the information is freely in the game for ANYONE to find out, the most likely situation is that people who critique the Adept based on incorrect information simply aren't testing enough hypotheses.



For instance, the Adept has Warp, Singularity, Pull, Throw, and Shockwave. Of those powers, Warp, Singularity, and Throw are effective against enemies that have defenses. That's three out of five powers. Your fact is not a fact at all, quite apart from the fact that having biotic powers work best on targets without defenses isn't as much of an issue as you're making it out to be.

[Roxlimn]

Grumpy Old Wizard:



I've actually been reloading my saves from Hardcore and replaying the battles on Insanity - didn't feel like going through all the convos again and everything. The game style I'm using isn't materially worse. If anything it's easier because I get more targets to hit with Warp Explosion after the first one because the mooks aren't as fragile. That's something of a plus, actually.



Normally, I have to take down the Elites manually. With so many mooks to explode, I'm doing it somewhat less.



And yes, I am taking into account the fact that you have to get up twice. This is because I've actually tried it out on both Insanity and Hardcore. I played the suicide mission on Hardcore and on Insanity as an Adept, with Heavy Throw and with Throw Field. Heavy Warp is nice enough when you've got a fresh target with no damage to his Barriers, but with Warp Explosion and random gunfire, that doesn't always happen. Sometimes, a Collector is at half Barriers or less, and in that case, Heavy Throw is definitely better.



Also, the option to reapply allows your mates to fire for stripping, and gives you freedom to fire off a Warp or Singularity against some other target if that target happens to advance unexpectedly fast. It's more flexible.



And actually, I'm using Pull and Throw more. This is because on Hardcore, Warp Explosion kills most undefended enemies right off. On Insanity, this is not necessarily the case, so I have to use adjunctive finishers more often. Just my experience.

[Riot Inducer]

ItsFreakinJesus wrote...

I've taken out enemy shields with warp several times, and I've used Overload to deal with armor.  Like base weapons, using powers on defenses they aren't strong against doesn't do the same amount of damage, as it should be.

The problem lies in biotics powers being unable to crowd control properly unless the enemy is down to their health.  As I said above, powers should knock enemies over regardless of their defenses.  Damage should be minimal, but if I use throw on an armored Krogan, it should at least fall down.

agreed, and it really is the immunity to crowd control abilities that bothers me. I wouldn't mind if one kind of protection caused immunity to throw/pull/shockwave/etc. but having any manner of defense granting immunity to the main focus (at least imo) of biotics is a bit much. 

[incinerator950]

One thing to remember is most people don't experience throws to be killing. Suicide Mission into the Collector base is also one of the easiest parts of the game, I died only 4-6 times compared to my ungodly mess on Horizon and the Collector vessel.



One thing most people overlook, even with the Combi-Biotic achievement, is that most people don't really know what a Warp Bomb is. Hell, most people overlook that the Vanguard's charge can bypass fights and directly end boss fights in under 5 minutes half the time, on Insanity.



Also, I think it's because people prefer killing with the fire arms, and expect the Powers to be atleast able to effect enemies.

[incinerator950]

incinerator950 wrote...

One thing to remember is most people don't experience throws to be killing. Suicide Mission into the Collector base is also one of the easiest parts of the game, I died only 4-6 times compared to my ungodly mess on Horizon and the Collector vessel.

One thing most people overlook, even with the Combi-Biotic achievement, is that most people don't really know what a Warp Bomb is. Hell, most people overlook that the Vanguard's charge can bypass fights and directly end boss fights in under 5 minutes half the time, on Insanity.

Also, I think it's because people prefer killing with the fire arms, and expect the Powers to be atleast able to effect enemies.

I forgot to mention that this was done on my Insanity run, when I only did two previous runs below Hardcore.  I can't even count how many times I died on Horizon, Omega, the Collector Vessel, I died ruffly 5-12 times on the Derelict Reaper, and 4-8 (no deaths on final boss, easy) on the Suicide Mission.

[Roxlimn]

incinerator950:



Well, Throw is actually also pretty useful for the Collector Vessel for the part where you fight on platforms, the one where you can get flanked from the left, and the one with the Praetorian (handy for Husks, dontchaknow).



I've been using Throw pretty extensively since I had to have 2 ranks in it as Sentinel, and I figured that I didn't have anywhere better to put the points in as Adept. It's been pretty spiffy.



It isn't true that defenses make enemies immune to Throw and Shockwave. May be same for Pull, though it's powerful enough that I don't think a minor effect against defended opponents is all that necessary.

[incinerator950]

My shockwave barely effected enemies, it stumbled them a little, but barely touched their Armor, shields, or Barrier. This is without me using my Small Arms or Warp/Reave to destroy defenses.



Infact this is the reason why I never use Shockwave or Throw, I'll test this out later, I have a few new toys I want to screw around with anyway.

[Roxlimn]

Not using Throw is a mistake. It's a very powerful power. Only the Derelict Reaper, Throw Field will allow you to kill Husks en masse, making your Singularity almost superfluous. You only need a short burst from an AR to strip their Armor. Strip one, then another, then Throw Field. That'll kill them both. As the power cools down (very quickly), order Incineration Blast from Mordin, then follow up with Throw Field again. Two more dead. Repeat as necessary.



On Ilium, the Suicide Mission, Tuchanka, and so on, there are no shortages of opportunities to use Throw to advantage. In any mission where there's a dead drop, Heavy Throw is functionally an insta-kill power if you can get hit an undefended enemy with it, and as you've played Insanity, you should know how getting an enemy killed (even in Health) can be challenging.



Haven't tested Shockwave on Shepard yet, but in combination with Unstable Warp Explosions stripping defenses... ...it owns on Jack.

[incinerator950]

Roxlimn wrote...

Not using Throw is a mistake. It's a very powerful power. Only the Derelict Reaper, Throw Field will allow you to kill Husks en masse, making your Singularity almost superfluous. You only need a short burst from an AR to strip their Armor. Strip one, then another, then Throw Field. That'll kill them both. As the power cools down (very quickly), order Incineration Blast from Mordin, then follow up with Throw Field again. Two more dead. Repeat as necessary.

On Ilium, the Suicide Mission, Tuchanka, and so on, there are no shortages of opportunities to use Throw to advantage. In any mission where there's a dead drop, Heavy Throw is functionally an insta-kill power if you can get hit an undefended enemy with it, and as you've played Insanity, you should know how getting an enemy killed (even in Health) can be challenging.

Haven't tested Shockwave on Shepard yet, but in combination with Unstable Warp Explosions stripping defenses... ...it owns on Jack.

I'll try that, I don't use shockwave much anyway.  I'll try to use Mordin more, but it's rather fun to have Zaeed around.  I got lucky, my AI team members actually don't die as often as my friends' do on their Insanity runs.  Yay

[Realmjumper]

All I know is there should be no whining when you have the difficulty chose throughout the entire game. It's called "Insanity" for a reason, because it's Insane duh!

[Roxlimn]

Incinerate950:



Tips:



1. Know where the drops are. There are a number on the Suicide mission. Pull+Throw is the single fastest way to kill a Drone in that area outside of sniper headshots. You don't even need Throw or Pull all the time - sometimes either one is good enough for the kill. On Platforms, especially, you don't even need to aim Throw all that precisely. Just curve your Throw such that it'll hit an undefended Collector on the opposite side of a Platform ledge and you should do fine.



If you're unsure about approaching the Collector to position for the killing Throw, well, Pull him, then Throw him.



Throw Field is better for Husks, Heavy Throw is better against Barriers.

[incinerator950]

I'll try this, I'll take Heavy Throw, I have Warp for Barriers.



I beat the Collector ship, I used the Black Storm a few times. What was killing me was a few good shots to a flank that I couldn't get to in time. Praetorian fights are actually easy on Insanity imo.

[TheShizzo]

OP:



I don;'t think it's all grim for biotics, yet, if anything it makes it more fun for me. In ME1 everything was was a biotic's playground. Granted, it was fun, but it got boring after a while due to being too easy. ME2 however gives me reason to pick certain team mates and actualy USE their powers as if they were my own to have the same affect. I can't tell you how awesome it is to lay a singularity trap just to have 4 shielded mobs run right through it thinking they are safe....then all the sudden 2 overloads have all their shields gone, they are air-borne, and I am slapping a warp explosion on the entire group. I feel that it is an improvement, but I like a more tactical, strategic approach to combat. I'm one of those people who will hold shift for 20 seconds in mid comabt deciding what I want to do for the next 4-5 actions.

[incinerator950]

Adept is a more tactical class, it's not an easy one to use, which is why when people pointlessly bother to make class Tiers, Adept's usually at the bottom.

[superimposed]

The only thing which presents a problem to me are Krogans. Every other enemy does more damage, and has more health, but the basic strategy you pick up on in normal works on insanity difficulty.

Krogans are helpless against biotics, but only once you've got their armor down.



If you have warp, overload and incinerate in your repitoire, it doesn't matter which class you are.