334 réponses à ce sujet

[mundus66]

dissonance-zaon wrote...

IntrepidProdigy wrote...

The advantage that a nemesis vanguard had over a soldier with that squad is that he has CC while using Garrus and Wrex (both using spectre assault rifles with 1x rail extension VII/scram rail X, 1x frictionless materials X, 1x shredder/tungstan VII). Not only do you have 2 warps (yours being better than Wrex's with nemesis specialty), but you have the ability to hold an entire room in place, allowing you to place your squad in the middle of the room to shred everything with their infinite assault rifles and your master marksman pistol (I also believe that nemesis gave you a 21%+ increase to pistol/shotgun damage). Every other squad combination that I tried in ME1 utterly paled in comparison to how fast this vanguard set-up can take down any encounter on insanity.

That does sound pretty damn effective. Though I doubt a Soldier/Wrex/Liara setup would have problems either and be just as effective (if not a few seconds behind) + 1 little thing: Immunity. For me, that's a scale tipper; Where otherwise I'd whole heartedly agree with you.

Soldier, Wrex and Liara does not have the cc or damage of a vanguard, Garrus and Wrex. Nor do they have decryption which makes you unable to hack things (not a big deal i know but still) and sabotage is good vs bots, turrents and geth colossus the only things you cant cc. Also Liara dies sometimes Garrus and Wrex doesn't.

As i said i earlier, i have first hand experince with all but sentinel and engineer on a full insanity run and the class being the fastest, most fun and also the most broken imo is a nemesis vanguard, adept comes close. Soldier and infiltrator are also unkillable and broken, but Saren and big trash packs does not go down as fast. Even geth colossus drops faster as vanguard, not as adept though.

Also bastion adept does indeed have the best cc in the game even though vanguard has adrenaline burst for 2 singularities in 2 seconds, but squad members do not shoot mobs in statis, which imo makes it a pretty bad talent. I prefer nemesis even as adept.

Modifié par mundus66, 22 février 2010 - 05:26 .

[IntrepidProdigy]

dissonance-zaon wrote...


That does sound pretty damn effective. Though I doubt a Soldier/Wrex/Liara setup would have problems either and be just as effective (if not a few seconds behind) + 1 little thing: Immunity. For me, that's a scale tipper; Where otherwise I'd whole heartedly agree with you.

The thing about the vanguard on insanity in ME1 is that defense buffs present little more than aesthetic value (depending on how good you are). With the combination of adrenaline rush and your already fast cooldowns for your powers, I rarely if ever got your shields dropped. Another plus that a nemesis vanguard had was nemesis lift. I've ended what would otherwise be tedious encounters (like the armature fight that had geth hoppers on Therum and many other fights where there is an insta-kill barrier) with nemesis lift by lifting groups of enemies out of the area.

Another plus was that you can have Garrus with you, who would double as a permanent "techie" (tech squad-mates had the advantage of helping you unlock crates and doors in key areas). I believe that the commando-soldier was a close second, but the vanguard just had a full arsenal.  It would have been better if he could have both singularity and warp as a bonus talent at the same time so that you could have 2 squad-mates firing ARs non-stop since he still has the highest weapon DPS. Even then you would be missing out on nemesis lift which was like what the cain is to ME2 (granted that it was a bit more situational).

[dissonance-zaon]

mundus66 wrote...

Soldier, Wrex and Liara does not have the cc or damage of a vanguard, Garrus and Wrex. Nor do they have decryption which makes you unable to hack things (not a big deal i know but still) and sabotage is good vs bots, turrents and geth colossus the only things you cant cc. Also Liara dies sometimes Garrus and Wrex doesn't.

As i said i earlier, i have first hand experince with all but sentinel and engineer on a full insanity run and the class being the fastest, most fun and also the most broken imo is a nemesis vanguard, adept comes close. Soldier and infiltrator are also unkillable and broken, but Saren and big trash packs does not go down as fast. Even geth colossus drops faster as vanguard, not as adept though.

Also bastion adept does indeed have the best cc in the game even though vanguard has adrenaline burst for 2 singularities in 2 seconds, but squad members do not shoot mobs in statis, which imo makes it a pretty bad talent. I prefer nemesis even as adept.

Again, I'd agree if it weren't for Immunity. Damage output reaches a point with both Soldier & Vanguard to become a non-issue. But survivability is always an issue. Can't do damage if you take a rocket or two in the face and die. Sure you could argue "don't get hit by a rocket". But then you're factoring in skill (albeit not much), which varies from person to person. Immunity on the other hand eliminates those variables to all but the worst of players (and you got to be pretty damn bad to die with Immunity on).

I don't know what else to say at this point. Other than this whole debate being off topic lol

[mundus66]

double post

Modifié par mundus66, 22 février 2010 - 06:48 .

[mundus66]

dissonance-zaon wrote...

Again, I'd agree if it weren't for Immunity. Damage output reaches a point with both Soldier & Vanguard to become a non-issue. But survivability is always an issue. Can't do damage if you take a rocket or two in the face and die. Sure you could argue "don't get hit by a rocket". But then you're factoring in skill (albeit not much), which varies from person to person. Immunity on the other hand eliminates those variables to all but the worst of players (and you got to be pretty damn bad to die with Immunity on).

I don't know what else to say at this point. Other than this whole debate being off topic lol

With barrier you can take 5 rockets to the face easily, it never goes down before the next one is up. And enemies never gets to shoot rockets anyway so its not an issue.

I guess if you are a really really bad player, there might be 1 or 2 encounters in the game where you could die, but aside from this every situation is easier with vanguard or adept since all you have to do is hammer 1,2,3 and 4 while you watch as your squad obliterate your enemies. Soldier and infiltrator you have to aim and the brief second when immunity goes of cooldown you could die (unlikely).

Edit. But yeah we should probably stop posting now 3 pages of of topic is never good.

Modifié par mundus66, 22 février 2010 - 06:51 .

[dissonance-zaon]

mundus66 wrote...

With barrier you can take 5 rockets to the face easily, it never goes down before the next one is up.

Barrier doesn't protect against rockets. If it did, my Adept wouldn't be 1 shot by them. As to how you're taking 5 is questionable. I don't even remember surviving 2 with my Vanguard on Hardcore. Gross exaggeration? Or faulty memory on my part?

Modifié par dissonance-zaon, 22 février 2010 - 07:28 .

[Devos]

Pistol Singularity Vanguard is overall better than a Soldier I find but all of the ME1 classes are surprisingly close in ability when used well. Immunity is great but Vanguards can lock down anything other than flyers or a Thresher Maw and Turrets which is where a lot of their survability comes from. There are plenty of situations where the Soldier outshines the Vanguard but on net I find the Vanguard. Soldiers aren't invincible, I actually die more often on a Soldier at high levels, always from being stun locked, Vanguard CC is better at preventing that. There are lots of situations which are more dangerous for Vanguards maybe I'm just more aware of that.

dissonance-zaon wrote...

Barrier doesn't protect against rockets. If it did, my Adept wouldn't be 1 shot by them. As to how you're taking 5 is questionable. I don't even remember surviving 2 with my Vanguard on Hardcore. Gross exaggeration? Or faulty memory on my part?

It depends what from. Heavy Turrets will kill most barrier users in one hit as will a colossi. It's not barrier doesn't work it just doesn't do enough. Shock Trooper Vanguards with Medium Colossus with Barrier up can survive one hit and still have a decent chunk of health to account for other attackers but without a swift first aid and a shield boost/barrier refresh the next one will get them. Against rocket troopers and other turrets barrier is effective.

[mundus66]

Not sure if i was shock trooper or nemesis (i played many vanguards) but i'm confident that i still had barrier left after taking a direct hit from a geth colossus (on insanity) and by the time he shoots another your barrier is up again. I never get shot by heavy turrets or geth colossus though (with any class) thanks to sabotage. Barrier protects you well vs anything else and should never go down before its up again.

Edit dont wanna make another post.

@ devos, i am confident that it was a geth colossus and im also confident that with 2x damage reduce implants and battlemaster armor, you can take a hit without barrier and still survive.

Modifié par mundus66, 23 février 2010 - 05:16 .

[Devos]

Might have been an armature, also I think (but I'm not sure) you can get hit with the splash for a reduced amount. I've certainly been one shotted as a Bastion Sentinel with Master Barrier and a Savant Amp so a direct hit definitely drops barrier.



Getting hit by heavy turrets and Colossi is avoidable if you are careful (or don't get out the Mako, but I actually find that harder) but those big hitters are much less of hazard to immunity users. immunity does in practice provide better survivability in some situations but most of the time barrier is more than you need.

[Awesome Helmet]

you know what i think is great?



an ME2 forum about ME2 classes, and here we are talking about ME1 classes.



if thats not enough proof to bioware that they ****ED UP biotics, then i dont know what else is.

[agustfr]

You do realize that only a handfull of you constantly whine and moan about ME2 biotics right?

Perhaps about 0.5% of the forum posters, if that.

About 10% of those that read these forums actually post or somewhere around that figure.

A very small percentage of people who actually bought and play ME2 go to these forums, AT ALL.



No this is not proof that ME2´s biotics are ****ed up, this is proof that a few of you cant adjust to the changes Bioware did. You want things exactly like you think they should be, and because they are not, you cry like spoiled little brats in a corner thinking that if you do it enough, you will eventually get your way.

I´d venture a guess that you few that constantly moan about ME2´s biotics, represent about 0.01% of the player base, and thats being very optimistic.

[Schneidend]

Oh NOES, biotics aren't an I Win button any more. They're terrible!

Biotics are fine. Singularity, Charge, Warp, and Warp Ammo crush your enemies into the dust. Even Pull has its uses when applied to a shielded/barrier'd/armored enemy you're about to shoot with a Warp Ammo'd heavy pistol or shotgun.

[tonnactus]

_-Greywolf-_ wrote...



Actually Soldier is the most powerful class,

Nothing is more powerfull then too stasis a harbringer with singularity.Singularity is the most powerfull talent in the game.

Modifié par tonnactus, 23 février 2010 - 12:58 .

[Awesome Helmet]

agustfr wrote...

You do realize that only a handfull of you constantly whine and moan about ME2 biotics right?
Perhaps about 0.5% of the forum posters, if that.
About 10% of those that read these forums actually post or somewhere around that figure.
A very small percentage of people who actually bought and play ME2 go to these forums, AT ALL.

No this is not proof that ME2´s biotics are ****ed up, this is proof that a few of you cant adjust to the changes Bioware did. You want things exactly like you think they should be, and because they are not, you cry like spoiled little brats in a corner thinking that if you do it enough, you will eventually get your way.
I´d venture a guess that you few that constantly moan about ME2´s biotics, represent about 0.01% of the player base, and thats being very optimistic.

pft. nobodys crying here. lets say you love mcdonalds cheeseburgers. lets say all of the sudden they tasted like crap, would you complain about it? or would you accept the fact that you now have to eat crappy burgers for the rest of your life? bioware does look at this forum and make its games with the help of posters in here. why do you think blasto is in ME2? why do you think the vnaguard has charge and the infiltrator has cloak. all ideas stemming from posters in this forum.  id say your 99% douche with a dash of more douche.

Schneidend wrote...

Oh NOES, biotics aren't an I Win button any more. They're terrible!

thats my point tho. biotics should be the i win button. your telling me just becasue your wearing "armor" i cant throw you into a wall? i love biotics. i just think they should be able to be used in the majority of situations.

whats the point of being luke skywalker if i couldnt use the force?

Modifié par Awesome Helmet, 23 février 2010 - 02:07 .

[baller7345]

Awesome Helmet wrote...

agustfr wrote...

You do realize that only a handfull of you constantly whine and moan about ME2 biotics right?
Perhaps about 0.5% of the forum posters, if that.
About 10% of those that read these forums actually post or somewhere around that figure.
A very small percentage of people who actually bought and play ME2 go to these forums, AT ALL.

No this is not proof that ME2´s biotics are ****ed up, this is proof that a few of you cant adjust to the changes Bioware did. You want things exactly like you think they should be, and because they are not, you cry like spoiled little brats in a corner thinking that if you do it enough, you will eventually get your way.
I´d venture a guess that you few that constantly moan about ME2´s biotics, represent about 0.01% of the player base, and thats being very optimistic.

pft. nobodys crying here. lets say you love mcdonalds cheeseburgers. lets say all of the sudden they tasted like crap, would you complain about it? or would you accept the fact that you now have to eat crappy burgers for the rest of your life? bioware does look at this forum and make its games with the help of posters in here. why do you think blasto is in ME2? why do you think the vnaguard has charge and the infiltrator has cloak. all ideas stemming from posters in this forum.  id say your 99% douche with a dash of more douche.

Schneidend wrote...

Oh NOES, biotics aren't an I Win button any more. They're terrible!

thats my point tho. biotics should be the i win button. your telling me just becasue your wearing "armor" i cant throw you into a wall? i love biotics. i just think they should be able to be used in the majority of situations.

whats the point of being luke skywalker if i couldnt use the force?

I think he was just trying to say just because you don't like the way the adept now plays doesn't mean there aren't people that do.

In my opinion nothing should be an "instant win" button. If there was a lot of the challenge would be gone and lets not forget even Luke Skywalker had fights that he didn't win easily.

I think the changes they've made put some people off but it doesn't mean that biotics are weak it just means they can't be played with the same play style as they wer in Mass Effect 1.  I'm not trying to convince you that you should all of a sudden see the  light and start praising the adept I'm just trying to say that just because they don't fit what you like doesn't mean there are people that don't find other aspects of them very appealing.  Honestly I think this arguement is pointless because there will always be people that think some aspects of classes are weak and some aspects of classes are strong, it all comes down to personal preference.

[Roxlimn]

Awesome Helmet:



You can still do that - just not on Insanity, which is understandable. Insanity is for people who want a challenge. Presumably, if you want an "I win," button, you want to win easily, which you can still do on Veteran.



What's wrong with playing on Veteran.



And no, don't say this is about Insanity. Clearly, you want to play an easy game. That is not appropriate for that difficulty setting.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Schneidend wrote...

Oh NOES, biotics aren't an I Win button any more. They're terrible!

Biotics are fine. Singularity, Charge, Warp, and Warp Ammo crush your enemies into the dust. Even Pull has its uses when applied to a shielded/barrier'd/armored enemy you're about to shoot with a Warp Ammo'd heavy pistol or shotgun.

OH NOES, somebody said the game is not perfect!  Mommmeeee! Waaaaaaah! Wahhhhh! Waaaaaaaaaaah!!!

I noticed you mentioned warp ammo. That is not a biotic skill. Weapons and ammo are much more strong than biotics. It is informative that you are shooting a lot and using ammo powers on the "biotic master",is it not?

Pull really is not very useful against protection. Warp does far more damage and you have to expose yourself to fire only once.

The soldier classes play the same way on each difficulty level. Not the adept. He becomes a spammer of singularity and wap. Of course he could become a gimped soldier, picking up a gun and using ammo powers and shooting.

[ODST Steve]

I can't wait to try Adept.

[Wompoo]

ME2 classes feel just way to generic at times... nothing more then 2 abilities being spammed over and over. Just to simplified. If this was a multilayer game I could understand why (and I wouldn't buy the game), but it isn't. Cover system is over used (it is broken as well: get stuck or slide up walls). AI is nothing more then spam attacks on the PC. I loved Biotics in ME1... in ME2 there is something lacking and almost as dull as the story this time around.

[Roxlimn]

Grumpy Old Wizard:

The soldier classes play the same way on each difficulty level. Not the adept. He becomes a spammer of singularity and wap. Of course he could become a gimped soldier, picking up a gun and using ammo powers and shooting.

Pull and Throw are useful on Insanity. I can say that now with certainty since I've been playing Insanity after completing a full Hardcore playthrough. Warp Ammo is not necessary. You can pick whichever ammo power you want. Heck, use Barrier. It's not that important. If you use Pull and Throw for killing, you don't need ammo powers.

[Awesome Helmet]

Roxlimn wrote...

Awesome Helmet:

You can still do that - just not on Insanity, which is understandable. Insanity is for people who want a challenge. Presumably, if you want an "I win," button, you want to win easily, which you can still do on Veteran.

What's wrong with playing on Veteran.

And no, don't say this is about Insanity. Clearly, you want to play an easy game. That is not appropriate for that difficulty setting.

my problem isnt with weapons. im not looking to kill things faster, or have a biotic power that kills everything on screen. im not looking for easy. i want to play this game as an adept. i want to use my biotics. i dont want to be a
gimped soldier, who can use biotics once they shoot their weapons
enough. you just dont understand what the adept should be. im not looking to kill things faster with my guns. this is something those "play on an easier setting person" doesnt understand. i want to play aa an ADEPT! its as simple as that.

i want this:

"Adepts are biotic specialists, capable of disabling and killing enemies with raw biotic
power. While they lack advanced combat training, they are the best at
defeating enemies without firing a shot."

im dealing with the way biotics work in ME2. i dont have a problem with the game really, i think its alot of fun. i just think bioware ruined the greatness of being a biotic by limiting the usage of biotics. as well as every other ability thats blocked by armor.

and its not just biotics that are at a disadvantage. armor blocking abilities and global cooldowns are what i have a problem with. global cooldowns, especially having ALL your cooldowns as one, is a horrible idea. theres not alot of variation in class builds becasue they are all build exactly the same. theres no point in having a forum solely for builds/classes, when every class is leveled the same way. biotics are a let down in ME2, and it sucks. especially for anyone who played with ME1 biotics.

if you disagree, im ok with that. this topic isnt here for you.

[agustfr]

"pft. nobodys crying here. lets say you love mcdonalds cheeseburgers. lets say all of the sudden they tasted like crap, would you complain about it? or would you accept the fact that you now have to eat crappy burgers for the rest of your life?"



Actually, if the burger was just bad, I would complain.

If how ever mcdonalds had taken the burger I usually bought, decided to remove the pickles and add anchovies I would simply not buy it anymore since it was obviously a conscious decision on their part to change the product.

Two different things there.

Bioware obviously decided that the classes should all be at its core, a soldier. Which is logical, a solder that is specialized differently to suit different prefered play styles.

The "soldier" class in the game is a straight up blast things in the face, easy mode class to suit those that have the most fun playing straight up FPS style games. Run and gun, and it works very well as such. And since its so straight forward and simple, it often seems like you do things quicker. While the other classes are weaker at the shooting part, having less variety of weapons and weapon boosting skills, but more utility.

It comes down to personal preference in the end. I have no problems clearing areas very quickly as an adept, or as an engineer, or a sentinel. Its not as straight forward as Adr.rush+shoot things till they die, or cloak+headshots, but with team-mates and combos, its fast and in some cases faster and easier than on the soldier.

I fully understand that the adept does not play as you want it to on the two top difficulty levels, and thats its not as mindnumbigly powerfull as it was in ME1.

Yes I often wish my adept skills worked better on defended targets on insanity, but I can understand however why they are the way they are, if they worked through all defenses there would be no point in the higher difficulties as an adept. You would mop up the baddies just as easilly as you would on normal or veteran.

What irks me the most, is the notion that a biotic user should not use all his tools, and that using guns to complement the biotics is somehow a sign of weakness for the class, and that because of one comment from the designers early on, you should be able to clear the game without firing a shot. (which you can, its just not insta mop up, jedi power clusterfu**).

I have no trouble playing an adept on insanity, or any of the other classes. Some encounters are easier than others, and thats how it should be.

[Awesome Helmet]

i want mind numbingly powerful though. dont you? thats why i played ME1 over 30 times. because my shepard kicked major ass. was there any enemy that shepard couldnt kill on their own? shepard used to be a killing machine. now hes just as powerfull as any other random soldier.



its a good point you made about all the classes being soldiers at heart with specialties to use in some situations. its kindof a bad thing in my opinion tho. its almost like they have this great combat now, and they are forcing us all to use it. i suppose i was looking forward to using biotics like crazy in ME2. i sortof assumed biotics would replace weapons in this game but thats not the direction they went.



maybe all i can say is "oh well."

[agustfr]

Honestly man I think that is the major contributing factor as to why some of you feel the biotics suck, you were expecting.. well basically an uber mage type class.

But you know, a custom difficulty setting is possible with the editors that are out, and you can recreate almost the same feeling as ME1 by using that.

For me personally, I love the way the adept plays this time around. I don't want to be a one man army, I dont want to bat my eyelids and insta gib everything in the room.

I want to feel like I am a better soldier than those on my team because I make the best choice for a given situation, not because of some super-human ability to kick ass

But that's just me.



I do how ever feel that its very possible to kiss-ass in a very efficient way as a biotic user, and I feel Gatspy has shown a lot of people how to do so through his multiple videos.

The latest of which " shows very heavy use of biotics to very quickly clear the baddies.

I use Gatspy as an example purely because he has been very active in making videos featuring the adept.

Anyways.. rock on with your bad self!

[Schneidend]

Kronner's Vanguard videos:



Sinosleep's Vanguard videos:



Average Gatsby's Adept videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKyITZ5FsKI



/thread