24 réponses à ce sujet

[TheDFO]

First, I should say that this is only my third playthrough (two on normal, one on Hardcore). This playthrough is primarily for achievements (skill uses, kills, teammates, renegade, and insanity)

Alright, what class should I do? (And what specialization?)

I'm thinking, in no particular order:
Adept (game+, currently lvl 49)
    -Bastion          -Nemisis (was a Bastion so I could spam biotics for achievements, and liked being able to kill statsised people)
Infilitrator (Fresh, lvl 0)
    -Commando   -Operative (leaning towards Commando, cause I like Sniping)
Sentinel (Fresh, lvl 0)
    -Bastion           -Medic
Engineer (Fresh, lvl 0)
    -Medic               -Operative

Well? What do you guys think? My teammates would be one of: Kaiden, Liara, or Wrex (the ones I need the achievement for). I'm thinking about not doing Liara, because I'm gonna try and level up as much as I can on the citadel before I leave, and I think that rules out the Liara achievement. I'm currently thinking about playing as an Infilitrator, so I can import that into ME2 for Insanity and the incinerate achievement (the only two I'm missing).

Modifié par TheDFO, 20 février 2010 - 12:47 .

[Karstedt]

A Wrex and Kaiden team could work with any of those since Kaiden can go tech or biotic heavy and Wrex can tank.

You can change your class on an imported character in ME2, so planning ahead for class is unnecessary.

[TheDFO]

Karstedt wrote...

A Wrex and Kaiden team could work with any of those since Kaiden can go tech or biotic heavy and Wrex can tank.
You can change your class on an imported character in ME2, so planning ahead for class is unnecessary.

Yeah, I know, but still, I'd just as soon keep the same class.

[The Grey Ranger]

I'd say go with the infiltrator, and commando spec. Kaiden and Wrex would work pretty well with that. A new engineer could be a pretty rough insanity playthrough, if you don't have your tactics worked out (they tend to be a bit squishy) and infiltrator will cover pretty much all the good skills that an engineer has, especially if you take AI hacking as your bonus.

[Karstedt]

I disagree about the Engineer. I think people are just using it wrong. The only really disadvantaged class on insanity is the soldier. Since DPS is crippled by super high enemy damage res, having some powers is critical. And you won't become an invincible immunity spammer until you're pretty far in, by which time most classes are fairly easy to run anyway and you've already passed some of the hardest fights in the game.

[The Grey Ranger]

I've played engineers and enjoyed it (even on insanity). It's just that the only things they bring to the table that an infiltrator doesn't are neural shock and ai hacking and personally neural shock just doesn't really do a whole lot for me. I find it useful for an engi panic skill, when a krogan is charging but thats about it.

I'd agree that there are some hard fights early, but you can minimize them with the right quest order such as going to Barla Von instead of Chora's Den, and doing Feros before Therum and Noveria.   It's not hard to leave the citadel at level 11 or 12 especially if you're not worried about grabbing Liara as early as possible.

Modifié par The Grey Ranger, 20 février 2010 - 10:05 .

[caspertjuhh2]

 Adept, hands down. use Wrex as squad mate one, and any other. Stay in cover and lift/singularity/trow/crowdcontorl enemies, while your tank wrex eats them up

[Devos]

Even on Insanity it's not a difficult game, NG+ almost any character and it should be easy. Breaking down the classes regardless, characters with Immunity are the easiest, you should very rarely die. Infiltrators are good, they have decent ability set but I find them very slow as they lack disables. Singularity/Lift soldiers are pretty good. Forgoing Immunity, Singularity Vanguard, they're like an adept except mostly better. Bastion Adepts, Sentinels can be good choice for Bastion Stasis though to get the most out of a sentinel you have to be comfortable enough with the toughness of enemies on insanity to not need a gun bonus talent. Engineers are fine but are the easiest class to get wrong.

RE Engineers: The reason Engineer considered useless is that they have horrible survivability with their innate skills. You pretty much have to use their bonus talent to compensate, typically with barrier. Infiltrator is pretty much the same thing once you commit  the bonus talent to hacking minus neural shock and with Sniper Rifles thrown in for good measure. Though I think people tend to misunderstand the engineer by overlooking Neural Shock and Medic. I think there is a tendancy to see Medic as pointless because of the first aid focus but I think it's the better spec. Tech mines, with hacking already refresh much faster than you are going to need them most of the time and their damage is a lost cause. Overload Specialization is quite nice but not that great. Where as Medic buffs Neural Shock. Neural Shock easy to overlook because it's so outshone by biotic disables but it's a disable on your character, it's one more than you would other wise have, and if you leave squad powers active, that one is very important. You can't damage things while they are in cover so the ability to make something sit in front of you while you shoot it is incredibly useful and I find that conspicously missing when I play an Infilitrator. Singularity/Lift Soldiers have a similar edge over Infiltrators. While overall Infiltrators remain the better package than either both are solid options.

Karstedt wrote...

The only really disadvantaged class on
insanity is the soldier. Since DPS is crippled by super high enemy
damage res, having some powers is critical. And you won't become an
invincible immunity spammer until you're pretty far in, by which time
most classes are fairly easy to run anyway and you've already passed
some of the hardest fights in the game.

Actually I find it's the other way around, Soldier's DPS advantage only matters on insanity. You can get master Immunity at level 16 which is by the end of Therum if you do it first, though you can't quite perma it before getting a spec class with AB you can get close. Everything scales through so proportionally damage buffs give the same benefit where as the difference in absolute terms is actually larger. But DPS isn't really the selling point  of the soldier class, especially since Infiltrators are more or less equal. Immunity, AB + Bonus Talent. Soldier is the only class that can deliver that package.

Modifié par Devos, 20 février 2010 - 08:04 .

[Karstedt]

Devos wrote...

Soldier's DPS advantage only matters on insanity. You can get master Immunity at level 16 which is by the end of Therum if you do it first, though you can't quite perma it before getting a spec class with AB you can get close.

That's kind my point though. If you spend all inistial efforts going for immunity spam, you won't have the great DPS benefit for the hardest part of the game (IE the first 20 or so levels). Additionally, the DPS is realtively useless against other immunity spamming enemies. A better counter for those guys is sabotage or some disabling biotc while you wait for the immunity to go away, at which point the extra DPS isn't necessary because anyone can take down even a non-immune krogan easily. The extra powers to shut down enemies during the first 20-25 levels will leave you far less likely to have any 'accidental' deaths.

For example, with the right squad choices for my class, I can charge the Therum Krogan and take him out first and then clean up the geth with pretty much any class exept soldier at level 15. Having that extra lift, throw, or even neural shock is what can put him down without a fight while still having enough sabotage to keep the geth useless.

Another example is the Chora's den assasins... you will almost certainly not have decent immunity when encountering them, and they will run over you if you can't disable them.

[Devos]

Karstedt wrote...

That's kind my point though. If you spend all inistial efforts going for immunity spam, you won't have the great DPS benefit for the hardest part of the game (IE the first 20 or so levels). Additionally, the DPS is realtively useless against other immunity spamming enemies. A better counter for those guys is sabotage or some disabling biotc while you wait for the immunity to go away, at which point the extra DPS isn't necessary because anyone can take down even a non-immune krogan easily. The extra powers to shut down enemies during the first 20-25 levels will leave you far less likely to have any 'accidental' deaths.

Yet this isn't universally true. Armatures, Colossi, the tougher Geth, Creepers, none use immunity, they don't have particularly high damage reductions, but they all have fairly chunky health bars. Even non-immune Krogan take enough punishment for the extra DPS to matter. Why sabotage an immunity user? They're usually merc types which means they switch weapons, if you want to wait it out, immunity works better. Alternatively they're a Krogan in which case sabotaging them is a distinctly bad idea. But then again any half sensible soldier build will include Warp, Lift or Singularity any way. So no, their in practice slight DPS boost over an engineer or Adept it isn't a big deal but it's not useless and it doesn't kick in especially late (mid twenties-ish usually for me).

For example, with the right squad choices for my class, I can charge
the Therum Krogan and take him out first and then clean up the geth
with pretty much any class exept soldier at level 15. Having that extra
lift, throw, or even neural shock is what can put him down without a
fight while still having enough sabotage to keep the geth useless.

I find soldiers the fastest boot strapping class. At 16 the soldier can have 40 seconds of immunity, AR at 7, advanced AB and their bonus talent at 12. At that level it doesn't actually make much difference that they don't have an amp/omni-tool and class to back their bonus tallent, it matters a lot more they have AB. IIRC last time I played through I was level 17 when I hit that fight.

Another example is the Chora's den assasins... you will almost
certainly not have decent immunity when encountering them, and they
will run over you if you can't disable them.

And other classes are better off? Characters that have bonus singularity can drop them off the map to kill them, ironically adepts won't have that option since it's unlikely they will have unlocked it, same with lift. Other than singularity the one ability that makes that fight easy is the ability to site a sniper rifle even with no points in the tallent. Despite the massive wobble they are close enough to be easy to hit and it takes big chunks out their health. Singularity Soldier has both and AB.

[Karstedt]

Devos wrote...

Yet this isn't universally true. Armatures,
Colossi, the tougher Geth, Creepers, none use immunity, they don't have
particularly high damage reductions, but they all have fairly chunky
health bars.

Umm... are we playing the same game?
Creepers have like 90% damage resistance on insanity. They practiaclly have permanet immunity built in. You can blast them
10 times with a shotgun at point blank. The entire Feros Creeper run is
all about managing your heat so you don't get cought with 4 Creepers up
close and pukeing on you. Armatures and Colossi are very resiliant too.
On Virmire at level 55 on insanity, I used Wrex and Tali  both with
shotguns (level X, non Spectre) along with my own shotgun (Specter X) at
point blank range with tungsten rounds while perpetually sabotaging and
lifting the Colossus, and they still take a good 15+ shots from all three shooters after shields
are down.

Even non-immune Krogan take enough
punishment for the extra DPS to matter. Why sabotage an immunity user?
They're usually merc types which means they switch weapons, if you want
to wait it out, immunity works better.

I can take down a
non-immune krogan on insanity within seconds with a pistol without
marksman. They are weak without immunity. Like I said, even with weak
low level character and guns, I can dispatch the Therum krogan in about 5
seconds at the outset of the fight if I have enough powers to keep him
off his feet while sabotaging the geth. I also sabotage immune mercs
with shotguns when 3 of them charge my group blasting and you can only
put down one at a time anyway. Get them off that damn shotgun and they
start backing off while you pin one and finish him off.

I find soldiers the fastest boot strapping class. At 16 the soldier can
have 40 seconds of immunity, AR at 7, advanced AB and their bonus talent
at 12.

Take that level 16 soldier to a merc outpost. 40
seconds of immunity will keep you alive while you get charged by 4 or 5
equally unkillable immunity mercs in pairs. Even with adrenaline, you
aren't nearly prema immune enough to out last them. The only saving
grace there would be if you maxxed singularity, buecause youre level 16
squad won't be able to control the mercs. I've done exatly this, and
it's a nightmare. Control is much more feasible and far less risky.

And
other classes are better off? Characters that have bonus singularity
can drop them off the map to kill them, ironically adepts won't have
that option since it's unlikely they will have unlocked it, same with
lift. Other than singularity the one ability that makes that fight easy
is the ability to site a sniper rifle even with no points in the
tallent. Despite the massive wobble they are close enough to be easy to
hit and it takes big chunks out their health. Singularity Soldier has
both and AB.

Yes other classes are better off. Firstly,
any class can take bonus singularity or lift which will make that fight
easier. Secondly, the assasins have good immunity on insanity even at
that low level and a poorly developed sniper skill might take chunks
when they aren't immune, but you won't have many shots to do so and they
run around like chickens. They also rush'n'retreat with shotguns so you
can't just take cover and pick them off even if you could do enough
damage in the un-immune window. Even if you can't flip these buggers
over the ledge, control powers will keep one from shotgunning your
backside so you can exploit the other one. Plus, at this level grenades
are usseful. They will probably do as much damage as your weapons, they kock them down if you use HX, and anyone can use them. Once I get one cornered, I just grenade the hell
out of him so I can save my throws for his buddy when he charges.

I really feel like you are describing a hardcore difficulty game, a level 50+ insanity game, or you are simply light years better than I am at the game. Insanity bumps up enemy damage resistance to a ridiculous degree. So while the soldier dps is still worth something against the regulars and snipers and such, all the hardest fights revolve around ridiculous damage resistance enemies. They aren't however particularly resistance to powers. So while powers stay equally effective more or less across the board, you're dps bonus as a soldier get whittled way down.on insanity.

Anyway these posts are getting to long and I doubt out back and forth is helping the OP at this point.

Modifié par Karstedt, 21 février 2010 - 09:08 .

[Devos]

Karstedt wrote...

Umm... are we playing the same game?
Creepers have like 90% damage resistance on insanity. They practiaclly have permanet immunity built in.

They aren't damage resistant they just have a lot of health, huge difference.

I can take down a
non-immune krogan on insanity within seconds with a pistol without
marksman.

Soldiers will kill them a little faster. Since it seems the done thing is to explain how insanity works biotics don't last very long on insanity so a few seconds is a long time. That little bit quicker killing them while they are disabled is useful.

Take that level 16 soldier to a merc outpost. 40
seconds of immunity will keep you alive while you get charged by 4 or 5
equally unkillable immunity mercs in pairs. Even with adrenaline, you
aren't nearly prema immune enough to out last them. The only saving
grace there would be if you maxxed singularity, buecause youre level 16
squad won't be able to control the mercs. I've done exatly this, and
it's a nightmare. Control is much more feasible and far less risky.

I've done plenty of the base raids straight  after Therum so more like 18 on plenty of characters and I don't really have any problem with them.

Worst case, without a stimulant package or the spec bonus it's 40 seconds immunity, 10 seconds without, then the cycle starts again. For those 10 seconds or less in 50 they are *shock horror* as vulnerable as a class without immunity. Just take cover. Control is safer? At level 16? You are talking about a character with no Spec class, no access to master lift, singularity (unless bonus), early game amps/omni-tools. That's safer than master immunity at least 80% of time? Pre-20 it's doable on every class, but base raids at level 16 will be much harder than say 30, you won't get away with Ramboing like a Shock Trooper, but yet again soldiers aren't particularly badly off. As I keep writing I find they are the fastest boot strapping class.

Yes other classes are better off. Firstly,
any class can take bonus singularity or lift which will make that fight
easier.

Adepts can't, Infiltrators really shouldn't, Engineers it's left field. Vanguard, Soldier, Sentinel It's by far the best choice. You can't consider a class and ignore the bonus talent.

I really feel like you are describing a hardcore difficulty game, a level 50+ insanity game, or you are simply light years better than I am at the game. Insanity bumps up enemy damage resistance to a ridiculous degree. So while the soldier dps is still worth something against the regulars and snipers and such, all the hardest fights revolve around ridiculous damage resistance enemies. They aren't however particularly resistance to powers. So while powers stay equally effective more or less across the board, you're dps bonus as a soldier get whittled way down.on insanity.

*sigh* I've beaten the game on insanity with every class at least once and near every spec on fresh characters. I know how Insanity works. If you don't think SRs work on them, try it, it's not hard. But please don't lecture me on why it won't work when I've done it a half dozen times at least.

Also what are you talking about? Enemies get a huge resistance boost to powers. Just compare how long they stick on Insanity to lower difficulties. More resistance to damage makes DPS less important? It makes it more important. Resistance may reduce your damage but you have more of it to start with, because of how DR actually works you retain the same proportional boost. As I pointed out before that means an absolute larger reduction in the amount of time it takes to kill things, add in the shorter duration of disables and that makes DPS more important. For example if you can kill something in half a second of fire who cares about a 20% bump in damage. On a pistol at best that's knocking off one bullet in their 6 per second RoF. If something takes five seconds of fire to kill you are knocking almost a second off that, a much larger improvement.

About the only argument that makes sense against damage being less important is if you are trading it against Warp, which is why I tested and concluded contrary to what a lot of people like to spout, enemies don't have that much innate DR on Insanity, just a high HP. Even if it was a high DR it's a false dichotomy, you aren't trading damage against Warp, you have squad Warp and it would be a better bonus talent.

Modifié par Devos, 22 février 2010 - 12:18 .

[Karstedt]

Perhaps the definition of the warp power is wrong. But it is 'supposed' to reduce damage protection on the target, not make the target take more damage. So when used on a high HP enemy with little damage resistance it would not make very much difference. But in practice, master warp on a Creeper takes it from 10 shotgun blasts, down to 3-4. In my book, that's because it's taking away is innate damage resistance, not making your shots do 70% more damage. That's why warping a Colossus is far less effective than warping a Creeper. Because the Colossus does have a LOT of HP, and somewhat more reasonable damage resistance. Whereas a Creeper just has LOTS of DR.



So let's say a soldier has 50% more dps than any other class (just to exagerate the point). And a creeper has 90% dr (I am thoroughly unmoved by the idea that they are simply high HP without an example that shows warp is either ineffective on them, or that the mechanics of warp are indeed that of damage boosting and not DR reducing).



So a soldier does say 450dps vs other class 300dps. That gets reduced to 45dps vs 30dps. Say an enemy has 400hp. A soldier will kill it without shields in about 10 secs vs 13 secs. You save 3 secs in this exaggerated example, which is probably a boon when you rely almost entirely on immunity for survival, especially before you can perma spam it. An extra control power, even at its weakest will buy you 2-3 seconds, and at best more than 5-6 times that. Providing a less risky and or frantic alternative before you're character becomes nigh invulnerable.



Our play style are obviously opposites here. But I'm trying not to confuse play style with mechanics. For the majority of people that cannot charge through a room of 5 immune mercs with a level 18 soldier without regularly needing 4 or more attempts to pull it off. The game mechanics themself favor powers and control over dps and fps skill on insanity.



As for bonus talents

Adepts can't, Infiltrators really shouldn't, Engineers it's left field. Vanguard, Soldier, Sentinel It's by far the best choice. You can't consider a class and ignore the bonus talent.

That silly. by that standard, Vangard is the only class that 'should' take singularity. If a soldier were biotic, he'd be a Vangard. A soldier 'should' only take a tech skill, because that can be learned. But regardless, basing a pro-argument on bonus skills is moot because any class can take them (with a few exceptions of course). But with respect to singularity in particular, an Adept can get a reasonable Lift fairly soon, and at low level it's nearly as effective because you don't often run into a large number of opponents until later. Unless you go merc hunting.



But to sum it up. I believe you are much more skiled than me from a run-n-gun fps perspective. And I believe that aside from your instance that Creepers don't have lots of DR, your general understanding of the mechanics are on par with my own and therefore your ability to play a control style team that give up 3 seconds of kill time for 10 seconds of control should be equal to my own. Meaning that your success as a low level soldier on insanity is due to pure manual skill and not a greater understanding of the mechanics. Anyone can learn the mechanics and take what advantage there is to be had by sacrificing what amounts to an insignificant damage bonus and immunity that needs careful monitoring while you're running about for the security of enemies that can't shoot back. Not everyone can do the run-n-gun thing. Whereas I'm pretty sure that anyone who learns the mechanics and use of the pause interface can successfully do what I describe. Which in my book, makes it easier.

About the only argument that makes sense against damage being less important is if you are trading it against Warp, which is why I tested and concluded contrary to what a lot of people like to spout, enemies don't have that much innate DR on Insanity, just a high HP. Even if it was a high DR it's a false dichotomy, you aren't trading damage against Warp, you have squad Warp and it would be a better bonus talent.

This doesn't make sense. You start by saying warp over damage makes sense. Then say warp is not that useful on insanity. Then say, that even if enemies did have high DR, which they don't, it wouldn't matter because you have warp.



Obviously, I think all the toughest fights are against enemies with high DR or immunity (which provides DR) that charge you in groups (or indicidually if powerfull enough) giving you little way to kill them fast enough to prevent being shotguned/puked on/trampled to death. So we are at an impasse there. But the rest of that paragraph needs revising. I don't think it says what you meant it to say.



And really... master warp a group of creepers on insanity and tell me they jus have high hp. Then send me the vid showing how bugged your game is. You are the first person to vehemently argue this. I too have played every class on insanity. And you're just wrong about this one. Unless of course warp does actually provide a 500% damage boost, but since it's not very useful against Thresher Maws, I don't think that's the case.



You're point that 'most' enemies don't have high DR is well taken. Most fights are very easy even on insanity. It's just that the very tough ones are almost universally because of high DR enemies vs low level you before you become more or less indestructible (cause let's face it, Maws and Colossi, the big high hp targets that we can agree on, aren't tough to beat, just tough to kill).



Oh, and that 10 second window without immunity of a level 18 soldier, built with that goal in mind, is more than enough to get you stomped. 3 shogun blasts will do you in at that level, which takes a pair of charging mercs all of 2 seconds to do. That's even assuming you have perfect timing and awareness of when your immunity drops. I have done the wanna be immune low level soldier on insanity, and it relies on your fps skills, not optimal usage of game mechanics. The former requisite being why It takes me several tries to pull off the hard missions.



And who the hell rated this thread 5 stars?

[Devos]

Karstedt wrote...

Perhaps the definition of the warp power is wrong. But it is 'supposed' to reduce damage protection on the target, not make the target take more damage. So when used on a high HP enemy with little damage resistance it would not make very much difference. But in practice, master warp on a Creeper takes it from 10 shotgun blasts, down to 3-4. In my book, that's because it's taking away is innate damage resistance, not making your shots do 70% more damage. That's why warping a Colossus is far less effective than warping a Creeper. Because the Colossus does have a LOT of HP, and somewhat more reasonable damage resistance. Whereas a Creeper just has LOTS of DR.

Please stop trying to explain how the game works. Please stop making assumptions about my play style to try to support your arguments.  Being condescending doesn't actually help your credibility.

I actually tested creepers when I was checking out innate DRs so lets run through it. Without master warp aprox 38 pistol shots, with 26 shots. I'm more worried about under estimating their DR so Without Warp I would count shots which I wasn't sure hit and not count shots I was uncertain about when it was in effect. Squad inteference is impossible to entirely rule out but I outfitted them with Kessler I and made them stand out line of sight to minimise the impact. Ran it multiple times and those were the averages. You can work that backwards to estimate their DR which is about 38%. Not 90%, not 95%, 38% and I went out my way that any bias would make it an over-estimate. Master Warp speeds up the killing a bit under 50%. (again an over estimate) Those numbers were from a HWMP VII but on a Sentinel, any other class can do more damage per shot. Even so taking those numbers at face value that's about 6 seconds of pistol fire without warp versus about 4 with. A Soldier Commando, plugging all the numbers into the damage formula comes out about 20% up on say an adept or engineer with a pistol. That 20% knocks a second off. Now take into account the casting time of Warp (about 0.8 seconds for biotics I think, for some reason I never wrote it down, just assumed I would remember) that it's likely to glitch to single target and will only stick long enough to kill 2 in practice best case scenario that 5 seconds a kill for the soldier isn't so bad compared 4 plus Warp. But I don't get why you are making such a big deal about creepers any way. Use Warp from the squad if it matters then it doesn't dent your DPS which is an option open to soldiers who still benefit from their damage bump. Or gas grenade them.

That silly. by that standard, Vangard is the only class that 'should' take singularity. If a soldier were biotic, he'd be a Vangard. A soldier 'should' only take a tech skill, because that can be learned.

You are completely missing the point. An Infiltrator could take singularity but it would be bloody stupid. They lack the amp to reduce the cool down or AB to bypass it but gain a massive synergy bonus out of taking Hacking (even Neural Shock is a better option). Engineers benefit a lot from barrier so taking singularity as a defensive measure, again lacking the amp or AB is "left field", while barrier can still be permanent for them. The reality is you have a bonus talent and it's not unreasonable to factor that in when considering the peak performance of a class.

This doesn't make sense. You start by saying warp over damage makes sense. Then say warp is not that useful on insanity. Then say, that even if enemies did have high DR, which they don't, it wouldn't matter because you have warp.

No it makes perfect sense. An argument that soldier DPS is rendered moot by Warp has enough merit to deserve consideration but is still wrong since Warp isn't that important and it's still a bad argument because it's a false dichotomy. It's not either damage bonuses or Warp, if you really need Warp you can have both so the damage boost is still useful.

To be clear I'm not arguing that Soldiers are the best class in the game, just pointing out your assertions about them being particularly badly hit by the gameplay change on insanity are just plain wrong. I really don't get why you are hanging onto some false DPS versus access to powers dichotomy, especially when I wrote right from the start that while you were wrong about their damage bonuses being less useful on insanity, it wasn't the big selling point of the class. Or why you are changing the topic to low level play and it really just sounds like you are playing the low level soldier badly. It doesn't take some great feat of skill, it just takes realising you can't Rambo all the time yet and using a bonus talent. Immunity is still a great power and it doesn't change their mid game (post Rogue VI anyway) onwards damage advantage (and early game damage is whole different issue with it's own quirks I really don't want to get into). You've gone from the Assassin's (which really aren't any more pathological for soldiers than any class) to basing your arguments on base raids at level 16. Why would anyone do that? And yet again it's pathological because you are doing content at a low level, not specifically because it's on a soldier.

But I'm going to leave it there and have the good grace not to take a passing shot while I'm at it.

[Karstedt]

Just to make sure I'm not crazy, I loaded up Feros. It takes roughly 6.1 (they have just a sliver left after 6) shots from my spectre X shotgun to kill a Creeper if they are meticulously placed for maximum damage. With master warp it takes 2.1 shots. If they don't have high DR, why are they 3 times easier to kill when warped. Clearly, our numbers are waaaay different. I don't know why. But if you got my results, would you not attribute that to high DR?

To make sure it's not a pistol vs shotgun thing. I tried the spectre x
pistol too. It took roughly 58 shots to put one down pre warp. And 18
shots after warp. Pretty close to my shotgun numbers for percentage. As I
said, you are the only person I have talked to that experiences the
numbers you report. I'm using the PC ver 1.02, but have ahd the same
experience with ver 1.01.

If you were to assume that my numbers are correct. You can use a static damage number for easy calculation, say 10 per pistol shot. so it takes 180 damage to kill a Creeper with 75%  of its DR removed from warp. And it takes 580 damage to kill one with 100% of its DR. So 75% of its DR is blocking 400 damage. So:

0.75 x DR x 580 = 400
DR = .91 or 91%
If your numbers are correct then:
0.75 x DR x 380 = 120
DR = .42 or 42%

My version of the game clearly has a higher difficulty level than yours. So I can see how you would dissagree with my de-valuing of DPS.

Or better evidance still. Straight from the equipment table 2da. In the table, DR values are opposite, so lower is better. Zombie armor ranges from .43 to .16 DR (giving it the best standalone DR value of anything in the game except the superarmor at .01) depending on the level of armor it has 1-10, in turn dependant on the level it is. So a level 1 Creeper on normal difficulty would have .43 DR. Of course, your own damage output is so low at that level that as far as time required its more or less on par with a type X shotty vs a Creeper with the .16 DR. And if I'm reading the the scaling table correctly, minions are 3 times tougher on insanity. So the way armor works, that would bump the DR range to .14 to.053 on insanity.

Also, Creepers don't have that many HP. Since the creeper 2da doesn't specify HP, it almost certainly defaults to the minion 2da which specifies between 10 and 305 HP (actually it goes up to 380, but that's at level 75). Adjusted for difficulty, that would be 30-915 HP. Whereas the Colossus has between 425 and 3375, a clear HP sink, putting it over 9k hp at hgh level insanity.

And since I'm digging around... the next highest DR baddies in order are Colossus@.265, HeavyTurret@.315, and Armature & Saren@.365.. So I take back my earlier statement about warp not being effective on Colossi. It's just overshadowed by it's 9k HP.

I'm not missing the point about bonus talents. Synergy doesn't matter from a pure effectiveness position. Yes, there is no sysnergy with an Infiltrator with Singularity. Yes, an Infiltrator with Singularity is more powerful than an Infiltrator with (insert your most favoritest synergistic power here). Singularity is a godly power. Nothing compares to it, synergy or not. Mechanics wise, it can't be beat.

As for why I put emphasis on low level. It's because the OP wanted class advice for a first insanity run. The implication being, that he wants to avoid having to fight the same battle 5 times in a row to get past it. And I think we agree that after level 25 it's pretty easy no matter what unless you make some really bad leveling decisions. So the fights I specify are the ones you are likely to encounter and have difficulty with while in your weakly low level state. The does include merc bases if you don't know ahead of time what a pain they are (I went to one my first insanity playthrough and played it 12 or more times trying to pass it, then 12 more trying find a way to reliable do it).

No it makes perfect sense. An argument that soldier DPS is rendered moot
by Warp has enough merit to deserve consideration but is still wrong
since Warp isn't that important and it's still a bad argument because
it's a false dichotomy.

There, you did it again. Other than our differing numbers, this is the only thing I'm calling you crazy on. You say a wrong argument is valid. Assuming, for whatever reason, your numbers on DR are accurate, then it would be true that DPS is more valuable than Warp, rendering the argument that DPS is less valuable than Warp (or powers that will make it easier to kill immune baddies by disabling or locking them down) completely wrong. If it's wrong, it doesn't make sense, but you said it does.

My insinuation of your play style/ability is niether condescending ot irrelevant. It is exactly the same thing you did when you said, "it really just sounds like you are playing the low level soldier badly". This is a valid point to make. And my assertion is that this is skill related and not mechanic related. And that it requires more skill to pull off than going a more power intensive route. Yes, your soldier will almost certainly out kill my engineer. But if we both take the same soldier, it sounds like you can storm that merc base, and I will have to try it 4 or more times, even if you walk me through the exact way to do it. Whereas, if you take my engineer and do it exactly as I tell you, you'll likely have no problem, though it might take a bit longer than the soldier. This is the crux of a game mechanics argument.

Modifié par Karstedt, 22 février 2010 - 11:53 .

[Devos]

Your maths is wrong. I can't be bothered to pick through and spot the exact flaw but you are jumping too many steps. The basic equality you have is (1 - r)58p = (1 - w.r)18p Where p is pistol damage per shot r is the DR and w = 0.25, the amount warp multiplies resistance by. Solve for r and your pistol numbers come out about 83% DR.

It's pretty clear your around 90% is wrong if you work it backwards: With master warp on it would be reduced to about 23% so you would go from doing 10% of your damage to 77% but you aren't seeing anywhere near that almost 8 times reduction. Where as 83 fits your data exactly, not surprising since it was calculated from it.

I'm actually more inclined to believe the table and I have a fair idea why my numbers ended up squiffy and that 0.16 is pretty close to 83% but all that demonstrates is that I was wrong about how important Warp is against those things. As I keep pointing out it not an either damage or Warp so that doesn't devalue damage, just makes warp more important than it other wise would be.

Modifié par Devos, 22 février 2010 - 06:31 .

[Four.Younglings]

I know I'm playing as a vanguard, and it's pretty tough. I miss my sniper rifle.....

[Four.Younglings]

I know I'm playing as a vanguard, and it's pretty tough. I miss my sniper rifle.....

[K2QB3]

Four.Younglings wrote...

I know I'm playing as a vanguard, and it's pretty tough. I miss my sniper rifle.....

Singularity Vanguard is a pretty strong class.

I actually really enjoyed my singularity/shocktrooper soldier playthrough, back to back assasinations or singularity/carnages, immunity, tough to beat.

Hacking infiltrator is really strong too, particularly from a whole squad perspective, you can take Wrex and liara or ashley and either have tons of biotics available or an all-immune team.

[Karstedt]

Devos wrote...

It's pretty clear your around 90% is wrong if you work it backwards: With master warp on it would be reduced to about 23% so you would go from doing 10% of your damage to 77% but you aren't seeing anywhere near that almost 8 times reduction. Where as 83 fits your data exactly, not surprising since it was calculated from it.

Ok, so my guesstimation was 7% off. My point was that they have high DR, not immense HP. And high difficulty does increase DR, So it's not a flat 84%.maximum like shown in the table, however my inexact counting shots may math out.

I'm actually more inclined to believe the table and I have a fair idea why my numbers ended up squiffy and that 0.16 is pretty close to 83% but all that demonstrates is that I was wrong about how important Warp is against those things. As I keep pointing out it not an either damage or Warp so that doesn't devalue damage, just makes warp more important than it other wise would be.

But it does de-value damage. Because Warp isn't the only thing that becomes that much more valuable against the enemies that are most likely to give you trouble. Disabling a tough target is much safer and buys you more time than you would save by having that little extra DPS. Requiring less manual skill to acomplish.

If however, you can cakewalk insanity no matter what. Then sure, the DPS is actually better because it will probably save you a little time. But again, this is because of high skill, not maximizing game mechanics. Think about it this way. If you sucked and basically had to take cover and stay put in a nasty fight.because every time you tried to move about you got wasted; what will save you from 2 or more charging enemies with high DR that you can't kill quickly? Disabling some for a bit so you can concentrate on one at a time, or a slight DPS boost which will go away when your weapon overheats, which it will at low level if you are trying to gun down multiple high DR targets that are getting up close and personal, a mark IV AR just doesn't have the juice to fire that much. And while immunity is still a pwerful tool, it won't keep your squad alive so they can continue using powers as well.

[Devos]

Karstedt wrote...

Ok, so my guesstimation was 7% off. My point was that they have high DR, not immense HP. And high difficulty does increase DR, So it's not a flat 84%.maximum like shown in the table, however my inexact counting shots may math out.

It's more like 70% off in what that "7%" means in practice.

But it does de-value damage. Because Warp isn't the only thing that becomes that much more valuable against the enemies that are most likely to give you trouble. Disabling a tough target is much safer and buys you more time than you would save by having that little extra DPS. Requiring less manual skill to acomplish.

no matter how you look at it you still have to kill them and it's still not an either, or situation. You can have disables on your squad, you have a bonus talent. Dying is the lose condition and really your instance that a class with out right game breaking survivability or has a damage bonus they can stack with powers is some how worse off on insanity is frankly ridiculous. It doesn't take some great feat of skill, it's not about gameplay style beyond not playing badly. You keep coming up with ridiculous chariciture of playing a soldier which ignore you always have a squad and bonus talent. I think very few people who have played Insanity as a soldier would recognise what you are describing. For all your complaints about trying to remain independent of play style your arguments are incredibly dependent on play style most people won't recognise. You keep going on about the first few hours of the game and how powers are more useful but keep ignoring that they have a long cool down and stick for a very short time. So no, soldiers can't maintain perma immunity at 16, but absolute best case scenario you have about 30 second cool down on most powers on any class and a decent point invest in three powers and only in one second tier one (eg, lift, singularity) and then not even at master. Those 40 second of immunity and then 10 seconds without is a pretty good deal considering that is with master bonus tallent backed with AB and passable gun skill on top.

I'm done with this argument, you just keep repeating the same assertions over and over and try and hand wave anything to contrary off as down to "play style".

[TheDFO]

Not to break up the love-in between Devos and Karstedt, I went with the Infiltrator. Thus far I've been having a few issues, but not too many. I don't have a huge amount of CQC capability, because Wrex isn't leveled to shotgun/armor yet, and Kaiden hasn't gotten his cooldowns high enough to use his lift/throw too often.



My sniper level is also still low, so I also don't have too much long range. Oh man, I am NOT looking forward to the geth husks or the creepers.



Oh, on that point, what's a good way for an infilitrator (long range combat, vs tech and biotics) to deal with the creepers? My hope is to have lift and throw leveled with kaiden, and work on Wrex's shotgun and tanking, as well as maybe hsi biotics.

[Karstedt]

Devos wrote...
It's more like 70% off in what that "7%" means in practice.

How is my estimate of 90% DR, 70% off of the actual base of 84% DR? You do realize, that 0.16 as listed in the table is actually 84% DR, because it's multiplying the damage by 0.16. And this is even assuming there is no adjustment to DR for insanity.

no matter how you look at it you still have to kill them and it's still not an either, or situation. You can have disables on your squad, you have a bonus talent.

I keep ignoring this argument because it implies that you think there is no trade off between choosing a soldier and another class. You get more disables with other classes, period. Wrex + Tali + Adept/Vangard/Engineer/Infiltrator/Sentinel has more disables than Wrex + Tali + Soldier, or any other cobination of team mates.

Dying is the lose condition and really your instance that a class with out right game breaking survivability or has a damage bonus they can stack with powers is some how worse off on insanity is frankly ridiculous.

Firstly, game breaking survivability doesn't kick in until around the low 20's. And that's because I don't include having a mere 10 seconds of vulnerability game breaking. You can easily take 3 shotgun blasts and killed in that 10 seconds. Second, if you do go all out survivability, you won't be getting that DPS until much later.

It doesn't take some great feat of skill, it's not about gameplay style beyond not playing badly.

Then why do people post about having difficulty on insanity? Since no skill is required, there should be no posts abuot having trouble with any of the fights. But there are.

You keep coming up with ridiculous chariciture of playing a soldier which ignore you always have a squad and bonus talent.

By that line of thinking, it's rediculous to charicturize any class because we always have a squad and bonustalent. I mean, why even have classes at all? We always have a squad with us. If it is ridiculous (which I don't think it is), then you are just as guilty as me.

I think very few people who have played Insanity as a soldier would recognise what you are describing.

Help me out people. Tell me I'm crazy or back me up. In the year plus I spent on the old ME forum, the people that discussed the difficulty and easiest way to overcome the hardest challenges (IE low level insanity characters) had overwhelimingly similar experiences to my own.

For all your complaints about trying to remain independent of play style your arguments are incredibly dependent on play style most people won't recognise.

I'm not trying to remain independant of play style, I'm trying to emphasize that the required paystyle to be easily successul with a low level insanity soldier take much more skill than the playstyle required to be easily successful with a low level other class on insanity. I'm trying to remove skill from the equation to provide the most easily executed plan for success.

You keep going on about the first few hours of the game and how powers are more useful but keep ignoring that they have a long cool down and stick for a very short time. So no, soldiers can't maintain perma immunity at 16, but absolute best case scenario you have about 30 second cool down on most powers on any class.

I'm not ignoring it. I said repeadly that the purpose of the powers is to stop them from being a threat and making the tough enemies easier (not always faster) to kill that they would be with a DPS boost. It dosn't have to last that long if you have enough of them, nor does it need tremendous cool down because the enemey doesn't have tremendous cooldown either. More importantly, using powers to get the jomp on the enemy will often completely nuetralize their ability to be a threat in the first place leaving them extremely vulnerable and easy to kill regardless of your DPS, survivability power, or skill (negating the need and greatly reducing the benefit of that extra damage and immunity). I used the example of the Therum Warlord earlier. If everyone on your team has several powers, including yourself. You can lock down the entire room and lift the krogan right at the otset for a quick 5 second kill and them mop up the geth in another 5-10 seconds. If you don't have enough sabotage and a minumum of 2 powers that will keep the krogan defenseless long enough to prevent him from going immune, you have to take cover from the geth and deal with the krogan later. Meaning an unlucky sniper or rocket shot can take you out. Those damn gases could make you a sitting duck. You might not perfectly execute the anti krogan dance when he finally charges and he will hit you twice and your dead. That is a difficult manuver. My way is easy, and unless you have palsy and start clicking your powers in the wrong places, you'll be fine.

I'm done with this argument, you just keep repeating the same assertions over and over and try and hand wave anything to contrary off as down to "play style"

That's crazy talk. I've taken the time to make specific arguments against your points. And I'm basing my entire argument on a base of bad play to eliminate skill as a factor. And some play styles require more skill than others. That's the whole point. When I say I'm trying to remove skill and playstyle from the equation, it means I'm trying to level the playing feild by assuming a very low baseline. It's like taking a baseball team of people that are all equally poor in every way; which one will be be the best at his position? You're saying it's an outfielder because they are all more or less equal and it does't matter. I'm saying it's the the DH because there's less required of him and the consequences of failure aren't as steep. I'm not saying the DH is a better player, I'm saying it's an easier position. I'm painting a scenario in which a person that rarely makes it from the spawn point in Counter Strike can readily deal with the worst threats. I'm not trying to provide the hardened veterans guide to the most efficient killing machine for experts who are good and don't play badly.

[Karstedt]

TheDFO wrote...

Not to break up the love-in between Devos and Karstedt, I went with the Infiltrator. Thus far I've been having a few issues, but not too many. I don't have a huge amount of CQC capability, because Wrex isn't leveled to shotgun/armor yet, and Kaiden hasn't gotten his cooldowns high enough to use his lift/throw too often.

My sniper level is also still low, so I also don't have too much long range. Oh man, I am NOT looking forward to the geth husks or the creepers.

Oh, on that point, what's a good way for an infilitrator (long range combat, vs tech and biotics) to deal with the creepers? My hope is to have lift and throw leveled with kaiden, and work on Wrex's shotgun and tanking, as well as maybe hsi biotics.

Traitor! You went the middle path you bastard! You're supposed to take sides. Now you can get immunity, commando for dps, and extra powers. Lame!

You really can't deal with Creepers at long range except in a few places. If you want to cheese though, there are a bunch of spots where you can take out a thorian node from many rooms away with your sniper rifle (which will auto kill a bunch of Creepers when it explodes). It's slow but the Creepers will only come after you 2-3 at a time that way. You could probably even just shoot the node until a couple wake up, the keep one pinned in his room with hammerhead sniper rounds and let your squad handle the other one. You could load up some sledghammer rounds in your sniper rifle and use it like a shotgun, zooming in for a sec just to take shots. Not quite as effective as a shotty though. Use overload on them too. Even though they don't have shields, there is a small debuff attached that will lower their DR. It's not warp, but it's something. And just make sure you keep the Creepers down. Don't overheat your weapon on a down creeper when there is another one coming right for you unless you are good at the melee dance. And if we're talking Feros, try to make sure you have a decent lift or push to nail the asari before she gets buffed up. Dampening is great too, especially when you can hit her before she even gets barrier up. If she hts you with a knockdown, you'll probably die unless you get lucky.

If you are good at keeping Kaiden out of the way, give him a stim pak to boost those cooldowns.

And please, tell me your impression of Creeper DR. If you feel they are very resistant, try to position yourself to knock them off ledges when possible. You can often throw 2 at a time over the ledge with a good throw, or shotgun herd them to the edge too for insta kills. I can often knock them off the edge with half as many shots as it would take to kill them. They will get knocked further back if you wait until they are on their feet or in the air too.

Modifié par Karstedt, 23 février 2010 - 05:23 .

[TheDFO]

Karstedt wrote...

TheDFO wrote...

Not to break up the love-in between Devos and Karstedt, I went with the Infiltrator. Thus far I've been having a few issues, but not too many. I don't have a huge amount of CQC capability, because Wrex isn't leveled to shotgun/armor yet, and Kaiden hasn't gotten his cooldowns high enough to use his lift/throw too often.

My sniper level is also still low, so I also don't have too much long range. Oh man, I am NOT looking forward to the geth husks or the creepers.

Oh, on that point, what's a good way for an infilitrator (long range combat, vs tech and biotics) to deal with the creepers? My hope is to have lift and throw leveled with kaiden, and work on Wrex's shotgun and tanking, as well as maybe hsi biotics.

Traitor! You went the middle path you bastard! You're supposed to take sides. Now you can get immunity, commando for dps, and extra powers. Lame!

You really can't deal with Creepers at long range except in a few places. If you want to cheese though, there are a bunch of spots where you can take out a thorian node from many rooms away with your sniper rifle (which will auto kill a bunch of Creepers when it explodes). It's slow but the Creepers will only come after you 2-3 at a time that way. You could probably even just shoot the node until a couple wake up, the keep one pinned in his room with hammerhead sniper rounds and let your squad handle the other one. You could load up some sledghammer rounds in your sniper rifle and use it like a shotgun, zooming in for a sec just to take shots. Not quite as effective as a shotty though. Use overload on them too. Even though they don't have shields, there is a small debuff attached that will lower their DR. It's not warp, but it's something. And just make sure you keep the Creepers down. Don't overheat your weapon on a down creeper when there is another one coming right for you unless you are good at the melee dance. And if we're talking Feros, try to make sure you have a decent lift or push to nail the asari before she gets buffed up. Dampening is great too, especially when you can hit her before she even gets barrier up. If she hts you with a knockdown, you'll probably die unless you get lucky.

If you are good at keeping Kaiden out of the way, give him a stim pak to boost those cooldowns.

And please, tell me your impression of Creeper DR. If you feel they are very resistant, try to position yourself to knock them off ledges when possible. You can often throw 2 at a time over the ledge with a good throw, or shotgun herd them to the edge too for insta kills. I can often knock them off the edge with half as many shots as it would take to kill them. They will get knocked further back if you wait until they are on their feet or in the air too.

That's the way I like it - kick them when they're down.

And, right now, I've got to get through Therum first. Stupid Krogans.