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No happiness, no hugs, no roses, a dark ending for ME3?


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#1
Lyrandori

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Today I had a conversation with a guy at work about games in general (and about ME2 of course, since he bought it too) and he made me think about how rare it is in video gaming history, as well as in general entertainment history (primarily movies and novels) when - and quoting him - «the bad guys win». We then talked about a few examples we had in mind and we realized that most of them that did have bad endings were mid-titles of trilogies or longer series, and not the actual real "ultimate" end of the concerned trilogy or series., that for instance "part 2" of a trilogy could end up ending "badly" (badly for the good guys in the story basically, not necessarily for the public watching or reading the story) but that ultimately "part 3" (last one, let's say in a trilogy) always end up being bad for the bad guys and the good guys win, and that so as some sort of a standard pretty much any stories out there are almost obliged to end with happy celebrations and that at worst "the fallen" (mostly during the "dark part 2") will always be remembered, and despite all of that life resumes, things go on and... yeah... we're used to those types of happy endings by now.

Just as an example, BioWare compares ME2 to Empire Strikes Back (if you want direct proof of that then look for the bonus content videos, you'll often hear some of the devs say that out loud), and we know that ESB is the "darkest" of the old Star Wars trilogy, and that despite Luke being saved at the last moment from death with one of his hands gone that pretty much the whole movie was "daring" and tough against the Rebels and the good guys in general, especially considering that the opening of the movie is pretty much a decisive Galactic Empire victory against the Rebel base, that despite the heroics of some Rebel pilots against the AT-ATs they (Empire) still managed to defeat all opposing forces and all that... we know the story by now... so it's indeed similar in ME2, the decisive "bad guys" victory is pretty much having managed to blow up the Normandy SR-1 and in the process getting Shepard spaced and being pretty certain that he or she is dead (and that WAS the case for some time), and the rest is dark despite whatever Shepard accomplishes since thousands of humans had been lequified successfully before Shepard was brought back to life, during his or her actions and up until the very end when despite being "there in time" you still witness at least one person being lequified (Lilith in that case).

So at one point we were wondering just how the public, the fans would react in general would ME3 end in the complete genocide of all organic life and that despite everything we have done until that point to stop it from occurring the Reapers still manage to win and that perhaps only a very small pocket of "resistance" or rather "survivors" manage to escape in some ultra-secret base like the Protheans did themselves, and that again the cycle restarts, that perhaps Shepard and some very lucky team and scientists with him/her live on for a couple of years trying to figure out what went wrong and can't do more than create some sort of long-lasting dormant warning message for whoever might end up discover it in a couple of thousands of years to... once more... "try it against the Reapers" in the far future, and instead of Vigil speaking for those futuristic species it might end up be Shepard's hologram delivering a last warning speech that he or she had recorded about 50,000 years ago during the events of the ME trilogy or more precisely at the end of ME3.

Now of course we aren't naive, we KNOW that such an end would suddenly throw the whole trilogy amongst the worst ones there ever was and that with such a depressing ending BioWare would end up being hated by lots of people who wanted to see the Reapers getting defeated in the most predictable-yet-desired manner there is, probably with some galactic-scale alliance against the Reapers, something the Protheans didn't manage to do since they were cut off from each others from the very start and most of their empire wasn't even aware that the invasion began when at the last minute their respective world's sky was darkened by the Reapers coming at them, so for the very first time in the whole genocidal cycle of the Reapers we could have an actual stand against them whilst the Citadel doesn't end up being the invasion's catalyst and so on and so forth, that in other words the allied organic forces SOMEHOW manage to defeat the Reapers in - perhaps at worst - what could be the most far-fetched way there could be... BUT... as long as the ending is happy, as long the LI can be married and banged near the end before death might be possible and as long as we can see what the heck do the Quarians look like THEN people will be happy, in general... that's what we told ourselves.

Well... I don't know, to be honest. I mean I don't know how I myself would react if the lead writer decides to... you know, take control of his (or "their", since they're two on it now) story and make the Reapers win and ultimately tell us that the events occurring in ME was «just another cycle of destruction against which no one could do anything about as much as countless others tried before», but then what would have been the freakin' point of the whole thing anyway? Is it only worth it to even bother creating such a vast and complex universe if in the end the very creator(s) of that universe wishes to see it end violently and abrubtly? Is it even worth it to create a story if at the end the guy doesn't end up kissing the girl with the crowd clapping in joy at them? Is ME "condemned" to have a happy ending? Is it "alright" to have a happy ending just because the masses would prefer it that way even if the Reapers just cannot ultimately be defeated in the lead writer(s)'s mind?

How would YOU react to a "sad" ending in ME3? I'm just curious, I'd like to read about your thoughts on this.

Modifié par Lyrandori, 20 février 2010 - 04:59 .


#2
Stephenc13

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If they made a really emotionally effecting ending (which i think is possible, because 3 games of mass effect, of course you'll get connected) it will work out for me. Happy endings are so cliche. I want an ending that punches me in the gut. :P


Edit: I also think endings would be affected by how you play. But for the genocidal ending there should be a powerful speech Shepard gives. The ME2 launch trailer kinda gave me the chills lol. "We have to give everything! Even if it means our lives! We will stop at nothing! We will fight for the lost!" (i watch the launch trailer like a zillion times a day (:

Modifié par Stephenc13, 20 février 2010 - 05:07 .


#3
Jimbe2693

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I wouldn't mind if the reapers win.

I think they'll have multiple ending anway. Your decisions through all the games should affect it.

#4
Malificis

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An ending where the Reapers win, or at least the "good guys" dont win would be great.

I find it depressing to always see the "good guys" win in films and other entertainment-business media because it is simply so unrealistic as to draw attention to how unrealistic it is.

A smart, capable and well resourced villain will ALWAYS beat a smart, capable and well resourced hero because the villain has no restraints and no limiters.

#5
InvaderErl

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Malificis wrote...

An ending where the Reapers win, or at least the "good guys" dont win would be great.
I find it depressing to always see the "good guys" win in films and other entertainment-business media because it is simply so unrealistic as to draw attention to how unrealistic it is.
A smart, capable and well resourced villain will ALWAYS beat a smart, capable and well resourced hero because the villain has no restraints and no limiters.


May I recommend Oldboy?

#6
Ajspeed

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Defiantley a possiblity it will be like KOTOR supposively non-Canon ending where your all sith

#7
MatronAdena

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reapers win = no more books or spin off's so no....



reapers loose, but at a cost is different, that could be nice depending on how well it's done.

#8
-D7-

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I think one sad or several sad ending are going to be possible ME3. I am curious as to the effect of the choices you made in ME1 and ME2 affect your chances of a good or sad ending.

#9
Mighty_BOB_cnc

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I would be sad. :(



Also I would hate BioWare. This is the first game series I've picked up from them so I would hate for it to end on a sour note. Also Liara is not allowed to die. :(

#10
DarkNova50

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I wouldn't mind if it was one possibility.



But I also want the ability to save the galaxy and turn those metal mother ****ers into junk.

#11
InvaderErl

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Or make out with them.

#12
Wild Still

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TLDNR

#13
Onyx Jaguar

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I recall the potential ending of Jade Empire where your character gives up and the villain in that wins and how dark yet oddly interesting that ending was. They haven't really tried that since because it wasn't really implemented in a way that would make a whole lot of sense (for you to choose that option anyway). It would be an interesting twist if at the end of ME 3 that they would give you that option, but that also might compromise the cinematic nature of the endings that have been prevalent so far.

#14
Hepzi3

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Shepard warning against the Reapers would make me cry. To see our Hero beaten like that.....



But I want it too. I want to completely screw up and make it so I have to tell the next generation of Organics how to beat them.



But in that case, I want to see the next Organics actually beating them, So it was all worth something in the end.



With games/movies/books, established Franchises or whatever have you, with the end of them, lots of people WANT the Developer/Director/Author to bring his people to the Promised land but not live to see it him/herself.



That would be a pretty decent way to end Mass Effect.

#15
no00dylan

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InvaderErl wrote...

Or make out with them.


"I support reapers as a LI in Mass Effect 3"

#16
OfTheFaintSmile

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I think it would be AWESOME if the reapers won and extinguished all life in an orbital bombardment cutscene at the end, not THATS an epic ending!



on a sidenote: I really want to see who created the reapers...and the races which defied the reapers (like the 37 million year old reaper who got blown out of the sky by some retreating race with a mass effect weapon)

#17
Collider

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Depends on how it is done. What could constitute as sad and is very vague.



An ending in which



a) The reapers wipe out virtually all of sentient life

B) The organic races that were wiped out leave no legacy through which the next cycle of races could use against the reapers



is a very anticlimactic and unattractive ending.



However, consider another ending.

a) The reapers wipe out virtually all of sentient life

B) However, research and information remains which gives hope for the next cycle to finally beat the reapers once and for all

Is not as bad.



However, we've all been led on to think that the reapers will be eventually defeated, this is the typical ending of most RPGs. The antagonists are defeated or wounded in a lasting way.

#18
Hepzi3

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Just thinking about Shepard having to tell the next organics how to beat the Reapers makes me choke up.



I cant imagine what it was like for Virgil, and he was an AI.....

#19
Stephenc13

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Hepzi3 wrote...

Just thinking about Shepard having to tell the next organics how to beat the Reapers makes me choke up.

I cant imagine what it was like for Virgil, and he was an AI.....


Im gonna type up the ending where shepard leaves the message to defeat the reapers! lol

#20
Headcount

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ME3 should and must have multiple endings (Good, Bad and Yikes!) and be determined by the player through his choices and actions over the course of the three games. Betraying everyone and suddenly siding with the Reapers should be an option to the player if given an attractive offer by the bad guys.



I remember playing one PC game years ago called Tex Murphy: The Pandora Directive and I loved that game, not only it was an great RPG but it had something like seven possible endings. All ranging from dying at the end to saving the world and getting the girl. The in between ending was that I saved the world but cheated on my girlfriend and became so guilt-ridden that my character left and became a clown entertaining kids. Yes, a clown. The game had a silly off beat humor to it.

#21
GuardianAngel470

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I think the renegade ending and maybe the neutral ending should end with the reapers winning easily/at great cost respectively. But if you played paragon or at least paragon in all the right places then having the reapers win would just be insulting. I mean, you spend all this time and effort making sure the Rachni survive and the krogan, geth, and quarians are on your side only to have it blow up in your face. That would be like an insult to the time and effort they have sunk into the game, not to mention the money. If you could play the whole game making every choice you needed to to give yourself the best possible chance only to fail, that would be pretty agravating. Now, if you played renegade then you probably wouldn't care because all along you had signs that you could fail, it wouldn't be a surprise and it wouldn't be out of place.



Just my opinion though, no need to go spreading it around.

#22
themadhackermatt

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I agree on the concept of good and bad endings depending on your choices, however even if shep. dies the devlopers could then open the game to an MMORPG status, at least for the positive ending, they could however have paralell servers where you form an organic resistance to the reapers for the bad game, Just like in WOW, You have numerous servers that vary depending on your ME3 ending.

#23
DuffyMJ

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The problem with this idea is that you have this expectation for stories to be naturalistic like real life, but they're not. It is very hard to make a story where the bad guys win because that usually implies that nothing has happened, and the only dynamic in the story was the plot. Emo kids in creative writing classes think it's chic to write stories where the main character dies, because "death" is the only "edge-y" character dynamic that they can think of when in fact it's a boring and overused shtick.



Something has to happen in a good story. One of the greatest stories of the 20th Century where there isn't a "happy ending", in my view, is the play All My Sons. Long story short we find that dad basically killed his own son because he knowingly profited off of faulty war materials he was producing (with the excuse that he was doing it for the financial good of his family). As you can see, though, this is not a clear "evil" wins. It's a negative outcome, but dynamic and tragic, and if you read the play you'll see how the characters are dynamic and shaken to their core by the end of the play (and the audience is as well). If the Reapers, in their current form, "win", it would do absolutely nothing for me and I'm pretty sure only a nihilist or some kind of self-hating extremist like that albino dude in the DaVinci code would get any kind of edification from such a story.

#24
silentstephi

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I wouldn't mind it being one of the possibilities, like someone else mentioned. But I'm sorry, I don't read/engage in a story for a sad or crappy ending.



It's that whole part of being entertained. Now, twist it a bit, and make it so that maybe sure, the good guys might have won the day, but at the cost of their soul/morals what have you (Law Abiding Citizen much?) and that's a great story. But I'm also tired of the endings where sure, you can save the day BUT ONLY IF YOU SACRIFICE YOURSELF FOR THE GREATER GOOD. Just... stop. Because that's old. It's one of the reasons why DAO threw me for one hell of a loop. I was expecting the whole, Oh look at how much you've invested in this character and the LI of course one of you is going to have to di-... er... what? Demon baby SURE I'LL TAKE IT!



But yea. Again, I wouldn't mind a "bad guys win" ending as one of the possibilities. But for the most part, as much of an ass my Shep is, she's a good guy. Get out of her way, she's got a galaxy to save.

#25
Nallski

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It would sort of undermine the rest of the plot up to the ending if the reapers just won. I mean why bother making us do everything else if the reapers still win, having us leave behind Vigil 2.0 would just be a cop out imo. I would really like to see it possible though. In ME2 you can finish with only 2 squad mates alive, but its not easy. Making it difficult, but doable could be a fun way to experience a darker "non-canon" ending. I think its more likely though that a Renegade ending would just be a bittersweet victory. Where the consequences of your choices leave the galaxy in a very very bad place, making you wonder if it was really worth winning knowing what kind of hell you've subjected the galaxy to. Bioware already said that the ME universe won't end with this trilogy, just Shep's story arc, so we know the reapers won't wipe out all sentient life unless everything from here is a prequel.