140 réponses à ce sujet

[AntiChri5]

Chaotic stupid.

[AmstradHero]

Internet Kraken wrote...
Renegade Shepard is just a jerk. It's not like he kills innocent civilians for jollies.

Except for where he kills an entire colony on Zhu's Hope. Or executes the Asari that gave him the cipher, or the asari in Saren's Krogan base.

Or for ME2, how about where he sentences a city to death in order to save its spaceport? Or gunning down Batarians who've surrendered? Or Krogan bodyguards.  Renegade Shepard isn't a nice guy. He'll do anything in order to take down the Collectors/Reapers.  If that means killing a justicar who will almost certainly turn on him later in exchange for the loyalty of a psychopathic killing machine, then he'll do it.

[Biotic_Warlock]

Plus renegade shephard commits Genocide... Killing rachni queen...

[Jalem001]

The incredibly powerful and Asari Justicar sworn to obey your command, or slightly less powerful genetically mutated Asari who has a history of manipulating people to get what she pleases.



There's just no reason to keep Morinth. Even if you're a renegade Shep you have to look at Samara as less of a gamble. She's upfront with what she'll do to you, and you don't do anything worth her killing you (She'd do the same thing on her missions). Morinth, on the other hand, is likely to slip something in your drink and rape you. No thanks.

[MutantSpleen]

Shes not so bad just don't sleep with her. Also, I am just curious to see if she carries over into ME3 and how so.



She isn't going to kill you as long as the possibility of that tasty super sex with Shepard exists. Even if you tell her "No" she has hope you will change your mind. Other than that she is pretty laid back and she got through the suicide mission without any issues, I had her do the barrier.



For me the decision was just how cold her mother was to her. To go on a 400 year crusade to kill your own daughter just isn't right, even if they are a murderer. The way she called her a disease to be purged nothing more, it was said with such venom. My Shepard is pretty ruthless but that seemed cold even to her. I just decided you know I don't need this fanatic on my team. Morinth can at least be reasoned with. Just like Cerberus, I will give her a chance, one chance.

[BHRamsay]

It's good that Morinth's fanclub don't have to face Nef's mom after taking her Killer into your confidence. The e-mail i get from her after the mission is one of the highlights of the day.

[Biotic_Warlock]

Does mordin have anything to say about Morinth's condition? or even chakwas? or Joker?

[aaniadyen]

To give lonely teenagers an excuse to have a female sexual predator taking orders from them.

[medlish]

The question is why we can't take Mordin's apprentice or Jacob's father with us.

[MaaZeus]

The Angry One wrote...

LoweGear wrote...

Staylost wrote...

She couldn't even kill "1 bullet from an ME1 pistol and I'm dead" Nihlus.

You do kow that Nihlus was killed because he didn't expect a bullet from a friend right? Samara was fighting Nihlus in a "fair" battle where both knew who the enemy was. Nihlus was killed because he trusted Saren, turned his back on him and got shot in the process.

Saren had the element of surprise to be able to off Nihlus like that, Samara didn't.

Yeah a friend WITH A GETH ARM AND WEIRD CYBERNETIC IMPLANTS NOBODY SHOULD HAVE!

Errr... Cybernetics are pretty much everyday occurence ME Universe. Its possible that Saren has had them for looong time. Who knows if he lost his eyes in some unfortunate mission, and arm another. Its not a "Geth" arm.

Not only was Saren a friend, he was Nihlus's mentor sort off. The one who took him to Spectres. There was no reason why he wouldnt trust him.

Modifié par MaaZeus, 20 février 2010 - 12:29 .

[AntiChri5]

MutantSpleen wrote...

Shes not so bad just don't sleep with her. Also, I am just curious to see if she carries over into ME3 and how so.

She isn't going to kill you as long as the possibility of that tasty super sex with Shepard exists. Even if you tell her "No" she has hope you will change your mind. Other than that she is pretty laid back and she got through the suicide mission without any issues, I had her do the barrier.

For me the decision was just how cold her mother was to her. To go on a 400 year crusade to kill your own daughter just isn't right, even if they are a murderer. The way she called her a disease to be purged nothing more, it was said with such venom. My Shepard is pretty ruthless but that seemed cold even to her. I just decided you know I don't need this fanatic on my team. Morinth can at least be reasoned with. Just like Cerberus, I will give her a chance, one chance.

Samara actually loves Morinth as much as she hates her. She just knows that Morinth has to die. If you help Sammy kill Morinth she will tell you how she always respected and admired Morinth.

Samara wants her dead because she feels responsible for the by now thousands of lives Morinth has destroyed.

[AntiChri5]

Biotic_Warlock wrote...

Does mordin have anything to say about Morinth's condition? or even chakwas? or Joker?

Everyone thinks she is Samara.

[AntiChri5]

MaaZeus wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

LoweGear wrote...

Staylost wrote...

She couldn't even kill "1 bullet from an ME1 pistol and I'm dead" Nihlus.

You do kow that Nihlus was killed because he didn't expect a bullet from a friend right? Samara was fighting Nihlus in a "fair" battle where both knew who the enemy was. Nihlus was killed because he trusted Saren, turned his back on him and got shot in the process.

Saren had the element of surprise to be able to off Nihlus like that, Samara didn't.

Yeah a friend WITH A GETH ARM AND WEIRD CYBERNETIC IMPLANTS NOBODY SHOULD HAVE!

Errr... Cybernetics are pretty much everyday occurence ME Universe. Its possible that Saren has had them for looong time. Who knows if he lost his eyes in some unfortunate mission, and arm another. Its not a "Geth" arm.

Not only was Saren a friend, he was Nihlus's mentor sort off. The one who took him to Spectres. There was no reason why he wouldnt trust him.

It IS a Geth arm. The devs just never got around to giving him a normal one that got replaced after Virmire

[PiercedMonk]

Biotic_Warlock wrote...

Plus renegade shephard commits Genocide... Killing rachni queen...

Killing one creature isn't genocide, even if it is the last of it's kind. Genocide implies a much more deliberate and systemic approach. Which isn't to say that murder is okay, but the idea that killing the rachni queen is genocide makes me roll my eyes.

And there's probably renegades Shepards that didn't kill the rachni queen. I garuntee you there's paragon Shepards that did.

As for Morinth, I didn't think she was much worse than Samara. Samara murdered an entire colony because they got in her way, and would have murdered a dully appointed officer of the law for much the same reason. At least Morinth does what she does because she's driven by an addiction. Samara's just a sociopath who believes her code somehow grants her moral ahourity over everyone she encounters, despite it having provisions allowing her to subvert herself to someone she might otherwise kill without a second thought.

At the end of the day, both mother and daughter are ridiculous, over-the-top, fanwank nonsense.

Modifié par PiercedMonk, 20 février 2010 - 12:47 .

[AntiChri5]

PiercedMonk wrote...

Biotic_Warlock wrote...

Plus renegade shephard commits Genocide... Killing rachni queen...

Killing one creature isn't genocide, even if it is the last of it's kind. Genocide implies a much more deliberate and systemic approach. Which isn't to say that murder is okay, but the idea that killing the rachni queen is genocide makes me roll my eyes.

And there's probably renegades Shepards that didn't kill the rachni queen. I garuntee you there's paragon Shepards that did.

I only have one Renegade who did it and that was so i could see what is different. My first character was Paragon and when my second got up to there i was thinking "OMFG RACHNI WERE INDOCTRINATED"

So all but one of my Renegades spared her.

I am SOOOOOO glad my theroy turned out to be right!  

[Adon 9]

MutantSpleen wrote...

For me the decision was just how cold her mother was to her. To go on a 400 year crusade to kill your own daughter just isn't right, even if they are a murderer. The way she called her a disease to be purged nothing more, it was said with such venom. My Shepard is pretty ruthless but that seemed cold even to her. I just decided you know I don't need this fanatic on my team. Morinth can at least be reasoned with. Just like Cerberus, I will give her a chance, one chance.

I think the coldness is justified when you hear some of the things that Morinth has done.  Brainwashed a village to worship her and then throwing them at her mother to cover her escape.  Sucked in an innocent, lonely girl into thinking she'd found love only to kill her off for her own pleasure?  And by all indications, that last scenario is one she's done many, many times?  Morinth is an unrepentant monster, and Samara has taken it as her personal responsibility to bring an end to her.  She's hardened herself to this... has had 400 years to do so.

Frankly, everything Morinth says to get you to side with her comes off as an appeal to Shepard's ego.  "Oh, YOU must be different!  I've finally found someone who might survive!  It's not my fault, I just need some hero to rescue me from my wicked ways!"  Remember, she's been lying to people for CENTURIES to get them to lower their guard around her.

So no.  No sympathy for Morinth from moi.

[didymos1120]

PiercedMonk wrote...

Killing one creature isn't genocide, even if it is the last of it's kind. Genocide implies a much more deliberate and systemic approach. Which isn't to say that murder is okay, but the idea that killing the rachni queen is genocide makes me roll my eyes.

Well, too bad about the eye-roll thing, 'cause you're wrong.  The process of committing genocide typically involves large numbers, yes, but that's because, well, you haven't already committed it. But does it suddenly cease to be genocide when you've only got one left to go before they're all finally exterminated? Or if you wait a week, month or year or whatever before finally doing 'em in?

Going by the OED (sorry, it's subscription-only if you click through):

The deliberate and systematic extermination of an ethnic or national
group.

Not good enough? OK, here's a legal definition:

 Article 2
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

    * (a) Killing members of the group;
    * ( Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
    * © Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
    * (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
    * (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Rachni Queen-killing qualifies under either of those.  She just so happens to be the final victim, whose execution was delayed. 

Modifié par didymos1120, 20 février 2010 - 01:03 .

[PiercedMonk]

MaaZeus wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

LoweGear wrote...

Staylost wrote...

She couldn't even kill "1 bullet from an ME1 pistol and I'm dead" Nihlus.

You do kow that Nihlus was killed because he didn't expect a bullet from a friend right? Samara was fighting Nihlus in a "fair" battle where both knew who the enemy was. Nihlus was killed because he trusted Saren, turned his back on him and got shot in the process.

Saren had the element of surprise to be able to off Nihlus like that, Samara didn't.

Yeah a friend WITH A GETH ARM AND WEIRD CYBERNETIC IMPLANTS NOBODY SHOULD HAVE!

Errr... Cybernetics are pretty much everyday occurence ME Universe. Its possible that Saren has had them for looong time. Who knows if he lost his eyes in some unfortunate mission, and arm another. Its not a "Geth" arm.

Not only was Saren a friend, he was Nihlus's mentor sort off. The one who took him to Spectres. There was no reason why he wouldnt trust him.

Look again, it's a geth arm. If Ashley, a member of a species that's only been part of the larger galactic community for thirty or so years, and who's had little to no experiance with non-humans can recognise the geth, then it strikes me as odd that Nihlus and the council wouldn't be put off by the fact that Saren's graphted what is obviously a geth arm to his own body.

It's really too bad Saren's "upgrades" weren't a gradual thing as the game progressed. He could have started off looking normal except the glowy eyes when he murders Nihlus. Then when you meet him again on Virmire, he could have the additions to his frill, and lose the arm in that fight. Finally, you meet him again on the citadel, and he's got the geth arm.

As it is, I would have expected the scene to go a little something more like this.


Nihlus: Saren?

Saren: Nihlus.

Nihlus: This isn't your mission, Saren. What are you doing here?

Saren: The council thought you could use--

Nihlus: And why in the name of the Great Mother's Luminous Cloaca do you have a geth's arm? You're in league with them, barefaced bastard!

*Pew, pew, pew! Epic Spectre on Spectre firefight until Shepard and co. show up, allowing Nihlus to get the upper hand, ending Saren's wretched existance. They then secure the beacon and return to the Normandy for punch and pie*

Modifié par PiercedMonk, 20 février 2010 - 01:19 .

[AntiChri5]

PiercedMonk wrote...

MaaZeus wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

LoweGear wrote...

Staylost wrote...

She couldn't even kill "1 bullet from an ME1 pistol and I'm dead" Nihlus.

You do kow that Nihlus was killed because he didn't expect a bullet from a friend right? Samara was fighting Nihlus in a "fair" battle where both knew who the enemy was. Nihlus was killed because he trusted Saren, turned his back on him and got shot in the process.

Saren had the element of surprise to be able to off Nihlus like that, Samara didn't.

Yeah a friend WITH A GETH ARM AND WEIRD CYBERNETIC IMPLANTS NOBODY SHOULD HAVE!

Errr... Cybernetics are pretty much everyday occurence ME Universe. Its possible that Saren has had them for looong time. Who knows if he lost his eyes in some unfortunate mission, and arm another. Its not a "Geth" arm.

Not only was Saren a friend, he was Nihlus's mentor sort off. The one who took him to Spectres. There was no reason why he wouldnt trust him.

Look again, it's a geth arm. If Ashley, a member of a species that's only been part of the larger galactic community for thirty or so years, and who's had little to no experiance with non-humans can recognise the geth, then it strikes me as odd that Nihlus and the council wouldn't be put off by the fact that Saren's graphted what is obviously a geth arm to his own body.

It's really too bad Saren's "upgrades" weren't a gradual thing as the game progressed. He could have started off looking normal except the glowy eyes when he murders Nihlus. Then when you meet him again on Virmire, he could have the additions to his frill, and lose the arm in that fight. Finally, you meet him again on the citadel, and he's got the geth arm.

As it is, I would have expected the scene to go a little something more like this.


Nihlus: Saren?

Saren: Nihlus.

Nihlus: This isn't your mission, Saren. What are you doing here?

Saren: The council thought you could use--

Nihlus: And why in the name of the great mother's luminous cloaca do you have a geth's arm? You're in league with them, barefaced bastard!

*Pew, pew, pew! Epic Spectre on Spectre firefight until Shepard and co. show up, allowing Nihlus to get the upper hand, ending Saren's wretched existance. They then secure the beacon and return to the Normandy for punch and pie*

I am pretty sure this was originally planned but they never ended up making more than one model for Saren.

[PiercedMonk]

didymos1120 wrote...

PiercedMonk wrote...

Killing one creature isn't genocide, even if it is the last of it's kind. Genocide implies a much more deliberate and systemic approach. Which isn't to say that murder is okay, but the idea that killing the rachni queen is genocide makes me roll my eyes.

Well, too bad about the eye-roll thing, 'cause you're wrong.  The process of committing genocide typically involves large numbers, yes, but that's because, well, you haven't already committed it. But does it suddenly cease to be genocide when you've only got one left to go before they're all finally exterminated? Or if you wait a week, month or year or whatever before finally doing 'em in?

No, it ceases to be genocide when you're not the one responsible for it.

Let's say that in the Summer of 1994, a guy in the States killed a Rawandan refugee for his wallet. The guy would certinally be a murderer, but you wouldn't accuse him of being a genocidal maniac, would you?

Humanity in general and Shepard in specific never had any part in the extermination of the rachni. His or her decision isn't based upon the Council's war, or the krogan's systemic destruction, but whether or not he or she believes one individual being represents a threat great enough to justify it's destruction.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that both the decisions available are short sighted. Killing the queen is almost inexcusable, but simply allowing her to leave is ridiculously naive. Also, there's no reason that Shepard should have to make the decison on the spot. The issue is certinally ouside the realm of his or her experiance. The Council should have been informed, and a meassure of due process granted. But then, there's several decisions like that in both games, where you're forced to choose between two stupid options, despite there being a plainly obvious smart decision being denied to the player.

[didymos1120]

PiercedMonk wrote...

Let's say that in the Summer of 1994, a guy in the States killed a Rawandan refugee for his wallet. The guy would certinally be a murderer, but you wouldn't accuse him of being a genocidal maniac, would you?

For his wallet? No.  However, if this hypothetical guy ran into this hypothetical Rwandan, found out he was Rwandan, and then killed him because he thought the whole "killing Rwandans" thing was a capital idea, then yes:  I would say it's genocidal behavior.  If that guy were the also last Rwandan living, I'd consider that finalizing the genocide.  In the ME case specifically: there's nothing even remotely analogous to the notional wallet there, and Shep works for the government which was ultimately responsible for the (apparent) destruction of the Rachni the first time around. 

Modifié par didymos1120, 20 février 2010 - 01:29 .

[AntiChri5]

didymos1120 wrote...

PiercedMonk wrote...

Let's say that in the Summer of 1994, a guy in the States killed a Rawandan refugee for his wallet. The guy would certinally be a murderer, but you wouldn't accuse him of being a genocidal maniac, would you?

For his wallet? No.  However, if this hypothetical guy ran into this hypothetical Rwandan, found out he was Rwandan, and then killed him because he thought the whole "killing Rwandans" thing was a capital idea, then yes:  I would say it's genocidal behavior.  If that guy were the also last Rwandan living, I'd consider that finalizing the genocide.

Say the last bear in the world (all the others having been killed before you were born) ran at you to eat you, but you had a shotgun and killed it.

Are you guilty of genocide?

[Valikdu]

AmstradHero wrote...
Or gunning down Batarians who've surrendered?

ooh, where can you do this? I can't remember where.

[AntiChri5]

Valikdu wrote...

AmstradHero wrote...
Or gunning down Batarians who've surrendered?

ooh, where can you do this? I can't remember where.

recruiting Mordin.

[Valikdu]

AntiChri5 wrote...
recruiting Mordin.

ehm, *these* ones didn't actually surrender, they still had guns and all