140 réponses à ce sujet

[malres]

I wonder if maybe you are able to take on Morinth because the whole Ardat-Yakshi thing is a story hook for a subplot about the Asari and that a couple of things about them are not quite as we think. I wrote it somewhere else already: 
a) Morinth claims that she is the genetic destiny of the Asari, but Samara says that Ardat-Yakshi cannot reproduce. Since it's a genetic disease and all of Samara's daugthers are Ardat-Yakshi, I wonder if maybe Samara's claim of AY's infertility is a lie and Samara is an AY herself. That would also explain why she won't have sex with Shepard, because it would give her away.
 Did anybody else notice that Aria on Omega, when asked how she managed to defeat the Patriarch, says something to the effect that she pulled the Patriarch's men to her side by using an Asari ability that her race doesn't want to be widely known?

Just wondering. What did you make of this?

[tudor03]

Terraneaux wrote...

Internet Kraken wrote...

This doesn't make her a religious zealot. The Justicar code is mostly separate from religion as far as I know. She isn't killing people because the goddess told her to.

First of all, I find it likely that her code is based on some aspect of the mainstream Asari religion, likely some nutso fringe sect, due to her being referred to as a monk and so on.  But there's a few ways that statement can be taken, so there isn't any hard evidence.  In any case, she definitely follows her code to the exclusion of all else, and is willing to kill people she otherwise likes in the furtherance of it.  It is more important to her than the lives of the people around her.  That's not the kind of person I would want on my ship.

Depends on your pointo of view. as a renegade. in some perspective thats exactly the kind of person you want. the concept of "mission goes above everything else" is not a stranger to a renegade. (refering mainly to quest plots and not petty threats for money or such)

one example where good might seem bad is the rachni queen from ME1.
GOOD means letting her live. from the majority's PoV (the galaxy) that was stupid. yet its a paragon move, BAD means killing her (yet the majority aproves). It all comes down to YOUR point of view, but its not necessarely GOOD because its a paragon move or BAD because its a renegade move.


on the other hand as pure paragon you most likely will go for saving everyone and everything but thats only ONE perspective to achieve peace and harmony (oh really?)

Going for the standard, " i'll let him live, he might change" from another perspective can be considered naive of someone who wants to save the universe. Leaving some guy walk away because he threatens some civilians is in a way stupid. On one side you wont jeoperdize the ppl there, but by letting him go ,you risk having even MORE deaths around the universe, maybe even you. Who knows if the guy you just let go isnt some psycho who will hunt you down and one day in omega he snipes your head from a balcony? ( in theory ofc). Bottom line is GOOD and BAD depend on perspective. a paragon decision can be sometimes bad, oposed to a renegade decision that could be far more good in the long run.

Modifié par tudor03, 20 février 2010 - 10:30 .

[Fromyou]

you can have sex with her (though it causes death)

[AmstradHero]

Internet Kraken wrote...
Except that for every reason I have seen, there is nothing to support this decision in the game. That is the issue. People make up reasons to choose Morinth over Samra. ... If this weren't true, then so many people would not be baffeled by this decision.

I know my Renegade Shepard is going to be extremely wary of Samara, and so when that opportunity comes up, she's not going to leave herself open to being killed by a justicar.

This justification doesn't really work either since it's basically exchanging one potentially dangerous person for another potentially dangerous person. The difference between the two is that Morinth has proven herself to be far more dangerous than Samara.

What part of it's the player's choice do you not understand?  It's not up to the game to tell the player what decision to make. That's why it's a roleplaying game.  If people "make up reasons to choose Morinth over Samara" there wouldn't be quite a number of people saying they've picked Morinth.

I gave one reason for picking Morinth: Samara is going to be bound by the justicar code to attempt to kill the player.  Morinth can be persuaded into some degree of submission, so even though she's a killer, I can pull her into line.

But you didn't like that one, even though it's a perfectly valid conclusion for Shepard to make. How is it a "made up reason"? Regardless, I'll pose another train of thought for you:

Morinth is a serial-killer and a psychopath, but if I'm going up against the reapers, I want the most badass characters there are to help me. An asari who has been able to escape a justicar hunting her for 400 years while committing crimes is going to be a pretty serious foe. Provided I can bully her into obedience, (which my Renegade Shepard is capable of doing) then I want her on my side to help take down the collectors/reapers.

OR:
Samara annoyed me with her judgemental behaviour. I'm attracted to the dangerous psychopath. I'll pick Morinth. No one said Shepard couldn't be fickle.

Or what about:
Morinth may be a killer, but I know her motivations and desires - she wants to suck the life out of interesting/attractive people. However, I don't know the entire justicar code and what that might lead Samara to do.  Therefore Samara is the more dangerous one of the two because I can't predict her actions.

That's just off the top of my head.  There are lots of reasons why people could pick Morinth. Just because you can't think of them or you don't agree with them doesn't mean that they don't exist.

Modifié par AmstradHero, 20 février 2010 - 10:43 .

[Kajan451]

Drayvenn wrote...

I agree. I could not think of reason why even renegade Shepard would allow Morinth to live. Only real plot hole that bothered me in the game.

Because Samara just tells you after you killed Morinth that she is steril and can't get any children. At the point you get to choose you have only Samara claiming Morinth to be a defect and Morinth to claim to be the next evolution step of the Asari.

Only after you decide for Samara she will tell you that Morinth can't reproduce and thus can't be the next step of evolution.

And i don't see where Morinth would be a less appealing choise then... Jack. Both are psycho killers.

Besides.. i want one Savegame where i save Morinth, just to see what will become of her in ME3. (I got a shepard specially for this kind of choises... the one i would have never taken if i was serious)

[tudor03]

AmstradHero wrote...

Internet Kraken wrote...
Except that for every reason I have seen, there is nothing to support this decision in the game. That is the issue. People make up reasons to choose Morinth over Samra. ... If this weren't true, then so many people would not be baffeled by this decision.

I know my Renegade Shepard is going to be extremely wary of Samara, and so when that opportunity comes up, she's not going to leave herself open to being killed by a justicar.

This justification doesn't really work either since it's basically exchanging one potentially dangerous person for another potentially dangerous person. The difference between the two is that Morinth has proven herself to be far more dangerous than Samara.

What part of it's the player's choice do you not understand?  It's not up to the game to tell the player what decision to make. That's why it's a roleplaying game.  If people "make up reasons to choose Morinth over Samara" there wouldn't be quite a number of people saying they've picked Morinth.

I gave one reason for picking Morinth: Samara is going to be bound by the justicar code to attempt to kill the player.  Morinth can be persuaded into some degree of submission, so even though she's a killer, I can pull her into line.

But you didn't like that one, even though it's a perfectly valid conclusion for Shepard to make. How is it a "made up reason"? Regardless, I'll pose another train of thought for you:

Morinth is a serial-killer and a psychopath, but if I'm going up against the reapers, I want the most badass characters there are to help me. An asari who has been able to escape a justicar hunting her for 400 years while committing crimes is going to be a pretty serious foe. Provided I can bully her into obedience, (which my Renegade Shepard is capable of doing) then I want her on my side to help take down the collectors/reapers.

OR:
Samara annoyed me with her judgemental behaviour. I'm attracted to the dangerous psychopath. I'll pick Morinth. No one said Shepard couldn't be fickle.

Or what about:
Morinth may be a killer, but I know her motivations and desires - she wants to suck the life out of interesting/attractive people. However, I don't know the entire justicar code and what that might lead Samara to do.  Therefore Samara is the more dangerous one of the two because I can't predict her actions.

That's just off the top of my head.  There are lots of reasons why people could pick Morinth. Just because you can't think of them or you don't agree with them doesn't mean that they don't exist.

you are completly oblivious to what he was trying to say in the first place.
your decision is YOURS to have, noone questioned that. The thing that he was pointing out was the fact that the GAME trough dialogues and information given untill the moment of the decission, does not offer enough insight for such a harsh decission.

You are passing on an asaari whom the illusive man recomended,for starters all dosiers you received so far we're all capable people. on the other hand morinth is 1 unknown to both sheppard, illusive man and anyone else, 2 the only information given untill then is the fact that she is extremly dangerous and can manipulate people to her will, 3 you cant guarantee she will do as you please ( like someone else said before, she could sneak around the ship and kill everyone, maybe even you in your sleep, due to her need to "mate') 3 we know that samara will not lie to you, on the other hand morinth does that quite often to confuse her mates and  4 you know for a fact that samara will do as you see fit untill you finish the job. that doesnt imply the contract is finished once the collectors are defeated in the omega4 relay. taking into consideration that the plot continues into ME3 in one way or another, just like it continues from ME1, the contract might be active for some time to come after.

all in all. the game offers little insight and credibility to morinth to be taken into consideration as "sheppard". As a "player" ofc you may do as you see fit and you may give your sheppard your own reasoning.

[AmstradHero]

I'm only responding to what he's said in his posts. He said there is no reason to take Morinth along. I pointed out some. The decision comes a little out of left-field? Pardon me, but I thought surprises were generally considered a good thing in plot writing?

As for your points:
1. Grunt is also a complete unknown - we didn't get a dossier on him.
2. Jack and Thane are dangerous, though not manipulative (though Miranda certainly is).
3. I can't guarantee anyone on the ship will do exactly as I please.
4. I can't remember the specifics of Samara's pledge, but I'm pretty sure it was only for the collectors. (But I suppose if you gain her loyalty, then maybe she arbitrarily decides to extend it to the reapers - but possibly a bit of a moot point if you're renegade)

Finally, the player is Shepard, ergo player's reasoning = Shepard's reasoning.

Does taking Morinth seem like a crazy option? Yes.  And I personally would like to see a little more evidence to sway me to Morinth's side, but I wholeheartedly disagree that it's ridiculous for people to side with her.

[Kajan451]

If you released the Rachni Queen... you might as well save Morith for the same reasons. She is an endangered species as well... both are potentially dangerous.

[tudor03]

1Grunt isn't a good example to begin with as both Grunt and Legion are optional after doing their recruitment quests. you can just keep him in the tank/ leave legion inactive.



2 Jack i agree is a little psycho and there is room for more possibilities around her, as for Thane i don't see him as dangerous at all, he only kills based on contracts and he decides wether to take them or not in most cases, as for the ones that he cant deny, are mostly related to hanar religious/political cases which are irrelevant to the plot, in other words he's 100% trustworthy, the information you get about him before and after is sufficient to prove that. As for Miranda, she may be a little ****, but if you talk to her and jacob especially, you'll see that she's working for cerberus mainly because they saved her and gave her a good purpose AND looking out for her "sister". The way she thinks is understandable due to her loyalty mission and the information we receive about her past.



3 is all a mater of perspective, you have a lot of members that although are part of cerberus, they don't necessarily work for them directly, Kelly and the mechanics were all hired for this particular job. now if you wanna be skeptical about everyone its understandable, but having the ship in joker's hand (for the majority of the game anyway) makes me feel pretty secure. also there's garrus and tali who i trust blindly (considering the overall plot).



4. as for the collectors i said the collectors beyond the omega4 relay. aka the suicide mission.

that doesn't necessarily imply those are the only ones. As far as we know, there might be others but those are just the ones shown to us so far.



again you are bringing forth your own reasons to picking her. Wether she's badass ore more enjoyable to you than samara its your call. but when you're faced with the "obligation" of saving the universe you'd at least want to know something about the person you take along. Or do you imply you'd hop in a gorgeous girl's car just because she looks better and seems more interesting than the person next to you?

Also taking into consideration that morinth has been killing people for hundreds of years, (god knows how many) and her mother became a justicar just to kill her own daughter, giving up on her emotions and feelings for her, id say something is really bad.

there simply isn't enough information given and since you have to make the decision on the spot, unlike legion or grunt, it makes the scenario a lot harder to go for. I think you're relying mostly on your feelings than reasoning. Its ok for playing the game and discovering different situations. but its not ok to bring feelings in a debate.

[Series5Ranger]

PiercedMonk wrote...

MaaZeus wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

LoweGear wrote...

Staylost wrote...

She couldn't even kill "1 bullet from an ME1 pistol and I'm dead" Nihlus.

You do kow that Nihlus was killed because he didn't expect a bullet from a friend right? Samara was fighting Nihlus in a "fair" battle where both knew who the enemy was. Nihlus was killed because he trusted Saren, turned his back on him and got shot in the process.

Saren had the element of surprise to be able to off Nihlus like that, Samara didn't.

Yeah a friend WITH A GETH ARM AND WEIRD CYBERNETIC IMPLANTS NOBODY SHOULD HAVE!

Errr... Cybernetics are pretty much everyday occurence ME Universe. Its possible that Saren has had them for looong time. Who knows if he lost his eyes in some unfortunate mission, and arm another. Its not a "Geth" arm.

Not only was Saren a friend, he was Nihlus's mentor sort off. The one who took him to Spectres. There was no reason why he wouldnt trust him.

Look again, it's a geth arm. If Ashley, a member of a species that's only been part of the larger galactic community for thirty or so years, and who's had little to no experiance with non-humans can recognise the geth, then it strikes me as odd that Nihlus and the council wouldn't be put off by the fact that Saren's graphted what is obviously a geth arm to his own body.

It's really too bad Saren's "upgrades" weren't a gradual thing as the game progressed. He could have started off looking normal except the glowy eyes when he murders Nihlus. Then when you meet him again on Virmire, he could have the additions to his frill, and lose the arm in that fight. Finally, you meet him again on the citadel, and he's got the geth arm.

As it is, I would have expected the scene to go a little something more like this.


Nihlus: Saren?

Saren: Nihlus.

Nihlus: This isn't your mission, Saren. What are you doing here?

Saren: The council thought you could use--

Nihlus: And why in the name of the Great Mother's Luminous Cloaca do you have a geth's arm? You're in league with them, barefaced bastard!

*Pew, pew, pew! Epic Spectre on Spectre firefight until Shepard and co. show up, allowing Nihlus to get the upper hand, ending Saren's wretched existance. They then secure the beacon and return to the Normandy for punch and pie*

You forgot "Wow look at Saren's Ship" "I better go investigate it"

-and Continue plot as before with Nihlus taking Saren's spot.

[AmstradHero]

I wasn't bringing up my own reasons for picking her - I was bringing up example reasons for picking her.



Ultimately the point I was making that it is a decision forced upon the player. People have to make choices, sometimes with incomplete information. You don't learn anything more about Grunt or Legion when they sit inert on the ship - so you're still making a choice whether or not to have them join you on roughly the same amount of information as Morinth - which is sod all.



I give up. Your whole feelings/reasoning argument is a little flat as this whole debate is based on opinion. There's logical reasoning and feeling in the decision no matter what choice you make. You believe one thing, other people believe another. It's as simple as that.



Peace out.

[Your Synthetic Superior]

AmstradHero wrote...

She doesn't want us to cross paths after our mission to destroy the collectors is finished... well, gee I hope I don't see her once that's done, you know...  like... on the Normandy... oh.. wait...

Why is Morinth an option? Because it gives players a choice. Just because you don't agree with that choice doesn't make it wrong. People have given a number of different reasons why they've chosen to side with Morinth over Samara, which are accurate for their roleplaying decisions for Shepard and his/her character.

Why do you feel you can tell anyone how they can or can't roleplay the game of their character?

There is no plot hole here because it is based on character choice.

1.) I don't recall a final fight against Samara after the collector base is neutralized. It seems obvious that her oath is not dissolved and by her wording it is obvious that she will depart from you, not flip a switch and start attacking you out of the blue whenever the oath is, in fact, dissolved. And it is only dissolved when Shepard releases her from it. There is no stipulation in her oath saying that she's free to go when the mission against the collector base is over.

2.) Picking Morinth is not a valid decision from a roleplaying point of view. Shepard is not retarded. It is a "Hey, I wonder what kinds a of conversations I'll have with Morinth on the Normandy" curiousity decision.

3.) I did not tell anyone how they can or cannot play ME2. I told people that the choice to side with Morinth, as it is presented, is out of place. And it is.

Internet Kraken wrote...

Her sense of self-preservation is too strong.  She understands the threat the Reapers and Collectors pose.  The problem with religious zealots like Samara is that sometimes they do things *against* their sense of self-preservation, and when you're on a mission to save all galactic life that's a bad thing.

Your points are flawed. 

1. There is nothing religious about her motives.

2. Going on a supposed suicide mission goes against your self preservation argument.

3. Wouldn't Morinth slipping off the ship and ditching the mission constitute the great act of self preservation? Or just going back on her offer and biotic slamming the armorless and gunless Shepard in her apartment after she kills Samara? 

Terraneaux wrote...

She believes in justice without mercy to a ridiculous degree - and also assumes that anyone who does anything against her (police holding her for questioning, an entirely legal practice) to be in the wrong and worth killing.  Her belief either comes from her religion or is formed by such an unreasonably level of devotion that it could be considered one.  

The power that the Justicar hold IS part of the asari legal system. It not like every asari she comes across hate her guts. They respect her tremendously and willing submit to her authority... unless they ARE criminals?

Modifié par Your Synthetic Superior, 21 février 2010 - 03:10 .

[Your Synthetic Superior]

malres wrote...

 Did anybody else notice that Aria on Omega, when asked how she managed to defeat the Patriarch, says something to the effect that she pulled the Patriarch's men to her side by using an Asari ability that her race doesn't want to be widely known?

Just wondering. What did you make of this?

The asari were buying loyalty with sex... that was the major perk that made the Patriarch's men cross him. I thought it was fairly obvious.

[didymos1120]

AntiChri5 wrote...
Say the last bear in the world (all the others having been killed before you were born) ran at you to eat you, but you had a shotgun and killed it.

Are you guilty of genocide?

No.  And another poor analogy: the Rachni Queen was trapped in a reinforced tank rigged with acid and couldn't run at, much less attempt to eat, anybody.  Also: she was having a rational conversation with you at the time.  Bears tend not to talk a whole lot.  On the other hand, if I were Stephen Colbert, and I shot the bear, then yes: that would be genocidal behavior.

[didymos1120]

Kajan451 wrote...

If you released the Rachni Queen... you might as well save Morith for the same reasons. She is an endangered species as well... both are potentially dangerous.

How is Morinth, a single Asari w/ a rare genetic disorder, an endangered species?  Especially when she's not even the last living Ardat-Yakshi?

[MutantSpleen]

malres wrote...

I wonder if maybe you are able to take on Morinth because the whole Ardat-Yakshi thing is a story hook for a subplot about the Asari and that a couple of things about them are not quite as we think. I wrote it somewhere else already: 
a) Morinth claims that she is the genetic destiny of the Asari, but Samara says that Ardat-Yakshi cannot reproduce. Since it's a genetic disease and all of Samara's daugthers are Ardat-Yakshi, I wonder if maybe Samara's claim of AY's infertility is a lie and Samara is an AY herself. That would also explain why she won't have sex with Shepard, because it would give her away.
 Did anybody else notice that Aria on Omega, when asked how she managed to defeat the Patriarch, says something to the effect that she pulled the Patriarch's men to her side by using an Asari ability that her race doesn't want to be widely known?

Just wondering. What did you make of this?

Ohh very interesting.  That would be totally freaky if Samara was an AY too. If that is the case and AY are not really infertile, wow! Major secret the Asari are hiding, and would explain why they take such severe measures with them.  I hope we learn more about that in ME3

As far as Aria was speaking I think she and her other asari just lured them to follow her with sex.

[Terraneaux]

MutantSpleen wrote...

Ohh very interesting.  That would be totally freaky if Samara was an AY too. If that is the case and AY are not really infertile, wow! Major secret the Asari are hiding, and would explain why they take such severe measures with them.  I hope we learn more about that in ME3

As far as Aria was speaking I think she and her other asari just lured them to follow her with sex.

Remember that biotic mind-control abilities were new in ME2.  They might be... a bit of a surprise to other races once they learn that the asari have them.  Before that all of the biotic powers were based around telekinesis and stuff.

[Paladus902]

Morinth: For those players who want to die smiling.

[Kajan451]

didymos1120 wrote...

Kajan451 wrote...

If you released the Rachni Queen... you might as well save Morith for the same reasons. She is an endangered species as well... both are potentially dangerous.

How is Morinth, a single Asari w/ a rare genetic disorder, an endangered species?  Especially when she's not even the last living Ardat-Yakshi?

The last living Ardat-Yakshi living in freedom. The other two are locked away. Morinth claims to be the next step in Asari Evolution. Samara says the Asari hunt the Ardat-Yakshi down and either imprison them or kill them if they refuse to be imprisoned.

At the point you have to choose between killing Morinth or not...  you can either take Samara's word and her "Black/White" World view... who killed a Merc subdued Merc for being a Merc and who explains to you that she takes the oath but when you do something that offends her code while she is oathbound she will come to kill you after she is done with her oath. And it doesn't matter if your paragon or renegade.. Samara informed me in all 4 games i did of this. And you got Morinth.. a woman with a predator nature being forced to do so by her genes, which propably doesn't make her any worse than a Krogan, who is highly aggressive due to his nature, and being hunted for it.

If you released the Rachni, despite knowing the Galaxy had to unleash the Krogan to stop the Rachni from killing the whole universe, just because she is the last of her kind and seems to be able to be reasoned with... You might as well save Morinth for the very same reason. She is also the last of her kind in freedom. A "race" that is being hunted and killed since the "campfires" of prehistoric Asari Culture for being different and predatory in nature.

Morinth to be steril is an information you only get after you made your choise.

Modifié par Kajan451, 21 février 2010 - 01:53 .

[Adon 9]

Kajan451 wrote...

Morinth to be steril is an information you only get after you made your choise.

Not true, actually.  The codex entry on Ardat-Yakshi also states that they are sterile, and that entry appears before you make your choice.  I can't blame people for missing that, but it's not JUST Samara's word on it that Ardat-Yakshi are sterile.

It should also be noted that the codex mentions that Ardat-Yakshi have a fundamental lack of empathy -- which is pretty much textbook sociopathy, and it's behavior that Morinth definitely displays.

[cronshaw8]

Lmaoboat wrote...

Because Bioware knows that even if someone utterly irredeemable sociopath rapist/serial killer, there's going to be a group to people devoted to trying to make them look not so bad,

haha nice. So true.

[PREY985]

So you can actualy recruit Morinth? thats crazy

[cronshaw8]

Morinth is a sociopath and bitter enough that she could think "the genetic destiny" of the asari meant extinction. In other words ardat-yakshi are the last step. Asari should breed only with asari, producing more and more ardat-yakshi until only ardat-yakshi are left. Why should she care if the asari live on as a race after she dies, they tried to imprison her and have kept her on the run for 400 years.

Modifié par cronshaw8, 21 février 2010 - 02:18 .

[Count Viceroy]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Chaotic stupid.