140 réponses à ce sujet

[Internet Kraken]

MutantSpleen wrote...


Well, that really wasn't the point. The point is Jack is just as much a muderer as Morinth. Second how many innocent guards died in that ship? Yeah they were blue suns Mercs, but on the other hand they were locking up a lot of violent criminals. Even Garrus wasn't happy about all the guards dying when you cause the prison break. 

And so what? I hate Jack to. But Jack's status as a murderer doesn't make Morinth any better. And it still doesn't change the fact that recruitng Morinth is just plain stupid unless you look at it from a metagaming perspective.

Modifié par Internet Kraken, 21 février 2010 - 08:59 .

[tonnactus]

[quote]Your Synthetic Superior wrote...

[quote]InvaderErl wr

On another note, why don't Ardat-Yakshi go for krogan. Seems like they would have a good chance of surviving something that attacks the nervous system. They have a backup.
[/quote]
She had a krogan lover...

[Kolaris8472]

Kajan451 wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...

As for the space station, Jack ends up charged with Vandalism. Not mass murder, as far as we know. Yeah, she's a psychopath, and Thane's an assassin. Both have reasons for doing what they do beyond "the pleasure of the kill". 

Jack is charged for more than Vandalisem for that gig. Vandalisem is a charged laid on her because she dented the moon where she crashed the Station into. Thats what they called Vanadlisem for creating a new creater on a moon. Highjacking of the Space Station and stuff are different charges Jack mentions.

And we never saw any official charges against her, only what she tells you. So there might be multiple homocides on that list... she just never said she was charged with massmurder.

Morinth isn't any worse as Miranda. Bioengineered Aryan working for Al Queda Cerberus. Really... these double standards really suck. The whole game is full of psychopaths, massmurderers and racists. You work for an Organisation which did worse experiments on people as Josef Mengele in 2nd Worldwar. (And yes, as German i am partally offended by the way Miranda is portrait - which is a reason why i dislike that character)

One more Killer, who... unlike all the others has a real reason to murder (its in her genes) and torture people... isn't really such an unappealing decision to make. You made worse decisions by working with Cerberus, by keeping Miranda and Jack around, by breaking free a huge load of criminals, criminals whole planets pay for to have them locked away on a space station, and maybe by not destroying the Genophage cure... or whatever.

There isn't a double standard. 

Thane/Miranda/Samara had reasons for doing what they did beyond getting kicks from killing innocents with sex. In Miranda's case, when she realizes TIM and Cerberus stand on the opposite side of a rather morally gray area (keeping the Collector base), she immediately jumps ship. She genuinely thought what she was doing was right, that she was helping humanity. 

Or Thane, who considers himself just a tool like a gun to be used at the users responsibility. Even if you think he's full of it, that's what he believes. 

Motives matter. Morinth believes she's a cold-blooded murderer, and that's what she is. Maybe that means she's more honest with what she is than other party members like Thane and Jack, but it also makes her more accountable. 

And no, its not in her genes. That isn't a reason. What's in her genes is a unique method of killing, which she is in full control of whether she uses or not. Its a narcotic thrill for her now, but its one she wanted in the first place. Samara's other two daughters chose not to become serial killers. 

[cronshaw8]

Your Synthetic Superior wrote...

cronshaw8 wrote...

Morinth is a sociopath and bitter enough that she could think "the genetic destiny" of the asari meant extinction. In other words ardat-yakshi are the last step. Asari should breed only with asari, producing more and more ardat-yakshi until only ardat-yakshi are left. Why should she care if the asari live on as a race after she dies, they tried to imprison her and have kept her on the run for 400 years.

Interesting point. The genetic destiny of the asari, if they never left their homeworld = extinction. That is why they dislike the asari who breed within their own species.

I can't take complete credit. The main character in Tolstoy's "Kreutzer Sonata" is a misanthrope who argues that there is no compelling reason the human race should continue to exist. It is complicated and tied to the guy's views on sex and relationships but this discussion made me think about it. Anyway it is a great story.

Modifié par cronshaw8, 22 février 2010 - 12:09 .

[Kajan451]

Kolaris8472 wrote...

And no, its not in her genes.

Technically, as human being, don't need to eat meat. Yet many humans do it for the kicks. Because it tastes well. And they kill for it. Its also in their genes to enjoy eating meat. Humans might not get high from it, but they enjoy it. And that alone is enough reason to murder other creatures.

And about the other two you mention. These two decided to be imprisoned for the rest of their lives. They could choose between dying in freedom or living in a prison. They didn't choose not to kill people. They choice was not to be killed for what they are.

Humans basically don't need to have sex. Many humans do lack the ability to reproduce. Now imagine we take all these people.. who have AIDS, because they potentially kill people with having sex (and they would have sex for the kicks).. and tell them: Death or Prison. Thats basically the decision Morinth and her Sisters faced. They can either be hunted down like the rabbid animals they are for having sex that kills... or be imprisoned for life.

And you can damn well be sure... if i would be hunted by killers... i would damn well not care about anything anymore as well and live my life to the fullest. Why should i care? My own kind is out to kill me. They want me dead for what i am. I can understand Morinth and her stance to life. Why should she not life to the fullest? She has been death sentenced just for existing anyway.

[Your Synthetic Superior]

Kajan451 wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...

And no, its not in her genes.

Technically, as human being, don't need to eat meat. Yet many humans do it for the kicks. Because it tastes well. And they kill for it. Its also in their genes to enjoy eating meat. Humans might not get high from it, but they enjoy it. And that alone is enough reason to murder other creatures.

And about the other two you mention. These two decided to be imprisoned for the rest of their lives. They could choose between dying in freedom or living in a prison. They didn't choose not to kill people. They choice was not to be killed for what they are.

Humans basically don't need to have sex. Many humans do lack the ability to reproduce. Now imagine we take all these people.. who have AIDS, because they potentially kill people with having sex (and they would have sex for the kicks).. and tell them: Death or Prison. Thats basically the decision Morinth and her Sisters faced. They can either be hunted down like the rabbid animals they are for having sex that kills... or be imprisoned for life.

And you can damn well be sure... if i would be hunted by killers... i would damn well not care about anything anymore as well and live my life to the fullest. Why should i care? My own kind is out to kill me. They want me dead for what i am. I can understand Morinth and her stance to life. Why should she not life to the fullest? She has been death sentenced just for existing anyway.

So basically, what you're telling us is that if you had AIDS you would spread it like a wildfire?

Sir, you disgust me.

Modifié par Your Synthetic Superior, 22 février 2010 - 03:51 .

[flem1]

Kajan451 wrote...

Technically, as human being, don't need to eat meat.

Wrong.  Or, rather, only true given modern artificial nutrient supplements.

Humans are omnivores, period.

[MaaZeus]

Kajan451 wrote...

Kolaris8472 wrote...

And no, its not in her genes.

Technically, as human being, don't need to eat meat. Yet many humans do it for the kicks. Because it tastes well. And they kill for it. Its also in their genes to enjoy eating meat. Humans might not get high from it, but they enjoy it. And that alone is enough reason to murder other creatures.

And about the other two you mention. These two decided to be imprisoned for the rest of their lives. They could choose between dying in freedom or living in a prison. They didn't choose not to kill people. They choice was not to be killed for what they are.

Humans basically don't need to have sex. Many humans do lack the ability to reproduce. Now imagine we take all these people.. who have AIDS, because they potentially kill people with having sex (and they would have sex for the kicks).. and tell them: Death or Prison. Thats basically the decision Morinth and her Sisters faced. They can either be hunted down like the rabbid animals they are for having sex that kills... or be imprisoned for life.

And you can damn well be sure... if i would be hunted by killers... i would damn well not care about anything anymore as well and live my life to the fullest. Why should i care? My own kind is out to kill me. They want me dead for what i am. I can understand Morinth and her stance to life. Why should she not life to the fullest? She has been death sentenced just for existing anyway.

Morinths genetic disease is narcotic. She kills people and gets high from doing so. She also gets stronger by each person she kills so that gives her even more motivation to do so. She cannot control it! Other Ardat Yakshi cannot control it forever either AFAIK, hence the prison. And technically its not a prison, just a life of solitude and peace out of the way of civilization where tempation might grow too strong.

Comparing Morinth to person who has Aids doesnt work, unless you compare it to person who knows he has one and keeps spreading it around and getting sick satisfaction out of it. Those kind of people exist BTW...

I admit that its ethically wrong to comdemn her either to prison or death just because she was born with the defect. But in the case of abominations like her, like Samara says, those stories do not have an happy ending no matter what you do...

Modifié par MaaZeus, 22 février 2010 - 01:34 .

[MaaZeus]

doublepost

Modifié par MaaZeus, 22 février 2010 - 01:31 .

[cronshaw8]

Just because you empathize with morinth's situation or can see why she does what she does, does not mean (way to many "does"s there sorry) what she does (there's another one damnit!) her actions are justifiable. I may empathize with the horrible conditions in a terrorist's country, and understand how a complete lack of hope might cause someone to do horrible things. I might even admit i could do those same things if put in the same situation. That doesn't make it right. If i were honest with myself I would also have to admit that society would be right to hunt me down and punish me for my crimes.  Samara never says what happens to Morinth is "fair," I think she suggests quite the opposite, just that it is necessary.

Modifié par cronshaw8, 23 février 2010 - 12:04 .

[tommyb7973]

Lmaoboat wrote...

Because Bioware knows that even if someone utterly irredeemable sociopath rapist/serial killer, there's going to be a group to people devoted to trying to make them look not so bad,

LOL!!

[Kajan451]

Your Synthetic Superior wrote...

So basically, what you're telling us is that if you had AIDS you would spread it like a wildfire?

Sir, you disgust me.

If my gouverment would imprison or kill me for it? Yes. If my peers want me dead or imprisoned for something i got no influance in... you can damn well be sure i wouldn't care about them anymore as well.

MaaZeus wrote...

And technically its not a prison, just a life of solitude and peace out of the way of civilization where tempation might grow too strong.

You can build a golden cage, place every luxery in it... ornament it with silk and velvet.... it is still a cage at the end of the day.

MaaZeus wrote...

Comparing Morinth to person who has Aids doesnt work, unless you compare it to person who knows he has one and keeps spreading it around and getting sick satisfaction out of it. Those kind of people exist BTW...

I know they do. 

But thats not the point of this discussion. The question was: Why would anyone save her. And everyone keeps reasoning about Morinth to be such an awful person.

Its not like she has much of a choise... there is actually a side to her story as well. She is as much a victim as her own victims. Its her nature... she is compelled to do it... and because she is born like that she can decide to be imprisoned or killed.

Yes, she is a killer... but so are a lot of the other companions. I mean... Garrus is even admired for laying ambushs with firing lanes and sniper emplacements to slaugher dozens and dozens of Mercs. Are they criminals? Sure... does that mean they should be killed? Garrus is just as well a mass murderer and he shows no signs of regrets for it.

So yes, Morinth is an Asari Vampire.... and she is hunted by a fanatic Asari Paladin/Van Hellsing... but Morinth isn't any worse as all the others on that ship.

I think about the only "innocent" Squadmate you get is Tali... and even she could be faulted for her stance towards the Geth. All the others are a bunch of killers, racists or lunatics.

[MaaZeus]

Kajan451 wrote...

MaaZeus wrote...

And technically its not a prison, just a life of solitude and peace out of the way of civilization where tempation might grow too strong.

You can build a golden cage, place every luxery in it... ornament it with silk and velvet.... it is still a cage at the end of the day.

MaaZeus wrote...

Comparing Morinth to person who has Aids doesnt work, unless you compare it to person who knows he has one and keeps spreading it around and getting sick satisfaction out of it. Those kind of people exist BTW...

I know they do. 

But thats not the point of this discussion. The question was: Why would anyone save her. And everyone keeps reasoning about Morinth to be such an awful person.

Its not like she has much of a choise... there is actually a side to her story as well. She is as much a victim as her own victims. Its her nature... she is compelled to do it... and because she is born like that she can decide to be imprisoned or killed.

Yes, she is a killer... but so are a lot of the other companions. I mean... Garrus is even admired for laying ambushs with firing lanes and sniper emplacements to slaugher dozens and dozens of Mercs. Are they criminals? Sure... does that mean they should be killed? Garrus is just as well a mass murderer and he shows no signs of regrets for it.

So yes, Morinth is an Asari Vampire.... and she is hunted by a fanatic Asari Paladin/Van Hellsing... but Morinth isn't any worse as all the others on that ship.

I think about the only "innocent" Squadmate you get is Tali... and even she could be faulted for her stance towards the Geth. All the others are a bunch of killers, racists or lunatics.

I know. As I said, giving them a choice either of being imprisoned or death is ethically difficult, but due to her vampiric nature it is lesser of two evils. Either kill her or let her live and she continues her killing spree, harming millions of innocent people until finally being killed by old age (or another hunter). She cannot help it nor she cannot redeem it either. Choice should be easy one life over million innocents, but as I said, this story has no happy outcome. Inherently innocent life was still lost as she cannot help her genes. Sad but true.

But I wouldnt compare Morinths killing to those Garrus or Thane or any "good" person in your crew has done. Yes, taking a life is taking a life and doing so you have someones blood on your hands, but people they kill and their motives behind it can soften the act. Garrus's motives, while twisted, are inherently good as he tries to clean out mercs that cause a lot of suffering around the galaxy. Murders, drug dealing, etc... I do not necessarily agree with it, but I definetly agree more with him than Morinth where she only kills to fulfill her lust and get more power.

Modifié par MaaZeus, 22 février 2010 - 10:54 .

[Your Synthetic Superior]

Kajan451 wrote...

Your Synthetic Superior wrote...

So basically, what you're telling us is that if you had AIDS you would spread it like a wildfire?

Sir, you disgust me.

If my gouverment would imprison or kill me for it? Yes. If my peers want me dead or imprisoned for something i got no influance in... you can damn well be sure i wouldn't care about them anymore as well.

If your government would? They WILL imprison you for WILLFULLY TRANSMITTING A DEADLY DISEASE TO OTHER PEOPLE! If you have AIDS you have full control over your actions. People with AIDS do not magically become nymphomaniacs. Let me guess, you think that dogs with rabies should be allowed to murder all the children they want because it's not their fault, right? You're a real piece of work. 

And what did that human girl have to do with asari government wanting to keep her at a monastery?

[AmstradHero]

I was hoping to see something new from this thread, but I'm seeing the same arguments come from the anti-Morinth crew each time, focussing on the fact "Morinth is evil, therefore Shepard has no reason to pick her"

Kajan451 wrote...
But thats not the point of this discussion. The question was: Why would anyone save her.

I raised the options below previously - ALL of which are valid roleplaying choices based on a decision Shepard could make at the time.

AmstradHero wrote...
I gave one reason for picking Morinth: Samara is going to be bound by
the justicar code to attempt to kill the player.  Morinth can be
persuaded into some degree of submission, so even though she's a
killer, I can pull her into line.

... I'll pose another train of thought for you:

Morinth
is a serial-killer and a psychopath, but if I'm going up against the
reapers, I want the most badass characters there are to help me. An
asari who has been able to escape a justicar hunting her for 400 years
while committing crimes is going to be a pretty serious foe. Provided I
can bully her into obedience, (which my Renegade Shepard is capable of
doing) then I want her on my side to help take down the
collectors/reapers.

OR:
Samara
annoyed me with her judgemental behaviour. I'm attracted to the
dangerous psychopath. I'll pick Morinth. No one said Shepard couldn't
be fickle.

Or what about:
Morinth
may be a killer, but I know her motivations and desires - she wants to
suck the life out of interesting/attractive people. However, I don't
know the entire justicar code and what that might lead Samara to do. 
Therefore Samara is the more dangerous one of the two because I can't
predict her actions.

There are four entirely valid responses for Shepard to make (we're not talking metagaming here at all) based on what he or she has seen.

Do I think that more justification to pick Morinth would be nice? Yes. But that doesn't mean there's no valid reason for Shepard to pick her.

Modifié par AmstradHero, 23 février 2010 - 12:50 .

[Dormiglione]

Tisiphne wrote...

If you're truly evil, then Samara may easily be forced to kill you later on by her code.

I have 100% renegade, i did not destroy the collector base, after the epilogue i went to talk with samara. She said that it was an error to keep the collector's base, but she stands by my decision.

So, nothing happens. She is still loyal to shepard