281 réponses à ce sujet

[OctopusRush]

Xalm Grey wrote...


If you disagree about that money loss comment, just look at WoW. While some of you vilify it and the people that play it, it has made more money in a year than Bioware stands to ever see from this game. Because Blizzard had the common sense to market to MAINSTREAM people. Not a niche.

And here I'm afraid you lost me. Art is made to be itself and speak first,  appease its audience second, and make money third. If Bioware were more interested in cash than in producing a game they would like to call their own they would take the path of Pop Cap or make generic shooter #9246246246.

More is not better. A more popular game is not a better one, nor is it a worse one.

There is place in the world for art not aimed at you and opposed to your taste.

Modifié par OctopusRush, 09 novembre 2009 - 02:31 .

[Xalm Grey]

JEBesh wrote...

Xalm Grey wrote...

You are calling me dense and yet you are conceeding points to me in arguements. You sir are the thick one. They screwed the pooch and you are defending them even after admitting they screwed up. How cute. Do they pay you to be their patsy? I'd love to have someone take lashings for me when i screw up. Whats your price?

What am I conceding to you? That they botched the marketing? I "conceded" that long before you were ever aware of this game. I wasn't aware I was ever saying anything contrary to that. Yes, I told you it was your error in not making an informed purchase. No, I don't believe I should expect anything more out of the majority. Predictable or not, it is an error.

Long before i knew of this game. Now you are jumping to assumptions. And very very silly ones at that. You don't know "me". Try to keep your vast wisdom of everyone to the arguement at hand and leave the assumptions about what other people you don't know and will never meet out of this.

[Wardawg1001]

He's admitting the marketing campaign was bad (I can't comment, I didn't pay attention), hes not absolving you of your responsibility as a consumer to properly research something before you spend money on it. How is this not getting through to you? And none of this has anything to do with the the quality of the actual game.

[WickedAwesome]

Oh god who would waste their time typing or reading all of this nonsense

[Xalm Grey]

OctopusRush wrote...

Xalm Grey wrote...


If you disagree about that money loss comment, just look at WoW. While some of you vilify it and the people that play it, it has made more money in a year than Bioware stands to ever see from this game. Because Blizzard had the common sense to market to MAINSTREAM people. Not a niche.

And here I'm afraid you lost me. Art is made to appease the audience first, make money second. If Bioware were more interested in cash than in producing a game they would like to call their own they would take the path of Pop Cap or make generic shooter #9246246246.

There is place in the world for art not aimed at you and opposed to your taste.

And i suppose they merged with a huge monster like EA out of the goodness of their hearts right? Not monitarily driven in any way?

Alot CAN be learned from how blizzard handled making the game. They made a truck load of cash and are still infact making more of it. If you think that Bioware isnt money driven like any other company out there you are pretty deluded.

[JEBesh]

Xalm Grey wrote...

Long before i knew of this game. Now you are jumping to assumptions. And very very silly ones at that. You don't know "me". Try to keep your vast wisdom of everyone to the arguement at hand and leave the assumptions about what other people you don't know and will never meet out of this.

That was indeed an assumption, but I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. If you had been aware of this game for that long and still didn't know what the gameplay was like, I can only laugh at every one of your posts prior to this one.  I'll accept the concession in only acknowledging one part of the post, though.

[Xalm Grey]

Wardawg1001 wrote...

He's admitting the marketing campaign was bad (I can't comment, I didn't pay attention), hes not absolving you of your responsibility as a consumer to properly research something before you spend money on it. How is this not getting through to you? And none of this has anything to do with the the quality of the actual game.

Yes it is getting through to me. So as such a consumer i went to trusted sources and caught game footage and reviews that touted this as something it isnt. What part of that aren't you people getting? I'm not looking to be absolved of anything. I'm still trying to figure out why people who claim to be enjoying this game are here now instead of doing that? For such a great game there's alot of traffic on these forums from players who claim to love it. Yet here you people are. Interesting.

[Xalm Grey]

JEBesh wrote...

Xalm Grey wrote...

Long before i knew of this game. Now you are jumping to assumptions. And very very silly ones at that. You don't know "me". Try to keep your vast wisdom of everyone to the arguement at hand and leave the assumptions about what other people you don't know and will never meet out of this.

That was indeed an assumption, but I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. If you had been aware of this game for that long and still didn't know what the gameplay was like, I can only laugh at every one of your posts prior to this one.  I'll accept the concession in only acknowledging one part of the post, though.

I'm not conceeding anything to you my good man. While this game was in development i had heard the name and heard the idea. I'd read some scripture on what people figured it would be like. All the while playing ME and Kotor etc. God forbid that anyone can make an honest mistake which i did in picking this title up. But to have someone actually say "well its your fault for buying into what the company said it was going to be like as well as the reviewers, but but the company made a mistake.." then all i can say is no dice. Not happening.

Modifié par Xalm Grey, 09 novembre 2009 - 02:39 .

[Jason310M]

wow what diatribe.

[OctopusRush]

There are far easier ways to make money, for far cheaper.



Most companies, in the end, seek to make money but making RPGs is about the last thing one would go for if that was the sole interest.



EDIT: your last point is completely irrational. This forum is tiny and most DA:O users will never even go online for anything but DLCs or visit it. You are speaking to the hardcore fans of the game, trolls, and angry men seeking a refund.

[JEBesh]

Xalm Grey wrote...

Yes it is getting through to me. So as such a consumer i went to trusted sources and caught game footage and reviews that touted this as something it isnt. What part of that aren't you people getting? I'm not looking to be absolved of anything. I'm still trying to figure out why people who claim to be enjoying this game are here now instead of doing that? For such a great game there's alot of traffic on these forums from players who claim to love it. Yet here you people are. Interesting.

Once again, the Gamespot review you were originally referring to mentions traditional Baldur's Gate micromanagement.

Xalm Grey wrote...

I'm not conceeding anything to you my
good man. While this game was in development i had heard the name and
heard the idea. I'd read some scripture on what people figured it would
be like. All the while playing ME and Kotor etc. God forbid that anyone
can make an honest mistake which i did in picking this title up. But to
have someone actually say "well its your fault for buying into what the
company said it was going to be like as well as the reviewers, but but
the company made a mistake.." then all i can say is no dice. No
happening.

Who the hell is saying that? I'm
referring to the trailers specifically as being botched. As far as it
being "what the company said it was going to be like, as well as the
reviewers," it has always been referred to by the developers as a
cRPG in the veign of BG. The ridiculous TV spots are what I have a
problem with, not anything the developers said. If you refuse to accept responsibility as a consumer to make informed purchases, then there's no point in the discussion.

[Xalm Grey]

OctopusRush wrote...

There are far easier ways to make money, for far cheaper.

Most companies, in the end, seek to make money but making RPGs is about the last thing one would go for if that was the sole interest.

EDIT: your last point is completely irrational. This forum is tiny and most DA:O users will never even go online for anything but DLCs or visit it. You are speaking to the hardcore fans of the game, trolls, and angry men seeking a refund.

It's not irrational at all. Hardcore fans = "fan bois" i guess. Trolls i'm used to and honestly i don't mind. And i'm not seeking a refund. I'm seeking to see if Bioware cares enough to take valid issues with the game into concern. Thats not something anyone except them can answer. The rest, such as arguing on the forums is just to pass time. I don't love the game. Hence i'm not there playing it. I'm not requesting a refund either. I'd like to see them patch the game that they claimed to show and make it more open to mainstream play with the AI which wouldn't affect any of you "hardcore" lot at all. But yet here you are arguing with me over it. Keep on truckin'.

[OctopusRush]

I'd advice you to backtrack and re-read my posts. I agreed with you that the A.I. could be better as to help the less talented, but I disagreed on your reasoning being that it is sensible to design for the mainstream because obviously all games should be aimed at that audience alone.

You also stated that apparently the game is not a succcess due to all the people posting on the forum - the forum cannot in any way indicate the status of Dragon Age due to the reasons I have mentioned already. This claim I dubbed illogical.

Modifié par OctopusRush, 09 novembre 2009 - 02:52 .

[Xalm Grey]

JEBesh wrote...

Xalm Grey wrote...

Yes it is getting through to me. So as such a consumer i went to trusted sources and caught game footage and reviews that touted this as something it isnt. What part of that aren't you people getting? I'm not looking to be absolved of anything. I'm still trying to figure out why people who claim to be enjoying this game are here now instead of doing that? For such a great game there's alot of traffic on these forums from players who claim to love it. Yet here you people are. Interesting.

Once again, the Gamespot review you were originally referring to mentions traditional Baldur's Gate micromanagement.

Xalm Grey wrote...

I'm not conceeding anything to you my
good man. While this game was in development i had heard the name and
heard the idea. I'd read some scripture on what people figured it would
be like. All the while playing ME and Kotor etc. God forbid that anyone
can make an honest mistake which i did in picking this title up. But to
have someone actually say "well its your fault for buying into what the
company said it was going to be like as well as the reviewers, but but
the company made a mistake.." then all i can say is no dice. No
happening.

Who the hell is saying that? I'm
referring to the trailers specifically as being botched. As far as it
being "what the company said it was going to be like, as well as the
reviewers," it has always been referred to by the developers as a
cRPG in the veign of BG. The ridiculous TV spots are what I have a
problem with, not anything the developers said. If you refuse to accept responsibility as a consumer to make informed purchases, then there's no point in the discussion.

Then why are you retorting to me? I'm obviously not going to agree with you in any shape or form. We can agree to disagree and therefore end this arguement if you wish. I don't expect everyone to agree with me. I know alot do. Some don't want to speak on these forums for fear of being bashed ( gee i wonder why ) and some like me don't give a crap what people on the internet think. I mean honestly this is just typing practice for me while i cruise other sites and wait for downloads.

And the gamespot also pointed out the pause and play tactics in ME too. Doesn't mean your AI in the party were complete idiots you hand to direct by hand. Its not a valid arguement at all.

[Xalm Grey]

OctopusRush wrote...

I'd advice you to backtrack and re-read my posts. I agreed with you that the A.I. could be better as to help the less talented, but I disagreed on your reasoning being that it is sensible to design for the mainstream because obviously all games should be aimed at that audience alone.

You also stated that apparently the game is not a succcess due to all the people posting on the forum - the forum cannot in any way indicate the status of Dragon Age due to the reasons I have mentioned already. This claim I dubbed illogical.

I didn't in any of my posts say it wasn't a success. But it won't be near the one they think it is with all of the same complaints i have adding up on the forums enough to actually start a thread going titled "Why all the complaints about combat?"
Mainstream is where the videogame market is going. Its the smart thing to do honestly and the highly successful developers seem to have caught on. Well most of them. Like i said Bioware didn't join up with EA for fun. Money was behind it. Bioware isnt the salvation army with all good deeds and intentions. They are out to make money like the rest of them. The last 10 years says so with ME/JE etc.

[JEBesh]

Xalm Grey wrote...

Then why are you retorting to me? I'm obviously not going to agree with you in any shape or form. We can agree to disagree and therefore end this arguement if you wish. I don't expect everyone to agree with me. I know alot do. Some don't want to speak on these forums for fear of being bashed ( gee i wonder why ) and some like me don't give a crap what people on the internet think. I mean honestly this is just typing practice for me while i cruise other sites and wait for downloads.

And the gamespot also pointed out the pause and play tactics in ME too. Doesn't mean your AI in the party were complete idiots you hand to direct by hand. Its not a valid arguement at all.

I'm "retorting to you" because you're constantly twisting and misdirecting the discussion. You somehow don't understand that a botched marketing compaign does not relieve you of your responsibilities as a consumer. BioWare made a mistake in their marketing, and you made a mistake in your purchasing. The quality of the game itself has nothing to do with this.

If Gamespot mentioned "pause and play tactics" as it pertains to BG in a Mass Effect review, that's hilarious. I suspect they didn't actually allude to BG, though. Pause and play is not exclusively intrinsic to BG gameplay.

[OctopusRush]

The artist works for money, yes, but do you truly believe all fiction ever was created soley with profit in mind? The artist cannot make his dream a reality alone, and for free. The movie industry has moved on to Hollywood mass-production long ago and the video-game industry follows, but does this means there is no place for other styles of cinema?



Is making the most money possible the only thing one should think of? programming a video game is a long thankless job with countless unpaid overhours yet millions dream of holding it. To make good fiction - any fiction - one must have at least a shred of idealism.

[Wardawg1001]

Yes it is getting through to me. So as such a consumer i went to trusted sources and caught game footage and reviews that touted this as something it isnt. What part of that aren't you people getting? I'm not looking to be absolved of anything. I'm still trying to figure out why people who claim to be enjoying this game are here now instead of doing that? For such a great game there's alot of traffic on these forums from players who claim to love it. Yet here you people are. Interesting.

Obviously your trusted sources are bogus. I already quoted you enough proof that you didnt do your research when deciding to buy this game simply by taking 2 minutes to read the very first section of the official game FAQ. The gameplay footage shows exactly what the game is like. It shows mages casting spells with cooldowns and a limited mana pool, the player pausing to healing potions, relatively slow combat (compared to your typical action rpg), it shows pausing to check information and design strategies to deal with different foes, it shows party based combat with the player manually controlling multiple characters. I saw all of this in one video no less.



Some people don't get to sit around at home all day. Its called school, work, sitting on a train, etc. I'm amazed you have the stupidity to sit here and call us fanboi's and at the same time insinuate we dont even like the game.



Bioware isn't going to listen to **** you say. And its not because they dont care or they dont want to make a better game, but because you are not qualified to tell them how to make this game better. It clearly wasn't designed for you, and regardless of how you imagined the game to be from the limited and thoughtless "research" you claim to have done on it, the game came out exactly the way they wanted it. We're all very sorry that you spent money on a game you can't enjoy, but its not because the game is bad, and that is the bottom line. Go whine to their marketing people if you have such a problem with the way it was portrayed in the media, dont waste your time crying to the designers because they made a game targeted at a different type of player and you got fooled by cinematic trailers and a 3rd party review site.

[Xalm Grey]

I'm "retorting to you" because you're constantly twisting and misdirecting the discussion. You somehow don't understand that a botched marketing compaign does not relieve you of your responsibilities as a consumer. BioWare made a mistake in their marketing, and you made a mistake in your purchasing. The quality of the game itself has nothing to do with this.

If Gamespot mentioned "pause and play tactics" as it pertains to BG in a Mass Effect review, that's hilarious. I suspect they didn't actually allude to BG, though. Pause and play is not exclusively intrinsic to BG gameplay.

Thats your opinion man. You somehow don't seem to understand that the marketing campaign affected more people that just me. Thats what is called false advertising when they do thing's like that. Its actually illegal in some places. I bought the game and THAT was my mistake. Yes i made one. I purchased this game. So i admit that. That we can agree on. Why i made that mistake is something we won't agree on. I blame the false advertising and misleading information across sites. They spend millions on marketing. They have professionals in marketing come in and handle these things. And yet i should be soley accountable? You are living in a bubble. Really you must be. Marketing is huge. It sucks people in. Thats what its made to do. I got sucked in by false advertising regardless if they meant that TV commercial or not. Thats irrelevant. Its there. Some blame needs to be laid at the multi-million dollar company. Not just the consumer.

[Xalm Grey]

Wardawg1001 wrote...

Yes it is getting through to me. So as such a consumer i went to trusted sources and caught game footage and reviews that touted this as something it isnt. What part of that aren't you people getting? I'm not looking to be absolved of anything. I'm still trying to figure out why people who claim to be enjoying this game are here now instead of doing that? For such a great game there's alot of traffic on these forums from players who claim to love it. Yet here you people are. Interesting.

Obviously your trusted sources are bogus. I already quoted you enough proof that you didnt do your research when deciding to buy this game simply by taking 2 minutes to read the very first section of the official game FAQ. The gameplay footage shows exactly what the game is like. It shows mages casting spells with cooldowns and a limited mana pool, the player pausing to healing potions, relatively slow combat (compared to your typical action rpg), it shows pausing to check information and design strategies to deal with different foes, it shows party based combat with the player manually controlling multiple characters. I saw all of this in one video no less.

Some people don't get to sit around at home all day. Its called school, work, sitting on a train, etc. I'm amazed you have the stupidity to sit here and call us fanboi's and at the same time insinuate we dont even like the game.

Bioware isn't going to listen to **** you say. And its not because they dont care or they dont want to make a better game, but because you are not qualified to tell them how to make this game better. It clearly wasn't designed for you, and regardless of how you imagined the game to be from the limited and thoughtless "research" you claim to have done on it, the game came out exactly the way they wanted it. We're all very sorry that you spent money on a game you can't enjoy, but its not because the game is bad, and that is the bottom line. Go whine to their marketing people if you have such a problem with the way it was portrayed in the media, dont waste your time crying to the designers because they made a game targeted at a different type of player and you got fooled by cinematic trailers and a 3rd party review site.

NWN showed the same kind of mechanics in the trailer for it. I bought it and loved it. Trailers and info on the games are and can be very misleading. And yeah the choices i picked for review arent the best it seems i agree there. Bioware did also run a large campaign mass marketing this on TV as something else entirely. You people didn't get into this game because a buddy of a buddy told you like its some small indy game. Give me a break already with trying to lay it all on one person when a company cleared targeted more than one audience.

[JEBesh]

Xalm Grey wrote...

Thats your opinion man. You somehow don't seem to understand that the marketing campaign affected more people that just me. Thats what is called false advertising when they do thing's like that. Its actually illegal in some places. I bought the game and THAT was my mistake. Yes i made one. I purchased this game. So i admit that. That we can agree on. Why i made that mistake is something we won't agree on. I blame the false advertising and misleading information across sites. They spend millions on marketing. They have professionals in marketing come in and handle these things. And yet i should be soley accountable? You are living in a bubble. Really you must be. Marketing is huge. It sucks people in. Thats what its made to do. I got sucked in by false advertising regardless if they meant that TV commercial or not. Thats irrelevant. Its there. Some blame needs to be laid at the multi-million dollar company. Not just the consumer.

Oh for..

Yes, I don't understand that the marketing campaign affected more people than just you. That's why I earlier said that I knew the majority of people would be mislead by it. That's why I said the marketing campaign was BioWare's mistake, and that's why I said the same thing months before this discussion and people with the same concerns as you ever appeared. I never once said that the blame was on BioWare; I only said it was your mistake. Never both.

This is ridiculous.

[Xalm Grey]

Wardawg1001 wrote...

Yes it is getting through to me. So as such a consumer i went to trusted sources and caught game footage and reviews that touted this as something it isnt. What part of that aren't you people getting? I'm not looking to be absolved of anything. I'm still trying to figure out why people who claim to be enjoying this game are here now instead of doing that? For such a great game there's alot of traffic on these forums from players who claim to love it. Yet here you people are. Interesting.

Obviously your trusted sources are bogus. I already quoted you enough proof that you didnt do your research when deciding to buy this game simply by taking 2 minutes to read the very first section of the official game FAQ. The gameplay footage shows exactly what the game is like. It shows mages casting spells with cooldowns and a limited mana pool, the player pausing to healing potions, relatively slow combat (compared to your typical action rpg), it shows pausing to check information and design strategies to deal with different foes, it shows party based combat with the player manually controlling multiple characters. I saw all of this in one video no less.

Some people don't get to sit around at home all day. Its called school, work, sitting on a train, etc. I'm amazed you have the stupidity to sit here and call us fanboi's and at the same time insinuate we dont even like the game.

Bioware isn't going to listen to **** you say. And its not because they dont care or they dont want to make a better game, but because you are not qualified to tell them how to make this game better. It clearly wasn't designed for you, and regardless of how you imagined the game to be from the limited and thoughtless "research" you claim to have done on it, the game came out exactly the way they wanted it. We're all very sorry that you spent money on a game you can't enjoy, but its not because the game is bad, and that is the bottom line. Go whine to their marketing people if you have such a problem with the way it was portrayed in the media, dont waste your time crying to the designers because they made a game targeted at a different type of player and you got fooled by cinematic trailers and a 3rd party review site.

I disagree. I've seen whole MMORPG's change just due to the voice of people on forums. I don't expect them (bioware) to post here specially in such a loaded thread honestly. When someone really has to stoop to swearing with **** in the middle of the arguement i stop reading. It tells me you have nothing intelligent to say after that point.

Modifié par Xalm Grey, 09 novembre 2009 - 03:15 .

[Xalm Grey]

Oh for..

Yes, I don't understand that the marketing campaign affected more people than just you. That's why I earlier said that I knew the majority of people would be mislead by it. That's why I said the marketing campaign was BioWare's mistake, and that's why I said the same thing months before this discussion and people with the same concerns as you ever appeared. I never once said that the blame was on BioWare; I only said it was your mistake. Never both.

This is ridiculous.

But entertaining none the less. I find it funny how people are getting wound up by what i say. I enjoy a good debate as long as it stays a debate. I'm actually enjoying the exchange as long as its mildly civil. To each their own though right?

[Cortire]

Nightmare (or any difficulty for that matter) is not hard, just highly dependant on you playing it smart, well and not cutting corners (i.e. selecting whole party and right clicking hostiles, auto-level etc).



If you dislike micro-management perhaps this is not the game for you, in the same way that Halo is not for those who dislike aiming and shooting -- and world of warcraft is not for those who dislike grinds.



These are not reasons the game is average, they're reasons you think it is.

[JEBesh]

Xalm Grey wrote...

But entertaining none the less. I find it funny how people are getting wound up by what i say. I enjoy a good debate as long as it stays a debate. I'm actually enjoying the exchange as long as its mildly civil. To each their own though right?

If you've no retort other than "it's entertaining and I'm winding you up," then can you please skip to the "I TROLED U LOLOLOL" and be done with it? I'd hate to continue humoring you with actual logic if that's the case.