281 réponses à ce sujet

[TheMindWeaver]

Also, as far as the division between the hotbar functions and micromanagement and so forth, I think the general idea behind the game is an attempt to bridge the gap between 'turn-based' strategy, your basic run and gun. And the Tactics seem to me to be set up so you can put yourself at whichever point in the middle ground you feel most comfortable with. Personally, I generally only pause when I have several vital things I need to do at once OR I hit it very, very briefly simply to give myself a moment to make sure I don't hit the WRONG hotbar key (NOOOO, not Shield Wall!! Pummel you idiot, Pummel!! ).



Overall, as a first attempt, I can't say I think they did that badly with the transition. But what do I know, lol.

[ziphnor]

Regarding micromanagement:

I immediately turned off the party member AI when i started, exactly as i did in BG1,BG2 and NWN2/MotB. Like BG before it, it is in many ways a tactical RPG and therefore i want full control of my party. So for me the party AI is really an irrelevant feature. And yes, i pause all the time to issue orders



I did try to play a little with the tactics though and found it somewhat lacking as you describe. However. If the scripting language was just a little more expressive i wouldnt have an issue with it (i need the ability to have more complicated conditions).



Difficulty:

Do you remember Baldurs Gate? It some ways it can be seen to consist of a series of tough fights that frequently had you reloading to try a different strategy. Thats the part i loved most about BG1 and BG2 in fact. Im currently playing on Hard with a zero-potion-usage policy ( potions are for sissies and havent even been leveling my main character since i began the game (cant decide where to spent the points . Its just a touch hard because of my potion policy.



Its so nice to finally have a game that is actually challenging in an interesting way (ie you can see a huge difference in good strategy vs. crappy strategy), and therefore i find it very frustrating to see so many people complain about the difficulty. I really hope they dont adjust the Hard difficulty level because of this.

[robotnist]

what i have noticed is many complaints as to games difficulty or combat issues. what i have found is that, via settings i.e. difficulty slider you can play the game however you want.



easy- very little micro manage, guns blazing to get through the story for a laid back play through.

normal- a little more micro manage, death will prob happen if your not tracking most your moves.

hard- something to do after you beat the game on easy/normal

insane- something to do after you try and beat on hard and are just curious how hard the game can be made.

[Ub3r_]

wow, OP sucks much?



ive wiped about 3 times, been playing for 30 hours or more now, never had issues with "bad Companion AI" the only issues i've had are due to FF, ie i grease the floor and then fireball it, but oh! my tank is running in, i quickly got used to the possibility of that and with a bit of caution it hasn't been an issue. Play smart, seriously

[Vaeliorin]

While I appreciate that you expressed yourself so coherently, I largely disagree.



Your tactics issue seems to be a classic case of PEBKAC, since my main character is essentially identical to Leliana (rogue/bard focuses on archery) and I have no issues with him switching away from his bow (well, unless enemies are at short range, in which case he switches to dual daggers and uses dirty fighting...because that's what I programmed him to do.)



On the stamina issue...I don't see it as a problem...just don't spam abilities (there generally isn't a need to anyway, in my experience.)



I have had a couple locks I couldn't pick, but that's simply a case of my being too low level, I assume, and I'll go back and get them later (doing the Mage Tower at level 7/8.)



As for difficulty...I've been playing on hard, and I think it's probably a bit too easy. Seems more like it should be normal than hard. I don't micromanage much outside of boss fights (I'll focus fire on enemies if necessary), and I haven't really had any problems. The solo bits I've encountered so far kind of suck (mostly because I don't have many healing poultices, as I've not really bought any because I didn't need them, particularly after picking up Wynne and adding heal to Morrigan's spell list.)

[Sunjah Kahn]

"Before any respondants instantly go into fanboi mode, please at least read the points of the post before flaming them, I will be presenting them in quite a reasonable and easy to understand fashion.

...

2.  You have 3 other idiots that you literally have to micro-manage to the point of frustration to ensure they play their roles specifically..."

You make a few points of good parts to appease those readers who otherwise might've stopped after reading all the negatives, and then very quickly make a statement like this.  As soon as I read "You have 3 other idiots..." I pretty much knew it was a waste of a post (and a long one).

For the life of me, I still cannot see any value to playing any type of RTS game that does not have a "pause-and-give-orders" function.  I think EA's Middle-Earth RTS (1 and especially 2) are the most beautiful and deeply satisfying games ever, except you cannot pause and issue orders.  I haven't played it in years because of that.  Not my style, stupid if you ask me (like in a real war one person must be fighting 7 battles in 5 different locations, yeah, right!?!), takes all the fun out of a game (and lord I wish that game had that feature, would be among my top 10 games ever).

What I'm trying to say is, it is obvious this is not your type game.  Okay.  Move on.  Most people who enjoyed Baldur's Gate and other fantastic RPG's love this, it is awesome for them (and me).  No one is misunderstaning anything (I haven't seen evidence), this is a game that doesn't suit your tastes.  Cool.

Certainly doesn't make it a "bad" game, and your 2nd statement of having idiots was not presented in the manner you promised with, "I will be presenting them in quite a reasonable and easy to understand fashion."  Instead it was insulting, which made me skip the rest of your (long) (very long) (incredibly long) (painfully long for a game you just don't like) post.

Move on. 

Seriously, no one is going to revamp the game because it is not your style.

Modifié par Sunjah Kahn, 07 novembre 2009 - 10:15 .

[Leetabix]

SLPr0 wrote...

sypherin wrote...

You have SO got to learn how to use mages.

I'd prefer the mages more or less used themselves efficiently without my intervention unless necessary.

This is the point everyone seems to miss or appears to believe is somehow a fault. That because I don't want to hug my space bar and have every engagement take 20 minutes of micromanagement, I'm somehow....doing it wrong.

This dynamic we're seeing here in DA:O was also in NWN2, and I avoided that title like the plague, after enjoying the original NWN immensely and even doing some Aurora toolset modding on the side for fun.

I don't MIND party members I just don't want to have to MIND THEM or play them as if they were player characters. I want them to do what they're supposed to do, in some cases in DA:O, they do, in many cases, they do not.

If Leilana identifies a trap she should STOP MOVING....if Alistair is down, and Wynne is still alive and has mana she should REVIVE HIM. Theres not even a Tactics condition that allows for Ally = Dead Use = Revive combination....so she won't do it on her own, she can't be told to do it via tactics, you literally have to let go of control of your primary character switch to her and do it yourself, and thats the only way it gets done.

Thats the thing , this game basicly is a turn based game , and the AI can only do so much , I'd never let the AI for example have control of aoe spells which can nuke your party  , I'm afrade this game isint for you , it is the way the party play was designed in baulders gate, In NWN1/KotOR/Masseffect/jadeempire you control one charactor with a few henchmen that follow you around.

were as in bauldersgate/icewinddale/dragonage you are in complete control of your entire team, the game was advertised this way from the get go , clearly talking about the abiltiy to pause and manage your combat and stratagy , and that it was the succsesser to baulders gate, the AI is just ment to be an autopilot while your busy controling something else , rather than simply leaving the other 3 party members to there own devices.

[SLPr0]

Sunjah Kahn wrote...

"Before any respondants instantly go into fanboi mode, please at least read the points of the post before flaming them, I will be presenting them in quite a reasonable and easy to understand fashion.

...

2.  You have 3 other idiots that you literally have to micro-manage to the point of frustration to ensure they play their roles specifically..."

You make a few points of good parts to appease those readers who otherwise might've stopped after reading all the negatives, and then very quickly make a statement like this.  As soon as I read "You have 3 other idiots..." I pretty much knew it was a waste of a post (and a long one).

For the life of me, I still cannot see any value to playing any type of RTS game that does not have a "pause-and-give-orders" function.  I think EA's Middle-Earth RTS (1 and especially 2) are the most beautiful and deeply satisfying games ever, except you cannot pause and issue orders.  I haven't played it in years because of that.  Not my style, stupid if you ask me (like in a real war one person must be fighting 7 battles in 5 different locations, yeah, right!?!), takes all the fun out of a game (and lord I wish that game had that feature, would be among my top 10 games ever).

What I'm trying to say is, it is obvious this is not your type game.  Okay.  Move on.  Most people who enjoyed Baldur's Gate and other fantastic RPG's love this, it is awesome for them (and me).  No one is misunderstaning anything (I haven't seen evidence), this is a game that doesn't suit your tastes.  Cool.

Certainly doesn't make it a "bad" game, and your 2nd statement of having idiots was not presented in the manner you promised with, "I will be presenting them in quite a reasonable and easy to understand fashion."  Instead it was insulting, which made me skip the rest of your (long) (very long) (incredibly long) (painfully long for a game you just don't like) post.

Move on. 

Seriously, no one is going to revamp the game because it is not your style.

You seriously took offense to me referring to the NPC's as "idiots"? Really? 

I think what you don't understand is that I'm not asking for the game to be revamped, what I'm saying is that they obviously tried to marry RTS RPGs and real time action RPG's and they failed this process of fusion.

While you can play it "action style" I did..but its clunky and the fighting gets repetitive and boring that way.

And the RTSRPG elements are great for people that like that but BG/BG2 had TURNS. This game has NO turns at all.

So its a schizophrenic attempt at appeasing and enticing two entirely different types of RPG players under the same title and while its "strategy" element may please the RTSRPG player type, the action RPG player feels like they're playing a really badly made game.

So while I understand the whole "this just isn't your kind of game" argument, I'm not the one that began it, this argument started in the BioWare conceptual development meetings that decided to try to marry the two styles and get action RPG players to become RTSRPG players, and for the RTSRPG fan, they get the added fun and eye candy of an action oriented RPG.

Largely, all I'm saying is that if you wish to appease both kinds of players, the action oriented player needs a more hands off mode of play that doesn't result in general chaos and frustration. Which is what the action oriented RPG player gets.

So seriously, I've no argument with you I'm glad you've got a game you love and hey I really like it too, I just wish that they'd been more thorough in attempting to allow for a free floating method of play between hack and slash and pause and plan....thats all I'm saying.

Oh and that crafting is really....really...really bad.

[Vaeliorin]

SLPr0 wrote...
Oh and that crafting is really....really...really bad.

Pointless, perhaps (though there appear to be a number of people who are big fans of traps...not my thing) but it's not bad.  Bad implies that it's not functional or somehow detracts from the game, which it doesn't.  It simply doesn't add that much.

[SLPr0]

Oh and I forgot to mention one RTSRPG problem as well.



You can't queue orders. So theres no "go here, cast this, attack this target". You literally have to do that all in real time and to me that seems very top heavy for enjoyable game play indeed.



Now if I could queue up a few orders, that would be great, but it doesn't seem to be an option other than "Tactics" which, again, seem only vaguely applicable in the many variables situations present...and you can't set up a tactic that says to a rogue NPC, If enemy, approach from behind...or anything of that complexity.



So even the RTSRPG elements have their failures other than in the hands of the extremely hard core, super diligent, want to manage every aspect of whats going on kind of player.



And even in that case, you simply cannot react fast enough to manage four characters effectively, position them as the bulk of combat moves around and have them doing things as optimally as possible.



Thats my opinion of course I'm sure there are some human computers that can pull this off but its not in the realm of the cult and canny for your standard RPG player.

[SLPr0]

Vaeliorin wrote...

SLPr0 wrote...
Oh and that crafting is really....really...really bad.

Pointless, perhaps (though there appear to be a number of people who are big fans of traps...not my thing) but it's not bad.  Bad implies that it's not functional or somehow detracts from the game, which it doesn't.  It simply doesn't add that much.

If it doesn't add much, then its bad, because its taking up character development resources. Anything that wastes character development resources in such a null gain fashion is bad and I'm wondering how the crafting system got through QA to be honest.

[Marhkus]

Isn't there a Double queue...? I read that somewhere. I understand your gripes but for me, the pausing, managing and all is part of the fun so, that's why I disagree. I like playing god with my puppets hehehe!

[SLPr0]

Marhkus wrote...

Isn't there a Double queue...? I read that somewhere. I understand your gripes but for me, the pausing, managing and all is part of the fun so, that's why I disagree. I like playing god with my puppets hehehe!

I did not notice any noticable ability to queue any actions with any character. Doing one thing, unless it was a sustained effect, was immediately replaced by telling character to do something else.

Even on my PC character I couldn't tell him to "taunt" and line up a healing poultice behind it that I noticed, I will have to check this further to be sure of what I'm saying but from what I could tell actions seemed to be based in their real time use.

[Spaceweed10]

You're a MGS fan - nuff said.

[SLPr0]

Spaceweed10 wrote...

You're a MGS fan - nuff said.

Uh I've never even played an MGS game I'm just well aware of Hideo's profuse use of cinematics and cutscenes and was using that as a comparison.

But I guess maybe I didn't explain that full enough for the short attention span theater crowd either, so it is, of course, not your fault you made that assumption, its my own and I'll take the responsibility for not adding footnotes to what I felt were fully understandable references.

[Spaceweed10]

Ub3r_ wrote...

wow, OP sucks much?

ive wiped about 3 times, been playing for 30 hours or more now, never had issues with "bad Companion AI" the only issues i've had are due to FF, ie i grease the floor and then fireball it, but oh! my tank is running in, i quickly got used to the possibility of that and with a bit of caution it hasn't been an issue. Play smart, seriously

Hold your tank back until the spells have gone off?

[Spaghetti_Ninja]

You have a hotbar, a hot bar means you have action rpg elements that are currently in vogue with online RPG titles allowing for action based play.

You know, I could have read your entire post, but this little tidbit alone is enough to wipe away all your credibility.

Bioware games have had hotbars forever, since the days of Baldurs Gate. It has nothing to do with MMOs, and is not ''in vogue'' with anything other than the traditional gameplay we have come to expect from Bioware.

Alas, you tried and failed.

Normal - Expect to die far more
often, occasionally even to general area spawns simply because of the
same reasons stated above. You will likely break a keyboards
QuickSave/QuickLoad keys on this setting.

Hard - Are you kidding? You think I'd try this game on hard?

Nightmare - No thanks, I'm not this masochistic.

Aaaah, I see, you are simply a bad player who lacks the skill and/or intelligence to beat this game. Why didn't you say so.

Modifié par Spaghetti_Ninja, 07 novembre 2009 - 11:15 .

[wanderon]

SLPr0 wrote...

sypherin wrote...

You have SO got to learn how to use mages.

I'd prefer the mages more or less used themselves efficiently without my intervention unless necessary.

This is the point everyone seems to miss or appears to believe is somehow a fault. That because I don't want to hug my space bar and have every engagement take 20 minutes of micromanagement, I'm somehow....doing it wrong.

This dynamic we're seeing here in DA:O was also in NWN2, and I avoided that title like the plague, after enjoying the original NWN immensely and even doing some Aurora toolset modding on the side for fun.

I don't MIND party members I just don't want to have to MIND THEM or play them as if they were player characters. I want them to do what they're supposed to do, in some cases in DA:O, they do, in many cases, they do not.

If Leilana identifies a trap she should STOP MOVING....if Alistair is down, and Wynne is still alive and has mana she should REVIVE HIM. Theres not even a Tactics condition that allows for Ally = Dead Use = Revive combination....so she won't do it on her own, she can't be told to do it via tactics, you literally have to let go of control of your primary character switch to her and do it yourself, and thats the only way it gets done.

It's not a matter of getting it wrong becuase you prefer action rpgs to tactical rpgs - it's just that what you see as flaws to an action RPG are in fact features of tactical rpgs.

Adding great companions to the game means nothing if the AI is either so good or the enemies so lackluster that they can function perfectly without any input from the player. Tactical RPG is all about micromanagement - it's cool if you don't like that and perhaps as an action rpg the game is indeed average from that standpoint.

The game however was never touted as an action rpg - it has always been touted as the spiritual successor to BG - a tactical RPG where you CONTROL an entire party - not just bring them along for the ride as computer run weapons in your characters arsenal.

[MichealorMike]

As far as the party members switching to melee weapons, you can set them to Ranged and they won't do that. You can select behaviors as well as tactics. It's on the upper right on the tactics screen.

[MichealorMike]

Whoops, double post.

Modifié par MichealorMike, 07 novembre 2009 - 11:31 .

[SLPr0]

wanderon wrote...

SLPr0 wrote...

sypherin wrote...

You have SO got to learn how to use mages.

I'd prefer the mages more or less used themselves efficiently without my intervention unless necessary.

This is the point everyone seems to miss or appears to believe is somehow a fault. That because I don't want to hug my space bar and have every engagement take 20 minutes of micromanagement, I'm somehow....doing it wrong.

This dynamic we're seeing here in DA:O was also in NWN2, and I avoided that title like the plague, after enjoying the original NWN immensely and even doing some Aurora toolset modding on the side for fun.

I don't MIND party members I just don't want to have to MIND THEM or play them as if they were player characters. I want them to do what they're supposed to do, in some cases in DA:O, they do, in many cases, they do not.

If Leilana identifies a trap she should STOP MOVING....if Alistair is down, and Wynne is still alive and has mana she should REVIVE HIM. Theres not even a Tactics condition that allows for Ally = Dead Use = Revive combination....so she won't do it on her own, she can't be told to do it via tactics, you literally have to let go of control of your primary character switch to her and do it yourself, and thats the only way it gets done.

It's not a matter of getting it wrong becuase you prefer action rpgs to tactical rpgs - it's just that what you see as flaws to an action RPG are in fact features of tactical rpgs.

Adding great companions to the game means nothing if the AI is either so good or the enemies so lackluster that they can function perfectly without any input from the player. Tactical RPG is all about micromanagement - it's cool if you don't like that and perhaps as an action rpg the game is indeed average from that standpoint.

The game however was never touted as an action rpg - it has always been touted as the spiritual successor to BG - a tactical RPG where you CONTROL an entire party - not just bring them along for the ride as computer run weapons in your characters arsenal.

Ignoring the obvious troll above you....I'd have to say I really had no idea what this game was "touted" to be, in regards to what it was taking the torch from as it were.

I hadn't followed it through development, I'd heard random things but I'm a relatively busy person myself and I can't keep tabs on every potential GOTY in development cause, well that has very little to do with my job.

See to me, I caught the cinematics on Steam after hearing a few friends talking about it, and my brain went "oh wow this looks like a great story driven action RPG"...so obviously I made an error in that judgement but looking at the cinematics and what not you just get that impression....that its supposed to be a fast paced brutal story driven RPG game that hasn't been dumbed down for a PG-13 rating.

So as per usual I said "Excellent." and immediately bought the CE off Steam as per my usual habit.

As a systems designer and creative developer myself the story, alone, is enough for me to give this title an immense amount of credit. And what I mistake as "bad game design" yes, is, to you all, and likely to the developers the features of the game...features I will take my time to work out in another playthrough and see how I feel about them then...but overall as stated I was hoping for a more free form approach to playing the game.

Little less stop and a lot more action, would be good, as stated I played through the entire campaign more or less in hack and slash mode with very little micromanagement, unfortunately this was on easy, which will of course gain me more respondants who simply wish to tell me how much I "suck" but such is life really and I know what I'm good at and what I am good at I am extremely good at....so if I suck at RTSRPG's simply because it was not what I was expecting coming in the door, so be it...I suck, I'll live with that or find a way to not suck.

But as a designer myself, I am simply saying that a better marriage of the two styles could have been achieved and if anyone has the talent to do so it is, of course BioWare...so I found it a bit dissapointing that they did not achieve a perfect fusion of action and strategy.

I will let that slide based on the fact that the story alone, the characters and the cinematography are what I stayed for....not beating monsters. So as clunky as that part of the game felt to me, it still didn't matter enough for me to call the game a complete failure.

Average/Above Average, from an action RPG point of view, from an RTSRPG point of view, probably the best of its line ever.

But for a story that captivates the mind and makes you care about every minute you're a part of it? Nothing compares to date. And on that alone, this game could never be called a failure.

But then I'm a writer, an artist, and a hopeless romantic. So take that all with a grain of salt.

[Vasharai]

TL;DR version of OPs post:



I'm too lazy to utilize the tactics screen properly, therefore the game isn't as good as you think it is.



Seriously... I've not once had a problem that I couldn't fix by tweaking the tactics for whatever character made a stupid move. The action bar is so you don't have to click around the screen madly as you're frantically pausing and unpausing combat. It in no way makes the game an "action RPG".



Most of your negatives, as far as I can tell, are simply your shortcomings with the game and not actual problems. A better way to have titled this thread would be, "I'm lazy, this game sucks"... That's the point you basically got across.



I'm not speaking as a "fanboi", I'm simply sick of threads about how the game sucks or isn't as good as everyone says it is because the poster thinks the game is WoW. You know... Mindlessly hitting the same 3 buttons over and over again without having to pay mind to anything around you. It's not an action RPG, stop trying to play it as one.

[lazyhorse2]

the best negative post on the forum, gz:) actualy read it instead of instantly hating the guy who wrote it.

nice ending with, I don't hate the game etc

[SLPr0]

Vasharai wrote...

TL;DR version of OPs post:

I'm too lazy to utilize the tactics screen properly, therefore the game isn't as good as you think it is.

Seriously... I've not once had a problem that I couldn't fix by tweaking the tactics for whatever character made a stupid move. The action bar is so you don't have to click around the screen madly as you're frantically pausing and unpausing combat. It in no way makes the game an "action RPG".

Most of your negatives, as far as I can tell, are simply your shortcomings with the game and not actual problems. A better way to have titled this thread would be, "I'm lazy, this game sucks"... That's the point you basically got across.

I'm not speaking as a "fanboi", I'm simply sick of threads about how the game sucks or isn't as good as everyone says it is because the poster thinks the game is WoW. You know... Mindlessly hitting the same 3 buttons over and over again without having to pay mind to anything around you. It's not an action RPG, stop trying to play it as one.

Most of the negatives in this post have come from people like you, throwing insults around because you refuse to understand or comprehend my point of view. I'm not asking you to agree with me, nor am I saying I am right, I am conceeding to the legitimate and reasonable responses given to why what I stated may be in error.

I've stated what I've tried, the games been released for 5 days, most of the people responding to me have likely got less than 16 hours total played so far, I love how there are so many "experts" on it simply on the lynch pin argument that it is "not an action RPG".

Thank you Captain Obvious for restating what about 20 other people have said, and what I already knew when I posted my post. Again I will restate that I had hoped for a truer marriage of the two different styles...wouldn't it be great if you COULD play DA:O like WoW? For you maybe not, for millions of others, maybe so, who are you to judge what anyone finds fun? I don't judge you for your love of micromanagement, don't judge me because I like to hack and slash? Shall we call it a deal?

But if you were to tell me that a game of this magnitude wouldn't be an instant no contest GOTY candidate if it was an action RPG, you'd be lying to me, and you'd be lying to yourself. Its a GOTY contender even without being an action RPG, if it had been, it would have been an instant classic, without doubt. And even you, who wants to tell me what I think and insult me...would still enjoy it if it was.

[WebShaman]

Well, well.



I agreed with the first part of the OP topic. Very nicely written and on the whole, I agree with the sentiment.



The second half (negatives, whatever) are purely subjective opinion. While I can understand and perhaps even sympathize with stated opinion, it does not make it in any way factual.



Truth be told, what the OP finds negative, I find to be even more positive aspects of the game itself. I LOVE micromanagement! I love the tactical and strategic part of the game!



I love being able to determine each action, and I really, really like having a pause function.



Of course, I have been playing Bioware produced games for a long time now, and that is pretty much standard fare. I mean, if the OP wants to relate his opinions on it, fine.



Heh.



Play NWN with the OHS or NWN2, then get back to me on the difficulties of micromanaging a party, or "bad" AI, etc.



Seeing that that is the background that I am coming from, for me, DA is providing an incredible step up from that.



I think that here the PoV from what one is used to is very important in the resulting opinion.



Perhaps the OP should state the second part as purely his subjective opinion. And that would take care of that, at least for me.



But making such statements like "for a human it is too much" yadda yadda yadda, well, that is just not accurate at all. Either that, or I am not human...hehe. Well, perhaps the later is true for the OP, in his opinion, whatever.



For me personally, this game has almost everything that I expect in such a game. I would have given it a solid 10 rating, but spoiled as I am from NWN (MP and DM Client not present), I give it a fantastic 9.8.



GotY, no doubt about it in my mind.