281 réponses à ce sujet

[Iggynous]

SLPr0 wrote...

sypherin wrote...

You have SO got to learn how to use mages.

I'd prefer the mages more or less used themselves efficiently without my intervention unless necessary.

This is the point everyone seems to miss or appears to believe is somehow a fault. That because I don't want to hug my space bar and have every engagement take 20 minutes of micromanagement, I'm somehow....doing it wrong.

This dynamic we're seeing here in DA:O was also in NWN2, and I avoided that title like the plague, after enjoying the original NWN immensely and even doing some Aurora toolset modding on the side for fun.

I don't MIND party members I just don't want to have to MIND THEM or play them as if they were player characters. I want them to do what they're supposed to do, in some cases in DA:O, they do, in many cases, they do not.

If Leilana identifies a trap she should STOP MOVING....if Alistair is down, and Wynne is still alive and has mana she should REVIVE HIM. Theres not even a Tactics condition that allows for Ally = Dead Use = Revive combination....so she won't do it on her own, she can't be told to do it via tactics, you literally have to let go of control of your primary character switch to her and do it yourself, and thats the only way it gets done.

bro, this is the spiritual successor to BG2, not NWN

NWN was about being a single hero, who had lackies occasionally. While i was absolutely in love with BG1&2, NWN did very little for me

this game is about parties of characters that are all as controllable as your own

this game is about micro-management, wonderful micro-management! its brilliant!

thankyou so much for bringing back this RPG game-play BIOWARE, you guys rock serious socks!

[stoicfaux]

I'm going to agree with the OP that the combat system is a drag on the game. (Yes, the storytelling, character development, voice acting, etc. are absolutely amazing and are the reasons why I will be finishing the game in spite of the combat system.)



Couple of Random points:

* Tactics Skill: If you're going to allow us to create scripts to control party members, then give us enough "tactic slots" to do so from the beginning. This having to burn a skill point to add another tactics slot is just weak. Give us the maximum scripting capability from the start. Having to "waste" points on the tactics skill detracts from the game by breaking immersion and adds unnecessary meta-gaming.





* Micromangement sucks. Being able to control every little aspect and having a zillion tactical options in combat sounds great, but it quickly turns into a tedious time sink that detracts from the storytelling. The micromanagement aspect can quickly turn even small fights into a pause-fest which breaks the mood of the game and interrupts the flow of the action. This is an RPG, and an RPG shouldn't belong in the same genre as realistic flight simulator games. (Well, not until we get holodecks.)



Personally, I find the Wizardy series interface to be exceptionally adequate for controlling a multi-character party. It's abstract, allows for giving detailed orders quickly, and still allows for enough tactical depth to keep combat interesting.





* Mage Hero and Leading From the Front - Your main character is a Mage. You spent a lot of time developing that character and as such, have an irrational desire to always have that character active. The problem is that a soft-skinned Mage character shouldn't be out in front when combat begins. So every time you get into combat, you Mage gets pummeled by enemy archers since you're the first one they target. Then you have to either back up (and thus giving up the initiative) or you have to micro-manage the fighters to draw aggro (tedious.) The alternative is to always have a tank character active instead of your Hero Mage. What's the point of getting attached to your Hero if it's less tedious to lead with an NPC fighter instead?



I got so tired of leading with my Mage, that I went back and re-rolled a fighter.





* Minor Quibble About Healing - Would it have killed you all to give Morrigan a heal spell from the beginning? After re-starting the game as a fighter, I was really missing the Heal spell. It took a surprising long while for Morrigan to level up.





* Switchable Hotbars Based on Tactics Roles: If I switch to ranged weapons, my hotbar should switch to archery related skills. Ditto for two handed weapons, sword and shield, etc.. Or at least allows to have multiple hotbars visible so we can better organize skills.





It's still a great game, but the combat system is a definite drag on the RPG aspects.

[r0gue9]

You know, I keep hearing people complain about Leilana switching to melee weapons, and not being able to stop her. She did that for me, too, at first. Then I switched her to Archer preset (on the left) AND Ranged Behavior (on the right) and NEVER had the problem again. She keeps the bow equipped at all times now.



And I've never had Morrigan switch from her staff to attack with melee. EVER.



Either you people are exaggerating, or you really didn't explore the Tactics screen very well at all. I didn't even have to remove her melee weapons from her weapon switch. She still has them equipped, she just doesn't use them because of the way she's set up in the Tactics screen. Tactics really does work guys, you just have to read all of the options and actually think about things once in a while.

[Veracruz]

Hey SLPr0, thank you very much for being able to present "negative feedback" in a proper way. Agree with some points and disagree with the rest but they are already commented so I just wanted to thank you for not falling in Troll Mode.

[MrGOH]

SLPr0 - DA:O does manage to finely balance it's RTSRPG heritage with some action RPG traits - I think it does this very well. First of all, your criticism of the hotbar is not cogent because the hotbar's utility is not affected by the presence of the player's ability to pause; it's simply there so the player doesn't have to search through menus for the tasks s/he wishes to execute.



I appreciate that pause n play may not be your thing, however. But your claim that DA:O is an objectively average game is not supported by your subjective assessment; surely your opinion alone is not determinative of DA:O's objective quality?



Your assessment of the tactics system is confusing. I have beaten the game on hard without ever having a problem with misapplied tactics. I think your Leliana switches over to daggers because you have assigned melee abilities in the tactics menu. At least, that was the issue my melee-loving Leliana had. Second, your criticism of targeting is based on your subjective dislike of switching the view to the overhead mode - is it really that awful to scroll down on the middle mouse button for half a second to get a clear view, click and unpause? I suppose that I generally don't understand how pause n play is bad; sure, the characters may not be animating, but pausing doesn't require you to sit back, stroke your beard or chin and cogitate on various tactical plans. When I play, I'm moving all the time regardless (notice the lack of ir- in front, because "irregardless" is nonsense) of being in pause mode or not. The action is never broken unless I actually need time to plan, which only occurs in a handful of difficult battles. I did keep an eye on each of my characters; the tactics are not meant to be an effective replacement for your control because they cannot deal with positioning your characters.



I found that positioning and the effective use of mages make all the difference in some of the tougher fights. Sure, toss a fireball or storm of the century onto a group of baddies and they will target your mage (seems logical to me) - but that's an opportunity to use some crowd control talents or spells and draw the enemies into a tight group for further AoE attack shenanigans.



I must add my voice to those of other posters in concluding that this game is simply not for you, and your post supports that conclusion well. It doesn't support the conclusion that the game is average or that the combat system is executed poorly.

[r0gue9]

When I play, I'm moving all the time regardless (notice the lack of ir- in front, because "irregardless" is nonsense) of being in pause mode or not.

Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!

This one drives me crazy, as well.  Just like people saying "I could care less" instead of "I couldn't care less."

Just a couple of my pet peeves.  I now return you to your regularly scheduled whine-fest, in progress...

[artmonster1967]

irreguardlessly I could care less



srsly

[Svest]

SLPr0 wrote...

Let me see, oh yes, Abandoned Warehouse...you turn a corner, there are three archers behind a barricade, there are two traps, your options are:

Die from traps cause the person who identified the traps are there just ran through them to attack the archers behind a BARRICADE that they CANNOT reach with their daggers/swords and they will literally STAND in front of the barricade trying to attack the archers while chewing arrows.

Run through the room, enter a room on the left and hide behind the wall and let everyone recover from the trap/arrow damage then move into the room BEHIND the barricade which has 3 times as many targets to deal with, but at this point, no traps at least, but still too many targets to effectively manage even with Wynne healing, especially if shes being attacked because all thoughts of healing anyone but herself ceases until shes no longer being attacked, and by the time you notice this you die.

Do all of the previous, and use every ability at your fingertips to ensure Wynne is not attacked and lose Leilana or Alistair to the massive amount of damage and slowly fight your way through the situation by basically ensuring no enemies can hit your healer....by...backing her into a corner and standing in front of her I guess.

Wooo fun.

SLPr0, I think you really need to spend some time playing with the tactics menu a bit more.  Do not try to use the default tactics sets, they are garbage.  However, it is actually possible to make the AI do a decent job in selecting their abilities (it requires spending a few skill points though).  I play on hard and very rarely micromanage more than one character at once.  I don't always control my main character, I often jump around from one to another, but I don't pause and issue commands to everyone.  If its an especially hard or boss fight I will do a limited amount of micromanaging since they will never be good at positioning themselves and I haven't figured out how to get them to use potions on their own properly yet. 

Your problem with Leilana can be solved, as said by others, by setting her to ranged (this is not where you select archer, scrapper, custom1, etc... its where you select aggressive, defensive, passive, etc.).  If you set her to ranged she will always use a bow.  It is also possible to create a custom set of tactics that causes her to switch back and forth if you want.

Your problem with Wynne only healing herself can be solved as well.  I'm betting you are using the default healer script.  If you notice the first tactic line there tells her to heal herself if she is under 90% health.  That makes it her number one priority.  If you don't want that to be the case either move it down the list a bit or change it to less than 90% so she takes a bit of damage before being worried about healing herself.

To address your above situation I would hit h to tell everyone to hold around the corner.  Take control of Leilana stealth around the corner, find and disarm the traps, run back, take control of my mage, and run in guns blazing.  See how much those archers like standing behind that barricade in a firestorm.  If you never want to have to take control of a party member besides your main character, then I can only say I'm sorry you bought the wrong game.  However, you can still get an action fix if you want to play that way.

Modifié par Svest, 07 novembre 2009 - 04:41 .

[Dauphin2]

Funny, I care not a bit what my other party members are doing, or what weapons they choose, as long as they *kill things*. Truth be told, I'm finding Normal difficulty to be too easy, as i've yet to die even once. Just sounds like someone who is a bad game player whining.

[Oliver Sudden]

I guess I can see the OP's complaints, but since I've been using the space bar to pause combat for years having to do so in this game feels natural and adds to the way I like to play. When it's an easy fight and my "assistance" isn't needed, the battles may as well be cutscene cinematics. I don't get much fun out of just watching some fight happen.

[TheWabbit]

I'm with the original poster on his opinion for the most part.



The game flow of KOTOR was much much better. Good enemy scaling kept the game moving and the story engaging.

The party mechanics of NWN and NWN2 (when finally patched) are better. The other characters can do what they should without a tactics screen.

The combat tactics of Mount & Blade are FAR superior to this.



The storyline is fantastic but the game mechanics really detract from the game. Micromanagement from the tactics screen is pure laziness.



I really hope this is not the same team building the The Old Republic engine.

[Gvaz]

I read the OP and for the most part he's right. However, your hotbar is just to use abilities. Basically you auto attack and only use abilities when you need to use htem, such as CC, healing, stunning, aggro. Don't just let everything fly at once.



I agree with herbalism being dumb because of the small amount of resources, I agree about lockpicking being dumb, I was in the mage tower with 3 points in lock picking and like 20~ cunning, and only 1 chest I couldn't pick, for some reason that one chest had a skill requirement way over all the others in the building (the templar quarter).



Tactics are trash, I'll agree with that. Most of the time you can't let them do their own thing because they're retarded.



Fights should be easier, and bosses should be harder. Currently, the inverse is true.

[DragonRageGT]

Sorry, didn't read all replies after that looong OP... so this may repeat what someone might have said and I'll say just about this mistake but there are others in the OP...



Leliana with defined tactics and RANGED behavior has never one switched her bow to a melee weapon in my game and she does have the dagger. Reminds me of my AA in NWN with cool Point Blank Shot feat and she's pretty good at it too!

[sidion77]

Yeah I found the tactics and AI to be rather intelligent if you appreciate its limitations. I set the tactics realizing these are priorities and at times I do have to pause. I don't do it often as my AI seems pretty capable of handling themselves. Also my tactics must be broken because leiliana has a bow and dual wields and she sticks with the bow when I set her to RANGED...she only switches to melee when I forced her to or I've set one of the other custom tactic presets.

Otherwise spamming all my skills is a good idea when I'm switching between mobs, or tanking one elite/boss otherwise I use them sparingly and it seems to work for me.

[VernRyan]

SLPr0 wrote...

EvilDruidNE wrote...

well i skimmed that wall of text but you are missing the upper right section of your tactics area on Leilanna you just need to click the dropdown and select "Ranged" and she will never not use a bow unless you make her

I set her to Archer in her tactics. With the drop down menu.

If she has daggers or swords equipped, she will abandon the archer role and join melee.

Like he said you have to go over to the right look for the behavior drop down.  If it's set to ranged she will stay back and fire arrows. If it's set to default or aggresive she barrels in and attacks hand to hand.

[Sylixe]

I am going to sum up the OP's post so people can understand it more.

"Wah..why isn't this World of Warcraft where i can just have my cool shiny's handed to me". 

If you cannot understand what an RPG is and why so much micro is a good thing than just leave the game.  People like you destroyed the MMO genre of games with your instant gratification needs.  These games are meant to take time and you are meant to explore them for the enjoyment of the story.  Everything else is secondary to the PLOT of the game.

Difficult?  Uhm the game isn't that hard if you know how to manage your skills and abilities correctly.  The AI setting are WAY better than you are letting on.  I have never had an issue with a range character in any of the combats in game.  I will say that the bosses are a tad to easy at times.  Group encounters though i think are spot on.  They aren't presented to you as just something to kill and gather loot from.  They are genuine encounters that require some thought to approach them.  When you conquer said encounters you feel like you have really accomplished something.  The main reason people think they are to hard is that a generation of gamers has been removed from "Difficult" rpg games.  It's the "WoW effect rippling down to these gamers who don't know how to cope with a game that requires you to do more than point-----> Click----> Collect your loot.

Give it another year or so and you'll have your new shiny Diablo and Starcraft to grind through and hack and slash mindlessly while pounding health pots and using no strategy to do any of the content.  I have no doubt both titles will be a comercial success because the amount of laziness out there now in players is far greater than the players who remember what a great story was like.

My gripe with the game is poor launch planning and how the patching is being done.  This is damn near 2010 and I could do a better job from home coordinating how they are releasing the content.  This is a monster company with huge resources and NOBODY tested the patch release?  They cannot say they didn't know people weren't going to tax their servers for download content on release.  They needed some reserves setup to handle the huge demand at launch.

Modifié par Sylixe, 07 novembre 2009 - 05:44 .

[boba1974]

Considering the OP has tried to skew any post that disagrees with him as "marginalizing" him it's clear he doesn't want to address the rebuttals of his criticism.

First off the presence of a "hotbar" does not scream "action rpg" and never has. The fact that he thinks this clearly shows hasn't been playing game's in the genre long, and certainly not long enough to play the games which this game has roots in, the Baldur's Gate series. It doesn't matter how many times he glosses over this fact it's the truth.

Also, what exactly is an RTSRPG? The only game i can think of that comes close to this moniker is Warcraft 3. Fallout 1 & 2 had no RTS in them whatsoever, and X-Com wasn't RT nor was it RPG, it was turn-based strategy! If you are going to use these terms at least know what they mean.

He was clearly looking for an action rpg and picked the wrong game. Instead of accepting his bad decision he wants to blame the game instead. Contrary to what he thinks, the vast majority of old school Bioware fans have been waiting for a game like this for nearly a decade.

His complaints are the equivalent of someone buying the original Rainbow Six and complaining it's not like Halo. Yes, Dragon Age is a party based rpg that requires micro-management...duh! If you want an action rpg, buy an action rpg, but don't order a steak and then complain to the chef that it tastes like steak.
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[Flight]

Sylixe wrote...

I am going to sum up the OP's post so people can understand it more.

"Wah..why isn't this World of Warcraft where i can just have my cool shiny's handed to me". 

Difficult?  Uhm the game isn't that hard if you know how to manage your skills and abilities correctly.  The AI setting are WAY better than you are letting on.

That's unfair and a childish representation of the OP. He said nothing of the sort. You might notice Bioware made major changes to the difficulty settings yesterday because it was too hard.


The OP has some really good points. But the thread title is wrong and he is paying for that in the responses he is getting from fans. Fair enough.

[Niten Ryu]

Don't mind the fanbois in here OP. I agree with you on several issues. Personally I don't understand why Tactics were included to leveling mechanics, as they should have been pure AI mechanic. Unlimited AI mechanic. It would have been possible to build complex AI routines and NPCs could have done 95% of the stuff without players interaction.



Stamina issue is bad because it favours mages (who are OP anyway). I'm playing on hard and I had full melee group till about level 8. Game was really challencing (my dwarven commoner rogue, redhead rogue, templar tank and dog). I kinda enjoyed it and I had few wipes here and there. Especially with boss fights and/or larger pulls. But once I got Wynne, it felt like different game. So much easier. With Morrigan and Wynne you feel like you're playing kids game (thanks to cheesy mechanics like earthquake + grease / fire). All this while my rogue lose 1 vs.1 battles if I don't use health potion. Stamina is drained so fast (in light armor) and I see auto attacks pitifully chip mobs health away.

[allothernamesweretaken]

SLPr0 wrote... without moving into "tactical view" (archaic throwbacks for the win) or ah ha...hitting pause again.

This is where you lost all credibility

[Gvaz]

Flight wrote...

That's unfair and a childish representation of the OP. He said nothing of the sort. You might notice Bioware made major changes to the difficulty settings yesterday because it was too hard.

Wow fans are also childish and say the same thing to other wow players. You can like both you know!

[mufuti7]

I am honestly unable to understand why ever other moron feels the need to post his review in these forums, wasting precious forum space and his own life time.

No problem here with posting in an existing thread for discussion about the game, exchanging opinions about what works, what doesnt. this needs to be done if only for developer feedback.



But why do you guys feel the need to post your personal subjective review in a new topic here like anybody who owns the game really cares?

It is pathetic quite frankly and makes you look extremely dorky.

I choose this thread to comment because the OP really hit the jackpot, seriously, I feel for you.

But there are dozens of your type.



That being said - 9.5/10 Holy crap! what a game. I am literally blown away.

[artmonster1967]

Flight wrote......

You might notice Bioware made major changes to the difficulty settings yesterday because it was too hard.

Let me fix that for you: 

there are people too stupid to figure out how to play the game and "yet again" they fell back onto the oh-so-easy nerdrage footstomping and internetz self-rightiousness ( suprise suprise with American mentalities today )..... therefore Bioware decided to hold the gametards' hands.....and gently guide them through playland.

[Postponderance]

 I think this is just a problem of expectations. You go into the game expecting it to be one thing, but it turns out to be another, and so are disappointed. I don't think this makes the game average; it might be an average action RPG in terms of gameplay, but it's an exceptional RTSRPG.

Also, except for particularly challenging fights, I spend most of the time controlling a single character - I find that, properly arranged, the various tactics for characters can cover most of what needs to be done, and while occasionally the party will do something incredibly stupid, these times are far enough apart from each other that I don't feel the need to constantly switch between all my characters to tell them their every move. (That was a hell of a run-on sentence...whoops.) 

[The-Cyber-Dave]

I don't think I agreed with a single thing the original poster wrote. I mean, its fine. Its his perspective. But all he basically said is "I don't like BG 1 & 2 style games." Ok. That is fine and all. But I do. This game is amazing! I am happy it works the way it does! Consider me a completely anti-thetical position to the original poster. Except for one thing: I also find it really anoying that if you give an NPC two weapon sets, they always grab their melee ranged wepon set, even if most of their talents are in ranged weapons, and they have no reason to pull out melee weapons. 

Modifié par The-Cyber-Dave, 07 novembre 2009 - 06:21 .