74 réponses à ce sujet

[DaveTheJackal]

EDITED FOR CLARITY (hopefully!)

At the moment we SEEM to have conversations based on the higher of either Renegade/Paragon. This tends to push players towards trying to choose responses of one sort so they get better response options.

How about (for ME3) a third type of unlockable bonus option, I call it 'balance', which is based on the lower of the two, thus rewarding players who choose a balanced path through the game?

(Yes, I know there are already 'normal' middle road options but they receive no bonus and are not 'bonus' options).

Of course, unless they want to make it a very difficult option to get, the thresholds for such options should be lower than for other options, but it'd still be nice and make winning gameplay options more varied.

E.g. If the straight Rene/Para bonus options have thresholds of 20 in Rene/Para respectively, the bonus option for the 'middle road' might have a threshold of 10, based on the lower of Rene/Para.

The reward to choosing such and 'normal' middle road options would be a boost to the lower of the two sides of the character or fixed bonuses to each side, about half those given for choosing one of the extremes, for example.

e.g. Rene option gives a bonus of +3 to rene, para gives +3 para, middle road gives +2 rene, +1 para (reflecting a middle road option more angled toward renegade, in this case).

This would also give a bonus for players who mix rene and para responses, depending on the situation, since they are more likely to have average scores in the two character sides.

Of course, many of these concerns if ME3 went back to the old skills based Rene/Para system, but I like the way ME2's system works!

Modifié par DaveTheJackal, 25 février 2010 - 10:53 .

[Jazharah]

I did think of something similar as well. What I'd like see is 'balanced' persuasion-conversation options that are based on the sum of your paragon/renegade points, and that give an equal amount to both scores.

Of course, this option would be purple in the conversation wheel.

Oh, and while we're at it, let's toss in a pink option as well to define flirty comments that lead to love interests. Not so much to be able to pick them, but to avoid them. (Jacob LI, anyone?)

[DaveTheJackal]

I'd also like to express concern about some of the convo choices in ME2. In ME1 the dividing line was more or less Renegade = Conservative (dirty harry) and Paragon = Liberal (Jean Luc Picard), some of the choices in ME2 felt more like Renegade = 'Evil', Paragon = 'Good'. E.g. avenging the death of others in favour of the logical choice, I'd have firmly put in the Renegade category, where frequently in ME2, because it was a 'Good' action, it was a Paragon choice.

[DaveTheJackal]

Jazharah wrote...

I did think of something similar as well. What I'd like see is 'balanced' persuasion-conversation options that are based on the sum of your paragon/renegade points, and that give an equal amount to both scores.
Of course, this option would be purple in the conversation wheel.
Oh, and while we're at it, let's toss in a pink option as well to define flirty comments that lead to love interests. Not so much to be able to pick them, but to avoid them. (Jacob LI, anyone?)

That's what came to my mind at first as well. The only problem with taking the sum or average is that someone with High in one category and low in the other is still rewarded, so pursuing the same old strategy becomes a win-win scenario.
Hence this suggestiion, which rewards balance.

Modifié par DaveTheJackal, 20 février 2010 - 11:39 .

[Dethateer]

Or, how about Bioware brings back skill-point based Charm/Intimidate?

[grayfox4000]

DaveTheJackal wrote...

At the moment we SEEM to have conversations based on the higher of either Renegade/Paragon. This tends to push players towards trying to choose responses of one sort so they get better response options.

How about (for ME3) a third type of option, I call it 'balance', which is based on the lower of the two, thus rewarding players who choose a balanced path through the game?

The reward to choosing such options would be a boost to the lower of the two sides of the character.

Of course, unless they want to make it a very difficult option to get, the thresholds for such options should be lower than for other options, but it'd still be nice and make winning gameplay options more varied.

The middle responce in all of the 1st 2 games is always going to get you ren and par
points at the same time. Its the middle ground of the responces or atleast most of the time other then the leave option there are times when you can pick a middle ground responce.

[FlintlockJazz]

Actually, that sounds too complicated, plus there are other problems that I won't go into, it'd be okay but instead I'd prefer it if they weighted the Paragon/Renegade options differently so that one choice would work better than the other in given situations. For instance, intimidating a couple of thugs who are about to shoot you to back down would probably take less effort than taking the longer route of explaining things to them by which point they'd probably already started firing anyway, so you only need a few Renegade points for the Renegade option but alot of Paragon points for the Paragon option. This not only would be more realistic, but it would require players to put a bit more thought into it, especially if they could still choose the option and fail, requiring them to take into account the current situation!

Just my thoughts anyway, and as to bring back the charm/intimidate skills? Paragon/Renegade points are effectively social xp, and are automatically spent on the side that you are most using, since why should a guy who is never nasty to anyone be able to be mean just by spending arbitrary points? If you are constantly acting one way, then you are more practiced at doing it that way, that's how I see it anyway.

Jazharah wrote...

Oh, and while we're at it, let's toss
in a pink option as well to define flirty comments that lead to love
interests. Not so much to be able to pick them, but to avoid them.
(Jacob LI, anyone?)

Oh yes, so very yes!

Modifié par FlintlockJazz, 20 février 2010 - 11:56 .

[Terror_K]

I personally think that Paragon and Renegade shouldn't always be ultimate win options, and that whether you succeed and what happens should depend more on the situation and who you're dealing with. There also needs to me more cases where a Paragon choice bites you in the ass (i.e. somebody takes advantage of your good nature and you find out later they duped you, or by being nice and letting a criminal live they cause more problems later that a Renegade choice would have prevented, etc).



There needs to be situations where, for example, trying a Paragon choice with a krogan bounty hunter simply fails because they see you as weak and unconvincing, while a Renegade option would show the krogan you're strong and grant you respect, and thus earn the reward. On the other side of things you could have a scared individual who would completely close themselves off to a Renegade threat and see the person as a bully, and only an understanding Paragon would get through to them and gain the information and/or reward they have. This shouldn't happen all the time of course, but there should be at least a few situations where only the one type of character will be able to get the best outcome. It would make the universe feel more real and encourage players to go through the game multiple times to get all the outcomes, or spend more time and effort building a better character if they want to be able to tackle both sides of the Persuasion tree.



Another thing I'd like to see is a third dialogue related to your class. An adept or vanguard could maybe resolve a situation with a knowledge of biotics, same with the tech and soldier skills. The only real issue I see here is that multi-class classes will have a greater advantage during these situations than pure class characters, though this could be solved if one had to choose a speciality knowledge subject first (i.e. Vangaurds choose either Biotic or Soldier knowledge, not both) or if the pure classes didn't need as much points invested to succeed their particular dialogue options.

[DaveTheJackal]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Actually, that sounds too complicated, plus there are other problems that I won't go into, it'd be okay but instead I'd prefer it if they weighted the Paragon/Renegade options differently so that one choice would work better than the other in given situations. For instance, intimidating a couple of thugs who are about to shoot you to back down would probably take less effort than taking the longer route of explaining things to them by which point they'd probably already started firing anyway, so you only need a few Renegade points for the Renegade option but alot of Paragon points for the Paragon option. This not only would be more realistic, but it would require players to put a bit more thought into it, especially if they could still choose the option and fail, requiring them to take into account the current situation!

Just my thoughts anyway, and as to bring back the charm/intimidate skills? Paragon/Renegade points are effectively social xp, and are automatically spent on the side that you are most using, since why should a guy who is never nasty to anyone be able to be mean just by spending arbitrary points? If you are constantly acting one way, then you are more practiced at doing it that way, that's how I see it anyway.

Jazharah wrote...

Oh, and while we're at it, let's toss
in a pink option as well to define flirty comments that lead to love
interests. Not so much to be able to pick them, but to avoid them.
(Jacob LI, anyone?)

Oh yes, so very yes!

So taking the lowest is complicated where as a weighting formula is easy?

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Actually, that sounds too complicated, plus there are other problems that I won't go into, it'd be okay but instead I'd prefer it if they weighted the Paragon/Renegade options differently so that one choice would work better than the other in given situations. For instance, intimidating a couple of thugs who are about to shoot you to back down would probably take less effort than taking the longer route of explaining things to them by which point they'd probably already started firing anyway, so you only need a few Renegade points for the Renegade option but alot of Paragon points for the Paragon option. This not only would be more realistic, but it would require players to put a bit more thought into it, especially if they could still choose the option and fail, requiring them to take into account the current situation!

Just my thoughts anyway, and as to bring back the charm/intimidate skills? Paragon/Renegade points are effectively social xp, and are automatically spent on the side that you are most using, since why should a guy who is never nasty to anyone be able to be mean just by spending arbitrary points? If you are constantly acting one way, then you are more practiced at doing it that way, that's how I see it anyway.

Jazharah wrote...

Oh, and while we're at it, let's toss
in a pink option as well to define flirty comments that lead to love
interests. Not so much to be able to pick them, but to avoid them.
(Jacob LI, anyone?)

Oh yes, so very yes!

True there are middle path options, but no bonus middle path options. i.e. generally middle path = fail because it doesn't unlock renegade or paragon choices.

Dethateer wrote...

Or, how about Bioware brings back skill-point based Charm/Intimidate?

Didn't make sense to me, why would someone who chooses the mealy mouthed liberal option be a 'renegade'?

grayfox4000 wrote...

The middle responce in all of the 1st 2 games is always going to get you ren and par
points
at the same time. Its the middle ground of the responces or atleast
most of the time other then the leave option there are times when you
can pick a middle ground responce.

Good idea, a smaller bonus but a bonus nontheless.

Modifié par DaveTheJackal, 20 février 2010 - 12:40 .

[DaveTheJackal]

Terror_K wrote...


Another thing I'd like to see is a third dialogue related to your class. An adept or vanguard could maybe resolve a situation with a knowledge of biotics, same with the tech and soldier skills. The only real issue I see here is that multi-class classes will have a greater advantage during these situations than pure class characters, though this could be solved if one had to choose a speciality knowledge subject first (i.e. Vangaurds choose either Biotic or Soldier knowledge, not both) or if the pure classes didn't need as much points invested to succeed their particular dialogue options.

Good points.

[Homebound]

Dethateer wrote...

Or, how about Bioware brings back skill-point based Charm/Intimidate?

Whats the point? Most players will just ignore it and dump all their stats into a specific build.  At least thats my understanding of how RPG leveling systems work.

[Big_Stupid_Jelly]

Just_mike wrote...

Dethateer wrote...

Or, how about Bioware brings back skill-point based Charm/Intimidate?

Whats the point? Most players will just ignore it and dump all their stats into a specific build.  At least thats my understanding of how RPG leveling systems work.

The beauty of ME1 was that you could max out your charm and intimidate skills during your 2nd playthrough, or at least I do, making sure you never have the situation with greyed out convo options, which would basically limit your enjoyment of the game.

The way ME2 does it, or seems to do it, this happens frequently.

[General9999]

There is renegade paragon neutral

when there is a dialogue you can choose in the right side 3 lines

first one is paragon

middle one is neutral

last is renegade

[Big_Stupid_Jelly]

General9999 wrote...

There is renegade paragon neutral
when there is a dialogue you can choose in the right side 3 lines
first one is paragon
middle one is neutral
last is renegade

I'm not sure if you're replying to me, if you are i'm on about the blue and red options on the left hand side.

[DaveTheJackal]

Indeed, I don't think he read the OP, this is about a 'green' neutral response on the left of the wheel.

[Toxik King]

That would make no sense.

So lets say two people are having a fight, you could resolve it with Paragon (Charm) or Renegade (Intimidate), which makes sense.
But then, you say "Hey, I'm nuetral" and get Renegade points because you have more Paragon...
If I'm wrong, I'm sorry, but this is what I got from the OP.

[Dr. rotinaj]

Dethateer wrote...

Or, how about Bioware brings back skill-point based Charm/Intimidate?

This, but merge Charm and Intimidate into a "Persuasion" skill and be able to decide between a Charm option and an Intimidate option during the conversation.

[Inarai]

Just_mike wrote...

Dethateer wrote...

Or, how about Bioware brings back skill-point based Charm/Intimidate?

Whats the point? Most players will just ignore it and dump all their stats into a specific build.  At least thats my understanding of how RPG leveling systems work.

... Sorta.  Charm and Intimidate are essential abilities, so players would need to put points there too, or a lot is locked off from them.

Dr. rotinaj wrote...

Dethateer wrote...

Or, how about Bioware brings back skill-point based Charm/Intimidate?

This,
but merge Charm and Intimidate into a "Persuasion" skill and be able to
decide between a Charm option and an Intimidate option during the
conversation.

I'd say it's better requiring on or the other.

Modifié par Inarai, 21 février 2010 - 12:00 .

[Nautica773]

Dethateer wrote...

Or, how about Bioware brings back skill-point based Charm/Intimidate?

Yes!

And axe the alignment system while they're at it.

[Dr. rotinaj]

Terror_K wrote...

I personally think that Paragon and Renegade shouldn't always be ultimate win options, and that whether you succeed and what happens should depend more on the situation and who you're dealing with. There also needs to me more cases where a Paragon choice bites you in the ass (i.e. somebody takes advantage of your good nature and you find out later they duped you, or by being nice and letting a criminal live they cause more problems later that a Renegade choice would have prevented, etc). .....

.....Another thing I'd like to see is a third dialogue related to your class. An adept or vanguard could maybe resolve a situation with a knowledge of biotics, same with the tech and soldier skills. The only real issue I see here is that multi-class classes will have a greater advantage during these situations than pure class characters, though this could be solved if one had to choose a speciality knowledge subject first (i.e. Vangaurds choose either Biotic or Soldier knowledge, not both) or if the pure classes didn't need as much points invested to succeed their particular dialogue options.

If implemented in ME3, awesome ideas like these would greatly increase replay value.

[Inarai]

Nautica773 wrote...

Dethateer wrote...

Or, how about Bioware brings back skill-point based Charm/Intimidate?

Yes!

And axe the alignment system while they're at it.

So, dismantle smething essential to how they designed/present the game?  Alignment absence is not always to right call.  Now, binary systems annoy me, but, Shepard is assumed-good.  Paragon/renegade represents 2 different approaches to this.

[Halfheart]

Inarai wrote...

Nautica773 wrote...

Dethateer wrote...

Or, how about Bioware brings back skill-point based Charm/Intimidate?

Yes!

And axe the alignment system while they're at it.

So, dismantle smething essential to how they designed/present the game?  Alignment absence is not always to right call.  Now, binary systems annoy me, but, Shepard is assumed-good.  Paragon/renegade represents 2 different approaches to this.

I think this idea has some merit... but instead of totally axing alignment, bring back charm/intimidate skill trees and allow the player to fill in both sides regardless of alignment. Alignment will still measure how paragon/renegade you are, but it allows the player more choices in his conversations without forcing him to specialize in one of the other, or not be able to pull off the big persuasions.

Modifié par Halfheart, 21 février 2010 - 12:18 .

[Inarai]

Halfheart wrote...

Inarai wrote...

Nautica773 wrote...

Dethateer wrote...

Or, how about Bioware brings back skill-point based Charm/Intimidate?

Yes!

And axe the alignment system while they're at it.

So, dismantle smething essential to how they designed/present the game?  Alignment absence is not always to right call.  Now, binary systems annoy me, but, Shepard is assumed-good.  Paragon/renegade represents 2 different approaches to this.

I think this idea has some merit... but instead of totally axing alignment, bring back charm/intimidate skill trees and allow the player to fill in both sides regardless of alignment. Alignment will still measure how paragon/renegade you are, but it allows the player more choices in his conversations without forcing him to specialize in one of the other, or not be able to pull off the big persuasions.

I think the major ones should need some alignment, anyways, but just the major ones - like what you get at the end of ME1, for example, or with Wrex on Virmire.  Not to the point that you have to go dedicated, but, to such a point where you may have needed to do a few extra side quests.

[Halfheart]

Inarai wrote...

I think the major ones should need some alignment, anyways, but just the major ones - like what you get at the end of ME1, for example, or with Wrex on Virmire.  Not to the point that you have to go dedicated, but, to such a point where you may have needed to do a few extra side quests.

That's a good point, and I believe you are right. The most extreme and hardest decision should probably be based off both you rank in the skill, and your alignment.

[Nautica773]

Inarai wrote...
So, dismantle something essential to how they designed/present the game?  Alignment absence is not always to right call.  Now, binary systems annoy me, but, Shepard is assumed-good.  Paragon/renegade represents 2 different approaches to this.

Except that the alignments don't affect anything (save your conversation skills in ridiculously arbitrary fashions).

While I doubt they'll remove the system all together in the third, I do hope that it can be cut from any further games in the franchise. Paragon/Renegade really don't mean anything save for creating stark contrasts between reactions for the sake of extremes.

And while the interrupts were interesting, I feel that they were hindered by the alignment system. When an option for an interrupt came up, you only had the alignment reward to suggest to you what your interrupt would be, taking away even more control from the player in their ability to play as Commander Shepard. The dialogue wheel was bad enough, but the interrupts are making social interactions even more obtuse.

Not to mention most of the alignment choices are your typical "give baddie a hug and long speech about redemption" vs "shoot baddie in the face then kick a nearby puppy for good measure."