74 réponses à ce sujet

[FlintlockJazz]

DaveTheJackal wrote...

poisonoustea wrote...

Not everyone's like that though. Many people go for what works: passive with a crying child, forceful with a Krogan. Intelligent decisions should be rewarded as much as characateur.

Uhm, it's not like the game prevents you from doing that. As far as I can tell, I was still able to headbutt that Krogan on Tuchanka, AND talk it out with the Batia Frontiers lady on Ilium. I'm not saying that Shepard should go one way or another for all his career; it's just that it's hard to have the guts to make big choices if you don't believe fully in your modus operandi, or if you're not accustomed to it. I think the game flows well in this aspect; what's wrong is that some of the dialogue lines are not intelligent enough: back on Mordin's mission, he explains everything about the Genophage, why it's done. Mordin has a lot of demons haunting him, still you don't get a chance to tell him "Mordin, you're a good man. I'm glad someone like you had to take such a decision."
You can only say "Oh you're so evil!" or "Genophage FTW, Kroganz r n00bz". This is what bothers me the most... I mean, Shepard must be an hero, must take hard decisions etc. But sure as hell he shouldn't be able to change the Galaxy if he's not acting smart, especially if he's going the Paragon way.

Currently, the game prevents you from doing this AND unlocking special convo options.

If ME3 is going to have convo based Ren/Par points and if they are going to have unlockable options then it would be nice if players who choose a varied/middle path were rewarded like everyone else.

Get it now?

I agree that many of the options were a bit off, but I'm sure I got the opportunity to tell Mordin he'd done the right thing at some point. Besides that's an entirely different issue. It's not a case of either or. Start a thread about it, if it concerns you so much.

Actually it doesn't, you can headbutt that guy on Tuchanka regardless of your Pa/Ren scores, and while it gets you ren points it doesn't cost you Paragon points.  Remember, doing renegade options don't count against Paragon or vice versa, they are separate bars not the one we normally get in RPGs.

[DaveTheJackal]

What? So, I don't have the renegade points from previously taking renegade actions I can now take special renegade actions/conco options? Is this in the patch? I think not ...

Even though my Para score is not going to be reduced, it is not increased. Since I need a high para score to do para actions I am effectively being penalised by taking the occasional Renegade option.

By adding a third option, based on lower thresholds for the lower of the two Rene/Para scores, it gives some possibility for varied play styles. By adding smaller bonuses to both Rene and Para when a middle road standard option when we select it, we avoid penalising similar players as second time.

Modifié par DaveTheJackal, 23 février 2010 - 01:31 .

[DaveTheJackal]

Edited the OP to be more explicit about what I mean.

[FlintlockJazz]

DaveTheJackal wrote...

What? So, I don't have the renegade points from previously taking renegade actions I can now take special renegade actions/conco options? Is this in the patch? I think not ...

Even though my Para score is not going to be reduced, it is not increased. Since I need a high para score to do para actions I am effectively being penalised by taking the occasional Renegade option.

By adding a third option, based on lower thresholds for the lower of the two Rene/Para scores, it gives some possibility for varied play styles. By adding smaller bonuses to both Rene and Para when a middle road standard option when we select it, we avoid penalising similar players as second time.

Um, yes you can take renegade special actions like headbutting the guy without the renegade points, my paragons do it all the time.  No patch required.

Sure your paragon score is not increased, but it wouldn't be increased anyway, and there are plenty of options available to max out your paragon score regardless if you are going to doing the occasional renegade action.

Modifié par FlintlockJazz, 23 février 2010 - 02:08 .

[DaveTheJackal]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

DaveTheJackal wrote...

What? So, I don't have the renegade points from previously taking renegade actions I can now take special renegade actions/conco options? Is this in the patch? I think not ...

Even though my Para score is not going to be reduced, it is not increased. Since I need a high para score to do para actions I am effectively being penalised by taking the occasional Renegade option.

By adding a third option, based on lower thresholds for the lower of the two Rene/Para scores, it gives some possibility for varied play styles. By adding smaller bonuses to both Rene and Para when a middle road standard option when we select it, we avoid penalising similar players as second time.

Um, yes you can take renegade special actions like headbutting the guy without the renegade points, my paragons do it all the time.  No patch required.

Sure your paragon score is not increased, but it wouldn't be increased anyway, and there are plenty of options available to max out your paragon score regardless if you are going to doing the occasional renegade action.

Indeed, so we agree. Paragon players will be penalized for taking renegade actions, and have to take paragon options just to max out their score and get later bonus convos. Great!

Modifié par DaveTheJackal, 23 février 2010 - 02:25 .

[DaveTheJackal]

poisonoustea wrote...

Paragon players will be penalized for taking renegade actions, and have to take paragon options just to max out their score and get later bonus convos.

Sorry to be picky, but Paragon player = takes Paragon choices. You don't take Paragon choices, you're not playing Paragon. Renegade actions don't lower your Paragon score so... I can't see the problem.

Sure, if you want to be a ridiculous parody of a characatuer, the current system works.

Sorry to be lazy but:

DaveTheJackal wrote...

What? So, I don't have the
renegade points from previously taking renegade actions I can now take
special renegade actions/conco options? Is this in the patch? I think
not ...

Even though my Para score is not going to be reduced, it
is not increased. Since I need a high para score to do para actions I
am effectively being penalised by taking the occasional Renegade option.

By adding a third option, based on lower thresholds for the lower of the
two Rene/Para scores, it gives some possibility for varied play styles.
By adding smaller bonuses to both Rene and Para when a middle road
standard option when we select it, we avoid penalising similar players
as second time.

i.e. we're adding bonuses for a third (more relalistic) playstyle.

Try reading some more of my previous points and you might find yourself saying something original.

Modifié par DaveTheJackal, 23 février 2010 - 11:28 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

poisonoustea wrote...
Uhm, just because I don't see it the same way it doesn't mean I'm not getting it.
I think the new Paragon/Renegade system is better than its only viable alternative, which is it being point-based. Actually, I like the fact that you can't ensure you're getting all the dialogue options just because you're spending stats on 'em. I think it's more realistic to develop the character's path in terms of coherence, which is often overlooked in RPGs.

I like the fact that the 'middle way' doesn't reward the player. As I said before, it's an epic game. You have two types of modus operandi which fill the gaps quite well and allow you to progress in building up a character, who's got a well-defined personality one way or the other.

It's stil lforced and feel artificial.

Why have conversation optiosn linked to my Renagade/Paragon score at all? It makes no sense. It's not like agreesive individuals can't also be smooth talkers and pacifists can't dish out a huge amount of pain if provoked.

A system like this is limiting since it encourages you to follow one route or another strictly, even if it's against your character.

It just needs to be dropped completely. You shouldn't even be thinking about your paragon/renagade score while you're playing. There should be no paragon/renagade score.

Remember, doing renegade options don't count against Paragon or vice
versa, they are separate bars not the one we normally get in RPGs.

Actually doing renegade action costs you paragon points, since your'e not getting paragon points you would have gotten if you took the paragon action.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 24 février 2010 - 11:30 .

[addiction21]

Red + Blue = Purple

I like that idea.

[DaveTheJackal]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


It just needs to be dropped completely. You shouldn't even be thinking about your paragon/renagade score while you're playing. There should be no paragon/renagade score.

I can see what you mean but I think it adds to gameplay. What we lose in perceived realism, we in replay value/acheivements. It's good that one play through I can make one set of decisions which make the story develop in one way (and makes it easier to track) and then I can go through again with different choices which allow new options. Though it would be nice if these were reflected more in terms of game events, rather than just Ren/Para points.

If characters recurred more, killing someone might mean they're not available later or may return to attack you. E.g. Zaeed's nemesis (though he may return in ME3).

About the only consequence that seems to occur in ME3 is that you occasionally meet a character you let live who thanks you or get flak for killing someone from your superiors.

Even when you make a decision that should infuence things they always seem to find a way round it. e.g. though I destroyed the collector ship in ME2 I suspect someone will find a fragment of it with almost the same consequencs as if I'd kept it.

One contraint on this sort of thing, as far as bioware are concerned, has to be the diskless xbox. Where as the PC/PS3 would have no problem accomodating the extra data required, the xbox would have problems. The extra Zaeed mission would have required one other short mission to have been abandoned. I can see it taking at least as much space as a few of the very short planet scanning missions (which would have been no bad thing) but that's just adding consequences for 1 game decision ...

I think the best game I've played in terms of 'real decisions with real consequences has to be Deus Ex 1. Several decisions lead to whole plot segments being included/excluded from playthroughs.

Modifié par DaveTheJackal, 24 février 2010 - 01:22 .

[DaveTheJackal]

Deleted due to poster requiring a brain transplant.

Modifié par DaveTheJackal, 24 février 2010 - 01:19 .

[RighteousRage]

All of the responses should be color-coded, haha. Purple for the middle-of-the-road paragon/renegade option, pink for flirtation, white for investigation that doesn't move the conversation forward, orange or some other shade of yellow for investigation that does move the conversation forward, red for renegade, blue for paragon.

Modifié par RighteousRage, 24 février 2010 - 01:21 .

[DaveTheJackal]

RighteousRage wrote...

All of the responses should be color-coded, haha. Purple for the middle-of-the-road paragon/renegade option, pink for flirtation, white for investigation that doesn't move the conversation forward, orange or some other shade of yellow for investigation that does move the conversation forward, red for renegade, blue for paragon.

Heh, regarding the yellow, I'd also like a 'full investigation' option, where it runs through all the investigations, only pausing where there's something you can say that will alter what comes next.

[Orfinn]

Agreed and yes the middle road should be Purple. Blue mixed with Red, kinda obvious ^^

Modifié par Orfinn, 24 février 2010 - 01:48 .

[LF1M_Tank]

I think some people may be missing the purpose of this proposed "third option" and that is to create (or option to) a Shepard that is more grey/morally ambiguous/three dimensional than what is currently offered in ME2, similar to what was possible in ME1. For being advertised as having more morally ambiguous choices and such compared to ME1, I personally found myself being forced to play my Shepard in a very black or white way. Because persuasion is linked to morality, in order to pass any of the charm/intimdate checks (blue or red options on the left) you pretty much had to stick with one of either paragon or renegade speech options (upper or lower right white options respectively) during normal dialogue. This is especially true if you wanted to pass the harder checks. You are entirely free to mix and match as you see fit but as has been stated, this costs you valuable persuassion points and essentially screws you over in the long run. Some people may argue that's the penalty for doing so, I disagree, I mean playing a personality how you want in an RPG? No way... *rolls eyes*.

I want my Shepard to be somebody who decides on things based to his conscience and acts according to the situation (understands laws/rules are there for a purpose but won't be bogged down by them if the situation calls for it) as cliched as that may be these days but hey, ME is still meant to be an RPG right despite some of the game play changes (which for most part I like btw)? This was possible in ME1 where persuasion was skill point based. I could have a paragon aligned Shepard with the ability to intimidate that street thug every now and then. ME2 however, this is not possible. Shepard is either a love everybody pacifist or an extremely violent bastard. I know the whole paragon and renegade deal in ME is overly simplified to begin with but jesus christ, at least in ME1 I could choose to add more dimension to my Shepard through skill points and a bit of imagination. The system ME1 used actually made sense since that is what persuasion is, a skill, not something that just happens just because you're morals are aligned towards one end of the spectrum.

It is actually sort of ironic given how the devs made the personalities of some of your squad mates so interesting, at least in my opinion. Samara I believe is a very good example of how actions shouldn't be tied to alignment and of a possible personality you could have guided Shepard towards in ME1. Provided Samara's version of morality is much more complex compared to what we as players use, on the surface one could say Samara is a law abiding paragon (based on her Code) who will use renegade actions against law breakers (once again, based on her Code) . She sure as hell doesn't try to talk her enemies over with logic and crap, she just intimidates them and if they still don't budge, they die.

I won't go into any more examples since they've all been brought up in the thread already, but I'll do so if need be if people still don't understand the problem some of us have with current morality and persuasion system used in ME2. Basically, we're trying to think of a way to allow playing our Shepards with a bit more dimension in them other than the overly simplified and extreme ends of paragon and renegade without being screwed over for it. Personally, I would like Charm and Intimidate skills to be brought back (never understood those who were confused by it but to each and their own I guess) but perhaps used skill points separate from powers? (An RPG with slightly complex character development? Really? lol) It would most definitely help if BioWare decided to redefine what it means to be a Paragon/Renegade but I guess at this stage in the game it's probably better to adapt to what we have to create alternatives. Once again, given the continuous comments by journalists and devs at how ME2 has are more shades of grey and by extension I'll assume ME3 will have more of as well, you'd think Shepard would have a part of that in him/her.

Modifié par LF1M_Tank, 24 février 2010 - 02:08 .

[HypesterHypester]

Let's be serious guys. You can't throw out the Paragon/Renegade system. It's got too many fans and it's too core to Bioware's RPG structure. Zero replayability is just the beginning of why that won't work and won't make the game better.



You CAN improve on it, dramatically. Having persuasion be a skill was a good angle in ME1, especially if combined as a single skill, and your Paragon/Renegade score just determined what dialogue options you got. I'm all for adding a third option as well. Make it green (it's not a combo, it's different) and make it the 'logical' or 'intellectual' option as oppose to a threat or appeal or something ambiguous, but nets you an equal amount of paragon and renegade points.



To balance that, I honestly suspect that supporting characters should have non-combat attributes, perfect thing to level up for characters you don't plan on fielding often. Levelling up Mordin's lab skill or Zaeed's tracking skill could add something interesting to gameplay.



I honestly don't have much respect for 'it takes more work' arguments. Yeah, improvements to the game take more work. It's not a zero-sum game either, improvements to the game do not necessarily make another part of the game worse, it only takes away an unknown amount of improvement from other parts of the game, and lets face it, most of the rest of the ME is near perfect already. This aspect of the game NEEDS help.

[LF1M_Tank]

Wouldn't having a single persuasion skill with your morality determining your dialogue essentially be the system ME2 uses? The purpose of the separate charm and intimidate skills in ME1 was so that persuasion was independent of morality as opposed to dependent as it has become in ME2. Having a single skill with morality determining whether you charm or intimidate would just be redundant.

I whole heartedly agree though that the Paragon/Renegade system is here to stay. ME was built around it. But the system is very cliched and black and white due to its over simplification of paragon/renegade definitions. ME1 helped alleviate some of that and basically we're trying to get that back into ME3. What I would like to see are more paragon actions with a violent nature like the side quest involving the missing credit chit. That style of action is the sort I want my Shepard to be able to do.

Another thing that could be polished up on is making sure morality is relative to something that is consistent throughout the game. What I mean by this is "are your actions paragon/renegade in nature according to your conscience/galactic law/social norms/etc". This wasn't really a problem in ME1 as it was consistent to whatever it was relative to the whole game. In ME2 however, things got a bit iffy with regards to Cerberus comments. Anyone who has played through the whole game should understand what I'm pointing at. I'll elabroate if need be but it may be considered a spoiler regardless how minor it may seem personally.

[HypesterHypester]

LF1M_Tank wrote...

Wouldn't having a single persuasion skill with your morality determining your dialogue essentially be the system ME2 uses? The purpose of the separate charm and intimidate skills in ME1 was so that persuasion was independent of morality as opposed to dependent as it has become in ME2. Having a single skill with morality determining whether you charm or intimidate would just be redundant.

I whole heartedly agree though that the Paragon/Renegade system is here to stay. ME was built around it. But the system is very cliched and black and white due to its over simplification of paragon/renegade definitions. ME1 helped alleviate some of that and basically we're trying to get that back into ME3. What I would like to see are more paragon actions with a violent nature like the side quest involving the missing credit chit. That style of action is the sort I want my Shepard to be able to do.

Another thing that could be polished up on is making sure morality is relative to something that is consistent throughout the game. What I mean by this is "are your actions paragon/renegade in nature according to your conscience/galactic law/social norms/etc". This wasn't really a problem in ME1 as it was consistent to whatever it was relative to the whole game. In ME2 however, things got a bit iffy with regards to Cerberus comments. Anyone who has played through the whole game should understand what I'm pointing at. I'll elabroate if need be but it may be considered a spoiler regardless how minor it may seem personally.

I don't understand. Are you saying that having persuasion skill and morality seperate in ME1 was redundant? Persuassion allows any high level character to do the big pulls, but the morality determines the results of your big pulls. Middle of the roads are no longer punished with impotence. I realize this puts a strain on the replayability of the game, by allowing someone to sample both all the way through, but I don't think it's crippling, and I think with so many long term effects in play, players will still have a different playthrough each time.

Is Paragon and Renegade simple? Yeah, any time a single action or statement is judged paragon or renegade, it's oversimplified.  The only way to complicate and nuance the system would be to have delays, gambits or some other method by which after a string of Paragon choices, you have access to a large, overcompensatory Renegade choice. You talk someone off of a ledge, and then take tehir money, shoot them in the head and kick them off, for instance.  The system itself doesn't have to change, really, to accomodate that. Likewise, being able to be all renegade, but earn, like, 1000 Paragon points for sacrificing yourself at the end.

I could go for some more consistency though. The ME2 Paragon is a LOT more violent than the ME1 one. I haven't gotten to the point you're referring to, but it'd be nice to have an idea whether or not I'm about to shoot someone or not.

Modifié par HypesterHypester, 25 février 2010 - 03:00 .

[LF1M_Tank]

I may have worded it confusingly sorry. In ME1, if you played through the same Shepard in NG+, your skills get carried over. Because of this very thing, and the fact that Charm and Intimidate were skills, with multiple play throughs, one could have a full paragon Shepard with maximum intimidate points (or vice versa with renegade and charm), and was thus able to choose the intimidate option during persuasion checks despite being a paragon character.

By your suggestion if I am reading it correctly (I'm getting the feeling I'm not though), there is one unified skill called "Persuasion" and when a persuasion check comes up, if you have high enough skill in "Persuasion" you are able to select the persuasion option but whether its intimidate or charm is determined by your Renegade/Paragon.

eg. I have maximum "Persuasion", persuasion check pops up, I have 80% renegade, intimidate is determined to be the option I can use.

If I am correct in that, then yes it is redundant. Once again though, I may be reading it entirely wrong so feel free to correct me.

As for the consistency, I was actually referring more to the whole sudden change in attitude when commenting about Cerberus as you progress through the game.

eg. At start: paragon = distrust cerberus renegade = i'll see.
Later on: paragon = defending cerberus (saying they've changed etc) renegade = attack cerberus
At end: back to start more or less

The Horizon reunion is a very clear example of it. Also, I'm actually a fan of the slightly more violent paragon actions/attitude as it makes things less black and white (wasn't this boasted as a strong point of ME2 over ME1?) I should be able save innocents with their absolute safety in my mind by killing the enemies and still have that considered a Paragon option. As it is in ME atm for most part, that choice would have you sparing the lives of your enemies as well for it to be considered Paragon. I'm actually probably simplifying that example itself, but hopefully you get the idea of the stereotypical attributes associated with paragon/renegade in ME.

Modifié par LF1M_Tank, 25 février 2010 - 04:39 .

[Canez fan 1988]

Don't most conversations already have a neutral option? You can also choose to not say anything and end the conversation, so technically that 3rd option is already there.

[DaveTheJackal]

Canez fan 1988 wrote...

Don't most conversations already have a neutral option? You can also choose to not say anything and end the conversation, so technically that 3rd option is already there.

As has been stated a zillion times, as well as in the OP, it's not a BONUS, unlockable neutral option. i.e. the varied or neutral gets no sweeties and that makes me sad.

Modifié par DaveTheJackal, 25 février 2010 - 10:54 .

[Canez fan 1988]

DaveTheJackal wrote...

Canez fan 1988 wrote...

Don't most conversations already have a neutral option? You can also choose to not say anything and end the conversation, so technically that 3rd option is already there.

As has been stated a zillion times, as well as in the OP, it's not a BONUS, unlockable neutral option. i.e. the varied or neutral gets no sweeties and that makes me sad.

Well usually that's what happen in real life. If you stay neutral and don't pick a side, then no one will be on yours.

[EternalWolfe]

Canez fan 1988 wrote...

DaveTheJackal wrote...

Canez fan 1988 wrote...

Don't most conversations already have a neutral option? You can also choose to not say anything and end the conversation, so technically that 3rd option is already there.

As has been stated a zillion times, as well as in the OP, it's not a BONUS, unlockable neutral option. i.e. the varied or neutral gets no sweeties and that makes me sad.

Well usually that's what happen in real life. If you stay neutral and don't pick a side, then no one will be on yours.

I find being neutral in real life tends to get quite a few people on your side - if only so you don't suddenly choose to pick the other side.

My only problem with rewarding a middle path is that it means Paragon/Renegade don't mean anything.  If you can choose the neutral option and still get most of the Paragon/Renegade options, then the morality system doesn't matter anymore - not that that's a bad thing,

I'd rather have free options or just a strait up persuarsion skill(like in DA:O) then be limited by my past actions.  I treat different people differently in real life.  I could be the nicest guy in the world, go out and punch an old lady in the face, what's stopping shepard for talking tough?

[DaveTheJackal]

EternalWolfe wrote...

I find being neutral in real life tends to get quite a few people on your side - if only so you don't suddenly choose to pick the other side.

My only problem with rewarding a middle path is that it means Paragon/Renegade don't mean anything.  If you can choose the neutral option and still get most of the Paragon/Renegade options, then the morality system doesn't matter anymore - not that that's a bad thing,

I'd rather have free options or just a strait up persuarsion skill(like in DA:O) then be limited by my past actions.  I treat different people differently in real life.  I could be the nicest guy in the world, go out and punch an old lady in the face, what's stopping shepard for talking tough?

The neutral option wouldn't enable most renegade/paragon options, you'd get small bonuses to rene/para but not enough to qualify for all but the easiest rene/para unlockable options.

Similarly, the more difference there is in the two 'alignment' stats, the less likely you are to qualify for a neutral option.

I don't like the idea of a persuasion skill but would support conversations which are limited more by actual events.

I guess the reasoning behind the unlockable options is that your fame/infamy preceeds you and, based on this, a person is more or less likely to accept what you say to them. e.g. offering a peaceful solution if you're known as a killer might not come across too well.