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[Jedi_blues]

Simply look at all the other evidence for Pete's sake. A recording of Wilson wanting more pay. A recording of Wilson disliking Miranda. Every single clue points to one person.

Bioware did everything just short of letting you catch him red handed. 

Modifié par Jedi_blues, 20 février 2010 - 06:07 .

[Internet Kraken]

mac35 wrote...

Internet Kraken wrote...

I've never believed that Wilson was a traitor because it never made sense. How the hell would Cerberus allow one member of the medical staff to hack every mech in the station with them having no way of regaining control? It was a setup by TIM to get Shepard to trust Mirana and Cerberus.

That makes *slightly* more sense than Miranda being the person who set it up but again, what good does it do TIM to set all of that up? It's not like the attack made Shepard loyal to Cerb or TIM. TIM could have just woken Shep up when ready, told him "hey, you were dead, we fixed you and now you owe us one....and PS humanity needs your help" and Shep still would have gone for it. No need for Miranda OR TIM to go through the attack and risk 2 years of work and credits being flushed down the toilet if Shep were killed again.

Think about it. TIM can't expect Shepard to just trust anyone right away. If he woke Shepard up, why would he believe any of this? But by setting up the mech attack, Shepard has more trust in Jacob and, more important, Miranda. Miranda leads him to safety and as a result Shepard has more faith in her. It's much eaiser to earn someone' s trust after you have saved their life.

But you're right, that alone is not a big enough reason to set up the mech attack. But the mech attack also served the purpose of "cleaning up" the rest of the Lazarus project. By killing off nearly everyone involved TIM guarntees that information from the project does not slip. The Lazarus project had one purpose, and is no longer neccesary.

Jedi_blues wrote...



Simply look at all the other
evidence for Pete's sake. A recording of Wilson wanting more pay. A
recording of Wilson disliking Miranda. Every single clue points to one
person.

That's hardly compelling evidence. So wanting to get a raise suddenly makes him the most likely suspect? Even when it's pretty obvious that he should not have been able to override the station's security? Considering all the monitoring devices and security mechanisms we find on the Normandy, it seems unlikely that Cerberus would have such lax security on one of their biggest projects.

Modifié par Internet Kraken, 20 février 2010 - 06:19 .

[Madecologist]

The Angry One wrote...

Possibly the Illusive Man wanted to get rid of all expendable personnel and technology in the Lazarus Cell when they were no longer needed, and bribed Wilson through a third party.
Shep would have to get out through trial-by-fire but it wouldn't be the only time he's dumped Shep in the **** creek without a paddle - he knows Shep will win anyway.

So... he.. jump started Shepard in a way.

[jklinders]

Jedi_blues wrote...



Simply look at all the other evidence for Pete's sake. A recording of Wilson wanting more pay. A recording of Wilson disliking Miranda. Every single clue points to one person.

not to mention "Shepard's alive? How the hel-never mind"...

[Jedi_blues]

jklinders wrote...

Jedi_blues wrote...



Simply look at all the other evidence for Pete's sake. A recording of Wilson wanting more pay. A recording of Wilson disliking Miranda. Every single clue points to one person.

not to mention "Shepard's alive? How the hel-never mind"...

I already mentioned that early on, but thanks for mentioning it again. It's patently obvious if you play through that part of the game thoroughly. 

[Cutlass Jack]

Jedi_blues wrote...

Simply look at all the other evidence for Pete's sake. A recording of Wilson wanting more pay. A recording of Wilson disliking Miranda. Every single clue points to one person.

None of that is evidence.

Hey just tell me why Miranda left armor and a weapon near a fully dressed and unrestrained Spectre with a history of killing Cerberus bases. A Spectre she knew was healthy enough to 'get moving.'

Because for the life of me I can't think of any logical reason for her to do that.

[anmiro]

Actually I'm still suspicious of Miranda for shooting Wilson. Her explanation for shooting him is extremely weak, if the guy was a mole he is far more valuable alive. I think Miranda was the mole and she was covering her tracks. 

I'm sure you'll ask, what reason would Miranda have for wanting to betray TIM? Well what reason did they give Wilson. None. Its all left up in the air. 

I believe the real explanation though is simply that Bioware needed a way to throw the player right into the action. And making Wilson a mole who wanted to destroy the facility for some undetermined reason, for some unknown third party was the simplest way to do that.

I enjoyed ME2 and if I could pre-order ME3 right now I would. But I really hope it does not feel as contrived as the "Dark 2nd Chapter".

Modifié par anmiro, 20 février 2010 - 06:15 .

[Jedi_blues]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Jedi_blues wrote...

Simply look at all the other evidence for Pete's sake. A recording of Wilson wanting more pay. A recording of Wilson disliking Miranda. Every single clue points to one person.

None of that is evidence.

Hey just tell me why Miranda left armor and a weapon near a fully dressed and unrestrained Spectre with a history of killing Cerberus bases. A Spectre she knew was healthy enough to 'get moving.'

Because for the life of me I can't think of any logical reason for her to do that.

We will have to disagree. If you look at story design for that level is pretty clear that it is all evidence. Bioware is leading you on a bread crumb trail that unfortunately finishes with Shep having the option of basically saying "I had a feeling that guy was looking for a way to shoot me in the back." 

You have to remember he has to be told it is a Cerberus base, so your argument that he would wake up and go crazy in the place doesn't work. Clearly she didn't intend for him to wake up in the middle of a war zone. Cerberus wants Shep to trust them, so if I had to guess, they left it there for his comfort. 

A lot of little bits in this game are just there to move the story forward. There are a handful of things that do not make sense to me, but to mention them would derail the thread. 

[jklinders]

I broke it down fairly well on page 2 have a look in case you missed it. Fact is we don't KNOW anything, but there are some facts we can work off of.

[Jedi_blues]

[quote]Internet Kraken wrote...

[quote]mac35 wrote...

[quote]Internet Kraken wrote...

I've never believed that Wilson was a traitor because it never made sense. How the hell would Cerberus allow one member of the medical staff to hack every mech in the station with them having no way of regaining control? It was a setup by TIM to get Shepard to trust Mirana and Cerberus. [/quote]


That makes *slightly* more sense than Miranda being the person who set it up but again, what good does it do TIM to set all of that up? It's not like the attack made Shepard loyal to Cerb or TIM. TIM could have just woken Shep up when ready, told him "hey, you were dead, we fixed you and now you owe us one....and PS humanity needs your help" and Shep still would have gone for it. No need for Miranda OR TIM to go through the attack and risk 2 years of work and credits being flushed down the toilet if Shep were killed again.

[/quote]

Think about it. TIM can't expect Shepard to just trust anyone right away. If he woke Shepard up, why would he believe any of this? But by setting up the mech attack, Shepard has more trust in Jacob and, more important, Miranda. Miranda leads him to safety and as a result Shepard has more faith in her. It's much eaiser to earn someone' s trust after you have saved their life.

But you're right, that alone is not a big enough reason to set up the mech attack. But the mech attack also served the purpose of "cleaning up" the rest of the Lazarus project. By killing off nearly everyone involved TIM guarntees that information from the project does not slip. The Lazarus project had one purpose, and is no longer neccesary.

Simply look at all the other
evidence for Pete's sake. A recording of Wilson wanting more pay. A
recording of Wilson disliking Miranda. Every single clue points to one
person.[/quote]

That's hardly compelling evidence. So wanting to get a raise suddenly makes him the most likely suspect? Even when it's pretty obvious that he should not have been able to override the station's security? Considering all the monitoring devices and security mechanisms we find on the Normandy, it seems unlikely that Cerberus would have such lax security on one of their biggest projects.

[/quote]

You have to put all the clues together. They lay them out in a pretty basic faction. You can't take them apart piece by piece you have to accept them or reject them as a whole. You either accept that everything points to Wilson, the logs, the surprise in his voice, no mechs in the room he was supposedly shot in, or you ignore all the clues Bioware planted.  

Making Miranda set this up in order for Shep to trust Miranda? 
That's kinda messy for a smart guy like TIM. Makes way more sense to use a disgruntled worker like Wilson through a third party to betray the cell once the cell's objectives were complete. He would have faith that between Miranda, Shep and Jacob someone would sniff Wilson out before he got off the station.

Every. Single. Clue. Bioware left points to Wilson. Miranda was working to save Sheps life. Wilson was shocked he was still alive, and tried everything he could to make sure Miranda was left behind, because he knew Miranda would have known it was him if everyone else missed it.
 

[Jedi_blues]

jklinders wrote...

I've been nursing an idea about this since my first playthrough. There is just not enough info to back it up.

This is what we know for certain from the logs.

Wilson does not like Miranda ie: cold hearted *****, maybe she is afraid she is not going to be the favorite much longer.

Wilson felt he was undercompensated for his work.

Miranda had no interest in releasing shepard until she felt he was the real deal. We also know from later conversations that she is a perfectionist.

Wilson is not supposed ot have access to the meck security protocols.

I do not think the above can be argued against, the rest of this post is speculation.

Maybe just maybe, TIM was getting impatient to move to the next phase of his plan to make himself galactic emperor and through an intermediary offerred Wilson a boatload of cash to sabotage the station. Giving him access to the mechs in the process. He does this because Miranda is taking to long to clear Shepard as being ready and he does not want to undermine her confidence in herself. He likely figured Miranda to work out who reprogrammed the mechs and deal with Wilson as a traiter should be.

OK I know this sounds nuts but consider that he has 2 agent on that station whom he has confidence in and he knows Miranda will let nothing happen to Shepard. TIM makes a number of "calculated risks" throughout this game and from the numerous reports he likely felt that Shep was ready.

Only a theory but TIM never shows anything resembling concern over a security breach of his most important project and Wilson is never mentioned again. That kind of casual attitude comes from knowing all the facts of why Wilson acted and knowing that there is nothing to worry about because he was in control the entire time.

That's all I got.

Good summary, but you are only taking the logs into evidence. You need to take into account that Wilson seemed shocked that Shepard was still alive, that he routed both Jacob and Shep into a room full of mechs, the way he told them was "safest", and he is supposedly shot in a room with no mechs in it.

[jklinders]

Jedi_blues wrote...

jklinders wrote...

I've been nursing an idea about this since my first playthrough. There is just not enough info to back it up.

This is what we know for certain from the logs.

Wilson does not like Miranda ie: cold hearted *****, maybe she is afraid she is not going to be the favorite much longer.

Wilson felt he was undercompensated for his work.

Miranda had no interest in releasing shepard until she felt he was the real deal. We also know from later conversations that she is a perfectionist.

Wilson is not supposed ot have access to the meck security protocols.

I do not think the above can be argued against, the rest of this post is speculation.

Maybe just maybe, TIM was getting impatient to move to the next phase of his plan to make himself galactic emperor and through an intermediary offerred Wilson a boatload of cash to sabotage the station. Giving him access to the mechs in the process. He does this because Miranda is taking to long to clear Shepard as being ready and he does not want to undermine her confidence in herself. He likely figured Miranda to work out who reprogrammed the mechs and deal with Wilson as a traiter should be.

OK I know this sounds nuts but consider that he has 2 agent on that station whom he has confidence in and he knows Miranda will let nothing happen to Shepard. TIM makes a number of "calculated risks" throughout this game and from the numerous reports he likely felt that Shep was ready.

Only a theory but TIM never shows anything resembling concern over a security breach of his most important project and Wilson is never mentioned again. That kind of casual attitude comes from knowing all the facts of why Wilson acted and knowing that there is nothing to worry about because he was in control the entire time.

That's all I got.

Good summary, but you are only taking the logs into evidence. You need to take into account that Wilson seemed shocked that Shepard was still alive, that he routed both Jacob and Shep into a room full of mechs, the way he told them was "safest", and he is supposedly shot in a room with no mechs in it.

Not at all, because if I am right Wilson was never expected to get off that station alive and did not know he was working for TIM. he though the was hired to destroy the whole project if I am right but was expected to fail to off miranda and Shepard because, well he was a doctor given access to stuff he did not understand not a soldier.

Like I said it is pretty flimsy, but it makes more sense than him getting mech access without jacob(security officer) knowing.

[Eshaye]

cylriasilver wrote...

Wilson is the chief researcher. If his only goal was to kill Shepard, he could easily have just “failed” to bring him/her back to life and covered up the numbers to make it look like Miranda’s fault

I think he DID try. The first time you wake up, you almost die. Miranda says: I told you the readings were off.. And Wilson brushes it aside. To me this was the best indication that he's been trying to kill you by 'accident'. 

[Jedi_blues]

SwobyJ wrote...

In such a dualistic game, people gotta think a little non-dualistically. Sure Miranda may have masterminded this, but what about Wilson being so suspicious? Sure Wilson is so suspicious, but what was the actual result of the mission? (... Shepard at least going along with TIM in the short term)

As much as Paragon goes 'goody-two-shoes' and Renegade goes 'RAWR SITH', Bioware still tries to make both valid options for different player personalities. It's just that in some situations Paragon (distrusting Miranda) is more appropriate, where in others Renegade is. However, we can still roleplay as we like.

Very true. If they wanted such a dualistic approach though you think they would have left more pieces against Miranda. The only reason Shep has not to trust her is he didn't know where she was, yet clearly she did work on keeping him alive. Later on at the new station if you try to get to know her she is all closed up, if she really was that focused on wanting Shep to trust her to plan all this you think she would have opened up a little more. 

[Cutlass Jack]

Jedi_blues wrote...

Good summary, but you are only taking the logs into evidence. You need to take into account that Wilson seemed shocked that Shepard was still alive, that he routed both Jacob and Shep into a room full of mechs, the way he told them was "safest", and he is supposedly shot in a room with no mechs in it.

Poor evidence since Mechs did enter the room shooting while you were still there to witness it. And of course the other bodies in the room. Unless you think he was an excellent commando as well as a hacker and a top doctor? If so I'd rather have recruited him than Miranda. He's awesome.

Also: the two damaged mechs in his office. Who damaged them if he didn't? Are you suggesting he ran to the control room, reprogrammed the mechs, ran all the way back to his office to damage a few as an alibi and then head back?

I took the' shocked that Shepard was alive' at face value. The place was flooded with mechs and Shep was unconcious.  He clearly had no idea that there were weapons and armor stored by Shep or he would have arranged to move them.

I agree that TIMs a smart guy. Smart enough that Wilson never would have been able to do anything without his knowledge. Wilson showed no evidence of being more clever than TIM/Miranda.

[jklinders]

Jedi_blues wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

In such a dualistic game, people gotta think a little non-dualistically. Sure Miranda may have masterminded this, but what about Wilson being so suspicious? Sure Wilson is so suspicious, but what was the actual result of the mission? (... Shepard at least going along with TIM in the short term)

As much as Paragon goes 'goody-two-shoes' and Renegade goes 'RAWR SITH', Bioware still tries to make both valid options for different player personalities. It's just that in some situations Paragon (distrusting Miranda) is more appropriate, where in others Renegade is. However, we can still roleplay as we like.

Very true. If they wanted such a dualistic approach though you think they would have left more pieces against Miranda. The only reason Shep has not to trust her is he didn't know where she was, yet clearly she did work on keeping him alive. Later on at the new station if you try to get to know her she is all closed up, if she really was that focused on wanting Shep to trust her to plan all this you think she would have opened up a little more. 

She gave all the signals of being pretty ****ed of about her staff being killed. She was not certain Shepard was worth all the effort either. It's one of the reasons I think she is innocent.

[Jedi_blues]

Eshaye wrote...

cylriasilver wrote...

Wilson is the chief researcher. If his only goal was to kill Shepard, he could easily have just “failed” to bring him/her back to life and covered up the numbers to make it look like Miranda’s fault

I think he DID try. The first time you wake up, you almost die. Miranda says: I told you the readings were off.. And Wilson brushes it aside. To me thiswas the best indication that he's been trying to kill you by 'accident'. 

Good point. I forgot about that. He blatantly ignored Miranda when she had told him before, (off screen) that his numbers were wrong or whatever. 

I am not saying TIM wasn't behind it somehow, but they sure leave a lot of little tidbits that point to Wilson, and almost none against Miranda. Which leads me to believe if TIM was involved he used Wilson without Miranda knowing. If you pay attention Miranda is more than a little blind to Cerberus' darker side, and I think TIM likes to keep her that way.

[Jedi_blues]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Jedi_blues wrote...

Good summary, but you are only taking the logs into evidence. You need to take into account that Wilson seemed shocked that Shepard was still alive, that he routed both Jacob and Shep into a room full of mechs, the way he told them was "safest", and he is supposedly shot in a room with no mechs in it.

Poor evidence since Mechs did enter the room shooting while you were still there to witness it. And of course the other bodies in the room. Unless you think he was an excellent commando as well as a hacker and a top doctor? If so I'd rather have recruited him than Miranda. He's awesome.

Also: the two damaged mechs in his office. Who damaged them if he didn't? Are you suggesting he ran to the control room, reprogrammed the mechs, ran all the way back to his office to damage a few as an alibi and then head back?

I took the' shocked that Shepard was alive' at face value. The place was flooded with mechs and Shep was unconcious.  He clearly had no idea that there were weapons and armor stored by Shep or he would have arranged to move them.

I agree that TIMs a smart guy. Smart enough that Wilson never would have been able to do anything without his knowledge. Wilson showed no evidence of being more clever than TIM/Miranda.

I didn't think that was his office. If it was, why was a Miranda voice log in it?



You're obviously not willing to look at what Bioware laid out before you. From the point of Shep almost dying on the operating table onward it all points to Wilson. Yet you dismiss every clue they dropped as "flimsy" while in your mind your own suppositions, that are mostly not in the game, ring true. There's not much more point in trying to convince you is there?