101 réponses à ce sujet

[Cutlass Jack]

Jedi_blues wrote...

I didn't think that was his office. If it was, why was a Miranda voice log in it?

You're obviously not willing to look at what Bioware laid out before you. From the point of Shep almost dying on the operating table onward it all points to Wilson. Yet you dismiss every clue they dropped as "flimsy" while in your mind your own suppositions, that are mostly not in the game, ring true. There's not much more point in trying to convince you is there? 

That was his office. All the medical stuff in the room. The walls were covered with Shepard's medical info. The computer with the 'evidence' about him not getting enough money was right there. Also, a safe with money in it, ironically.

And no real point in trying to convince you either. All evidence in either direction is circumstantial. But to believe your conclusion we must believe that Wilson is more clever than both Miranda and TIM. I find this near impossible to believe. He was the top doctor on the project. They would have been watching him like a hawk.

What Bioware does lay out for us in no uncertain terms is that information is TIM's entire game. Also that every time he sends you on a mission directly he's playing you. Every time. He's always setting you up or leaving out some crucial information to manipulate you into serving his ends.

[Jedi_blues]

SwobyJ wrote...

Jedi_blues wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

In such a dualistic game, people gotta think a little non-dualistically. Sure Miranda may have masterminded this, but what about Wilson being so suspicious? Sure Wilson is so suspicious, but what was the actual result of the mission? (... Shepard at least going along with TIM in the short term)

As much as Paragon goes 'goody-two-shoes' and Renegade goes 'RAWR SITH', Bioware still tries to make both valid options for different player personalities. It's just that in some situations Paragon (distrusting Miranda) is more appropriate, where in others Renegade is. However, we can still roleplay as we like.

Very true. If they wanted such a dualistic approach though you think they would have left more pieces against Miranda. The only reason Shep has not to trust her is he didn't know where she was, yet clearly she did work on keeping him alive. Later on at the new station if you try to get to know her she is all closed up, if she really was that focused on wanting Shep to trust her to plan all this you think she would have opened up a little more. 

1)It seemed very suspicious to me to hear Miranda say she'll clear the way, while similtaniously seeing a large mech kill cerberus people who would help you. 

2)The pacing for Miranda's character progression is SO off. She's all 'trust me' on Cerberus facility, 'I can't/don't want to talk' before Freedom's Progress, but right after you get the Normandy at her desk shes actually pretty friendly. It's so jarring to talk to her. For all the talk of emotion in games that Bioware did with the marketing, Miranda is one of their weakest cases. I'll take Thane, Samara, Legion, Mordin over her any day (when it comes to emotional representation).

1) We will have to disagree. At the end of the mission, if you basically demand to go check for survivors, they both tell you you are the only one that matters, the whole project was for you, everyone knew the risks. She was clearing a path for you, not for the Cerberus lab techs.

2) I agree with you there. I think they sort of meant it to be that she warms up once Shep basically agrees to partner/join Cerberus by the time he walks on to the Normandy.  The deal is sort of sealed by then. Before that she is wondering if all this time she spent was worth it. But they could have done a much better job of having her explain that through dialog. Even the romance with her seemed a little hollow. Once you help her with her sister it seems to come down to "I'm hot, you're hot, you helped me, let's bang". I thought Tali's was by far more of a true "romance", but then again she had the advantage of being around since ME 1 too. When Tali talks about all the things you did together in ME 1 and how she watched you but never thought you could see past the mask, that was very touching. Wow, way off topic now.

[mcsupersport]

1) Miranda actually tells you she is worried that you are not appreciating Cerberus the way you should for all the effort they put into you.



2) Wilson did the betrayal...below are my reasons.



a) You almost die due to his numbers and timetable being off.

He is very surprised you are still alive.

c) He is shot in the leg and no mechs are around him.

d) His "Oh, gods, they found me, ahhhh..." sounds so fake it is stupid.

e) His logs both the wanting more money, and his upset that Miranda is not more "excited" and I feel interested in him as a "Man".

f) The mechs only come to attack him again after Shepard gets there.

g) He directs Shepard and Jacob directly into a room with mechs after saying it is clear.

h) He says it must be Miranda, who has to be dead.

i) A shot in the leg prevents you from crawling over to the first aid center that would heal you??

j

[Fates end]

Well...honestly, I would have probably shot them all But I wasn't give the option. I actually didn't suspect him of much, and was hoping to save him (love Blum's voice work). But no dice

[Madecologist]

I don't think people are really disagreeing to Wilson being a traitor. I think the point being made is a lot of people think Miranda was scheming too (not against Shepard, but for the Illusive Man) and that Wilson's betrayel was part of the TIM's plans to get Shepard on the move and to cooperate. Not that Wilson knew about it. He was used as a pawn. Miranda's job was to make sure things go according to the 'real' plan.

[mcsupersport]

You don't just kill 20-200 people who work for you just because. You don't kill them to keep the knowledge of Shepard being brought back to life and working for Cerberus because a) Pretty obvious Shepard is alive again, and TIM puts out the information that Shepard is alive and working for Cerberus. You don't kill your employees because it means you have less chance of replacing them, and they are needed personnel to run a base, please remember Cerberus is only susposed to be about 200 people, not thousands and thousands. Limited personnel means they each are valued unless something else is more valuable that there death would protect(ala Shepard).



You don't have to get Shepard up and going with an attack because TIM could just order it, and while Miranda may not like it, would accept it. You don't have to get Shepard to trust Miranda that way, you just have to get Shepard the information that Humans are dieing and no one else is going to help, but Cerberus is willing if Shepard will. You don't have to gain Shepard's trust at all, you simply need him doing the work you want done, and this is accomplished by going to the first colony.



As far as TIM not talking about Wilson to you, didn't expect him too. He only gives the info he thinks you need, he also wouldn't want to broadcast how badly his security and information system screwed up to the guy you are saying "trust me, I know the info you need to get and the info you need to follow". He would run traces and info sweeps with another crew to see if Miranda or Jacob betrayed him, but he wouldn't tell anyone who was on the base any information on what he found.

[Vamp44]

Miranda already did that for me.
And yes I'm willing to wait for her to do it for me..

Modifié par Vamp44, 20 février 2010 - 08:17 .

[Madecologist]

Did you play ME1. Cerberus wipes out a colony of about 200 people just to test Dragon Teeth. A colony of humans.

Also you trust any conversation TIM has. The man is a master manipulator. He can probably fake crying if he has to. If it will get someone to work for him.

This is a man that will do anything to get his goal. He would kill the people of his project just to create a sense of urgency for Shepard. All those lives just sacrificed for that. People really need to a) Replay ME1 and redo the Cerberus side missions. 2) Read the second novel. To know exactly what this orginasation is truely like or capable of.

Modifié par Madecologist, 20 février 2010 - 08:22 .

[mcsupersport]

Sure he will kill a colony of generic individuals not his colony for no real reason.

Each of "his" people would sacrifice themselves for a greater good, but get real, you don't just kill your people that way and expect to continue to have the best people you can get. The knowledge that the organization is a bad place to work would get out. You don't kill specialist just because, and each person on the base would be a specialist in their field which would be medical, security, and environmental all of which are valuable. Sure he would kill people, especially if they are not in his organization working for him. The idea of killing an entire base team just to get a minor amount of trust from Shepard is silly. Shepard only agrees to work with him(paragon) after visiting the Colony and seeing the Collectors taking humans. You wake Shepard up and say you have been dead 2 years, and someone is killing our Colonies, but no one is doing a darn thing about it, will you help?? Gains the exact same thing, and you keep your team of people to run your base when you don't have huge numbers to spare.

[Madecologist]

Talk to EDI, each cell knows nothing of other cells. So wiping out one will not get to the attention of others. Only TIM knows what each group is doing. Also, there is good chances Miranda was not in on Wilson's betrayel. So she too believes he did it. Since it has been shown TIM also manipulates her.

You probably should read the third novel when comes out... is all I will say at this point.

Modifié par Madecologist, 20 février 2010 - 08:59 .

[AtreiyaN7]

I thought Wilson was a bit of a weasel. Look, he clearly wasn't supposed to have access to the area you find him in. Wilson's responses to your questions AND his behavior were highly suspicious. Besides, why would Miranda try to help Shepard escape if SHE were the traitor. Personally, I would have left him alive for interrogation, but eh, I'm not sorry that Miranda killed him. As for how Wilson got shot in the leg, who cares? A mech could have nailed him, he could have shot himself, or someone who managed to survive longer than the others could have shot him (perhaps realizing that Wilson was the traitor) - who cares? It's not relevant to his guilt or innocence. Also, there's that one audio log in which Wilson complains about the money TIM has spent on the Lazarus Project, and Wilson basically says he wish that he could get some of that money thrown his way. Hellooooooo, motive?

[darknoon5]

Jedi_blues wrote...

jklinders wrote...

I've been nursing an idea about this since my first playthrough. There is just not enough info to back it up.

This is what we know for certain from the logs.

Wilson does not like Miranda ie: cold hearted *****, maybe she is afraid she is not going to be the favorite much longer.

Wilson felt he was undercompensated for his work.

Miranda had no interest in releasing shepard until she felt he was the real deal. We also know from later conversations that she is a perfectionist.

Wilson is not supposed ot have access to the meck security protocols.

I do not think the above can be argued against, the rest of this post is speculation.

Maybe just maybe, TIM was getting impatient to move to the next phase of his plan to make himself galactic emperor and through an intermediary offerred Wilson a boatload of cash to sabotage the station. Giving him access to the mechs in the process. He does this because Miranda is taking to long to clear Shepard as being ready and he does not want to undermine her confidence in herself. He likely figured Miranda to work out who reprogrammed the mechs and deal with Wilson as a traiter should be.

OK I know this sounds nuts but consider that he has 2 agent on that station whom he has confidence in and he knows Miranda will let nothing happen to Shepard. TIM makes a number of "calculated risks" throughout this game and from the numerous reports he likely felt that Shep was ready.

Only a theory but TIM never shows anything resembling concern over a security breach of his most important project and Wilson is never mentioned again. That kind of casual attitude comes from knowing all the facts of why Wilson acted and knowing that there is nothing to worry about because he was in control the entire time.

That's all I got.

Good summary, but you are only taking the logs into evidence. You need to take into account that Wilson seemed shocked that Shepard was still alive, that he routed both Jacob and Shep into a room full of mechs, the way he told them was "safest",and he is supposedly shot in a room with no mechs in it.

The mechs in his office could have shot him during his escape, but he managed to fight them off and get to the room where you find him before collapsing?
Either way, I extremely doubt Wilson is the one behind it. Maybe he was an agent for whoever planned it, maybe not. But TIM must have had some knowledge of his motives-surely he would have far better security on a station protecting a 4billion dollar investment?  Maybe he left mechs prrotecting the base so the project could be "cleansed" at any time.

[Terraneaux]

I knew Wilson was a traitor on my first playthrough in my first conversation with it, his dialog implies it. Of course you can't do anything about it, unfortunately, as the purpose of the character is to make Miranda look good and smooth over the fact that she basically abducts you to go see TIM and you don't make a stink about it. I know my Renegade shep would have shot him at the least sign of trouble to begin with, especially once I realized he was Cerberus, but the early part of ME2 had some heavy railroading going on that was handled somewhat poorly.

[Azint]

Miranda beat me to it.

[Salakayin]

While I'm taking no opinion towards either side, I would like to mention that Wilson isn't the only folk surprised at the fact that Shepard is up and alive. Jacob seems fairly surprised at that Shepard is up as well when first running into him.

[ToshiStation38]

Salakayin wrote...

While I'm taking no opinion towards either side, I would like to mention that Wilson isn't the only folk surprised at the fact that Shepard is up and alive. Jacob seems fairly surprised at that Shepard is up as well when first running into him.

Wilson is surprised Shepard's alive. Jacob's surprised that he's awake.

[sergio71785]

Wilson was the trailer.



-He's very surprised Shepard is Alive

-There's a log in which he mentions that he wishes that TIM through more money his way

-When he's guiding you and Jacob through the radio, he leads you to a room with many mechs. Jacob even yells something like "Wilson try not to send us into a room with a platoon of mechs again!"

-He's shot in the leg, an obviously non-vital part, which a mech would obviously not be programmed to aim for.

-There are no dead or damaged mechs in the room he's in.

-He's in the mech area, which he's not supposed to be in anyway. He tries to justify this, but why would a doctor have knowledge of security protocols and all that?

-He immediately accuses Miranda of either being dead or the traitor

[Taritu]

No, I wanted to shoot Miranda. Stupid woman, even if Wilson was a traitor (and he probably was) you don't kill people like that before interrogating them.

[Cutlass Jack]

mcsupersport wrote...

Sure he will kill a colony of generic individuals not his colony for no real reason.
Each of "his" people would sacrifice themselves for a greater good, but get real, you don't just kill your people that way and expect to continue to have the best people you can get. The knowledge that the organization is a bad place to work would get out. You don't kill specialist just because, and each person on the base would be a specialist in their field which would be medical, security, and environmental all of which are valuable. Sure he would kill people, especially if they are not in his organization working for him. The idea of killing an entire base team just to get a minor amount of trust from Shepard is silly. Shepard only agrees to work with him(paragon) after visiting the Colony and seeing the Collectors taking humans. You wake Shepard up and say you have been dead 2 years, and someone is killing our Colonies, but no one is doing a darn thing about it, will you help?? Gains the exact same thing, and you keep your team of people to run your base when you don't have huge numbers to spare.

I take it you missed all the other instances of Cerberus 'cleansing' cells that got mentioned during the game? Jack's Loyalty quest is a very good example of this. TIM can and has done this in the past.

[mcsupersport]

Madecologist wrote...

Talk to EDI, each cell knows nothing of other cells. So wiping out one will not get to the attention of others. Only TIM knows what each group is doing. Also, there is good chances Miranda was not in on Wilson's betrayel. So she too believes he did it. Since it has been shown TIM also manipulates her.

You probably should read the third novel when comes out... is all I will say at this point.

Great another Evil/Stupid alignment character, lets kill highly trained individuals just because it is what evil guys do.  So sad, and really doesn't work all that well.  You can't recruit high level, specialist and top of the line talent if you are in the habit of "clensing" projects when they are finished for no reason.  Plus there is not a huge talent pool for you to recruit from, because not everyone will work for you, and if you have a habit of never seeing anyone who does then no one will.  It is not like the project failed, or was operating outside of parameter(IE Jack/subject zero), but simply to try to be evil and run a test on Shepard.  Gods IF that is true then Bioware greatly disappoints me with the quality of writing.

I don't care if none of the other "squads" of Cerberus know about the other, it will become common knowledge if you behave is such a stupid way on a regular basis.  Cerberus has a public relations problem as it is, plus the organization is only(according to EDI) about 150-200 individuals, so sacraficing 10-40 percent just to try out Shepard is not very smart.  TIM doesn't strike me as stupid, so if Bioware does this, then they need to upgrade their writing.

[mcsupersport]

Cutlass Jack wrote...



I take it you missed all the other instances of Cerberus 'cleansing' cells that got mentioned during the game? Jack's Loyalty quest is a very good example of this. TIM can and has done this in the past.

What part of acting outside the parameters for their cell didn't you understand from the logs??  The researchers stated if TIM finds out what they are doing they are in trouble, and they were counting on succeeding to save their hides.  Sure TIM as an Evil character doesn't see any issue with terminating people who are stupidly killing huge numbers of a limited group of individuals with little success in bettering those individuals.  The researchers that worked over Jack, were stupid in the extreme and deserved to be "clensed".   They killed how many biotic children that could have been trained and put into Cerberus uniform to make a biotic army if the researchers had used their brains. 

[Cutlass Jack]

mcsupersport wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...



I take it you missed all the other instances of Cerberus 'cleansing' cells that got mentioned during the game? Jack's Loyalty quest is a very good example of this. TIM can and has done this in the past.

What part of acting outside the parameters for their cell didn't you understand from the logs??  The researchers stated if TIM finds out what they are doing they are in trouble, and they were counting on succeeding to save their hides.  Sure TIM as an Evil character doesn't see any issue with terminating people who are stupidly killing huge numbers of a limited group of individuals with little success in bettering those individuals.  The researchers that worked over Jack, were stupid in the extreme and deserved to be "clensed".   They killed how many biotic children that could have been trained and put into Cerberus uniform to make a biotic army if the researchers had used their brains. 

TIM's history is clearing projects that weren't working out or have outlived their usefulness. Miranda says very directly that TIM gives goals but not directions on how to achieve it. Lazarus had one goal: To raise Shepard. They completed that goal. Either they succeeded and Shepard was back as he was, or he wasn't and they failed.

Either way they were done. Did you notice what he did after that segment? He completely destroyed the facility. He wanted no trace of any evidence of how they brought Shepard back. The one person who could tell Shep exactly what was done to him? Hole in his head.

Its said very directly that the only one who mattered was Shepard. Miranda didn't even want Shepard looking for survivors. Clearly the personnel there weren't that important.

[tonnactus]

No,because its stupid to give away the chance to get further information.Did he worked for the shadowbrooker?We dont know because the retarded "perfect women" shot him.

Modifié par tonnactus, 20 février 2010 - 11:35 .

[GuardianAngel470]

Jedi_blues wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Jedi_blues wrote...

Why do you say he was framed? 

Re: Miranda I don't believe she ever aimed a gun at him, only Wilson. And if Shep has half a brain he should be suspecting Wilson already. After seeing where he was "ambushed" I certainly kept him in front of me the rest of the time.

If your Shep had half a brain he'd realize that there was only one person on that station he didn't see the Mechs shooting at. And that wasn't Wilson.

To believe Wilson was the culprit, you'd have to believe he was so brilliant he could get things by Cerberus' security and TIM without them realizing it. Yet be so stupid he couldn't program the mechs not to shoot him or at least enter the room he was in.

You'd also have to believe that Miranda was so stupid she'd leave armor and weapons in a room next to the one person in the galaxy who has taken down multiple Cerberus cells without a second thought. And leave that man unrestrained in any way. You'd also have to believe Wilson could have done anything without her knowing it.

By Miranda's own words, 'she never makes mistakes.' Yet she seemed to have made an awful lot of them.

Wow. We'll have to disagree on this one. You are terribly misquoting Miranda for one. She says she is human, that she does make mistakes and the consequences of those mistakes are often very dire.  She may have said something to the contrary at first, but we both know that's not true.

A) Go back and listen to the surprise in Wilson's voice when he hears Shep is alive. He recovers quickly, but it is there.

He then routes them to a room that is full of mechs. When Shep makes it through that room he yells some garbage about being attacked. Funny how there are no mechs or mech pieces anywhere near him. Only dead people. 

C) He then keeps trying to convince everyone to leave Miranda behind. Why? It's pretty clear he send an army of mechs after her too.

All the evidence is there. If you can't put that together I don't what to say. But he was definitely the traitor. 

Cutlass Jack is right, though. She does say that, at least at first.  Then, when you talk to her aboard the Normandy, she tells you she does make mistakes, so she essentially contradicts herself.  Not Jack's fault.


Also, CUTLASS JACK AS LI FOR ME3!

[tonnactus]

Madecologist wrote...
Replay ME1 and redo the Cerberus side missions. 2) Read the second novel. To know exactly what this orginasation is truely like or capable of.

These bastards killed dozens of quarians...