89 réponses à ce sujet

[Monochrome Wench]

Samara is not Lawful good. No way. Lawful Neutral perhaps, but it's a matter of perspective. She is folowing a strict code, but if anyone stands in her way, regardless of the reason she will kill them. That she will kill a police woman who is doing her job and is doing nothing wrong says to me that she can not possibly be considered good in anyway.

[The Angry One]

Samara: Lawful Stupid

[Biotic_Warlock]

aaniadyen wrote...

Biotic_Warlock wrote...

aaniadyen wrote...

Biotic_Warlock wrote...

Does Chakwas sound like Viconia De'vir, or am i mad?

They have similar accents. That's about it.

Shepard: lets toast to trust...
Chakwas: Trust is for the foolish, and the drunk, i'd drink to that.

Oh, I never chose that option. *shrugs* Yeah. I guess so =P

It's not an option:
As EDI says... "That was a Joke"

[Llandaryn]

Miranda - Lawful Neutral

Jacob - Neutral Good

Garrus - Chaotic Good

Mordin - True Neutral

Jack - Chaotic Neutral / verging on Chaotic Evil

Grunt - Lawful Neutral

Samara - Neutral Good

Thane - True Neutral

Tali - Lawful Good

Zaeed - Chaotic Neutral

Based on : en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alignment_%28Dungeons_&_Dragons%29#Alignments

Modifié par Llandaryn, 20 février 2010 - 05:16 .

[Jlop985]

Borschtbeet wrote...

Samara-Lawful good.  She's bound to a code that commits her to benevolence.  Her code puts benevolence first even above punishing the wicked as she states that her code commits her to save an innocent even if it means letting a guilty person going free.

Wouldn't that mean she is lawful neutral? She does not deviate from her code, and any benevolence that she shows is only because her code says so.

[Speakeasy13]

Monochrome Wench wrote...

Samara is not Lawful good. No way. Lawful Neutral perhaps, but it's a matter of perspective. She is folowing a strict code, but if anyone stands in her way, regardless of the reason she will kill them. That she will kill a police woman who is doing her job and is doing nothing wrong says to me that she can not possibly be considered good in anyway.

I agree. She's not performing her Justicar duties out of the goodness of her heart, but bitter hatred towards her daughter extending into any criminal regardless of the degree of his/her crime.

She will kill innocent to get the job done. That's in no way good.

[keginkc]

Monochrome Wench wrote...

Samara is not Lawful good. No way. Lawful Neutral perhaps, but it's a matter of perspective. She is folowing a strict code, but if anyone stands in her way, regardless of the reason she will kill them. That she will kill a police woman who is doing her job and is doing nothing wrong says to me that she can not possibly be considered good in anyway.

I'd agree with that.  There is only the code.

[Borschtbeet]

Speakeasy13 wrote...

Borschtbeet wrote...

Speakeasy13 wrote...

How is Zaeed evil, or even a scumbag? Did you listen to any of his dialogues onboard Normandy or during missions? He has killed pirates and slavers, saved children along his mission and save freighters from Krogan raiders. Hell, he gives more of a damn about saving human lives than most of your squad mates. Chaotic Neutral is obviously a better suited designation for Zaeed.

Grunt is more Chaotic Neutral for me. Don't think anyone who fights for fun can be classified as "good".

Agreed with Morinth being neutral.

Any act of good he did was only because he got paid for it.  When acting on his own he puts his own selfish desires above what is best.  We saw it in his loyalty mission when he let his petty revenge come at the cost of many innocent lives.
He's a scumbag.  Not to say thats a bad thing.  I'm glad the squad in Mass Effect 2 is diverse and I liked Zaeed.

I'm afraid I must disagree with you. Even Zaeed himself admits to being blinded by rage on his loyalty mission if you paragoned him into being loyal. I don't think that one action can define his whole character. If he were really Chaotic Evil and you let his archnemesis get away, don't you think he'd asked for more money or simply shoot you in the face after you helped him out of predicament?

Again, I'd ask you to listen to some of his conversations and rethink your designation. It's apparent that he has helped people out of sheer goodwill without being paid, such as picking up a little girl on a mission from Omega and saving her. The genuine pride in such "good" actions and distaste for evil actions (i.e. using innocent people as bait, killing people for fun) that he displays during these conversations would suggest obvious enough that he is NOT an evil character.

Regarding your comments about him being paid, take him to Illium. There he'd trigger a dialogue about how much he cared about each job he's getting and that he's not concerned with only getting "paid".

He doesn't really go that far in admitting that he was wrong.  He just admits that the underlying mission was more important.  I still felt a lot of resentment from Zaeed even after going paragon on his loyalty mission.

[Borschtbeet]

Jlop985 wrote...

Borschtbeet wrote...

Samara-Lawful good.  She's bound to a code that commits her to benevolence.  Her code puts benevolence first even above punishing the wicked as she states that her code commits her to save an innocent even if it means letting a guilty person going free.

Wouldn't that mean she is lawful neutral? She does not deviate from her code, and any benevolence that she shows is only because her code says so.

Samara is personally devoted towards good and not just because of the code she follows.  That is why she tells Shepard her disapproval of his actions if he is renegade.

So she follows a code that mandates she does good and she is good at heart too.  Therefore she is lawful good.

Modifié par Borschtbeet, 20 février 2010 - 05:24 .

[Mr0TYuH]

Samara would be Lawful Neutral. In one instance, she had to let Nihilus go because an innocent in danger. In another, she would kill an innocent that get in the way of her and her target. Her code is everything, even if it leads to evil acts.

I see Grunt as Chaotic Neutral.  All he wants is a good fight.  He only follows Shepard because Shepard is a strong leader.  If Shepard became weak, Grunt would challenge him.

Modifié par Mr0TYuH, 20 février 2010 - 05:27 .

[Borschtbeet]

Speakeasy13 wrote...

Monochrome Wench wrote...

Samara is not Lawful good. No way. Lawful Neutral perhaps, but it's a matter of perspective. She is folowing a strict code, but if anyone stands in her way, regardless of the reason she will kill them. That she will kill a police woman who is doing her job and is doing nothing wrong says to me that she can not possibly be considered good in anyway.

I agree. She's not performing her Justicar duties out of the goodness of her heart, but bitter hatred towards her daughter extending into any criminal regardless of the degree of his/her crime.

She will kill innocent to get the job done. That's in no way good.

Wrong, she will not kill an innocent, her code forbids that.  She says that her code puts the life of an innocent above the justice for a criminal.

[The_mango55]

Yeah a lot of these are wrong.



Most neutral characters have good goals. Even some evil people have good goals. It's how they accomplish the goals that defines alignment.



Garrus: CG very close to N - If you let him kill Saleon and Sidonis he probably moves to N

Jack: CN very close to CE - If you get her to kill the guy she probably moves to evil.

Tali: NG

Grunt: CN - his philosophy (fight and see who is strongest) is very close to the CN god Tempus.

Morinth: NE

Miranda: LN

Jacob: NG

Mordin: N

Thane: N

Samara: LN

Legion: N

[Speakeasy13]

Borschtbeet wrote...

Speakeasy13 wrote...

Borschtbeet wrote...

Speakeasy13 wrote...

How is Zaeed evil, or even a scumbag? Did you listen to any of his dialogues onboard Normandy or during missions? He has killed pirates and slavers, saved children along his mission and save freighters from Krogan raiders. Hell, he gives more of a damn about saving human lives than most of your squad mates. Chaotic Neutral is obviously a better suited designation for Zaeed.

Grunt is more Chaotic Neutral for me. Don't think anyone who fights for fun can be classified as "good".

Agreed with Morinth being neutral.

Any act of good he did was only because he got paid for it.  When acting on his own he puts his own selfish desires above what is best.  We saw it in his loyalty mission when he let his petty revenge come at the cost of many innocent lives.
He's a scumbag.  Not to say thats a bad thing.  I'm glad the squad in Mass Effect 2 is diverse and I liked Zaeed.

I'm afraid I must disagree with you. Even Zaeed himself admits to being blinded by rage on his loyalty mission if you paragoned him into being loyal. I don't think that one action can define his whole character. If he were really Chaotic Evil and you let his archnemesis get away, don't you think he'd asked for more money or simply shoot you in the face after you helped him out of predicament?

Again, I'd ask you to listen to some of his conversations and rethink your designation. It's apparent that he has helped people out of sheer goodwill without being paid, such as picking up a little girl on a mission from Omega and saving her. The genuine pride in such "good" actions and distaste for evil actions (i.e. using innocent people as bait, killing people for fun) that he displays during these conversations would suggest obvious enough that he is NOT an evil character.

Regarding your comments about him being paid, take him to Illium. There he'd trigger a dialogue about how much he cared about each job he's getting and that he's not concerned with only getting "paid".

He doesn't really go that far in admitting that he was wrong.  He just admits that the underlying mission was more important.  I still felt a lot of resentment from Zaeed even after going paragon on his loyalty mission.

Well maybe because he didn't think he was wrong? I'm not suggesting his good, but he's neutrual. Which means in his mind the merits of killing Vido outweigh those of saving the workers. In fact, if you go renegade, he outright tells you that he thinks killing Vido would "solve more problems". In a way I have to agree. Even when I played paragon I went renegade in that mission, because Vido really deserved to die. Having outweighed both outcomes, I'd decided the renegade path was in fact the better solution.

Neutrual people will kill the innocent when the situition warrents it. Evil people just kill people for fun. I think the distinction is clear in this one.

You shouldn't consider Zaeed evil just cause ONE evil action he took, the same way Tali wouldn't think her father's evil because of his evil experimented on the Geth.

[The Angry One]

Since Zaeed created the situation in which we had to choose between Vido and the workers in the first place, he proved himself to be an evil idiot.

[Speakeasy13]

Borschtbeet wrote...

Speakeasy13 wrote...

Monochrome Wench wrote...

Samara is not Lawful good. No way. Lawful Neutral perhaps, but it's a matter of perspective. She is folowing a strict code, but if anyone stands in her way, regardless of the reason she will kill them. That she will kill a police woman who is doing her job and is doing nothing wrong says to me that she can not possibly be considered good in anyway.

I agree. She's not performing her Justicar duties out of the goodness of her heart, but bitter hatred towards her daughter extending into any criminal regardless of the degree of his/her crime.

She will kill innocent to get the job done. That's in no way good.

Wrong, she will not kill an innocent, her code forbids that.  She says that her code puts the life of an innocent above the justice for a criminal.

For example: she slaughtered an entire village just to get to Morinth.

[brain_damage]

Correction - Samara isn't Lawful Good. She's Lawful Stupid.

[vashts1985]

Biotic_Warlock wrote...

vashts1985 wrote...

lol there is no alignment in D&D anymore.

your either good, evil, or unaligned.

I dont like V.4, i prefer the 3rd one, proper spellbooks, classes everything...

while im still on the fence about 4th myself, i found some of the new stuff better and more playable than in the previous editions, but alot of the changes, such as the retardo alignment overhaul, to be undesireable.

im not into PnP as much as i used to be. played a couple 4th based games with my old group not too long ago, they seem to have adjusted well enough, but i can see why the hardcore fans of the game are QQing a bit.

[Borschtbeet]

Speakeasy13 wrote...

Borschtbeet wrote...

Speakeasy13 wrote...

Monochrome Wench wrote...

Samara is not Lawful good. No way. Lawful Neutral perhaps, but it's a matter of perspective. She is folowing a strict code, but if anyone stands in her way, regardless of the reason she will kill them. That she will kill a police woman who is doing her job and is doing nothing wrong says to me that she can not possibly be considered good in anyway.

I agree. She's not performing her Justicar duties out of the goodness of her heart, but bitter hatred towards her daughter extending into any criminal regardless of the degree of his/her crime.

She will kill innocent to get the job done. That's in no way good.

Wrong, she will not kill an innocent, her code forbids that.  She says that her code puts the life of an innocent above the justice for a criminal.

For example: she slaughtered an entire village just to get to Morinth.

I think I must've missed that part.  If it's true then I think it contradicts what she also said about putting the life of an innocent above justice for a criminal.

[Forwen]

Mordin CG? He's Lawful Neutral. Committed to maintaining balance with adherence to his own rules, but nevertheless quite objective-driven.

I like to think that True Neutral is one of Renegade's viable versions, a purely objective-driven calculating approach, but admittedly the forced nature of ME2 thuggish Renegade screws it up quite a bit. Still applicable to ME1 though.

Also I agree that Samara is Lawful Neutral. Her code might be benevolent in intent, but its her devotion that defines her (and Justicars in general) more than what she actually follows.

[Sharn01]

The reason why Samara is Lawful Nuetral is because she does not ask question's, or make morale decision's on her own.



If she see's some one commiting a crime, she will kill them, it does not matter if what she observes is out of context of the sutiuation, and if you talk to her she will admit that she does not want to know anything about the people she kill's or look outside her code for fear of the guilt she would feel if she killed a good person.



I used an example in another thread for Samara and I will use it here as well, if Samara came across a man1 beating man2 to death she will kill man1. She does not stop the fight or ask question's, she simply kill's him and moves on.



It does not matter if man1 was beating man2 because man2 had man1's daughter tied up in the next room where he was brutally raping and torturing her, had Samara stopped the fight and asked question's she would have found that out, instead she just kill's man1, and man2 gets to go back to raping and torturing once Samara has left.

[Borschtbeet]

Sharn01 wrote...

The reason why Samara is Lawful Nuetral is because she does not ask question's, or make morale decision's on her own.

If she see's some one commiting a crime, she will kill them, it does not matter if what she observes is out of context of the sutiuation, and if you talk to her she will admit that she does not want to know anything about the people she kill's or look outside her code for fear of the guilt she would feel if she killed a good person.

I used an example in another thread for Samara and I will use it here as well, if Samara came across a man1 beating man2 to death she will kill man1. She does not stop the fight or ask question's, she simply kill's him and moves on.

It does not matter if man1 was beating man2 because man2 had man1's daughter tied up in the next room where he was brutally raping and torturing her, had Samara stopped the fight and asked question's she would have found that out, instead she just kill's man1, and man2 gets to go back to raping and torturing once Samara has left.

In that case would you consider an individual who follows a code that mandates they kill innocent people to be lawful neutral?

If Samara were a robot with no free will of her own then I could understand, but she made the conscious decision to become a Justicar and she did it because she thought it was for good.  Therefore I think she is lawful good.

[apotheosic]

Space Hamster is chaotic-lawful

[Borschtbeet]

Actually I would say the hamster is true neutral as most animals are.



The fish count as true neutral as well.

[The_mango55]

Borschtbeet wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...

The reason why Samara is Lawful Nuetral is because she does not ask question's, or make morale decision's on her own.

If she see's some one commiting a crime, she will kill them, it does not matter if what she observes is out of context of the sutiuation, and if you talk to her she will admit that she does not want to know anything about the people she kill's or look outside her code for fear of the guilt she would feel if she killed a good person.

I used an example in another thread for Samara and I will use it here as well, if Samara came across a man1 beating man2 to death she will kill man1. She does not stop the fight or ask question's, she simply kill's him and moves on.

It does not matter if man1 was beating man2 because man2 had man1's daughter tied up in the next room where he was brutally raping and torturing her, had Samara stopped the fight and asked question's she would have found that out, instead she just kill's man1, and man2 gets to go back to raping and torturing once Samara has left.

In that case would you consider an individual who follows a code that mandates they kill innocent people to be lawful neutral?

If Samara were a robot with no free will of her own then I could understand, but she made the conscious decision to become a Justicar and she did it because she thought it was for good.  Therefore I think she is lawful good.

Just because she chose the code because she wants to do good doesn't mean her personal sense of right and wrong is deleted. She upholds the code no matter what her own morality and consious tells her.

That's basically the definition of lawful neutral. In fact IIRC the example they give you is of a judge who carries out sentences that are stern but fair. It doesn't matter whether her intentions were to make the galaxy a better place, many brutal warlords truly believe that under their rule the world will be better.