93 réponses à ce sujet

[jtav]

It makes sense to me. Take her on Jack's loyalty mission. She's horrified by what happens and rationalizes it by insisting it had to be a rogue op. Once she can't deny Cerberus' darker nature, she goes rogue.

[Gemini1179]

Volourn wrote...

It's very logical Miranda would tell TIM to ****** fof. She's not into mass murder - espicially of humans. remember, she was disgusted to find out what happened at Jack's old home. Throughoutt he game she uses excuses to wash Cerbeus and TIM's many sins. She finally has enough, and stops making excuses. It's called opening your eyes.

Think of it a **** soldier who is 100% loyal to Hitler, and ebcause of this is repeatedly promoted. He sees or ehars things that Hitler has done but always has an excuse to make it seem acceptable. Finally, that soldier finds out soemthing that can't simply eb white washed and then turns his back on Hitler. That's what happens to Miranda.

This and probably the simple fact that TIM asks her to kill Shepard, whom she has put more than two years of her life into had has grown to respect and trust not out of fear, but of loyalty. TIM was always pleased when Shepard gained someone's loyalty, however, I don't think he truly understands what true loyalty is.

[Bigdoser]

[/quote]

This and probably the simple fact that TIM asks her to kill Shepard, whom she has put more than two years of her life into had has grown to respect and trust not out of fear, but of loyalty. TIM was always pleased when Shepard gained someone's loyalty, however, I don't think he truly understands what true loyalty is.

[/quote]

I also agree with this too

[lltoon]

jtav wrote...

It makes sense to me. Take her on Jack's loyalty mission. She's horrified by what happens and rationalizes it by insisting it had to be a rogue op. Once she can't deny Cerberus' darker nature, she goes rogue.

But the operations going on in that Cerberus research station in itself isn't clear. In one of the consoles, the researchers also discussed about not telling TIM about the unethical research on Subject Zero.

Of course you get a private message from TIM explaining that when he found out about the illegal operations taking place in that place, he ordered it shut down.

Of course I'm not gullible to believe that message. But for someone like Miranda, the message would make sense in line with her plausiable deniability that main Cerberus organization was not deliberately involved in Jack's treatment.

[Jax Sparrow]

And STG has never done anything morally corrupt? *cough* genophage *cough*



That aside, I believe it is a combination of events where she ends up more loyal to Sheppard, than Timmy. So, I think her defection has less to do with Timmy than seeing that Sheppard is manifesting a better Cerberus than Timmy's human slurpy machine.



As for the crew? Shepp saved them from the que to goo, and I see it more as a coup than a departure.

[Jax Sparrow]

[edit double post]

Modifié par Jax Sparrow, 20 février 2010 - 07:00 .

[Jaron Oberyn]

She told him that because she saw how easily he discarded shepard if for not doing what TIM wanted him to do. Remember she says "or what, you'll replace me next?". She realizes that Cerberus isn't about advancement of humanity, but of their own interests. That combined with the loyalty to shepard for why happened to her sister.

[Srslydude01]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

As for EDI she considered herself part of the crew of the Normandy. Not TIM's agent. Once the blocks were removed she was free to make her own choices.

So there is no way TIM can just press the button that enacts EDI's unknown programming after that point in time?

[Caedmon207]

I know I'm one of the very few, but I never got around to trusting Miranda. There's something off about her.



A few things to consider: Her shooting Wilson without hesitation right at the beginning. I'm sorry, but that screams "no loose ends" to me...



Her choice of words at the end, when TIM asks her to stop Shep from destroying the base and she declines. "Or what?? You'll replace me, too?" (or something similar)

I admit, could be to referred to stopping Shep, but could also be referred to someone who was removed and replaced earlier, perhaps by Miranda.



She's got some hidden agenda, doesn't even show a soft side when you romance her. I mean, come on, a bonk in the engine-room, right near Tali's work-station?? That's just mean!!



At least Jack goes all vulnerable and sweet when she joins you;)

[The Angry One]

As an aside.. why didn't TIM want a kill-switch on Shepard again?

Seems like it might've come in handy..

[BeyondFX]

Aside from the fact that she just saw humans liquefied into reaper goop and TIM wants to save that machine, its most likely based on Shepards interaction with Miranda throughout the game and the fact that she's put so much effort into him/her. At the start shes very cocky then as you get to know her you learn she's unsure of herself and when you help her sister, someone who she cares greatly about, she probably comes to realize Shepard is someone she can really count on.



Then as others have said TIM asks her to stop Shepard at the end of all things which probably doesnt sit over well with her, among other various factors which you can probably pickup throughout the game.

[Tleining]

while i understand why she wouldn't want to be the next one to be replaced, i do worry about her sister. After all, Miranda joined Cerberus to stay hidden from her father, TIM was the one thing that kept her, and later her sister, safe and hidden. Now that she quit, what is going to happen to that sister and her family who are apparently working for one of the Companys owned by Cerberus.

[ToshiStation38]

Caedmon207 wrote...

I know I'm one of the very few, but I never got around to trusting Miranda. There's something off about her.

A few things to consider: Her shooting Wilson without hesitation right at the beginning. I'm sorry, but that screams "no loose ends" to me...

Her choice of words at the end, when TIM asks her to stop Shep from destroying the base and she declines. "Or what?? You'll replace me, too?" (or something similar)
I admit, could be to referred to stopping Shep, but could also be referred to someone who was removed and replaced earlier, perhaps by Miranda.

She's got some hidden agenda, doesn't even show a soft side when you romance her. I mean, come on, a bonk in the engine-room, right near Tali's work-station?? That's just mean!!

At least Jack goes all vulnerable and sweet when she joins you;)

Have you actually played through her romance? She shows quite a bit of vulnerability in some of the later conversations, particularly the one where she tells you to promise you won't die.

[Exile Isan]

1. If you take her on the collector ship she is conflicted over the fact that TIM set you up... and she doesn't like it. She starts to see what TIM really is here.
2. ParaShep treats her like a person not a tool to be used like TIM and her father did.
3. ParaShep will always convince Miranda to talk to her sister. Always.
4. And tying into #3, I always got the feeling that Miranda was part of Cerberus for the sole reason that they had the resources to protect and hide Oriana from her father.
5. On the collector base she finally, totally sees TIM for what he is: a power hunger jerk who wants to subjugate all other species but humans.  Many of those species to which she has gotten to know being on board the Normandy. And Miranda, if you take her on Illuim says that humans could learn a lot from asari ingenuity. Which means she's not as anti-alien as TIM is.
6. In my game she made a friend in Shepard and vice versa. Probably her first real friend who even gave a damn about her as a person. Heck yeah, she's gonna stay with Shep.

Modifié par Exile Isan, 20 février 2010 - 07:21 .

[Forwen]

There's a spanner in the works, and that's the fact that Cerberus can blow her sister's cover at any moment they damn please.



Even if she doesn't agree with keeping the base, going rogue openly effectively makes her sister Tim's hostage. If she's such a good agent, she'd somehow fake (or at least try to) obedience until the point when she can remove her sister from Cerberus' reach, not be all defiant.

[Caedmon207]

ToshiStation38 wrote...

Have you actually played through her romance? She shows quite a bit of vulnerability in some of the later conversations, particularly the one where she tells you to promise you won't die.

Humbug, she just doesn't want to see her masterpiece destroyed before she can reap the benefits. Perhaps she made some "adjustments" and "upgrades" to Shep's physiology that she wants to prevent going to waste

[Talogrungi]

She's been shepdoctrinated.

Presumably it's akin to Shep's ability to convince anybody of anything providing there is blue or red text involved.

Modifié par Talogrungi, 20 février 2010 - 07:25 .

[lltoon]

PoliteAssasin wrote...

She told him that because she saw how easily he discarded shepard if for not doing what TIM wanted him to do. Remember she says "or what, you'll replace me next?". She realizes that Cerberus isn't about advancement of humanity, but of their own interests. That combined with the loyalty to shepard for why happened to her sister.

I really don't understand how 'stop him' equates to 'I'll replace you' in Miranda's mind.

In fact, she mentions that TIM is the only person so far to appreciate her abilities. She made this distinction clear in contrast with her father, who only wants a trophy child, to be replaced later by her sister. Tim never replaced Miranda with her sister, despite her sister being genetically bred specifically to be superior to Miranda. This gives me the impression that TIM does not plan to replace Miranda for those reasons. They gave her the best training and the best education money can buy.

If anything she would have saw the 'stop him' order to be an order to stop a rogue Cerberus agent and would have went ahead to stop Shepard. She's killed Wilson without proper evidence, and she killed Niket in cold blood for doing what he thought was the right thing, so why not with Shepard?
I certainly thought blowing up the Collector base 'for the better of our species' soul' was a very flimsy argument for destroying the only piece of evidence of the Reaper threat to the council, and the opportunity to reverse-engineer Collector/Reaper technology like what the Alliance and Turians did with the Thanix Cannon from Soverign's gun. Even EDI herself wouldn't be possible without the study and salvaging of Reaper technology.

[Moleculor]

When you first talk to her at the beginning of the game, she's convinced Cerberus is awesome, but she's also convinced that Cerberus isn't evil.



Trying to keep the human smoothie machine runs contrary to that belief.

[Jalem001]

It makes sense. Its all about loyalty to Shepard. We're supposed to get the feeling that when people encounter Shepard they immediately recognize that he's something spectacular. They'll follow his commands even if it means death. He's transcends typical boundaries.

Miranda came to owe her loyalty first and foremost to Shepard. Same with the Cerberus crew. They'd follow him to hell and back, and all those other cliched things.

Modifié par Jalem001, 20 février 2010 - 07:32 .

[Exile Isan]

Forwen wrote...

There's a spanner in the works, and that's the fact that Cerberus can blow her sister's cover at any moment they damn please.

Even if she doesn't agree with keeping the base, going rogue openly effectively makes her sister Tim's hostage. If she's such a good agent, she'd somehow fake (or at least try to) obedience until the point when she can remove her sister from Cerberus' reach, not be all defiant.

And my Shep's got all that info about Cerberus (that you uploaded from one of the N7 missions) just waiting to be given to Emily Wong. He even thinks about hurting Oriana or her family and all his power is toast. Not to mention that EDI says resurrecting Shepard and rebuilding the Normandy has sucked up almost all of TIM's resources... so basically by taking the SR2 you've bankrupted him.

lltoon wrote...
I really don't understand how 'stop him' equates to 'I'll replace you' in Miranda's mind.

In fact, she mentions that TIM is the only person so far to appreciate her abilities. She made this distinction clear in contrast with her father, who only wants a trophy child, to be replaced later by her sister. Tim never replaced Miranda with her sister, despite her sister being genetically bred specifically to be superior to Miranda. This gives me the impression that TIM does not plan to replace Miranda for those reasons. They gave her the best training and the best education money can buy.

This goes back to what I said before TIM may appreciate Miranda's abilities, hell so does my Shep, but TIM never saw her as a person only a tool to be used. ParaShep does see her as a person and tells her so. Seeing TIM use Shepard as a tool gets Miranda thinking about how he uses her as a tool, just like her father did.

I think it's interesting that Miranda didn't trust Cerberus enough to escort her sister on Illium, but she trust Shepard enough. Says a lot about Miranda and Cerberus if you ask me.

Modifié par Exile Isan, 20 février 2010 - 07:47 .

[ILALQ]

Forwen wrote...

There's a spanner in the works, and that's the fact that Cerberus can blow her sister's cover at any moment they damn please.

Even if she doesn't agree with keeping the base, going rogue openly effectively makes her sister Tim's hostage. If she's such a good agent, she'd somehow fake (or at least try to) obedience until the point when she can remove her sister from Cerberus' reach, not be all defiant.

The only way for her to stay in TiM's good graces after he directly orders her to stop Shep would be to do just that - stop Shep. If she could even manage it. 

As for her sister, maybe it's a plot hole, maybe it was intentional, maybe she figures her sister can take care of herself, or maybe she just finds the lives of millions of humans to be worth more than her sister. Even if she just reunited with her.

[Ulicus]

jtav wrote...

It makes sense to me. Take her on Jack's loyalty mission. She's horrified by what happens and rationalizes it by insisting it had to be a rogue op. Once she can't deny Cerberus' darker nature, she goes rogue.

Except when she justifies stuff like the rachni, thorian creepers and husks.

She's not an idiot. She knows full well that Cerberus crosses the line: "All the time, yes". She simply thinks the lines crossed are worth it.

Does she change over the course of the game? To an extent, certainly...  and it's clear that keeping the collector base was a line too far, but lets not have a Miranda whitewash, please.

[Tankfriend]

lltoon wrote...
I really don't understand how 'stop him' equates to 'I'll replace you' in Miranda's mind.

In fact, she mentions that TIM is the only person so far to appreciate her abilities. She made this distinction clear in contrast with her father, who only wants a trophy child, to be replaced later by her sister. Tim never replaced Miranda with her sister, despite her sister being genetically bred specifically to be superior to Miranda. This gives me the impression that TIM does not plan to replace Miranda for those reasons. They gave her the best training and the best education money can buy.

TIM has spent 4 BILLION credits to bring Shepard back to life. The moment Shepard does not do TIMs bidding, TIM wants Miranda to stop Shepard. I daresay that the Lazarus Project most likely was by far more expensive than Miranda's entire past yet TIM does not care. The tool has lost its value so it has to be "stopped" (which in Cerberus terms most likely means "killed"). Taking that into account, why should Miranda not assume that the very same thing would happen to her once she does not do what TIM wants? Especially as she is far less an investment than Shepard?

She's killed Wilson without proper evidence,

We don't know if Miranda had any more evidence than we do but it could be possible. Apart from that, there are more than enough hints to at least suspect Wilson of being a traitor.
a) The various logs that state that he was not getting the credit he thought due.
His reaction to Shepard being alive, awake and with Jacob ("How the hell?!")
c) The entire situation with him being wounded. No mechs whatsoever present there that could have wounded him, no destroyed mechs either. He also should not have the security mech clearance, as Jacob says.

and she killed Niket in cold blood for doing what he thought was the right thing,

Shepard can prevent Miranda from shooting Niket. After that fight, she is even sorry for what happened to him if I remember correctly.

[Druss99]

He left the toilet seat up. Repeatedly.