93 réponses à ce sujet

[Cpl_Facehugger]

On the Normandy crew - I can definitely see why they'd choose Shep over TIM. I mean, they've seen what happens on that base first hand and were only saved from smoothieification by Shep.



Miranda is a bit trickier. I figured that interacting with Shepard slowly eroded her faith in Cerberus. Especially taking her on Jack's loyalty mission. There's got to be a niggling doubt in the back of her mind that says "maybe TIM did know about this place...", then combine that with being betrayed on the collector ship, and with one thing she can't possibly rationalize away as being a "rogue operation" or anything.



TIM demanding to keep the base isn't something she can explain away or sweep under the rug.

[Forwen]

Exile Isan wrote...

And my Shep's got all that info about Cerberus (that you uploaded from one of the N7 missions) just waiting to be given to Emily Wong. He even thinks about hurting Oriana or her family and all his power is toast. Not to mention that EDI says resurrecting Shepard and rebuilding the Normandy has sucked up almost all of TIM's resources... so basically by taking the SR2 you've bankrupted him.

I don't deny that there's room for interesting intel wars. I believe that Oriana is a powerful tool in Tim's hands, and a considerable weakness in Miranda as an ally.

*shrug* It would probably end up being a close rehash of her loyalty mission, with Miranda once again wanting to wrestle Oriana away from someone, Tim being the new villain. "Yeah Shepard I agree with ya, but if you want me 100% focused you better save my sis!".

[marshalleck]

Ulicus wrote...

jtav wrote...

It makes sense to me. Take her on Jack's loyalty mission. She's horrified by what happens and rationalizes it by insisting it had to be a rogue op. Once she can't deny Cerberus' darker nature, she goes rogue.

Except when she justifies stuff like the rachni, thorian creepers and husks.

She's not an idiot. She knows full well that Cerberus crosses the line: "All the time, yes". She simply thinks the lines crossed are worth it.

Does she change over the course of the game? To an extent, certainly...  and it's clear that keeping the collector base was a line too far, but lets not have a Miranda whitewash, please.

Knowing now what she does of TIM and Cerberus, it's certainly possible that she would wholely disapprove of those actions were she to revisit her opinions of them. It's an inherent component of character development that a character could reach a different conclusion from the same set of data.

Believing that creating an army of mindless rachni drones could save the lives of human soldiers, she's in favor of it. When those drones are being used in the personal service of TIM's private army? Suddenly the pretense is not as noble.

Modifié par marshalleck, 20 février 2010 - 07:55 .

[Moleculor]

Ulicus wrote...

Except when she justifies stuff like the rachni, thorian creepers and husks.

Those were attempts to train animals. Training animals to fight for you isn't inherently evil. It's a struggle to save lives, even.

(Before you go off on a tangent about the rachni, go back and play ME1, and you'll note that the assumption was that rachni drones were as intelligent as bees, not sentient in and of themselves. They later learn their error, and state they should abandon the project because of it.)

[lltoon]

Tankfriend wrote...

lltoon wrote...
I really don't understand how 'stop him' equates to 'I'll replace you' in Miranda's mind.

In fact, she mentions that TIM is the only person so far to appreciate her abilities. She made this distinction clear in contrast with her father, who only wants a trophy child, to be replaced later by her sister. Tim never replaced Miranda with her sister, despite her sister being genetically bred specifically to be superior to Miranda. This gives me the impression that TIM does not plan to replace Miranda for those reasons. They gave her the best training and the best education money can buy.

TIM has spent 4 BILLION credits to bring Shepard back to life. The moment Shepard does not do TIMs bidding, TIM wants Miranda to stop Shepard. I daresay that the Lazarus Project most likely was by far more expensive than Miranda's entire past yet TIM does not care. The tool has lost its value so it has to be "stopped" (which in Cerberus terms most likely means "killed"). Taking that into account, why should Miranda not assume that the very same thing would happen to her once she does not do what TIM wants? Especially as she is far less an investment than Shepard?

She's killed Wilson without proper evidence,

We don't know if Miranda had any more evidence than we do but it could be possible. Apart from that, there are more than enough hints to at least suspect Wilson of being a traitor.
a) The various logs that state that he was not getting the credit he thought due.
His reaction to Shepard being alive, awake and with Jacob ("How the hell?!")
c) The entire situation with him being wounded. No mechs whatsoever present there that could have wounded him, no destroyed mechs either. He also should not have the security mech clearance, as Jacob says.

and she killed Niket in cold blood for doing what he thought was the right thing,

Shepard can prevent Miranda from shooting Niket. After that fight, she is even sorry for what happened to him if I remember correctly.

The evidence for Wilson's betrayal is also circumstantial. Espectially
since it would have been better to take Wilson hostage and interrogate
him in a Cerberus cell.

But what irks me, is that even though Shepard can stop her from killing Niket, it just goes to show that Miranda is willing to kill people and even close friends that she has known for years in order to get things her way.

Although Miranda's reason for killing Niket is to protect her sister, I still find that move a very selfish one to make. Because if she was given the option to shoot Shepard in the face in order to save her sister, she would do it.

That makes her no different to Cerberus and Mercs, who generally kill for their own profit or benefit.

Modifié par lltoon, 20 février 2010 - 08:03 .

[Madecologist]

Yes, remember TIM is good at putting up the face he needs to get people to work for him. With Jacob he has a hate/hate relationship where both are 'honest' to each other. With Miranda he probably has an image of what is good for humanity and everyone can make their own worth ("they give me the resources and says go do it" I think is Miranda's line). Even Shepard, your Entire crew is filled with people TIM recruited for the sole purpose to give Cerberus a good image. The overly 'loving' yeoman, two engineers that always believed in Shepard, a typical blue colar worker for cook and plumbing, and crew members that have a stake in the coming conflict. Type of people that would serve on a normal ship except each having a connection to either the missing colonies or to Shepard.

Even the way TIM plays to Shepard. Giving him the support he needs and when caught being Illusive, coming forward with what he was hiding and why. He is playing Shepard too. Heck, look at his emails he sends you, "I have confidence in your abilities Shepard. You will make the right judgement."

So at the end, he gives you his big recommandation, hoping that by now you are willing to go along with it. When you refuse he tries to... lack of better term emotionally blackmail you. Miranda does not like what she saw and agrees that the base needs to be destroyed. When she sees that TIM was ready to dispose of you, despite you actually succeeded at everything that was asked of you. She finally understood the truth about TIM. "So you can replace me too when I become inconvinient." Miranda is the Loyalist. In the puriest form. A Loyalist expects loyalty in return.

Modifié par Madecologist, 20 février 2010 - 08:03 .

[marshalleck]

lltoon wrote...

The evidence for Wilson's betrayal is also circumstantial. Espectially
since it would have been better to take Wilson hostage and interrogate
him in a Cerberus cell.

But what irks me, is that even though Shepard can stop her from killing Niket, it just goes to show that Miranda is willing to kill people and even close friends that she has known for years in order to get things her way.

Even though Miranda's reason for killing Niket is to protect her sister, I still find that move a very selfish one to make. Because if she was given the option to shoot Shepard in the face in order to save her sister, she would do it.

That makes her no different to Cerberus and Mercs, who generally kill for their own profit or benefit.

She'd do it to protect her sister, but it was not a decision she was happy to make. It wasn't killing for fun and profit. Shepard kills to protect others as well (Shiala) and sometimes just for lulz (Fist, and the Eclipse merc in Thane's recruitment mission)

Modifié par marshalleck, 20 février 2010 - 08:10 .

[Ulicus]

marshalleck wrote...

Knowing now what she does of TIM and Cerberus, it's certainly possible that she would wholely disapprove of those actions were she to revisit her opinions of them. It's an inherent component of character development that a character could reach a different conclusion from the same set of data.

Believing that creating an army of mindless rachni drones could save the linves of human soldiers, she's in favor of it. When those drones are being used in the personal service of TIM's private army? Suddenly the pretense is not as noble.

I objected to the suggestion that whenever Cerberus crossed the line or did something "dark", she explained it away as it being  a rogue cell. She didn't. Miranda, unlike - say - Kelly, isn't a naive muppet. She knows that bad things go on. Does she have misconceptions about Cerberus' goals? Yes. Is she probably the leader of the most moderate of Cerberus' cells? Again, yes. But she's shown herself to be pretty darn ruthless and anyone who can justify the use of husks, in particular, is worth being wary around. It doesn't really matter what she thought those husks were for.

I'm not saying she's "evil", or a "bad guy"... but I'd be extremely hesitant to slap a white hat on that pretty head of hers and excuse her support of Cerberus entirely. She's not a Cerberus peon, she's a leader who answers directly to TIM.

Moleculor wrote...
(Before you go off on a tangent about the rachni, go back and play ME1, and you'll note that the assumption was that rachni drones were as intelligent as bees, not sentient in and of themselves. They later learn their error, and state they should abandon the project because of it.)

Thanks, but I don't need to "go back". If you'd like the specifics, the Cerberus agent reporting on the audio-log
said they should have treated the Rachni like prisoners of war instead of animals. You'll notice this is very different to "we shouldn't have done it". However, by the time they realised that, it was too late, so they ended up saying "screw it".

They pointedly didn't abandon the project because of the ethical dimension.

That said, I can buy that Miranda believed that they did.

Modifié par Ulicus, 20 février 2010 - 08:23 .

[lltoon]

marshalleck wrote...

lltoon wrote...

The evidence for Wilson's betrayal is also circumstantial. Espectially
since it would have been better to take Wilson hostage and interrogate
him in a Cerberus cell.

But what irks me, is that even though Shepard can stop her from killing Niket, it just goes to show that Miranda is willing to kill people and even close friends that she has known for years in order to get things her way.

Even though Miranda's reason for killing Niket is to protect her sister, I still find that move a very selfish one to make. Because if she was given the option to shoot Shepard in the face in order to save her sister, she would do it.

That makes her no different to Cerberus and Mercs, who generally kill for their own profit or benefit.

She'd do it to protect her sister. Shepard kills to protect others as well (Shiala) and sometimes just for lulz (Fist, and the Eclipse merc in Thane's recruitment mission)

I really see Shepard's reasons for killing people are for a reason bigger than himself and his personal goals in life, he has to stop the reapers. (or at least, this is how I play my Shepard) Getting rid of these people who are obstacles to your mission will ultimately allow you to stop the Reapers and save billions of lives.

Miranda only has her sister. Apart from the obvious personal reasons, what other good will saving her sister justify killing so many people? The number of people she kills is disproportionate to the 1 life she intends to save.

[marshalleck]

lltoon wrote...

Miranda only has her sister. Apart from the obvious personal reasons, what other good will saving her sister justify killing so many people? The number of people she kills is disproportionate to the 1 life she intends to save.

Exactly, she has only her sister who is the closest person in her...unusual...family that anchors her to a sense of having a normal life. She'd kill to protect that. Her motivation is leagues beyond that of a merc who casually engages in killing for credits. You can't just say "okay well beside that HUGE motivation, lololol"

I mean, I might as well say aside from the Reapers, what gives Shepard a license to be an ass? What a jerk he is.

Modifié par marshalleck, 20 février 2010 - 08:25 .

[Tankfriend]

lltoon wrote...
The evidence for Wilson's betrayal is also circumstantial. Espectially
since it would have been better to take Wilson hostage and interrogate
him in a Cerberus cell.

That is exactly what Shepard also states and I won't argue on that because I readily agree on that point. The thing is that those pieces of evidence are what we are stuck with, whether we like it or not.

But what irks me, is that even though Shepard can stop her from killing Niket, it just goes to show that Miranda is willing to kill people and even close friends that she has known for years in order to get things her way. Although Miranda's reason for killing Niket is to protect her sister, I
still find that move a very selfish one to make. Because if she was
given the option to shoot Shepard in the face in order to save her
sister, she would do it.

I think it should not be that large a surprise that Miranda would readily shoot Niket. Remember, she herself says that Niket is about the only real friend she has ever had in her entire life (so she does not even count TIM and Cerberus in, despite what they have done for her) and that he is the absolutely last person she would have ever expected to betray her. That would go quite some way to freak out just about anyone, I guess - there are more than enough real-life cases where extreme emotional stress can cause the most extreme and out-of-hand reactions. And that is what I think happens to Miranda in that scene. Concerning shooting Shepard: I guess that is down to how the relationship between the two will develop in the future. It might very well be that Miranda let go of her sister at one point, especially as she now knows that her sister is quite capable herself(at least that is what she has learned if she talked to her sister - they are much alike, afterall).

[The Angry One]

My Shep got her license to be an ass from the New York Academy of Assh@ttery.
What do YOU have?

Modifié par The Angry One, 20 février 2010 - 08:28 .

[Adon 9]

I think the whole 'rogue op' thing is essentially TIM's ticket to deniability. EDI states that he oversees every Cerberus operation, and specifically keeps the number manageable so that he doesn't spread himself too thin. He also cares more about results than anything else. A recording in Jack's loyalty mission has them saying TIM doesn't know the specifics, but if they get results he won't care. Basically, this appears to be how he keeps loyalty among those agents who have some scruples... if one of the darker operations gets exposed, he can always say, "Oh, they went rogue."



In Miranda's case, especially with Jack's mission, she's basically confronted with the fact that the 'rogue op' excuse is just that, an excuse. When it becomes a pattern, one has to wonder just how 'rogue' these ops are, which I believe she does in the end.

[lltoon]

Tankfriend wrote...

lltoon wrote...
The evidence for Wilson's betrayal is also circumstantial. Espectially
since it would have been better to take Wilson hostage and interrogate
him in a Cerberus cell.

That is exactly what Shepard also states and I won't argue on that because I readily agree on that point. The thing is that those pieces of evidence are what we are stuck with, whether we like it or not.

But what irks me, is that even though Shepard can stop her from killing Niket, it just goes to show that Miranda is willing to kill people and even close friends that she has known for years in order to get things her way. Although Miranda's reason for killing Niket is to protect her sister, I
still find that move a very selfish one to make. Because if she was
given the option to shoot Shepard in the face in order to save her
sister, she would do it.

I think it should not be that large a surprise that Miranda would readily shoot Niket. Remember, she herself says that Niket is about the only real friend she has ever had in her entire life (so she does not even count TIM and Cerberus in, despite what they have done for her) and that he is the absolutely last person she would have ever expected to betray her. That would go quite some way to freak out just about anyone, I guess - there are more than enough real-life cases where extreme emotional stress can cause the most extreme and out-of-hand reactions. And that is what I think happens to Miranda in that scene. Concerning shooting Shepard: I guess that is down to how the relationship between the two will develop in the future. It might very well be that Miranda let go of her sister at one point, especially as she now knows that her sister is quite capable herself(at least that is what she has learned if she talked to her sister - they are much alike, afterall).

I'd be hard pressed to side with Miranda on the issue of betrayal because Niket was helping Miranda based on the misinformation Miranda gave him about her father wanting to kidnap her sister.

Then for some reason or another Miranda tells him the actual truth that her sister is really her twin sister and she took her from her father. Niket justifiably feels lied to, especially since she chose the time to reveal this when he is already wait deep in this problem.

Like Shepard blowing up the collector base, Niket wasn't willing to compromise who he is, as he saw the kidnapping of her sister morally wrong in his book. So on this new information, he chose to do what he thought was right.

What did he get out of it, Miranda pulls a gun on him and kills him without any empathy that she was the one who compelled Niket to help her based on a distorted truth about who her sister really is.

[Digifi]

I'm pretty sure Miranda turns on TIM because of his increasingly erratic behavior (at least compared with her ideals of Cerberus) and dubious base of knowledge which is not well explained when supposedly "rogue" ops are terminated and yet their findings live on. Perhaps if he'd stayed closer to his original incarnation she would've stayed loyal to TIM instead of Shep...

[marshalleck]

lltoon wrote...

What did he get out of it, Miranda pulls a gun on him and kills him without any empathy that she was the one who compelled Niket to help her based on a distorted truth about who her sister really is.

You can stop her and she thanks you for it later when she's had time to cool down.

Modifié par marshalleck, 20 février 2010 - 08:44 .

[Madecologist]

I think Martin Sheen needs an Oscar for this. When the -players- trust and believe in the Illusive Man. I know he is a good master manipulator, but this is epic how many people can't believe just how.. ummm manipulative he can be. Maybe they never did the ME1 side missions, maybe never read the novel (many don't), but even then.. doesn't the game.. hint to what they really are like?

[marshalleck]

Madecologist wrote...

I think Martin Sheen needs an Oscar for this. When the -players- trust and believe in the Illusive Man. I know he is a good master manipulator, but this is epic how many people can't believe just how.. ummm manipulative he can be. Maybe they never did the ME1 side missions, maybe never read the novel (many don't), but even then.. doesn't the game.. hint to what they really are like?

Or some people like to play a Shepard that agrees with TIM's goal, so there's no problem at all there. This is about Miranda, not TIM.

[Madecologist]

marshalleck wrote...

lltoon wrote...

What did he get out of it, Miranda pulls a gun on him and kills him without any empathy that she was the one who compelled Niket to help her based on a distorted truth about who her sister really is.

You can stop her and she thanks you for it later when she's had time to cool down.

Exactly!

Also, you can hear it in her voice, she doesn't want to do it. She really doesn't want to. I would say, claiming she had no 'empathy' (not sure that is the right word for it) in her action is a little extreme.

[lltoon]

Madecologist wrote...

I think Martin Sheen needs an Oscar for this. When the -players- trust and believe in the Illusive Man. I know he is a good master manipulator, but this is epic how many people can't believe just how.. ummm manipulative he can be. Maybe they never did the ME1 side missions, maybe never read the novel (many don't), but even then.. doesn't the game.. hint to what they really are like?

I actually don't even trust TIM to even do my laundry.

I'm just funked out by Miranda's sudden change in behaviour during the last moments of the last mission where you had to save or destroy the Collector base. It's just so sudden.

[marshalleck]

lltoon wrote...

Madecologist wrote...

I think Martin Sheen needs an Oscar for this. When the -players- trust and believe in the Illusive Man. I know he is a good master manipulator, but this is epic how many people can't believe just how.. ummm manipulative he can be. Maybe they never did the ME1 side missions, maybe never read the novel (many don't), but even then.. doesn't the game.. hint to what they really are like?

I actually don't even trust TIM to even do my laundry.

I'm just funked out by Miranda's sudden change in behaviour during the last moments of the last mission where you had to save or destroy the Collector base. It's just so sudden.

It's really not sudden at all unless you just ignore her. Which you're free to do I guess.

[Skilled Seeker]

What if Miranda isn't loyal? Will she turn on you?

[Beerfish]

Not sure if this has been mentioned in this thread but if you recall she gets an implied dressing down from TIM after the Jacob mission for her liberal interpretation of security protocol. Also I think there is something to the early Shep renegade option of Shep asking Miranda if she is upset she has been replaced as #1 underling by Shepard. TIM also does set Sheps team up on more than one occasions. Miranda is loyal but not blindly loyal, especially since she is with the Shep crew for a while out from under Tims thumb.

[Gill Kaiser]

lltoon wrote...

jtav wrote...

It makes sense to me. Take her on Jack's loyalty mission. She's horrified by what happens and rationalizes it by insisting it had to be a rogue op. Once she can't deny Cerberus' darker nature, she goes rogue.

But the operations going on in that Cerberus research station in itself isn't clear. In one of the consoles, the researchers also discussed about not telling TIM about the unethical research on Subject Zero.

Actually, the researcher log is worded ambiguously. All it says is that they aren't telling the Illusive Man... something. Miranda assumes that they were talking about the unethical treatment of their test subjects, but for all we know they could have been talking about giving the children beds after the Illusive Man told them to keep them in cages, or something.

[Tankfriend]

lltoon wrote...
Like Shepard blowing up the collector base,
Niket wasn't willing to compromise who he is, as he saw the kidnapping
of her sister morally wrong in his book. So on this new information, he
chose to do what he thought was right.

What did he get out of
it, Miranda pulls a gun on him and kills him without any empathy that
she was the one who compelled Niket to help her based on a distorted
truth about who her sister really is.

I can fully understand that Niket did not want to go through with what he has done due to Mirandas misinformation but we cannot use Nikets reasonings for discussing Mirandas motivation to possibly shoot him later. The thing is that Miranda only told Niket the full story later on because she believed that Niket would fully understand and back the reasoning behind her actions anyway, since he has done a similar (from Mirandas point of view) thing for herself before. As we can see in the scene with Miranda and Niket, he did not accept Mirandas actions, because he deemed the "rightful" place to live (i.e. Oriana with her father) and a life in wealth more important for Oriana while conveniently ignoring that a similar thing could happen to Oriana as has happened to Miranda (i.e. life completely determined by the father etc.) The thing is: If you interrupt Miranda before she shoots Niket, Niket actually will see the reasoning behind Mirandas actions in the ensuing discussion and he decides not go through with taking Oriana back to her father because he then understands that a life of freedom and self-determination can be far more important than a life of wealth. Not even to mention that taking her away from her "new" family would not really be any better than it was on the first occasion.

Modifié par Tankfriend, 20 février 2010 - 09:05 .