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[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

I was romancing Alistair and once, leliana and him had a dialogue that sounded a bit flirty, and it didn't bother me. And of course, I laughed at Al;istair's reaction when leliana started talking about Morrigan's boobs and how pretty she was. I actually think Alistair is kinda cute when he has flirtatious dialogue with others, because he's a little dense about such matters and it's quite funny.



But Wynne's little bit was just a little too creepy.

[Sabriana]

Maria Caliban wrote...

They gave Wynne a different writer in Return to Ostigar, who obviously didn't know the character. Simple as that.

And it is of course to much to ask that the writers collaborate. Getting the char creators input is somehow too 'expensive. Got it. Thank you.
I'm sorry, Maria, but that's a very poor excuse.

Modifié par Sabriana, 20 février 2010 - 10:23 .

[fightright2]

It wouldn't have been so bad if Wynne did it early on toward Alistair when he's not in a romance with the Warden, BEFORE he tells her that she is like a grandmother and BEFORE she tells him of her son.

Cause you just can't come back from "creepy" once all those conversations have taken place.

[melkathi]

Herr Uhl wrote...

*wades through Wynne-hater crowd* Man, you're all over the forums these days.

Yup.
It's Expansion time!
The Awakening of Wynne-hate!
Though in the discussions on the forum you usually see the Origins of Wynne-hate


Bad-pun-day :innocent:

[Maria Caliban]

Cazlee wrote...

Edit: This makes sense.

Maria Caliban wrote...
They gave Wynne a different writer in Return to Ostigar, who obviously didn't know the character. Simple as that.

But Alistair was off too. He was calling Wynne old in RTO and he never does that in the DA:O banter. He always tells her that she's not old. He is charming and kind to her, not once is he rude or blunt. 

David wrote Alistair in Origins. David has nothing to do with Return to Ostigar.

Sabriana wrote...

And it is of course to much to ask that the writers collaborate. Getting the char creators input is somehow too 'expensive. Got it. Thank you.
I'm sorry, Maria, but that's a very poor excuse.

Excuse for what?

Wynne was out of character in Return to Ostigar. I assumed people would like to know why. Different writers have different takes on characters.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 20 février 2010 - 11:18 .

[fightright2]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Cazlee wrote...

Edit: This makes sense.

Maria Caliban wrote...
They gave Wynne a different writer in Return to Ostigar, who obviously didn't know the character. Simple as that.

But Alistair was off too. He was calling Wynne old in RTO and he never does that in the DA:O banter. He always tells her that she's not old. He is charming and kind to her, not once is he rude or blunt. 

David wrote Alistair in Origins. David has nothing to do with Return to Ostigar.

Sabriana wrote...

And it is of course to much to ask that the writers collaborate. Getting the char creators input is somehow too 'expensive. Got it. Thank you.
I'm sorry, Maria, but that's a very poor excuse.

Excuse for what?

Wynne was out of character in Return to Ostigar. I assumed people would like to know why. Different writers have different takes on characters.

I agree that different writers have different takes on characters but David is the lead writer and they should have ran it by him first. That way the characters would have been consistent and there wouldn't be so much hypocritical mistakes that makes Wynne lose friendship points with US!

Again, I say, you just can't come back from creepy over the son/grandma flirtation thing. Not to mention the flirtation can also be regarded as a knife in hand while your back is turned. Especially, after all her "advice" that you should end it with Alistair.
It just seems like after all that work on getting the characters to come alive and across the way David meant to, it should have been important to come across him since it can and  HAS quite easily been undone.

I really wonder if David Gaider meant for us to view Wynne soley as a grandmotherlytype  to us instead of seeing her flirtatiousness as in treacherous light.

[Maria Caliban]

David was the lead writer on Origins. Rob Bartel is the lead writer and the lead designer on Return to Ostigar. I don't think David is his boss, so I doubt Rob would need to run anything by David.

David wrote Alistair in Origins. Sheryl wrote Wynne for Origins and the codex entries for the DLC. She’s not a lead writer or even a senior writer, so I’m not sure why anyone would think to run something by her.

As someone who’s a huge comic book fan, I think I’m just used to characters suddenly acting differently when a new creative team handles them. Different writers come at different characters in different ways. Imagine a Chris Avallone version of Alistair.

If you see this as being part of Wynne’s personality, you’re right. If others find this out of character and want to discard it, they’re right as well.

[Godak]

Maria Caliban wrote...

If you see this as being part of Wynne’s personality, you’re right. If others find this out of character and want to discard it, they’re right as well.

So, everybody's right, and everybody's wrong?

If I suddenly get a brain tumor, it's your fault...

Modifié par Godak, 21 février 2010 - 12:11 .

[Herr Uhl]

Godak wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

If you see this as being part of Wynne’s personality, you’re right. If others find this out of character and want to discard it, they’re right as well.

So, everybody's right, and everybody's wrong?

Damn you relativity, damn you to hell! *shakes fist*

[fightright2]

But is it really asking too much to be consistent? And if there is a sudden change in a character then give us a legitimate reason as to why so we can chalk it up to perhaps character growth.

[Chasseresse]

fightright2 wrote...

But is it really asking too much to be consistent? And if there is a sudden change in a character then give us a legitimate reason as to why so we can chalk it up to perhaps character growth.

This.

It would be like if Sten started dancing around the camp and singing or Morrigan suddenly adopted a litterful of kittens. Wynne's super-cougar behavior at RTO just made no sense in comparison to how she acted the rest of the game.

[fightright2]

Chasseresse wrote...

fightright2 wrote...

But is it really asking too much to be consistent? And if there is a sudden change in a character then give us a legitimate reason as to why so we can chalk it up to perhaps character growth.

This.

It would be like if Sten started dancing around the camp and singing or Morrigan suddenly adopted a litterful of kittens. Wynne's super-cougar behavior at RTO just made no sense in comparison to how she acted the rest of the game.

lol. Super-cougar Wynne!

[Herr Uhl]

Chasseresse wrote...

fightright2 wrote...

But is it really asking too much to be consistent? And if there is a sudden change in a character then give us a legitimate reason as to why so we can chalk it up to perhaps character growth.

This.

It would be like if Sten started dancing around the camp and singing or Morrigan suddenly adopted a litterful of kittens. Wynne's super-cougar behavior at RTO just made no sense in comparison to how she acted the rest of the game.

Or Sten cuddling with kittens and loving cookies.

Seriously, what are they doing at bioware?

[Babymax]

fightright2 wrote...

... give us a legitimate reason as to why so we can chalk it up to perhaps character growth.

Character growth? How about simple bonding that develops over time. You know, that thing people do when they've been through good times and bad with each other and decide to let their guard down a little at a time, even if there's that chance you'll be ridiculed or shunned.

Also, ITT: players who can't wrap their heads around the possibility Wynne still has a functioning sex drive and that *gasp* another character might find her desirable.

As straight as I am, I've been hit on by gay guys, older women, way much younger women, and others I never expected it from at first. So, what? That's just human nature. To be fair, I also find lots of those people attractive even when I'm already with someone else.

[seren2]

Hmmm......

Now if that simple little TIC flirting bothered you, do not go and read or play some of our old mods for BG2 or NWN. And some of the banter in MMUD used to get real bad after midnight. Or try hanging out with some of us old folks......



Now I do not get "hit on" like Babymax says, but then I am old and ugly and a biker. But we have a lot of fun poking at folks.

Now Sten and the cookies and kittens, I get that.

You act one way with your kids and pets, but another on the job.....





There are quite a few of us old folks that are combat vets and been around a bit, but when we are teaching sunday school or on a toys for tots run, we might look a little soft.

Just a little mellower now, maybe.



BabyMax is right on target with his post.

Though I think Fightright2 has a valid point about different writers, if that is the case.

And Chasseresse in pointing out the lack of TIC in the OC, good point. A little more in the banter would liven the game up a bit......



Great game though, Thoroughly enjoying it.......

I give DOA 10 out 10.

[Addai]

Babymax wrote...

Also, ITT: players who can't wrap their heads around the possibility Wynne still has a functioning sex drive and that *gasp* another character might find her desirable.
 

Uh, no.  Not all of us are teenagers.  The point is that it is out-of-character and, in context, creepy.  I don't think you've been reading the posts here at all if you just want to chalk it up to age-ism.

I just re-did the ending of my HNF run, the one that had the "WTF" experience I described above with this little interlude, and this time I didn't complete Wynne's personal quest. What did Alistair do but ask Wynne to stay on as court mage!  I thought she was supposed to go back to the Circle??  Sooo, the WTF goes on.  I used to think Wynne might be a resource to help with the heir-making problem, but now... gah!!  She is not getting anywhere near the royal bedchamber, I don't care how many fertility spells she's got up her sleeve.

*joins Skadi and Oghren in getting pi** drunk rather than continue to think about this*

Modifié par Addai67, 21 février 2010 - 07:28 .

[Sabriana]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Cazlee wrote...

Edit: This makes sense.

Maria Caliban wrote...
They gave Wynne a different writer in Return to Ostigar, who obviously didn't know the character. Simple as that.

But Alistair was off too. He was calling Wynne old in RTO and he never does that in the DA:O banter. He always tells her that she's not old. He is charming and kind to her, not once is he rude or blunt. 

David wrote Alistair in Origins. David has nothing to do with Return to Ostigar.

Sabriana wrote...

And it is of course to much to ask that the writers collaborate. Getting the char creators input is somehow too 'expensive. Got it. Thank you.
I'm sorry, Maria, but that's a very poor excuse.

Excuse for what?

Wynne was out of character in Return to Ostigar. I assumed people would like to know why. Different writers have different takes on characters.

I apologize, I misunderstood. But I think it's quite clear that the DLC creators spent little time getting to know the base game, including the characters.
Whoever thought that making the elderly mage coming on to a very young Warden at a place that should be gut-wrenching and sad, was a grand idea needs a vacation.

[MorGothic]

melkathi wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

*wades through Wynne-hater crowd* Man, you're all over the forums these days.

Yup.
It's Expansion time!
Wynne-hate: The Awakening!
Though in the discussions on the forum you usually see the  Wynne-hate: Origins


Bad-pun-day :innocent:

Fixed that for you.

[errant_knight]

I found it neither out of character, or disturbing. Wynne shows a sense of humor on sexual matters throughout the game and a particular enjoyment of teasing Alistair about things that make him blush.



As for the time and place, humor is a human response at the most unlikely times. It's how we keep going when things get bad. I also find it quite believable that Wynne would want to distract Alistair from thinking too much about being on the field where Duncan died once the fighting was over and he'd have time to dwell.

[melkathi]

MorGothic wrote...

melkathi wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

*wades through Wynne-hater crowd* Man, you're all over the forums these days.

Yup.
It's Expansion time!
Wynne-hate: The Awakening!
Though in the discussions on the forum you usually see the  Wynne-hate: Origins


Bad-pun-day :innocent:

Fixed that for you.

Thanks. Had considered writting it that way at first. Couldn'd decide though

[Addai]

errant_knight wrote...

I found it neither out of character, or disturbing. Wynne shows a sense of humor on sexual matters throughout the game and a particular enjoyment of teasing Alistair about things that make him blush.

Wynne shows prudery ("I'm going to go stand over here now", "have their eyesight checked perhaps").  If she had been cougary from the beginning,  I doubt many of us would have had the same reaction to that dialogue.  It is, rather, the juxtaposition of "here, dear, let me darn your socks" with "and maybe we might screw our brains out, who knows?" that gives me brain fry.

As for wanting to distract, well it certainly does that...

Modifié par Addai67, 21 février 2010 - 05:19 .

[e-ver]

Addai67 wrote...
*snip*

It is, rather, the juxtaposition of "here, dear, let me darn your socks" with "and maybe we might screw our brains out, who knows?" that gives me brain fry.


*snip*

Haha, very well put!

What's next, Wynne decides that instead of knitting that cloak she promised Sten, she'll rather heat an iron pry bar and give him a tumble? Oh, and of course she'll inform him of her changed plan while Isolde is slitting Connor's throat or maybe in the orphanage in the Denerim alienage? Would be equally fitting.

[fightright2]

Babymax wrote...

fightright2 wrote...

... give us a legitimate reason as to why so we can chalk it up to perhaps character growth.

Character growth? How about simple bonding that develops over time. You know, that thing people do when they've been through good times and bad with each other and decide to let their guard down a little at a time, even if there's that chance you'll be ridiculed or shunned.

Also, ITT: players who can't wrap their heads around the possibility Wynne still has a functioning sex drive and that *gasp* another character might find her desirable.

As straight as I am, I've been hit on by gay guys, older women, way much younger women, and others I never expected it from at first. So, what? That's just human nature. To be fair, I also find lots of those people attractive even when I'm already with someone else.

I have two points actually, although, there are some here that can easily and have pointed out more than I have.

1. The RTO writers should have spent more time going over the the Origins characters to maintain them rather then just change them abrubtly.
Case in point. Prude to cougar, yes, she has pointed out that she is familiar with sex since she has had a child and many "mages seek each other out". I am not knocking out that she may have a functioning sex drive or that some other character might find her desirable. It's just that the writers should have done that early on in Origins, not in RTO. It's bad timing once your character and Alistair are in a romance. It should have been done well BEFORE the established romance to someone other than Alistair because that may be construed as a backstab in a friendship where someone you trust hits on your boyfriend.
But even then this leads me to my second point.

2. Clearly there is a gross factor in making a character like Wynne flirt with Alistair whom she has regarded as like her son. We are aware that she didn't like being regarded as a grandmother from him but yet SHE regarded HIM like her son. So, there is the sickening factor there. It has nothing to do with whether or not she is a hot old lady that has a functioning sex drive.

If they wanted to give her character some growth to change from a prude to cougar then it should of been with a different character. But obviously, Wynne would never consider "seeking out "Sten, Oghren, or Zevran, and so that leaves Alistair as the only one by default. But even then, just because he's the only one there it doesn't make sense to have him be the target of her flirtation because of the friendship between you and her and MOST IMPORTANTLY, because of the gross factor in acknowledging Alistair as family and he the same in her.

[sami jo]

I don't think the flirting was intended to come off as seriously as it does. Wynne doesn't like being called an old lady. There are several dialogue options with the PC in which she says something akin to "don't expect me to go knit socks just yet". I think the intent was for her to squick Allistair out a bit for teasing her.



That said, it was a really odd time to have that conversation. Wynne isn't the character who handles stress with off the wall jokes. Allistair starts talking about flying dogs, Zev talks about magic bosoms, Oghren gets drunk and stupid, Sten gets monosyllabic, Lel starts talking about butterflies, and Wynne gets bossy. She has a playful side that would certainly like to needle Allistair, but not then. I would more expect her to react pretty snarkily at the jokes of others there, not be trying to make Allistair blush. She's all about propriety in the rest of the game.



This is akin to the line from Morrigan in Lothering when she says she would laugh at her mothers death and Allistair responds with something like, "Yes, very creepy." You just don't expect those sorts of lines from Wynne. She embarrasses him repeatedly, but this time it crosses into creepy territory, especially given the location.

[Gilsa]

In all honesty, Alistair started it when they arrived and dished it out to her. And when the last piece of armor is recovered, he brings up the age thing again so she got the last word in. I didn't take it as flirting or being cougar because the issue is primarily about her age.



I took Wynne to Ostagar without Alistair or Loghain and she was perfectly fine. In fact, when the party reaches the body, Wynne has a nice, somber line, "What is it they say? Only the good die young ... wonder what that says about the rest of us." And she is surprisingly non-sanctimonious about what to do with the king's remains if I pick the unpleasant options. (Alistair is the one that flips out the most.)



I've done Ostagar with Loghain + Wynne, Loghain only, Alistair + Wynne, Alistair only, and Wynne only. I skipped the dog at the beginning of the game so I could recruit the dog in RtO and see each of their reactions. I would have to say out of all three, Alistair is the wet blanket. Loghain had the best lines, Wynne was the most respectful, and Alistair came off as petulant in comparison.



This is a stand-alone content that can be done at any point in the gameplay. Alistair doesn't acknowledge his relationship with Cailan in RtO. It is not necessary for either Wynne or Alistair to acknowledge any sort of romantic relationship with the PC. The PC has no role in Ostagar other than to decide what to do with the king's remains. Yes, it was an inappropriate place to have that kind of conversation, but it's just witty banter which Alistair provoked in the first place.