85 réponses à ce sujet

[QueensKiller]

Vaenier wrote...

The base is a valuable asset, no matter who owns it. plus you can always just blow it up later when you get bored.

Yes. At the very least, it could serve as a base of operation to study the area and all the wonderful technology in the surrounding ship ruins (could have sworn I saw the silhouette of an Omega class destroyer). There should have been an option to keep it without involving cerberus. The process of studying how reapers is made most likely would have yielded valuable info on how to combat them. We did see Joker hand Shepard a schematic of the Sovereign class reaper so perhaps some data was saved.

[Tarisln]

Reaper tech has shown a bad tendancy of indoctrinating anyone who studies it for too long. And frankly, The last thing I want to have to deal with going into ME3 is an indoctrinated TIM and Cerberus working for the Reapers.



Actually, scratch that. Then I would get to shoot TIM in the face and avenge my buddies on Akuze. Indoctrinate away!

[Mars Nova]

Essentially, keeping the base is a huge gamble, but one that might be worth taking.  We won't know until ME3.

Modifié par Mars Nova, 20 février 2010 - 09:22 .

[Terraneaux]

Internet Kraken wrote...

I disagree. TIM is idealistic. Believeing that he can master the dangerous Reaper technology is very idealistic.

See, I'd believe this if there was an opportunity to be like 'Don't you realize that Reaper tech is dangerous?  Any research team we send over there is gonna get indoctrinated!" and TIM's like "I don'tcare/believe you" *then* it would make sense to be like 'uh-uh, I'm blowing this jamba juice stand it's too dangerous.'  The fact that there's no opportunity to hand it over to the Alliance/Council makes me RAGE so hard as well.  

[Freestorm Skinn]

None of you guys mention what Mordin tells Shepherd about the Reapers back on the Normandy: what the Reapers did to the Protheans meant an end to evolution. No more progress, no more diversity, no more individual thought, no more art or philosophy, nothing that made the Protheans what that were was left. They only became tools for the Reapers. Reaper technology used on Humanity would ultimately end Humanity, even if they used it to defeat the Reapers. This is the scene where Mordin proceeds to sing Gilbert & Sullivan.Later, even Legion reveals the Geth want to evolve and progress as a species. This is the real reason why the Reapers must be defeated.



I always thought that speech was the key to whether Shepherd should keep the base or not.

[The Capital Gaultier]

Freestorm Skinn wrote...

None of you guys mention what Mordin tells Shepherd about the Reapers back on the Normandy: what the Reapers did to the Protheans meant an end to evolution. No more progress, no more diversity, no more individual thought, no more art or philosophy, nothing that made the Protheans what that were was left. They only became tools for the Reapers. Reaper technology used on Humanity would ultimately end Humanity, even if they used it to defeat the Reapers. This is the scene where Mordin proceeds to sing Gilbert & Sullivan.Later, even Legion reveals the Geth want to evolve and progress as a species. This is the real reason why the Reapers must be defeated.

I always thought that speech was the key to whether Shepherd should keep the base or not.

This is an incorrect use of generalization.  The technology handouts from the "Protheans" did not stop humanity from evolving.  Neither will the Reaper technology.  The situation is just different.

[Speakeasy13]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Internet Kraken wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

anmiro wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Cerberus is a pro-human organization. It's not a bad choice (way overblown on here), it's just a very human-centrist choice.

Don't confuse Kelly's perception of Cerberus for what it really is. The crew of the Normandy are good people, but as Engineer Donnelly points out he doesn't know much about them. 

And if your Shepard is a Sole Survivor of Akuze, Cerberus is responsible for the death of your entire unit. It would make absolutely no sense for Shepard to trust them with a weapon like this. 

Why not?  TIM is not idealistic, and he makes no bones about it.  However, he is the most level-headed, rational person in the ME universe so far.  You can predict exactly what he's going to do with it to some degree of certainty.

I disagree. TIM is idealistic. Believeing that he can master the dangerous Reaper technology is very idealistic.

TIM never says that this technology will put humanity on top and ensure that humanity can stop the Reapers.  Instead, he specifically says that the technology has the potential to do those things.  If you want to deny him the chance, don't do it on the basis of him being illogical.

Thing is, if all human are completely logical and calculating like TIM, then I'm not sure giving humanity the chance to be on top is the right idea, or any1 logical and ambitious for that matter. I surely don't want to fight a monster by creating another.

I don't think ANYBODY deserve to have much power. Be it TIM, Anderson, the alliance or the council I'll rather blow it to make sure nobody EVER gets it.

[TheTrac3r]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Freestorm Skinn wrote...

None of you guys mention what Mordin tells Shepherd about the Reapers back on the Normandy: what the Reapers did to the Protheans meant an end to evolution. No more progress, no more diversity, no more individual thought, no more art or philosophy, nothing that made the Protheans what that were was left. They only became tools for the Reapers. Reaper technology used on Humanity would ultimately end Humanity, even if they used it to defeat the Reapers. This is the scene where Mordin proceeds to sing Gilbert & Sullivan.Later, even Legion reveals the Geth want to evolve and progress as a species. This is the real reason why the Reapers must be defeated.

I always thought that speech was the key to whether Shepherd should keep the base or not.

This is an incorrect use of generalization.  The technology handouts from the "Protheans" did not stop humanity from evolving.  Neither will the Reaper technology.  The situation is just different.

Both sides are valid.

The Mass Relays are Reaper tech.  Helped us just fine.

and yet,

We defeated the Reapers.  WE maybe even impressed them a little.  So much so, they gave us an exclusive ticket to join the immortal galaxy destroying machine club.  WE turned it down.  I guess what I am saying is.  If it's humanity VS the reapers in the war to end all wars...we beat them twice now without "becoming them"...why change strategies now?

Yes,. it's an oversimplification.  EDI has reaper algorithms. etc etc etc.  I said it more as an interesting thing to think about.

[The Capital Gaultier]

Speakeasy13 wrote...
Thing is, if all human are completely logical and calculating like TIM, then I'm not sure giving humanity the chance to be on top is the right idea, or any1 logical and ambitious for that matter. I surely don't want to fight a monster by creating another.

I don't think ANYBODY deserve to have much power. Be it TIM, Anderson, the alliance or the council I'll rather blow it to make sure nobody EVER gets it.

See, now that is a really good reason to not give it to TIM!

[Speakeasy13]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Freestorm Skinn wrote...

None of you guys mention what Mordin tells Shepherd about the Reapers back on the Normandy: what the Reapers did to the Protheans meant an end to evolution. No more progress, no more diversity, no more individual thought, no more art or philosophy, nothing that made the Protheans what that were was left. They only became tools for the Reapers. Reaper technology used on Humanity would ultimately end Humanity, even if they used it to defeat the Reapers. This is the scene where Mordin proceeds to sing Gilbert & Sullivan.Later, even Legion reveals the Geth want to evolve and progress as a species. This is the real reason why the Reapers must be defeated.

I always thought that speech was the key to whether Shepherd should keep the base or not.

This is an incorrect use of generalization.  The technology handouts from the "Protheans" did not stop humanity from evolving.  Neither will the Reaper technology.  The situation is just different.

They didn't stop humanity from evolving, rather made us evolve the way the Reapers expected us to. The Protheans themselves were being manupilated in their own evolution. And breaking it is essential to breaking the Reapers' cycle.

At the end of the day, even if we can indeed benefit from what the Reaper technology represent, do you really want to use that power? More specifically, do you want none other than Cerberus to wield that power?

If it would mean more brutal experiments on humans and aliens, or more research people being indoctrinated, or who knows what other horrific outcome may be produced. I don't think it'd be a worthy price to pay.

[Terraneaux]

Speakeasy13 wrote...
Thing is, if all human are completely logical and calculating like TIM, then I'm not sure giving humanity the chance to be on top is the right idea, or any1 logical and ambitious for that matter. I surely don't want to fight a monster by creating another.

I don't think ANYBODY deserve to have much power. Be it TIM, Anderson, the alliance or the council I'll rather blow it to make sure nobody EVER gets it.

TIM is not logical and calculating.  He wants power, but he's so immoral he's going to shoot himself in the foot eventually when he either sabotages the war effort against the Reapers or ends up having everyone betray him because he's done some bad, bad things.  In the end, he's ruled by his own lust for power.  Mordin is much closer to a purely logical individual; he understands his emotions and desires and lets them help him, rather than TIM who, if he ends up winning, will have done so based off of luck that his lack of control over his desires hasn't tripped him up.  

But I think that's deviating a bit into philosophy territory.

[Delta Green]

I think it's extremely short sighted and naive to destroy the collector base, especially when the fate of galactic life hinges on important choices like so. A gigantic reaper armada is on its way, a SINGLE reaper with a few geth escorts destroyed the citadel fleet. A fully shielded Reaper cannot be penetrated by DREADNOUGHTS, their shields allow them to plow through enemy cruisers with near impunity and they have powerful almost laser like weapons that can slice cruisers like they were butter. Every advantage must be taken in the war against the reapers.



It is true that all our progress occured because of the mass relays, tech that the reapers purposefully left us but it is also true they never intended for their thranx cannon, algorithms and IFFs to be tampered with, which shows that they have not prepared adequate defense for all their technologies.



The collector base could yield distinct advantages we could field against the upcoming reaper onslaught, the risks are extremely great but as of this point we don't have much else to go on. TIM is quite obviously out for human interests but he'll come along for the ride if only just to defeat the reapers, anything else after that we'll just have to deal with.

[Andorfiend]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...
Why not?  TIM is not idealistic, and he makes no bones about it.  However, he is the most level-headed, rational person in the ME universe so far.  You can predict exactly what he's going to do with it to some degree of certainty.

That's true. TIM is highly predictable. You can be absolutely certain that whatever option he chooses will be the most self-destructive thing possible. Remember that we've seen Cerberus wipe out more human colonies than the Collectors.

Also Reaper tech is trecherous. The most possitive result of using it we've ever seen led to a virus in the ship and half your crew getting turned into slimfast.

Put Reaper tech and TIM together and he'll probably end up releaseing a swarm of mutant chihuahuas on Earth whose bite will turn everyone into husks.

[Barquiel]

I don't know what's so good about keeping the Collector base. It seems to me that their tech isn't that advanced (Normandy>collector ship) and EDI has already scanned the base's computers and got the informations from it.

[Exile Isan]

I don't know if anyone mentioned this before but... the base isn't really needed. EDI mined the computer on the collector ship, she still has all that information. If you picked it up on Horizon, you have one of the collector's particle beam weapons. And the Thanix cannon was created using tech gained from the bits and pieces of Sovereign. All of this can be studied and used against the reapers.



Also the main reason not to give the base to TIM is this: human dominance. TIM repeatedly says this to Shep. He wants human dominance over other species in the galaxy and since my Shep's best friends are a turian, a quarian, and an asari, that doesn't go over well with her.

[The Capital Gaultier]

Barquiel wrote...

I don't know what's so good about keeping the Collector base. It seems to me that their tech isn't that advanced (Normandy>collector ship) and EDI has already scanned the base's computers and got the informations from it.

>.>

Did you play ME1?  Most of the tech we see in ME2 is of the inferior Collector species.  The Reaper would have been the most advanced thing they owned, if it had survived.  In ME1, Reaper technology almost makes them invincible.

[Jamin101]

Doesnt activating the iff lead the collectors right to your ship, so you could argue they have plans if their tech was ever discovered. Every time reaper technology is used it leads to bad things, the only difference is the relays and such, but those were meant to trick species into thinking of an old space faring race. Reaper tech undisguised is bad news

[Exile Isan]

Jamin101 wrote...
Every time reaper technology is used it leads to bad things, the only difference is the relays and such, but those were meant to trick species into thinking of an old space faring race. Reaper tech undisguised is bad news

You do realize the Thanix Cannon that you use to blow apart the collector ship in the suicide mission cinematics is reaper tech right?

[huntrrz]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Why not?  TIM is not idealistic, and he makes no bones about it.  However, he is the most level-headed, rational person in the ME universe so far.  You can predict exactly what he's going to do with it to some degree of certainty.

Yes.  We can predict that he's going to use Reaper tech to crush everything in the galaxy that doesn't support his agenda.  And that agenda is total domination rationalized as "Cerberus IS Humanity" (and unspoken but obviously "*I* AM Cerberus").

Which makes turning the base over to him an ethically repugnant choice.

[AK2EL]

"We are building our own future..." - Legion

Which I think humanity also should try to do and defeat the Reapers with "our" own methods.



I still believe that if you keep the station, Cerberus will make some kid of ridicolusly overpowered spacecraft and blast the quad out of something, proberly themselves or the Reapers...

[.primus]

Delta Green wrote...

I think it's extremely short sighted and naive to destroy the collector base, especially when the fate of galactic life hinges on important choices like so. A gigantic reaper armada is on its way, a SINGLE reaper with a few geth escorts destroyed the citadel fleet. A fully shielded Reaper cannot be penetrated by DREADNOUGHTS, their shields allow them to plow through enemy cruisers with near impunity and they have powerful almost laser like weapons that can slice cruisers like they were butter. Every advantage must be taken in the war against the reapers.

It is true that all our progress occured because of the mass relays, tech that the reapers purposefully left us but it is also true they never intended for their thranx cannon, algorithms and IFFs to be tampered with, which shows that they have not prepared adequate defense for all their technologies.

The collector base could yield distinct advantages we could field against the upcoming reaper onslaught, the risks are extremely great but as of this point we don't have much else to go on. TIM is quite obviously out for human interests but he'll come along for the ride if only just to defeat the reapers, anything else after that we'll just have to deal with.

You do know the Thanix upgrade to the Normandy are a replica of Sovereign's/Nazara that could slice cruisers like butter.after all it did take the Collector Ship pretty easily . So despite the Council "denying" the reaper threat. They have in less than a year after the Battle of the Citadel created a copy of Sovereign's/Nazara Laser Beams. Now imagine Alliance/Council/Quarian fleet with that same laser beam. What better way to beat the enemy than with their own f'n weapon. 

When I look at the Collector Base I look at it as Mass Effect's version of a Death Star. Yeah lame but you didn't see the Rebel Alliance try to capture the Death Star to fight against the Empire. Only bad things could come out of it... even with good intentions (pro-human). Unless there is some unknown secret regarding the Collector base other than harvesting organics to create some super being. There is nothing that could come out of it but bad stuff. 

Oh what about knowing more about Reaper Technology?! It helps to know the enemy more than you know yourself right to beat them? Okay so we get to know how they create a human reaper... once again what good is it? We going to create some big giant reaper of our own but not harvesting humans but some other organic? Real great way to save the galaxy guys. 

[The Capital Gaultier]

huntrrz wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Why not?  TIM is not idealistic, and he makes no bones about it.  However, he is the most level-headed, rational person in the ME universe so far.  You can predict exactly what he's going to do with it to some degree of certainty.

Yes.  We can predict that he's going to use Reaper tech to crush everything in the galaxy that doesn't support his agenda.  And that agenda is total domination rationalized as "Cerberus IS Humanity" (and unspoken but obviously "*I* AM Cerberus").

Which makes turning the base over to him an ethically repugnant choice.

I agree.  However, he doesn't hide this fact, and TIM is nothing if not ruthlessly competent.

[Speakeasy13]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

I don't know what's so good about keeping the Collector base. It seems to me that their tech isn't that advanced (Normandy>collector ship) and EDI has already scanned the base's computers and got the informations from it.

>.>

Did you play ME1?  Most of the tech we see in ME2 is of the inferior Collector species.  The Reaper would have been the most advanced thing they owned, if it had survived.  In ME1, Reaper technology almost makes them invincible.

I agree with you that Reaper tech is vastly superior. It's just that there's not much to salvage in that base anyway. I mean, Collector tech is ALSO vastly inferior to Reaper tech, and what's left in that base is just what, Dragon's Teeth? They aren't give us much to reverse engineer. Next thing we know TIM will be making his own Husk army. We don't want that.

[Terraneaux]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

I agree.  However, he doesn't hide this fact, and TIM is nothing if not ruthlessly competent.

I disagree.

[huntrrz]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

huntrrz wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Why not?  TIM is not idealistic, and he makes no bones about it.  However, he is the most level-headed, rational person in the ME universe so far.  You can predict exactly what he's going to do with it to some degree of certainty.

Yes.  We can predict that he's going to use Reaper tech to crush everything in the galaxy that doesn't support his agenda.  And that agenda is total domination rationalized as "Cerberus IS Humanity" (and unspoken but obviously "*I* AM Cerberus").

Which makes turning the base over to him an ethically repugnant choice.

I agree.  However, he doesn't hide this fact, and TIM is nothing if not ruthlessly competent.

So, knowing he is going to ruthlessly crush all opposition (even human opposition, he cares nothing for those killed by his 'experiments') makes giving him the base a GOOD idea?

The only condition that would make it a good/wise choice would be if that were the ONLY way humanity could surivive.  That is far from obvious.

(And, as an earlier poster noted, TIM's "competence" is debatable.  Many of his projects have backfired to the detriment of humans.  And his entire philosophy of "ends justifies the means" has so alienated every established government that he's hamstrung - no one would accept his offer of assistance even if they WERE convinced of the Reaper threat.  And he can't offer any evidence to convince them because he is so suspect.  His methods are ultimately  short-sighted and counter-productive.)