85 réponses à ce sujet

[The Capital Gaultier]

huntrrz wrote...
So, knowing he is going to ruthlessly crush all opposition (even human opposition, he cares nothing for those killed by his 'experiments') makes giving him the base a GOOD idea?

The only condition that would make it a good/wise choice would be if that were the ONLY way humanity could surivive.  That is far from obvious.

Yes.  If Shepard's primary concern is with the Reapers and he believes that TIM has a good chance of recovering technology that would turn the tide on the Reapers, it is a superb choice.  If Shepard has concerns beyond merely defeating the Reapers, then it probably isn't as great an idea.

(And, as an earlier poster noted, TIM's "competence" is debatable.  Many of his projects have backfired to the detriment of humans.  And his entire philosophy of "ends justifies the means" has so alienated every established government that he's hamstrung - no one would accept his offer of assistance even if they WERE convinced of the Reaper threat.  And he can't offer any evidence to convince them because he is so suspect.  His methods are ultimately  short-sighted and counter-productive.)

You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs.  As with all experimental research, you will pursue every feasible lead you can because you just don't know where you'll achieve a breakthrough.  TIM comes across as a calculating gambler who is thoroughly ruthless.  There've been mistakes, sure, but he's still terribly powerful with miraculous successes to his name.

[Freestorm Skinn]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Freestorm Skinn wrote...

None of you guys mention what Mordin tells Shepherd about the Reapers back on the Normandy: what the Reapers did to the Protheans meant an end to evolution. No more progress, no more diversity, no more individual thought, no more art or philosophy, nothing that made the Protheans what that were was left. They only became tools for the Reapers. Reaper technology used on Humanity would ultimately end Humanity, even if they used it to defeat the Reapers. This is the scene where Mordin proceeds to sing Gilbert & Sullivan.Later, even Legion reveals the Geth want to evolve and progress as a species. This is the real reason why the Reapers must be defeated.

I always thought that speech was the key to whether Shepherd should keep the base or not.

This is an incorrect use of generalization.  The technology handouts from the "Protheans" did not stop humanity from evolving.  Neither will the Reaper technology.  The situation is just different.

How would you even know that?  All the tech on the base is about liquifying humans to turn into the lifeblood of a new type of Reaper.

[Nomexia]

Keep in mind that their is no right,or wrong way of playing this game.So if your looking to blow it,then do it to keep it out Cerbrus's hand.On the hand if you keep it,remember that this may help

Humanity for short period of time.This is reaper technology,reapers have unmatched knowledge of

this tech,They created it! This means they also know how to defeat it. . . . .

[Freestorm Skinn]

Freestorm Skinn wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Freestorm Skinn wrote...

None of you guys mention what Mordin tells Shepherd about the Reapers back on the Normandy: what the Reapers did to the Protheans meant an end to evolution. No more progress, no more diversity, no more individual thought, no more art or philosophy, nothing that made the Protheans what that were was left. They only became tools for the Reapers. Reaper technology used on Humanity would ultimately end Humanity, even if they used it to defeat the Reapers. This is the scene where Mordin proceeds to sing Gilbert & Sullivan.Later, even Legion reveals the Geth want to evolve and progress as a species. This is the real reason why the Reapers must be defeated.

I always thought that speech was the key to whether Shepherd should keep the base or not.

This is an incorrect use of generalization.  The technology handouts from the "Protheans" did not stop humanity from evolving.  Neither will the Reaper technology.  The situation is just different.

How would you even know that?  All the tech on the base is about liquifying humans to turn into the lifeblood of a new type of Reaper.

The Prothean technology was not about altering and trapping their entire biologies and brain functions until they're nothing but puppets and tools for the Reapers the use.  That's the difference.  Look at the Keepers.  They were altered by the Reapers into purely functional things with no will of their own.  They stopped evolving.

[Yates22N7]

My first play through i kept it even though i was paragon mainly because i found myself agreeing with TIM then i did another play through and blew it up. Mainly because the look he has when he’s looking over the scans is kind of evil looking or in other words in his head he’s saying

'Ha Sucker!!!!'

Blow it up, its better to see how pissed off he is and then tell him its my way or the highway.

[The Capital Gaultier]

Freestorm Skinn wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Freestorm Skinn wrote...

None of you guys mention what Mordin tells Shepherd about the Reapers back on the Normandy: what the Reapers did to the Protheans meant an end to evolution. No more progress, no more diversity, no more individual thought, no more art or philosophy, nothing that made the Protheans what that were was left. They only became tools for the Reapers. Reaper technology used on Humanity would ultimately end Humanity, even if they used it to defeat the Reapers. This is the scene where Mordin proceeds to sing Gilbert & Sullivan.Later, even Legion reveals the Geth want to evolve and progress as a species. This is the real reason why the Reapers must be defeated.

I always thought that speech was the key to whether Shepherd should keep the base or not.

This is an incorrect use of generalization.  The technology handouts from the "Protheans" did not stop humanity from evolving.  Neither will the Reaper technology.  The situation is just different.

How would you even know that?  All the tech on the base is about liquifying humans to turn into the lifeblood of a new type of Reaper.

It's a manufacturing facility for Reapers.  Somewhere along the line, that baby Reaper's gonna acquire the weapons, shields, indoctrination systems and so on that the Reapers so far have had.  Maybe even a couple upgrades.

[huntrrz]

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

huntrrz wrote...
So, knowing he is going to ruthlessly crush all opposition (even human opposition, he cares nothing for those killed by his 'experiments') makes giving him the base a GOOD idea?

The only condition that would make it a good/wise choice would be if that were the ONLY way humanity could surivive.  That is far from obvious.

Yes.  If Shepard's primary concern is with the Reapers and he believes that TIM has a good chance of recovering technology that would turn the tide on the Reapers, it is a superb choice.  If Shepard has concerns beyond merely defeating the Reapers, then it probably isn't as great an idea.

I didn't say "a good chance", I said "the ONLY way".  There's not a chance in hell I'd give TIM that much power unless the survival of the entire race literally hinged on it.

(And, as an earlier poster noted, TIM's "competence" is debatable.  Many of his projects have backfired to the detriment of humans.  And his entire philosophy of "ends justifies the means" has so alienated every established government that he's hamstrung - no one would accept his offer of assistance even if they WERE convinced of the Reaper threat.  And he can't offer any evidence to convince them because he is so suspect.  His methods are ultimately  short-sighted and counter-productive.)

You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs.  As with all experimental research, you will pursue every feasible lead you can because you just don't know where you'll achieve a breakthrough.  TIM comes across as a calculating gambler who is thoroughly ruthless.  There've been mistakes, sure, but he's still terribly powerful with miraculous successes to his name.

I have always found the "omelette" quote to be extremely cynical - it's always struck me that the people "breaking the eggs" are "conveniently" sacrificing OTHER people for their own ends.  If they were REALLY convinced that their activities were VITAL to the survival of their country/race they'd be volunteering to sacrifice THEMSELVES instead of feeding others into the wood-chipper.

BTW, the only 'miraculous' success I'm aware of is Shepard's resurrection, which certainly counts.  The reconstruction of the Normandy is a success, but not so miraculous.  Are there others I missed?  Most of Cerebus' "mistakes" were ethically flawed experiments that failed or backfired.

[The Capital Gaultier]

huntrrz wrote...

BTW, the only 'miraculous' success I'm aware of is Shepard's resurrection, which certainly counts.  The reconstruction of the Normandy is a success, but not so miraculous.  Are there others I missed?  Most of Cerebus' "mistakes" were ethically flawed experiments that failed or backfired.

The other prominent one in ME2 is their grasp of Reaper technology.  Not thorough, but the creation of a functional AI incorporating Reaper technology is pretty revolutionary.

[GodWood]

I'm a renegade, I saved the collector base, I picked the paragon response when dealing with TIM at the end.



Its the best outcome, you've saved the technology, you've still got an ally in Cerberus (regardless of how you feel about them they saved your life, built you a new ship and saved the galaxy, they're valuble allies) and finally TIM knows where you stand, as you only want this technology to be used against the reapers.

[huntrrz]

AI's aren't miraculous or revolutionary. People know how to make them, but they're illegal.



I'll grant you that the advanced code for decryption and cyber-warfare (including Reaper countermeasures) are an impressive success. TIM apparently developed those himself.



(Funny how none of these successes required fatal experiments on unwilling subjects...)

[The Capital Gaultier]

huntrrz wrote...

AI's aren't miraculous or revolutionary. People know how to make them, but they're illegal.

I'll grant you that the advanced code for decryption and cyber-warfare (including Reaper countermeasures) are an impressive success. TIM apparently developed those himself.

(Funny how none of these successes required fatal experiments on unwilling subjects...)

I wouldn't call them blood-free, however.  Cerberus operatives died to get the information for Cerberus.

[Vaenier]

huntrrz wrote...

AI's aren't miraculous or revolutionary. People know how to make them, but they're illegal.

Its miraculous that it doesnt try to kill everyone, especialy with reaper tech intigrated into it.

[The Angry One]

GodWood wrote...

 and finally TIM knows where you stand, as you only want this technology to be used against the reapers.

Yeah cause he's really going to follow up on that..

[The Angry One]

Vaenier wrote...

huntrrz wrote...

AI's aren't miraculous or revolutionary. People know how to make them, but they're illegal.

Its miraculous that it doesnt try to kill everyone, especialy with reaper tech intigrated into it.

Eh? Geth aren't naturally aggressive. The Quarians were the ones who made it a battle for survival.
The AI you meet on the Citadel on ME1 and the one on Luna were born into an enviroment where everybody wanted them dead. Same deal.

[Vaenier]

Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.

[Wolfsfable01]

I believe the whole point of this game is species cohesion. The humans cannot defeat the reaper threat alone and must earn the trust and respect of as many of the alien races as possible to stand a snowballs chance in hell of defeating the Reapers.

TIM does not view aliens as equals but as tools to be used to climb to the top. So what happens when he get there. What happens when he does get the collector base. The base takes genetic material and turns it into Reapers and or Reaper technology. Where will the illusive man obtain the genetic material to grow his own reaper army which is clearly what he wants to do with the base. The answer is simple, other alien races because he does not value them above humans. So he will use the base to do what the Reapers wanted to do in the first place except he will exclude the human race in the harvesting process.

Destroy the base, you don't need it, unite the other races to the cause of fighting the Reapers and help humanity as Shepard said "I'll do it without sacrificing the soul of our species."

[GodWood]

The Angry One wrote...

GodWood wrote...

 and finally TIM knows where you stand, as you only want this technology to be used against the reapers.

Yeah cause he's really going to follow up on that..

Yes well that'll be dealed with later, we are currently at war with a race of machines that have wiped out all life in the galaxy more times than we can comprehend, we need the best resources to take them down.

I think saving the krogan is a stupider choice as they're more likely to attack before the Reaper invason and simply cause a civil war.

[huntrrz]

I'll actually give that a try on my next play-through - see how I like it before preparing my "real" import for ME3.

[catelee2u]

Delta Green wrote...

I think it's extremely short sighted and naive to destroy the collector base, especially when the fate of galactic life hinges on important choices like so. A gigantic reaper armada is on its way, a SINGLE reaper with a few geth escorts destroyed the citadel fleet. A fully shielded Reaper cannot be penetrated by DREADNOUGHTS, their shields allow them to plow through enemy cruisers with near impunity and they have powerful almost laser like weapons that can slice cruisers like they were butter. Every advantage must be taken in the war against the reapers.

It is true that all our progress occured because of the mass relays, tech that the reapers purposefully left us but it is also true they never intended for their thranx cannon, algorithms and IFFs to be tampered with, which shows that they have not prepared adequate defense for all their technologies.

The collector base could yield distinct advantages we could field against the upcoming reaper onslaught, the risks are extremely great but as of this point we don't have much else to go on. TIM is quite obviously out for human interests but he'll come along for the ride if only just to defeat the reapers, anything else after that we'll just have to deal with.

I agree completely and although I greatly distrust TIM I'll deal with him if needs be just hope he doesn't harm anyone along the way. I did it to hurt the reapers.

[catelee2u]

Freestorm Skinn wrote...

The Capital Gaultier wrote...

Freestorm Skinn wrote...

None of you guys mention what Mordin tells Shepherd about the Reapers back on the Normandy: what the Reapers did to the Protheans meant an end to evolution. No more progress, no more diversity, no more individual thought, no more art or philosophy, nothing that made the Protheans what that were was left. They only became tools for the Reapers. Reaper technology used on Humanity would ultimately end Humanity, even if they used it to defeat the Reapers. This is the scene where Mordin proceeds to sing Gilbert & Sullivan.Later, even Legion reveals the Geth want to evolve and progress as a species. This is the real reason why the Reapers must be defeated.

I always thought that speech was the key to whether Shepherd should keep the base or not.

This is an incorrect use of generalization.  The technology handouts from the "Protheans" did not stop humanity from evolving.  Neither will the Reaper technology.  The situation is just different.

How would you even know that?  All the tech on the base is about liquifying humans to turn into the lifeblood of a new type of Reaper.

yes and it might not be the only base of its kind....needs study

[.primus]

We already have some technology that could be used against the Reapers that were their own... The THANIX CANNON came from the tech recovered from SOVEREIGN OMG!!!



All this base was harvesting organic life and creating a reaper. What good will come out of that?



Why did Sovereign look so godly in ME. Simple the council ships were not ready.

[Mr0TYuH]

Here is the worst case scenario with keeping the base. The research team that arrives at the Collector Base and proceeds to study the technology there. They begin making stunning technological advances, which are integrated into the systems of various warships. There seems to be no adverse effects among the science team. Various important individuals visit the site to provide oversight.



The Reapers arrive. When the cutting edge ships equipped with technology from the Collector Base attempt to engage them, they are crippled with viruses like those in the Reaper IFF. It turns out some or all of the research team was indoctrinated, but like Saren, not like the team on the derelict Reaper. Given the people who have visited the base, the loyalties of people become suspect. It is even possible that some of the upgrades installed on various ships and in various installations are Indoctrination Devices. Organized resistance to the Reapers collapses. Basically, it would be like the re-imagined Battlestar Galactica, only worse.



I'm not saying that is what is going to happen, but it may be a grave error to assume you can just blow up the base if something goes wrong, because it may be too late by then.

[Mobile-Platform-928]

I'm surprised that no one brought up how ethically repugnant it is to keep that kind of monument to human suffering and Reaper...well...evil in the first place. It's essentially a giant blender that relies on sapient beings to make its pureé.

It can do two things, that we know of: house a slave race of mindless meat-puppets (the Collectors), and create a new Reaper. Out of liquefied people. Millions of colonists died in its mechanisms. Even giving it over to Anderson would be monstrous, and I think he'd point that out.

It has strategic value in that if we know how a Reaper ticks, we can kill it much more easily, but as Shepard says in the Paragon choice, "I won't let fear compromise who I am." S/he knows there has to be a better way than using the Reapers' own tools to fight them, because to use them...well, even the geth recognize that to use a Reaper's tools is to become like them.

I wavered a little after seeing the Reaper fleet, but then I talked to my bro Legion, and he noted that "you were given a chance to use the Old Machines' tools, on humanity's terms. Yet...you did not. You walked away. Perhaps you are more like us than we thought."

The geth will build their own future. So will we. Because it's the right thing to do.

[Trenrade]

I would have kept the base for myself and sold it to the highest bidder

[Trenrade]

BattleVisor wrote...



''Retribution is set in the universe fans know well from the video game and novel series—one in which humanity has explored the very farthest reaches of the universe, only to discover the ruthless Reapers, a race bent on extinguishing all organic life. One man is bent on discovering the Reapers' secrets, the mysterious Illusive Man, the leader of a pro-human, black ops group, Cerberus. And he's devised the perfect plan: implant a human subject with Reaper technology in order to study the enemy.

He also has the perfect test subject—Paul Grayson, an ex-Cerberus operative. Grayson betrayed Cerberus in order to save his daughter. So when Grayson is kidnapped and made the subject of Cerberus' evil experiments, the Illusive Man will finally have his revenge...''

that looks like Galen Marek from TFU