202 réponses à ce sujet

[anmiro]

Personally, I lost a little bit of respect for Joker and Chakwas. I assume they knew about my past.

Modifié par anmiro, 21 février 2010 - 03:13 .

[Saint Op]

Sialater wrote...

My Shep's a canny girl. She's perfectly capable of swallowing her need for ripping TIM's lungs out through his nostrils till after the Collectors are defeated. Also, the more she ****ed about it, the more warning they'd have. So, for now, sweep it under the carpet and start up the refrigeration process on her revenge.

Yeah this is more what I was thinking.  In the begining you know very little of whats going on.  Until your talk with miri you don't really know nothing has been implanted into you & after that I would still be suspicious.  Hell pitching a fit and getting brain shocked or released to mind control would help nothing.  Then after talking with the crew on the ship and how the alliance screwed them too.  Yeah I would lay low play along and then when the time is right take my ship, my crew & whatever else I wanted ( Jacob,Miranda,all the armour he sent me) and tell him that It's all mine & I'm in charge & he can suck a fat one.  Which is pretty much exactly what happens...so I'm cool with it. Those who focus on the past have a cloudy future.

Also the rouge branch is way more believalbe then everyone makes it seem.  One employee of a company can do very bad things unknown to the parent company.  If one branch starts another that starts another and he only knows of the original, well thats that.  Yes this is way toned down but one fast food employee spitting in your food does not mean the owner of that store or the president of the company spit on your food.

[jtav]

I still think it would have been a great idea to have background specific missions. Maybe you discover that someone who was a tech on the original project is trying to recreate it and you have to stop them. Maybe Miranda unknowingly set the project in motion. It would give her a nice "my God, what have I done?" moment and set up her defection from/disillusionment with Cerberus

[DRACO1130]

Shepard 'redeemed' his team - no matter how you played it in ME1 the Team WAS avenged - couple this with the JACK backstory and you can at least believe that The elusive man wasn't totally in control of what happened - Its a slender reed to cling to but it works for the plot - Barely - Hopefully they will do better in ME3

[Ktauliss]

Saint Op wrote...

Also the rouge branch is way more believable then everyone makes it seem.  One employee of a company can do very bad things unknown to the parent company.  If one branch starts another that starts another and he only knows of the original, well thats that.  Yes this is way toned down but one fast food employee spitting in your food does not mean the owner of that store or the president of the company spit on your food.

Two words 'responsibility' and 'accountability'.  In your example the manager would presumably fire the employee in question if the behavior was known.  But, in the final analysis 'if' TIM is the head of Cerberus the 'buck' stops at him.   If a cell goes rogue and he takes no action to stop it (since he set it up and funded it) HE is responsible for the consequences.  As well too many 'Rogue' cells calls into question basic screening before assigning personnel to these cells.

Now I posted in another thread that TIM gets little credit for Shepard saving the galaxy simply by Project Lazarus and Normandy because the control element in that case was (and was intended to be) Shepard.  of course if we blow the base and run off with Normandy II and it's crew *chuckle* I guess we ARE one of those Rogue cells. 

[Sialater]

Ktauliss wrote...
 of course if we blow the base and run off with Normandy II and it's crew *chuckle* I guess we ARE one of those Rogue cells. 

Exactly, we are now one of those rogue cells and we demonstrate exactly how tenuous TIM's control over his operation actually is.  Hell, even in Shep's resurrection, Wilson's trying to sell the project (you) to the highest bidder.


TIM may be competent, but he's got a lot balls in the air and the balls have free will. 

But to go back, why should Shep whine about Akuze?  S/he's not stupid enough to tip her/his hand that early.

[Ktauliss]

Sialater wrote...

Ktauliss wrote...
 of course if we blow the base and run off with Normandy II and it's crew *chuckle* I guess we ARE one of those Rogue cells. 

Exactly, we are now one of those rogue cells and we demonstrate exactly how tenuous TIM's control over his operation actually is.  Hell, even in Shep's resurrection, Wilson's trying to sell the project (you) to the highest bidder.


TIM may be competent, but he's got a lot balls in the air and the balls have free will. 

I seem to remember Miranda shot Wilson for that too.  Yes, the Balls have free will which is presumably the reason why EDI says that Cerberus operates no more than 12 cells at a time (12 presumably being as many as TIM feels he can handle oversight of).  

Rogue cells being an excuse for the inexcusable actions of Cerberus in the (recent) past, is only believable if TIM  is 'admitting' that he cannot control the organization.  Why then is he still leading it?  Not saying that bad things cannot happen even in the best of conditions, simply that too much or too often is a really bad sign.

[Ktauliss]

To paraphrase something I read. You are revealed by your creation and a leader's creation is how their people act. if they get better, then you are a good leader, if they get worse ..... look to yourself as the cause.



What then is revealed about TIM?

[Sialater]

Ktauliss wrote...

To paraphrase something I read. You are revealed by your creation and a leader's creation is how their people act. if they get better, then you are a good leader, if they get worse ..... look to yourself as the cause.

What then is revealed about TIM?

I believe TIM's assertions of innocence in the "rogue" cells about as much as I believe in ocean-front property for sale in Arizona.  However, plausible deniability is a viable excuse and certainly one he wields over Miranda.  My Shep doesn't believe her protestations, but is willing to believe that SHE believes them.  Miranda is duped because she needed to believe in the organization she worked for.  Even her grand IQ can lead to rose colored glasses if it helps her sleep at night.

Acknowleging the truth about Akuze and the experiments on Jack would probably cause Cerberus Barbie's head to explode if she did that before TIM revealed his true colors on the Reaper ship.

I don't recall TIM ever blaming rogue cells, just that Miranda believed they were.  I could be wrong, though.

[anmiro]

I think ME3 needs to present Shepard with the opportunity to kill TIM. I think Paragons, especially Sole Survivors, would have a very hard time not killing him.

Modifié par anmiro, 21 février 2010 - 05:18 .

[Chuvvy]

OverlordNexas wrote...

Its especially glaring as Miranda and Jacob ASK you what happened on Akuze, but you get no option to tell them that it was Cerberus's fault

[anmiro]

How about some dialogue between Sole Survivor Shep and Jack. Like "I understand your hatred for Cerberus...believe me."

[Ulicus]

Saint Op wrote...

Also the rouge branch is way more believalbe then everyone makes it seem.  One employee of a company can do very bad things unknown to the parent company.  If one branch starts another that starts another and he only knows of the original, well thats that.  Yes this is way toned down but one fast food employee spitting in your food does not mean the owner of that store or the president of the company spit on your food.

I could swallow this if the Cerberus we encountered in ME1 had been revealed to have gone rogue (from Cerberus, as opposed to the Alliance). However, ME2 confirms that, no, they were the Cerberus military division, they hadn't gone rogue... and they were still feeding units of marines to thresher maws!

Seriously.

Shepard: Eight years ago you fed fifty marines - and me - to thresher maws to see what they could do.
Miranda: We've changed! I believe in what Cerberus stands for.
Shepard: Two years ago, Cerberus fed admiral Kahoku's men to a thresher maw.
Miranda: Yeah, but...
Shepard: People don't change that drastically in two years. Neither do organisations.

*Que Illium*

Shepard: Well, okay, maybe ASARI change that drastically in two years. But not organisations!

Talk to Miranda a second time after completing her loyalty mission.
(Where she apologizes for doubting your ability to command the
mission). Tell her Cerberus is wrong and just before she goes on the
defensive, Miranda admits to Cerberus's wrong doing in the past. It's
very easy to miss. I didn't catch it until my 3rd playthrough. It's a
blanket statement about Cerberus in the past, which most likely covers
Akuze. There are also references to Cerberus's "dark past" throughout
the game.

NOTE: Jamie, the above is why her "blanket statement" doesn't work. She says "we've got a dark past" but then goes on to justify the experiments of the military division of Cerberus that killed Kahoku and set the thresher maw on his squad.

Modifié par Ulicus, 21 février 2010 - 08:55 .

[The Enkindler]

I you ignored the Toombs side-mission in ME does that mean your Shepard would not know that Cerberus was behind Akuze?

[tonnactus]

Spectre_Shepard wrote...

i certainly had a problem.

i spent most of the game wanting to send miranda out an airlock. i wouldve blown TIM away given the option.

telling him to screw off will have to do

Dont make the loyality missions for both cerberus members and do go immidiatly to the omega 4 portal after the reaper ship mission.

[Kaiser Shepard]

The Enkindler wrote...

I you ignored the Toombs side-mission in ME does that mean your Shepard would not know that Cerberus was behind Akuze?

Yup. Which also seems like the most likely reason why BioWare never implemented any "Blame Cerberus for Akuze" dialogue option in ME2.

[tonnactus]

Skilled Seeker wrote...

It was probably a rogue cell that TIM did not know about.

Lol.Colonists transformed into husks.Rachni experiments.A little to much rogue cells,right??

[Sullax]

I pondered about this question well before the release of ME2. I really wondering, if you could discuss Akuze but TIM but alas, we were all dissapointed.



I mean Cerberus have got Shepard nearly killed in Akuze, why should Shepard stay totally calm with that fact on his mind?

[Terraneaux]

What would be nice is a team-up with Toombs' merc crew in ME3 to take down Cerberus and TIM. You could have an expository scene with Toombs to clue in the people who didn't do all the Cerberus quests in ME1. Bring Jack for added lulz.

[Ulicus]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

The Enkindler wrote...

I you ignored the Toombs side-mission in ME does that mean your Shepard would not know that Cerberus was behind Akuze?

Yup. Which also seems like the most likely reason why BioWare never implemented any "Blame Cerberus for Akuze" dialogue option in ME2.

I'm not sure it would have been that much harder than the newsfeed regarding the side-quest. We already know there's a flag for Toomb's side-mission.

[NocturnalStillness]

My Shepard was a colonist/sole survivor and I did all of the Cerberus missions in ME1. So when I played ME2 i was dissappointed about how easy Shepard can forgive and forget. Though to be fair to Bioware there were options to show you were only doing it for humanity and to stop the Reapers. The Toombs e-mail also was more bitter to my Shep as I was with Toombs on Akuze I saved him promising to take Cerberus down and end up having to work with them and have him wanting to kill me for my betrayal. I still enjoyed the game but it would have been nice to have a bit more choice in dialogue regarding the fact Cerberus nearly killed you then spend millions to bring you back when you die (ironic really, but in a way justified; Mindoir and then Akuze defines my Shepard which turned me into the kick ass savior who Cerberus find out they need to save humanity and end up spending millions of credits which stops other projects from extra funding to bring me back only for me to end up disobeying them at the end)



On a side note I mentioned in an earlier topic that I'd like to see the opportunity to relive 'Akuze' in DLC similiar to 'Ahern's survival mission' on Pinacle station.

[Ulicus]

NocturnalStillness wrote...

On a side note I mentioned in an earlier topic that I'd like to see the opportunity to relive 'Akuze' in DLC similiar to 'Ahern's survival mission' on Pinacle station.

I can see the appeal, but no thanks. The backgrounds are better left ill-defined. Then we can fill in the blanks and make them as epic as we want them to be.  I love background related missions and stuff, however.

[JamieCOTC]

Ulicus wrote...

Saint Op wrote...

Also the rouge branch is way more believalbe then everyone makes it seem.  One employee of a company can do very bad things unknown to the parent company.  If one branch starts another that starts another and he only knows of the original, well thats that.  Yes this is way toned down but one fast food employee spitting in your food does not mean the owner of that store or the president of the company spit on your food.

I could swallow this if the Cerberus we encountered in ME1 had been revealed to have gone rogue (from Cerberus, as opposed to the Alliance). However, ME2 confirms that, no, they were the Cerberus military division, they hadn't gone rogue... and they were still feeding units of marines to thresher maws!

Seriously.

Shepard: Eight years ago you fed fifty marines - and me - to thresher maws to see what they could do.
Miranda: We've changed! I believe in what Cerberus stands for.
Shepard: Two years ago, Cerberus fed admiral Kahoku's men to a thresher maw.
Miranda: Yeah, but...
Shepard: People don't change that drastically in two years. Neither do organisations.

*Que Illium*

Shepard: Well, okay, maybe ASARI change that drastically in two years. But not organisations!

Talk to Miranda a second time after completing her loyalty mission.
(Where she apologizes for doubting your ability to command the
mission). Tell her Cerberus is wrong and just before she goes on the
defensive, Miranda admits to Cerberus's wrong doing in the past. It's
very easy to miss. I didn't catch it until my 3rd playthrough. It's a
blanket statement about Cerberus in the past, which most likely covers
Akuze. There are also references to Cerberus's "dark past" throughout
the game.

NOTE: Jamie, the above is why her "blanket statement" doesn't work. She says "we've got a dark past" but then goes on to justify the experiments of the military division of Cerberus that killed Kahoku and set the thresher maw on his squad.

Sorry, should have clarified. I didn’t mean to say that her statement worked; just that she acknowledged it happened.  A lot of people seem to think, and w/ good reason, that Sole Survivor’s past wasn’t brought up at all in the game.  It was in Miri’s statement, though just barely.   Apologies for not being clear. 

[Railstay]

Funny how Survivor Shepard calls out Miranda on Cerberus experimenting with thorian creepers, rachni and husks.... But he doesn't say a peep about how Cerberus was behind his entire unit being slaughtered. It gets even weirder when you get an e-mail from Corporal Toombs about working with Cerberus, so it's not like the devs necessarily forgot about the whole thing.

[Forsakerr]

i also find stupid that you spend your time defending Cerberus with Ashley,council and what not while you were on Akuze or did the sidequests related to cerberus , when you start a new game you get a: the name sounds familiar when Jacob tells you he works for Cerberus did Shepard went braindead (well technicly he was but still) at the same time than the council ? i think the writers took the same lazy route like they did with the council