202 réponses à ce sujet

[implodinggoat]

At least Akuze got a news report Admiral Kahoku didn't get jack ****.

[Terraneaux]

Edgar1729 wrote...
All TIM dialog's and missions sounds like Shepard is an underling of TIM...and that's what she/he is until the end of the game ! TIM outsmarts Shepard (and probably every other human being of the galaxy) till that famous choice. Remember Jacob mission ? When you're dismissed at the briefing by TIM like any other crew member. There are lots of moments like that during the game. In fact I loved that aspect of the game, Shepard wasn't really in charge in ME2, and that's fine by me. It's a sound choice : just because it's a RPG doesn't mean you'll be in total control.

I disagree; in something like a computer RPG you should try really hard to give the player the illusion of choice.  Certain parts of the game seemed to be trying to rub the players' face in the idea that they work for TIM, like the Collector Ship mission (after that *I* would have walked, as it's obvious TIM was too into the idea of performing excited fellatio on himself at the thought of sending Shepard into an ambush without warning to actually bother saving the galaxy properly).  In a book, this situation might work, but this is a game, and in a game like ME you can't just tell a story; the story evolves as a result of player and designer choices.  I think the method they used was a bad choice.  

[Edgar1729]

I don't see how you can tell that it's a rule of the genre. Maintaining that illusion of choice isn't a requirement to make a good rpg. It's indeed a common opinion that players should have the illusion to be in charge in videogames, but there are many good counter examples (I'm thinking of Bioshock, or F.E.A.R. when sometimes you even lose control of your character).



Mass Effect is telling an epic story, it evolves around a broad variety of choices, but still restricted by the writing.



TIM is somehow the main character of ME2 or more precisely, the most important one. He has a superior intelligence and seems in control of the situation (he's also quite charismatic). You can top him only at the very end.

[Alneverus]

Ulicus wrote...

They're probably not any more.

In ME1, Kahoku says: It was a group called Cerberus. An Alliance black ops organisation. Top secret, highest level security clearance. They vanished a few months ago. Dropped right off the grid. Nobody knew where they went or what they were up to. They’ve gone completely rogue, Shepard. They’re conducting illegal genetic experiments, trying to create some kind of super soldier!

Doesn't really match up with the backstory from ME2's codex, but who knows? Funny how there was none of this "pro human" stuff until Ascension rolled around, too. I almost wish ME2's "Cerberus" had been an entirely different organisation.

The Codex starts with a 'manifesto' publishment on the extranet, but it doesn't really indicate anything about the beginning of the organization. The Codex entry only gives general information and unclassified information.

And on another note *Spoiler* TIM's ancestor is Dick Cheney.

[Eumerin]

implodinggoat wrote...

At least Akuze got a news report Admiral Kahoku didn't get jack ****.

If you saved both Dr. Wayne and Cpl. Toombs in the first game, then there's a news bulletin announcing that both of them will be testifying against Cerberus, and that the organization is believed to have been responsible for the death of Admiral Kahoku.

[GnusmasTHX]

implodinggoat wrote...

At least Akuze got a news report Admiral Kahoku didn't get jack ****.

Yes he did.

There's a report saying something about the investigation of Cerberus, thought to have a hand in the death of Kohaku.

[Estelindis]

Completely agree with the OP. Not being able to call out Cerberus re Akuze was totally immersion-breaking.

[Louis deGuerre]

We shall never forget and never forgive !

[Revya]

...The ones that have forgoten Akuze are the ones that gave the base to TIM.

I never forgot Akuze and so I waited and planed and once I had something that TIM was gaga for it went BOM.

To bad there is no "this is for Akuze you SOB" line.

Modifié par Revya, 24 février 2010 - 01:35 .

[JamieCOTC]

Bringing this back up because great writing should never be forgotten and bad writing should never be forgiven.

[Cascadus]

Eumerin wrote...

implodinggoat wrote...

At least Akuze got a news report Admiral Kahoku didn't get jack ****.

If you saved both Dr. Wayne and Cpl. Toombs in the first game, then there's a news bulletin announcing that both of them will be testifying against Cerberus, and that the organization is believed to have been responsible for the death of Admiral Kahoku.

Seriously? I killed that scientist personally and never regretted it. You're telling me Toombs's appeal would of went through with that doctor?
...I JUST completed my 100% completion 'main' Shepard in ME1. Curses.

[JamieCOTC]

Cascadus wrote...

Eumerin wrote...

implodinggoat wrote...

At least Akuze got a news report Admiral Kahoku didn't get jack ****.

If you saved both Dr. Wayne and Cpl. Toombs in the first game, then there's a news bulletin announcing that both of them will be testifying against Cerberus, and that the organization is believed to have been responsible for the death of Admiral Kahoku.

Seriously? I killed that scientist personally and never regretted it. You're telling me Toombs's appeal would of went through with that doctor?
...I JUST completed my 100% completion 'main' Shepard in ME1. Curses.

same here.  Damn. 

[bobsmyuncle]

Cascadus wrote...

Eumerin wrote...

If you saved both Dr. Wayne and Cpl. Toombs in the first game, then there's a news bulletin announcing that both of them will be testifying against Cerberus, and that the organization is believed to have been responsible for the death of Admiral Kahoku.

Seriously? I killed that scientist personally and never regretted it. You're telling me Toombs's appeal would of went through with that doctor?
...I JUST completed my 100% completion 'main' Shepard in ME1. Curses.

Yes, if you don't save the doctor then there is not enough evidence to bring Toombs' charges to trial, and the whole Kahoku incident is swept under the rug.

Modifié par bobsmyuncle, 28 mars 2010 - 09:05 .

[rhistel]

Well, I guess it's more or less agreed upon that BW made a mistake by downplaying the character backgrounds (and it's not only "Sole Survivor", if you choose the "Spacer" background then Shepard still has a family, and while he is helping half of his crew to solve their "family issues", he hasn't got a moment to visit his own mother?), so other than stressing this issue out to potential BW people browsing through here, continuing this thread has little purpose left, I think.



On the other hand I think BW is trying something completely new with ME trilogy, I don't know any other game that at least tries to carry some of your choices from one game to another, so while the "All of your choice will have an impact on the next game's story" promise was a little exagerated when it comes to ME 2, still there is quite an impressive number of decisions that did make it to the second game as a little more than an e-mail. So while it isn't perfect, it's something completely new and deserves some praise at the very least.

[JamieCOTC]

rhistel wrote...

Well, I guess it's more or less agreed upon that BW made a mistake by downplaying the character backgrounds (and it's not only "Sole Survivor", if you choose the "Spacer" background then Shepard still has a family, and while he is helping half of his crew to solve their "family issues", he hasn't got a moment to visit his own mother?), so other than stressing this issue out to potential BW people browsing through here, continuing this thread has little purpose left, I think.

On the other hand I think BW is trying something completely new with ME trilogy, I don't know any other game that at least tries to carry some of your choices from one game to another, so while the "All of your choice will have an impact on the next game's story" promise was a little exagerated when it comes to ME 2, still there is quite an impressive number of decisions that did make it to the second game as a little more than an e-mail. So while it isn't perfect, it's something completely new and deserves some praise at the very least.

I do agree.  The importability was oversold.  Still, I can't help feeling we will be going rthrough this again w/ another elephant in the room come ME3.  <_<

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

this sums up why.







Then there would be no Cerberus Normandy for us.

[MatrixTheRenegade]

I'm bumping this thread for the sole reason that yes, I was a sole survivor, and yes, I was pissed off by the treatment of the SS backstory in this game.  I guess I'm just kind of hoping that one more voice will add more demand and pressure to BW to get it right in ME3 and maybe make up for lost potential, however little.  Hey, fan feedback got rid of the mako, and I liked exploring planets, dammit.

Some apologists act like doing justice to backstories (for ALL character types, not just the SS) is some impossible and monumental task.  All I have to say is... no.  No, it really, really isn't.  ME1 did a damn fine job of doing these character archetypes justice.  I figured that was why they, y'know, only had three variables for either backstory slot.  So they COULD do ithem justice.

Toombs and the Cerberus reveal was a brilliant storyline, I was in no way prepared for such a gutwrenching plot twist in a side mission.  The fact that Cerberus was up to their old tricks once again and ultimately murdered one of the Alliance's top soldiers in cold blood gave that whole backstory arc some serious weight.

That's doing it justice.  And for christ's sakes, it's not hard.  They did it in the first game; it'd require no more time or commitment to do it a second time.  How about a loyalty mission of shep's own, hm?

Likewise, Colonist had a minor and yet very meaningful impact on the game.  I found my renegade shepard being kind and soft-spoken to someone, for pretty much the first time.  I've just started a new game as a Ruthless Earthborn and am surprised by the very different reputation I have.  And running into Finch outside Chora's Den triggered another 10/10 side mission that does great justice to backstory, once again.  I tried to free my old friend before finding out how things had changed since the Earth days, and decided not to.  Finch tried to blackmail me -- I gunned him down.

This is great stuff.  This is essential stuff.  This is what DEFINES Mass Effect!

These are the little things that made Mass Effect my favorite game, and the oversights that make Mass Effect 2 a great shooter with an above-average story/character development, and nothing more.

But I could have begrudgingly accepted the total non-factor of shep's backstory in ME2.  I'd still hate it, but it would be acceptable.  Having this constant whitewashing of Cerberus rubbed all over my face and being forced to sputter vague notions of distrust (at best... sometimes I found myself defending them or my allegiance to them no matter WHAT option I chose) on the other hand, and having no less than like a dozen conversations where Akuze becomes completely relevant and not being able to say a thing about it, is absolutely insulting.  And don't get me started about how old romances are basically put to pasture as abruptly and railroadingly as possible, with new romances pushed in your face more brazenly than ever.  Ugh, man.  Horizon.  Ugh.

This is supposed to be your story and character-driven opus.  Stop snapping my spine by contorting things beyond reason.  It's not immersive, it's not fun, it's not satisfying, and most importantly, it's not good writing.

As far as I'm concerned, Mass Effect 1 bought BW all kinds of admiration, but ME2 (for all its technical genius in other areas) snatched it all back and ran off a cliff with it.  I feel owed.  

I don't know what I want.  I want whatever would work best.  Facing off against Toombs and being able to either kill or recruit him would be cool, and it wouldn't fit only the SS.  Like the great backstory missions of ME1, it'd fit any character in an interesting way, but bring something really special to one of them (SS).  Or maybe a visit to the Akuze memorial.  That'd really be something.  I at the very least expect to be able to mention Akuze and all that suffering in some kind of confrontation with TIM.  Preferably while using my fist to drill his face into the nice glossy floor of his office... through his skull.

[JamieCOTC]

What's really galling is that Shep actually does confront Miranda about Cerberus "atrocities." You'd think Akuze would be the first to come up. Yes, SS does have a different history w/ Cerberus that the other Shepards do not have.  Extra dialog would have to be added that no other Shep would get, but then they did that in ME1. So it's not a limitation of the medium, but I have to wonder if it is a limitation of time and resources or of vision?

edit: I asked Mac Walters via Twitter, "Will Shep's background come into up in ME3? Sole Survivor especially seems to have some unfinished business w/ Cerberus."

This was his responce.  "Shepard's backgrounds will still have a role to play in ME3."
http://twitter.com/#...373253353832448

Modifié par JamieCOTC, 24 août 2011 - 02:40 .

[wolfennights]

Terraneaux wrote...

anmiro wrote...

OverlordNexas wrote...

Its especially glaring as Miranda and Jacob ASK you what happened on Akuze, but you get no option to tell them that it was Cerberus's fault

Really, when does this happen?

In the shuttle immediately after the Lazarus project station at the beginning of the game.

What peeved me off on the shuttle was the shallowness of it.

Miranda: Your memory seems solid. There are other tests we really should run-



Jacob: Come on Miranda, enough with the quizzes.

D:

[MatrixTheRenegade]

Yeah that was just bad all over really. I don't blame them for the shallowness though since it was just to make up for how they forgot to put a save after you choose a new councilor and the psych profile question was just to tie it into the "memory test" facade. But I do blame them for having the kind of clipboard wielder that ruined SS Shep's life have the audacity to ask him about it and not have Shep even able to say a rude comment, much less give her the hellstorm she deserves.

Hell, I'd have loved a renegade interrupt that has Shep just clamp his hand around her throat and slam her head up against the wall, and let her know she has no right to ever mention that **** again. It'd even justify the fact that shepard never brings it up when yelling at cerberus people. Well not really, but it would make the whole game run 10x less immersion shatteringly.

That tweet has me curious though. Do you think it's just a general response to fan disappointment with backstory stuff in ME3 and they're gonna bring it back in a ME1-like capacity? Or do you think they've REALLY listened to the fans on this one (ala the mako ditch and the mining thing it seems), particularly with Sole Survivor disappointment, and will try to really weave it in there? I'd seriously love nothing more than to have a one sentence BW comment that says "we goofed a bit, especially with sole survivors, but we'll more than make up for it in the conclusion."

That'd be the final push into preorder territory for me, I think. Me and a lot of people

[d1sciple]

it's all for the sake of the story. imo this story is about TIM, NOT the reapers, they're just a catalyst, an event. TIM is keyser soze, so it makes sense to have shep almost completely forget ME1 otherwise their story would end, but that makes it frustrating for us who had an emotional connection with ME1, seeing shep just getting on with business when he should've been avenging all the lives we'd seen destroyed by cerberus in ME1. on the other hand this is a classic 'heroes journey' tale, our shep has to overcome a part of himself before he can overcome the great external struggle, which again is TIM. i try to remember that when i start getting pissed at stuff like jacks loyalty mission and overlord where in the mission summary TIM reprimands you for saving david, what a wanker. what i think bw are onto with talking about ME1 being a big part of ME3 is the whole TIM being keyser soze and personally i can't wait to stick my eviscerate up his ass and ruin his day.

[MatrixTheRenegade]

I'm not one of the people all butthurt about working for Cerberus. It's the direction they took their story, and Cerberu really was the only way to stop the Collectors. It's all good in the hood there.

My issue is that Shepard doesn't "overcome" a damn thing as far as his Cerberus demons go. They're a total nonfactor, literally all the time, all the way through the game. Even when they matter and are relevant. How hard would it be to bring up Akuze on occasion, or to try to refuse TIM's offer at first, only to be strongarmed into doing the work regardless? Jack's loyalty mission could have been a big buyback too for SS Sheps if it weren't for the standard whitewash "rogue cell" argument and oh hey now the station is abandoned so it's an entirely sentimental mission, not one that would hurt Cerberus a bit. I really feel like BW decided to throw backstory to the wind like funeral ashes and shoehorn you into a Cerberus lackey just because they love the concept of the organization, which bastardizes the thing that drew people to ME in the first place. The love for the characters and the drama, the little details. No razzledazzle's gonna distract me from an absence therein.

But, yeah. I'm still wondering about that comment. I really, really want this to be one of those Mako/mining-esque concessions, a big thing. Had we gotten ME1-style weaving between plot and backstory all the way through the trilogy I'd be fine with it having only minor influence in ME3, but they slapped the face of a lot of real ME fans imo with ME2's railroad and I'd love to see them take real steps to make up for it.

[d1sciple]

na i don't think it's quite like that, i think that shepard is blind and has himself put that behind him because in his mind nothing matters but the reapers. for him to overcome them though he will have to overcome that conflict within himself before he will be able to see the true enemy. you gotta remember that this is a sequel too, so it's job is to flesh out characters, flesh out the universe and show us the truth which we finally get at the end. it's a classic 'heroes journey'. shep has been used by TIM, he ignored his own ethics to blindly follow the path he though was right. cerberus was his only chance to stop the apocalypse but that meant he had to forget the past, and he does, he spends his time completely focused on the reapers/collectors because TIM says they are the bad guy and only i can help you, regardless of even more evidence of cerberus evil that you pick up along the way. only at the end does shep finally see the truth, it's classic story telling.

[MatrixTheRenegade]

You're just extrapolating things that aren't really there, though. You're turning an absence of character development into implied character development. Furthermore, this is an RPG, right? My Shep should be able to hate Cerberus as much as would make sense, it's not like that's a SS-specific point of view. It's not like I'm saying we should have the option to refuse to do the mission altogether heh. But why shouldn't Shepard be able to tell Jack about Akuze, shut Miranda's trap when she brings it up, tell his/her old flame on Horizon that he still despises Cerberus and will ultimately defect, and is using them as a means to an end? These options are not much to ask. Their relevance is direct and apparent, total no-brainer game design/writing, but BW chose not to give you these options, and it is grating.

The strength of ME1 was that you could shape the personality and thinking of your Shepard and play it out in their dialogue and actions. ME2 railroads you into the narrow scope of either "guardedly willing" or "completely aloof and willing" and a number of conversations force you to defend Cerberus in some way or another. You're retrofitting this railroading to argue that it works, but it goes against one of the core foundations of the ME experience by forcing a perspective down your throat regardless of your own insight. If they'd at least given a sense that Shepard is "overcoming" some kind of struggle (working with Cerberus) and given me actual dialogue intricacy, I wouldn't be here, making this post.

That railroad hindsight analysis might work for your Shepard, but it doesn't for mine, and it doesn't for a lot of Shepards.

[d1sciple]

there's no freedom to move in ME2 cos the story has to be so linear. ME1's was alot more open because it's goal was strictly to introduce the universe, the protagonist and the antagonist(both of them), nothing else, you character was free in a way. if shep doesn't blindly swallow everything TIM throws at him in ME2 though there'd be no no personal overcoming, no real discovery, no bomb drop when TIM turns on him, and that's an integral part of this trilogy. if TIM turned on him and shep went big deal then the story would flop. he's gotta be shocked, at himself, at TIM, at the truth. we're playing empire strikes back or lotr: the two towers, we need that moment that luke finds out the real bad guy is the emperor and vader's his dad, we need the saruman(collectors) to chase blindly while the real bad guys are in the background preparing. there are things they could've done better, there always is but in this sequel the story has to be really linear for it to come together. if you start ME2 with no import it gives you a default backstory, which can be completely opposite to an import, but i don't think ME3 will have as much room to move, so ME2 has to be more controlled. killing the council or saving them are huge opposites and we're never really faced with anything like that in ME2, hell lotsb even goes so far as to nearly confirm that no matter what liara will be your li in ME3. i think ME3 will be alot more open, there's no predefined story that it has to lead in to, so they can go crazy and i'm hoping/predicting that your shep can go crazy too. as far as character development goes ME2 is huge, what are you not seeing? every single team mate is fleshed out really well, lots of room to move, lots of backstory. it expands awesomely on your old teamates, they've all grown and changed and you get a deeper sense of who they are, the only character that isn't expanded on is shep and that's due to story constraints. that can be frustrating but you have to remember that this is the second act/sequel of a bigger story.