31 réponses à ce sujet

[Quackk_Attack]

Who is looking forward to kicking the crap out of her and The Architect?

Anyone but me?

Her betrayal was sickening, seeing as Kell and Hafter were my favorite characters.

[Maria Caliban]

Whom?

[Quackk_Attack]

Utha....Dwarf Silent Sister, The Calling. Ringing any bells Ms. Maria? Or have you not read it yet?

[Ser Jory-]

I dont know if I could fight Utha, I really liked her a lot. The Architect on the other hand is a different story I hope we can beat the crap out of him.

[Red Viking]

I don't think you could call it a betrayal, or at least, not betrayal in the sense that she committed the ultimate sin. The conflict between the Gray Wardens and the Architect was pretty much over ideology, not morality. I can honestly say that I think Utha did what she thought was right.



Gray Wardens will slaughter a town if it's been infected by the darkspawn taint so it's not like they have the moral high ground here. This is a very gray area.



The Blights kill thousands of humans every time. And every time, humanity barely beats it back. If you had the chance to stop that, why wouldn't you take it, no matter what the cost? Especially when you're used to doing what is necessary?

[Isaantia]

I'm crazy weirded out that she joined with him. Was the Blight what killed her family? Its going to be sad when we meet up with her again.



She is one of my favorite characters in the Calling.



I don't think the Architect is evil so much as naive. He seems so lonely.

[Maria Caliban]

Quackk_Attack wrote...

Utha....Dwarf Silent Sister, The Calling. Ringing any bells Ms. Maria? Or have you not read it yet?

I haven't read it yet. That's why I'm asking.  

[Quackk_Attack]

Red Viking wrote...

I don't think you could call it a betrayal, or at least, not betrayal in the sense that she committed the ultimate sin. The conflict between the Gray Wardens and the Architect was pretty much over ideology, not morality. I can honestly say that I think Utha did what she thought was right.

Gray Wardens will slaughter a town if it's been infected by the darkspawn taint so it's not like they have the moral high ground here. This is a very gray area.

The Blights kill thousands of humans every time. And every time, humanity barely beats it back. If you had the chance to stop that, why wouldn't you take it, no matter what the cost? Especially when you're used to doing what is necessary?

I understand where you are coming from friend.  But, if I had a chance to stop The Blight by turning myself into one of those vile creatures would I do it? Not in a million years. Would I trust a thing that can lead the filth? Never. 

How I see it is, there is a reason for The Calling.  To die an honorable death, and kill as many of those bastards as possible.  Turning all humans, dwarves, and elves into Grey's which would then lead them to darkspawn; that's a terrible thought.  Even if I have a shorter time period to live because of the darkspawn blood in me, doesn't mean I need to be more heroic and try for the ultimate solution.  The ultimate solution will come in time.  If it's meant to happen, it will.  I would much rather march side to side with other Warden's through the Deep Roads to end it once and for all, then turn into one and attempt to turn my people, the people I protected from the darkspawn, into them.  The idea is just outrageous to me.

[Korva]

I haven't read the book, but that does sound like a deal with the devil to me. No way any of my characters would agree to it.

[Red Viking]

Quackk_Attack wrote...

Red Viking wrote...

I don't think you could call it a betrayal, or at least, not betrayal in the sense that she committed the ultimate sin. The conflict between the Gray Wardens and the Architect was pretty much over ideology, not morality. I can honestly say that I think Utha did what she thought was right.

Gray Wardens will slaughter a town if it's been infected by the darkspawn taint so it's not like they have the moral high ground here. This is a very gray area.

The Blights kill thousands of humans every time. And every time, humanity barely beats it back. If you had the chance to stop that, why wouldn't you take it, no matter what the cost? Especially when you're used to doing what is necessary?

I understand where you are coming from friend.  But, if I had a chance to stop The Blight by turning myself into one of those vile creatures would I do it? Not in a million years. Would I trust a thing that can lead the filth? Never. 

How I see it is, there is a reason for The Calling.  To die an honorable death, and kill as many of those bastards as possible.  Turning all humans, dwarves, and elves into Grey's which would then lead them to darkspawn; that's a terrible thought.  Even if I have a shorter time period to live because of the darkspawn blood in me, doesn't mean I need to be more heroic and try for the ultimate solution.  The ultimate solution will come in time.  If it's meant to happen, it will.  I would much rather march side to side with other Warden's through the Deep Roads to end it once and for all, then turn into one and attempt to turn my people, the people I protected from the darkspawn, into them.  The idea is just outrageous to me.

The Architect's very existance proves that there's something more going on that we don't know about.  Isn't there a possibility that our decisions are influenced by the preconceptions that all darkspawn must be evil?  Grey Wardens turn into darkspawn if they live long enough and being tainted, in of itself, does not automatically make them want to dystroy all life as we know it.  The Architect couldn't have said it better: They don't die, they just change.  And isn't that one of life's inevitabilities?  That change occurs?

The Chantry states that the darkspawn are evil and they are the result from the hubris of mages.  But, let's be honest, how many people here completely trusts what the Chantry says?

The Calling pretty much proved that the darkspawn have absolutely no choice but to search for the Old Gods and start the Blight.  If one of them wanted to stop this from happening, why shouldn't we listen to it?  What if that is the ultimate solution: To work with the darkspawn with free will to dystroy the Old Gods before the Blights can begin?  The only thing that's been accomplished during each Blight is beating them back and waiting until the next one occurs.  

Modifié par Red Viking, 17 octobre 2009 - 03:37 .

[Quackk_Attack]

Red Viking wrote...

Quackk_Attack wrote...

Red Viking wrote...

I don't think you could call it a betrayal, or at least, not betrayal in the sense that she committed the ultimate sin. The conflict between the Gray Wardens and the Architect was pretty much over ideology, not morality. I can honestly say that I think Utha did what she thought was right.

Gray Wardens will slaughter a town if it's been infected by the darkspawn taint so it's not like they have the moral high ground here. This is a very gray area.

The Blights kill thousands of humans every time. And every time, humanity barely beats it back. If you had the chance to stop that, why wouldn't you take it, no matter what the cost? Especially when you're used to doing what is necessary?

I understand where you are coming from friend.  But, if I had a chance to stop The Blight by turning myself into one of those vile creatures would I do it? Not in a million years. Would I trust a thing that can lead the filth? Never. 

How I see it is, there is a reason for The Calling.  To die an honorable death, and kill as many of those bastards as possible.  Turning all humans, dwarves, and elves into Grey's which would then lead them to darkspawn; that's a terrible thought.  Even if I have a shorter time period to live because of the darkspawn blood in me, doesn't mean I need to be more heroic and try for the ultimate solution.  The ultimate solution will come in time.  If it's meant to happen, it will.  I would much rather march side to side with other Warden's through the Deep Roads to end it once and for all, then turn into one and attempt to turn my people, the people I protected from the darkspawn, into them.  The idea is just outrageous to me.

The Architect's very existance proves that there's something more going on that we don't know about.  Isn't there a possibility that our decisions are influenced by the preconceptions that all darkspawn must be evil?  Grey Wardens turn into darkspawn if they live long enough and being tainted, in of itself, does not automatically make them want to dystroy all life as we know it.  The Architect couldn't have said it better: They don't die, they just change.  And isn't that one of life's inevitabilities?  That change occurs?

The Chantry states that the darkspawn are evil and they are the result from the hubris of mages.  But, let's be honest, how many people here completely trusts what the Chantry says?

The Calling pretty much proved that the darkspawn have absolutely no choice but to search for the Old Gods and start the Blight.  If one of them wanted to stop this from happening, why shouldn't we listen to it?  What if that is the ultimate solution: To work with the darkspawn with free will to dystroy the Old Gods before the Blights can begin?  The only thing that's been accomplished during each Blight is beating them back and waiting until the next one occurs.  

Very good points, BUT, as The Architect said: They don't die, they just change. You say one of life's inevitabilities is change. Isn't one also death?

You are correct, no one trusts what the Chantry says.  But I can honestly tell you if something continues to rise from the ground with a leader of great might trying to kill all of humanity, I'm for sure as hell not going to join forces with them. 

That could be a solution or even the solution, I agree with you.  I'm just saying that I would never be one to do it.  Anything that has almost executed genocide on an entire continent does not deserve our trust, or our help.  They deserve our blades through the hearts, and their heads on the ground.

[Red Viking]

Quackk_Attack wrote...

Red Viking wrote...

Quackk_Attack wrote...

Red Viking wrote...

I don't think you could call it a betrayal, or at least, not betrayal in the sense that she committed the ultimate sin. The conflict between the Gray Wardens and the Architect was pretty much over ideology, not morality. I can honestly say that I think Utha did what she thought was right.

Gray Wardens will slaughter a town if it's been infected by the darkspawn taint so it's not like they have the moral high ground here. This is a very gray area.

The Blights kill thousands of humans every time. And every time, humanity barely beats it back. If you had the chance to stop that, why wouldn't you take it, no matter what the cost? Especially when you're used to doing what is necessary?

I understand where you are coming from friend.  But, if I had a chance to stop The Blight by turning myself into one of those vile creatures would I do it? Not in a million years. Would I trust a thing that can lead the filth? Never. 

How I see it is, there is a reason for The Calling.  To die an honorable death, and kill as many of those bastards as possible.  Turning all humans, dwarves, and elves into Grey's which would then lead them to darkspawn; that's a terrible thought.  Even if I have a shorter time period to live because of the darkspawn blood in me, doesn't mean I need to be more heroic and try for the ultimate solution.  The ultimate solution will come in time.  If it's meant to happen, it will.  I would much rather march side to side with other Warden's through the Deep Roads to end it once and for all, then turn into one and attempt to turn my people, the people I protected from the darkspawn, into them.  The idea is just outrageous to me.

The Architect's very existance proves that there's something more going on that we don't know about.  Isn't there a possibility that our decisions are influenced by the preconceptions that all darkspawn must be evil?  Grey Wardens turn into darkspawn if they live long enough and being tainted, in of itself, does not automatically make them want to dystroy all life as we know it.  The Architect couldn't have said it better: They don't die, they just change.  And isn't that one of life's inevitabilities?  That change occurs?

The Chantry states that the darkspawn are evil and they are the result from the hubris of mages.  But, let's be honest, how many people here completely trusts what the Chantry says?

The Calling pretty much proved that the darkspawn have absolutely no choice but to search for the Old Gods and start the Blight.  If one of them wanted to stop this from happening, why shouldn't we listen to it?  What if that is the ultimate solution: To work with the darkspawn with free will to dystroy the Old Gods before the Blights can begin?  The only thing that's been accomplished during each Blight is beating them back and waiting until the next one occurs.  

Very good points, BUT, as The Architect said: They don't die, they just change. You say one of life's inevitabilities is change. Isn't one also death?

You are correct, no one trusts what the Chantry says.  But I can honestly tell you if something continues to rise from the ground with a leader of great might trying to kill all of humanity, I'm for sure as hell not going to join forces with them. 

That could be a solution or even the solution, I agree with you.  I'm just saying that I would never be one to do it.  Anything that has almost executed genocide on an entire continent does not deserve our trust, or our help.  They deserve our blades through the hearts, and their heads on the ground.

True.  When all you know about the darkspawn is that they rise up and kill everything in sight, it would be very hard to think of them as anything else.  Putting your trust in a darkspawn to say what he means would require a tremendous leap of faith from what you know vs. the unknown.

As for the genocide part though, I'm pretty sure the Dalish elves would feel a similar way towards humans.

imported_beer wrote...

Ah well...I didn't know there was a dialogue happening. Sorry to butt in.

You weren't butting in, no need to apologize.

I agree with you on Utha.  At the very worst, she's a tragic figure.

Modifié par Red Viking, 17 octobre 2009 - 04:51 .

[Quackk_Attack]

That's true about the Dalish, forgot about them for a second there.



I had never thought about her like that. She is a very tragic character I agree. And she has never had a break from the darkspawn, her decision makes a lot of sense. I just can't fathom how she can become what she hated so much. Something I could never do, I'm a fight for what you believe in, a solution will present itself kinda guy.



I respect Utha, just don't agree with her.

[pharos_gryphon]

Something that might help to understand the context of the character and her choice however, is precisely how the situation is put to her. Bregan, her previous commander and all around liked guy whom they're down there to either save or kill before the Darkspawn can extract his secrets, asks her to speed up a process that's already occurring to her. The Architect's plan isn't so much of a Light Side/Dark Side issue, as it is a question of, "Do the ends justify the means?"



This will be the -fifth- Blight in history. Every time one occurs, the world as a whole is nearly wiped out and we survive just barely by the skin of our teeth. How many more times will we have before luck just isn't on our side and we lose? There's no real known number as to how many Old Gods are left. The Architect's stated plan is one of a permanent peace between the Darkspawn and the Living, but that requires sacrifice from both sides. On the side of the Darkspawn, he wants to kill all the Old Gods before they can reach them, thereby stopping the Blights. However their numbers would still grow, and they'd still attack the living. Our sacrifice, would be everyone in the world going through the Joining like the Wardens do, since when the final stages are reached, Wardens retain their will and their own minds unlike Darkspawn, but that Darkspawn consider them 'one of us' and no longer are hostile towards them.



So, a plague who's survivors are all immune to the Darkspawn despite some physical changes, and peace with an eternal foe... or roll the dice time and time again and hope that we never, ever, lose even once. It's not entirely as cut and dry a situation as it might seem at first glance.

[Quackk_Attack]

I agree, but I would much rather roll the dice. I'm a very lucky person naturally, so I guess things will work out! .

[Vagula]

I haven't read the The Calling least yeat so I got to ask one question. If the Grey Wardens just ignore the calling wouldn't they simply turn into ghouls and die? Wouldn't everyone just die eventually if they would go through the joining?

Modifié par Vagula, 20 octobre 2009 - 04:42 .

[Red Viking]

Vagula wrote...

I haven't read the The Calling least yeat so I got to ask one question. If the Grey Wardens just ignore the calling wouldn't they simply turn into ghouls and die? Wouldn't everyone just die eventually if they would go through the joining?

It's different for Grey Wardens.  Grey Wardens seem to be people with an inherent resistance to the darkspawn taint.  As a result, it does not kill them. 

[Korva]

pharos_gryphon wrote...

Our sacrifice, would be everyone in the world going through the Joining like the Wardens do, since when the final stages are reached, Wardens retain their will and their own minds unlike Darkspawn, but that Darkspawn consider them 'one of us' and no longer are hostile towards them.

Not having read the book, I find this a bit confusing. The trailer Warden's Calling shows a fellow going into the Deep Roads for his last battle, and the darkspawn sure are hostile towards him. Is the state you mention a step beyond that, meaning if the Calling is ignored too long or answered too late, the darkspawn would treat a Warden as a buddy?

Somehow that creeps me out far more than the idea of going into the Deep Roads to die. (I love a  good heroic death for my characters.)

[pharos_gryphon]

It's a gradual process. First comes the calling proper, a song they hear in their head. Then the actual compulsion to go down into the deep roads. Then over an unspecified length of time, slowly begin to change. Only after that point (which is also the period when the vast bulk of Grey Wardens die on the Calling) do they finally start being seen as Darkspawn by other Darkspawn. In the book, the process goes quickly, like a couple weeks due to some other circumstances, normally though, it takes a good deal longer, and most folks dont go down into the tunnels planning to set up a house and have supplies for a couple months.

[Khaylis]

Lets start this off with the part about  where the Architect states "I had hoped to lure more Grey Wardens into the Deep Roads". What about the part after the lighting attack from the First Enchanter Remille where the Architect says"But...the Blight".  Remille responds "What do I care about the Blight?".  This can be interpreted two ways one the Architect can be taken at face value and intends to do exactley what he told Bregan he would do.  Or he needed Bregan for his own unsaid purposes.  The Architect got the location of the old gods from Bregan, two he had a side deal going with the Orlaisians.  Three he knew when the taint was strong enough in the exgrey wardens they would become consumed only with hate and be consumed with blood lust as Bregan was begining to show signs of in the tower.  The Architect wanted as many Grey wardens as possable in the deep roads, hopeing to excelerate there taints and create super soldier dark spawn highbrids out of them.  Thus creating in the end the mother of all blights.

[Joel171]

Khaylis wrote...

Lets start this off with the part about  where the Architect states "I had hoped to lure more Grey Wardens into the Deep Roads". What about the part after the lighting attack from the First Enchanter Remille where the Architect says"But...the Blight".  Remille responds "What do I care about the Blight?".  This can be interpreted two ways one the Architect can be taken at face value and intends to do exactley what he told Bregan he would do.  Or he needed Bregan for his own unsaid purposes.  The Architect got the location of the old gods from Bregan, two he had a side deal going with the Orlaisians.  Three he knew when the taint was strong enough in the exgrey wardens they would become consumed only with hate and be consumed with blood lust as Bregan was begining to show signs of in the tower.  The Architect wanted as many Grey wardens as possable in the deep roads, hopeing to excelerate there taints and create super soldier dark spawn highbrids out of them.  Thus creating in the end the mother of all blights.

This I agree with. If you put together all the evidence from the books. The Architect knowingly having the brooches used to accelerate the taint in the Wardens, to his slip of the tounge, so to speak, about luring them down there. He may have good intentions, but with Fiona's revelation about how Warden's have an incredibly low chance to conceive children, this leads to one thing, the eventual extermination to all life.

If what the Architect plans, everyone would go through the Joining. This would, in turn kill the majority of the population. The remaning pouplace would then be subject to increadibly low birthrates, thus dwindling the already low population pf Humans, Elves, and Dwarves. What it all points to is a more subtle, yet equally devistating form of the Blight. It is also a more sure shot in the long run of success for the Darkspawn. When the plan is all over, mankind (dwarves and elves, too) dwindle down to nothing, leaving the world to nothing but Darkspawn.

It isn't a valid choice. It won't stop the Blights. It will only unleash a new kind of Blight.

Modifié par Joel171, 26 octobre 2009 - 08:53 .

[TuringPoint]

I feel sorry for Utha. I couldn't really make sense of her actions; but people do crazy things.

I do believe the Architect was trying to help the situation, but human nature was foreign to him.  The telling moment for me was when Bregan realized his emotional capacity had significantly altered.  That's when I decided the Architect was definitely a villain.  There would be no more hunger, but a significant part of us - emotion - that drove us to do anything besides eat and sleep would also be missing.

I've been more understanding of many villains who were given less explanation for their actions.

That said, once the humanoid races of Thedas had changed, would they care for much longer that everything had changed?  

Modifié par Alocormin, 27 octobre 2009 - 06:30 .