170 réponses à ce sujet

[Ahzrei]

Harrowmont is the better man.



Bhelen is the better King.



Harrowmont will live and rule a long time if you preserve the Anvil of the Void and put him on the throne, but he furthers the dwarves seclusion from the world. He's a traditionalist.



Bhelen lives whether or not you preserve the anvil, but... Well he's Bhelen. Don't give him the Anvil. He's a better king, and does a lot to modernize the dwarves and bring them into the rest of society.

[aprilia1k]

I disagree. I think the most sage response to this thread was from TBastian:



"There is no "good" dwarf ending.

Bhelen's rule -> Noble Rebellion (remember what he did goes against everything that the dwarf society stands for) -> Possible Revolution + Darkspawn waiting -> Fall of Orzammar. There's some nice stuff at first, but Bhelen is just forcing the dwarves to change way too fast. The result is inevitable.



Harrowmont's death -> Possible Revolution + Darkspawn waiting -> Fall of Orzammar.



Both represent polar extremes, neither will work."



imho, Bhelen is a self-serving Dictator who kills any and all who oppose (the definition of a good, or better king perhaps?) -- and in fact, it is implied that the difficulties faced following Harrowmont's crowning are due to extreme opposition at most every turn in his rule (perhaps he would be a better king if he beheaded all of his opposition). Anyway - yeah, just couldn't back a total douchebag for king... and fact is --- when deciding which one to back, we aren't privvy to the future prosperity or lack thereof. I was dissappointed - it was clear to me that Harrowmont was a good man but that the scumbag factor was still just too huge for he and his regime to overcome while remaining honorable.

[Drasanil]

aprilia1k wrote...

"Bhelen every time" -
WRONG. Harrowmont has far more honor in every different scenario-- and Bhelen being "kind of douchie" is like saying the fricking ocean is a wee bit damp. You must yourself be the scoundrel type.

Lol!

when dozens of other more clearly spelled-out scenes show that they were definitely faked. Oh well -- it is funny to see someone defending the clear scumbag --

Ya so Bhelen faked the notes? You're missing the point that -faked or not- the whole scheme wouldn't have worked unless Harrowmont was double dealing Helmi and Dace in the first place. Face it your hero isn't squeaky clean, and goes into full moral bankruptcy if you give him the Anvil.

[aprilia1k]

I think it's just inconsistent dialogue - they believe the lie, not proof it's a lie

Anyway - yeah, he's my hero man - printed a big ol' poster of Dwarf King Harromont for my bedroom wall

whatever friend, one man's scumbag is another's king and vice verse, clearly

enjoy

Modifié par aprilia1k, 07 mars 2010 - 09:10 .

[TBastian]

Bhelen abolishing the assembly is based upon precedent. An ancient king had abolished the assembly during the last blight, ruling that the military should report directly to the king during times of crisis.

Bhelen is abolishing the assembly for his own sake. Not the dwarves'.

You should also pay more attention to Orzammar. All that backstabbing that Bhelen does? All the manipulations? That is EXACTLY the dwarven way of life. The only way he defied it was by allowing the casteless into the military. And, considering that the paragons are considered the voice of the ancients, a paragon gave you the crown and told you to chose a king, and you (in this setting) chose Bhelen--he has the blessings of the ancients by virtue of holding the throne. Everything he does is with their will.

Then why would his father give the crown away at the last moment?

Bhelen every time, sure he seems unpleasant and kind of douchie, but Harrowmont is just better at hiding it. The proof is in the first mission, whether or not Vartag faked the promisary notes, the trick wouldn't have worked unless Harrowmont actually was double dealing both houses, other wise only one of them would have turned on him at best. This is backed up when Bhelen actually gives your PC credit, for grasping how Orzammar actually works, as opposed to Harrowmont who plays the innocent goody-two-shoes infront of you.

This only proves that Harrowmont is a politician. If you decide to back Harrowmont, you also read the letter King Aeducan sends to him. The contents of the letter accurately reflect the happenings in Orzammar before the King's death.
Finally, since we're bringing in meta-gaming knowledge, Harrowmont tries to support Bhelen even when you king Bhelen instead. He lets the dwarf noble assume the throne, and plays a key role to saving the dwarf noble in his origin. THAT is Harrowmont's true nature. Very different from the backstabbing, kill-my-own-brothers-for-power nature of Bhelen.

Bhelen is just smart. He knows that pursuit for power and doing "good" things for others are not mutually exclusive. When forced to choose though, he'd really rather have power. He has shown that he will kill even family/friends for it.

The darkspawn threaten all. Even someone like Flemmeth is helping you defeat it.

Modifié par TBastian, 07 mars 2010 - 10:31 .

[zevran]

The way I see it is that Bhelen is the obvious choice if your playing as a true grey warden, set on stopping the blight, as he would be the best military leader, as strict as he is.

Harrowmont would be the choice if I was playing a  more compassionate, grey warden, as he would be the more "gentle" on the city, but a poor military leader

thats how I look at them, a tyrant that will save the world     , or a limp noodle who won't break anything.

[TBastian]

Perhaps if the dwarven society was less structured, less set into its ways and perhaps if the darkspawn wasn't already knocking at their gate I'd believe that something good can come out of Bhelen's rule.

As things are though, I really doubt that.

[mousestalker]

One persuasive reason that hasn't been stated is that if you pickpocket Bhelen and his second and Harrowmount and his second, you get better items from Bhelen's crew.



Bhelen has better stuff.

[Hahren]

The best ending for the dwarfs in my opinion is a dwarf noble choosing Harrowmont.



Otherwise, it's six of one, half a dozen of the other.

[xzxzxz701]

zevran wrote...

The way I see it is that Bhelen is the obvious choice if your playing as a true grey warden, set on stopping the blight, as he would be the best military leader, as strict as he is.

Harrowmont would be the choice if I was playing a  more compassionate, grey warden, as he would be the more "gentle" on the city, but a poor military leader

thats how I look at them, a tyrant that will save the world     , or a limp noodle who won't break anything.

You will be commanding the Dwarves armys against the blight, not the Dwarf king.

[Dansayshi]

Bhelen always based on the epilogue. In Orzammar, Bhelen is dirty as hell, will do anything to win it seems, while Harrowmount seems to be the "victim"



When the epilogue rolls out tho Harrowmount balls things up, Bhelen gets things done and gets the more positive ending. Unless your a dwarvern noble.

[this isnt my name]

Ok so what does the ending say if I give bhelen the anvil/dont give harromont the anvil, or dont give bhelan the anvil, I want the best outcome because harromont realy messed things up.

[MorGothic]

this isnt my name wrote...

Ok so what does the ending say if I give bhelen the anvil/dont give harromont the anvil, or dont give bhelan the anvil, I want the best outcome because harromont realy messed things up.

It seems to me the best ending possible is Behlen without the Anvil.

The Epilogue Slides can be found here

[Masticetobbacco]

there is ONE good dwarf ending



if you are a noble dwarf and you choose harrowmont to be king. If you made friends with him in your origin story and throughout the orzammar portion of the game, he will appoint you to be his sucessor.

[Agni108]

I am about to play a dwarf noble (second time) and this time I will side with my "beloved" brother Bhelen, at least until I get before the assembly. Then its payback time. I will double cross him just like he double crossed me, and get the pleasure of killing that sob. I could care less for what happens to Ozzamar. In this particular case, its all personal. I want payback..and in the process I want to honor my father's wishes, who chose Harrowmount over my scumbag brother. Ah yes, poetic justice, served with a bloody dagger.

[EternalWolfe]

MorGothic wrote...

this isnt my name wrote...

Ok so what does the ending say if I give bhelen the anvil/dont give harromont the anvil, or dont give bhelan the anvil, I want the best outcome because harromont realy messed things up.

It seems to me the best ending possible is Behlen without the Anvil.

The Epilogue Slides can be found here

Correct, this is probably the best dwarf ending overall.

As for which to choose, since I choose not to meta-game, my character's personality made the choice.  My Human Noble choose Harrowmont, seeing he held honor and such, even though it ending badly for the dwarves.  My Dwarf Commoner choose Behlen, even though my dwarf commoner was pretty much as evil as you could get(He found Harrowmont to be stuffy, old-fashioned, and some other things I can't repeat without serious censorship).

One of my neutral characters choose Behlen because he had the brains to see which one would make a better King in the end - he may not have liked Behlen personally, but he saw that he would be better for the dwarven kingdom in all(at least until he got the real facts, but by then it was a bit too late).

So, either meta-game, or RP.  Either way works though, you still get the army you need, and the rest is history.

[Zy-El]

Bhelen - he is the politician that the Dwarves deserve. Yes, Harrowmont is a "good guy" but those ruthless Dwarvan politicians tore him apart. At least with Bhelen, the back-stabbing knives stay in their sheaths for a while. He is a scumbag but he's willing to fight the darkspawn and as the Grey Warden, that's all that matters.



It is NOT the GW's place to interfere more than is required in Dwarven affairs. Let them live in the hole they dig!

[Sarah1281]

I don't think it really matters whether Harrowmont was actually offering the same land to Lord Helmi and Lord Dace. The fact remains that he was buying their votes. Yeah, it's dwarven politics, but there is no honor in that.

Harrowmont may come across as more honorable personally (although given that everyone suspects poison in Endrin's death and Harrowmont was the only one allowed by his side you have to wonder if he was trying to frame Bhelen), but he is still a successful dwarven politician. That mean he CAN'T be nice. Yes, he helps the DN out in their origin story and probably saves their lives but pointing them at Duncan, but that alone isn't enough to make him a good ruler. My first playthrough I was a human noble and knew nothing about any of the scandal involving Trian and the DN, but I took one look at Dust Town and Zerlinda, spoke to the Shaperate about how the casteless ought to be killed at birth, and saw that that was some of the 'traditioal values' Harrowmont was holding up...needless to say, Bhelen quickly earned my support.

We don't know that Harrowmont is any nicer than Bhelen. He likes the DN better and since Endrin didn't want the her to die but felt his hands were tied in regards to the exile, Harrowmont helped her survive.  He had nothing to gain by getting her out of the way. Everyone always talks about how honorable Harrowmont is while Bhelen's supporters talk about how strong he is. Even as pissed as DN's can be at Bhelen, Harrowmont had both law and tradition on his side and he failed to even get the DN a show trial.

Endrin wasn't opposing Bhelen becoming King over his fratricide (or in some cases, encouraging fratricide) as his note to the DN shows.

"Perhaps you will burn this letter unread. For that I would not blame you. But I would not return to the Stone without saying this to you: I have seen what Bhelen is. And when I saw it, I knew I had been a fool. For only a fool would cut out his own heart and burn it for the sake of appearances. I never believed in your guilt. I allowed you to be exiled because I feared an inquiry into Trian’s murder would taint our house with scandal in the eyes of the deshyrs and cost our family the throne. But I have saved nothing by this sacrifice: I sent my only child into an uncertain exile. Know that whatever you do now, you bear all the honor and pride of House Aeducan."

Endrin knew he was at least party to fratricide and that didn't stop him from throwing the DN out. What did? Presumably his oft-mentioned lack of concern for tradition. He was very good to his noble hunter - the DC's sister - he was willing to open up more trade to the surface and better the lives of the casteless. Best of all, he takes the darkspawn threat seriously and intends to retake land. You can find all of this out without metagaming by listening to Harrowmont's criers (who think some of this is a BAD thing as it goes against tradition), the merchants, the guards to the deep roads, people in Dust Town, ect. Endrin was strongly traditional but clinging to tradition is what has had the dwarves dying a slow painful death since the first Blight and the darkspawn remain a constant threat.

Even when you first get to Orzammar and Harrowmont's supporters run away while Bhelen's kill a guy for seemingly disrespecting Bhelen shows Bhelen is the stronger candidate. Yes he upsets the nobles and warrior but that's because they feel they are losing their power to people they refuse to admit exist. Giving the casteless the right to die honorably killing darkspawn is not something they can tolerate. Most of the nobles are also coming out for Harrowmont because the Aeducans have had nine generations of kings and they see a chance to take the throne from them. Yes, Bhelen dissolves the Assembly in the end...because they won't stop trying to kill him. That is kind of understandable.

Even as far as killing Trian and blaming the DN goes: everyone thinks Trian would make a horrible king as he openly looks down on everyone he considers beneath him (read: everyone not his father) and most would rather see the DN take the throne. Trian is far too traditional and and lacks any semblance of people skills. Bhelen is worried that the DN will act against him and if the DN denies ever plotting against her brothers, then she really isn't going to do much better than Harrowmont in the decadent dwarven court. Yes, Bhelen more than likely have selfish motives for wanting the crown, but killing your rivals is hardly new. Even the recently deceaed King Endrin only got the position by arranging for his older brother's murder and he was the most respected King in four generations.

Orzammar's dying and it's plain to see. More of the same won't save it. Bhelen might not save it. But he stands a far better chance than Harrowmont.

[Bardox9]

Harrowmont is too weak willed to be a king in my view. He is a good man, but not a good king. If I play a Dwarven noble then I choose Harrowmont simply because my character is pissed at Bhelen. Otherwise I pick Bhelen to be king. He has a vision and the will to see that vision come to pass. He is a ******, but he is a tyrant. Harrowmont will always bow to the assembly. Not the makings of a true king in my view.

In the end, it doesn't matter. Your options suck. You have a choice between two bowls of s h i t. You choose which one smells the worst.

Modifié par Bardox9, 12 mars 2010 - 04:56 .

[RockSW]

bhelen

[Shadow Raziel]

Harrowmont for no other reason than Bhelen and his henchmen got on my nerves, I rather enjoyed ending his life at the end. who would ever have dreamed of the drow like politics? lol

[Onyx Jaguar]

Harrowmont, that ending ends in chaos and their political system needs to come crashing down (unless you side with Branka)

[Sarah1281]

No, the Harrowmont ending has him accomplishing nothing but further isolation from the surface and dying shortly thereafter. While choosing a new House to rule is complicated, power changes hands all the time (although the Aeducans were in charge for nine generations, that's unusual) and things stay the same. You want the entire social order turned on its head, that's Bhelen.

[Shandyr]

Well my charavter made his choice upon the question who is the better king

As a grey warden he had to choose the candidate that will be better for the grey warden cause: destroying the blight



So my chair ignored all political affairs of both of them and just figuered out that bhelen was the stronger one - the one whod server better fighting the blight

[KentGoldings]

To me, it is six in one and half-a-dozen in the other. i loves the Orzamar quest line becuase it really keeps you guess what is the right choice. All outcomes are morally gray. Make you're choices with the knowledge that you can always re-roll later.