170 réponses à ce sujet

[Tony208]

Les Polar wrote...

I supported both of them (Bhelen and Harrowmont) at the same time and decided at the corronation who would be king...lots of back stabbing and double crossing....I loved it.

I love that part of Bioware games. I've been doing it since Neverwinter Nights. Would always find the best way to screw the most out of both parties.

[Fallstar]

Personally I always go for keeping the anvil, because Golems are very, very powerful, and Paragon Branka-though 'slightly' insane- will give me a nice group of Golems to kill the archdemon. Theres nothing like charging a gigantic, corrupted dragon with four stone giants by your side.

I generally also go for Bhelen, because Harrowmount doesn't seem to have a clue. Honour has no role in a vicious political society (look what happened to Ed Stark in A song of ice and fire), and in the end it is the little scheming bastards such as Bhelen (or Petyr Baelish) who survive to rule.

[Maxmush]

I've found that at the epilogue if you supported Bhelen the Dawrven society grows....Harrowmont, the society crumbles. It only matters if you care about the epilogue, which I do.

[chokladkaka]

Ever tried exposing Bhelen for forging the fake pappers?



Ever stood up to Harrowmont that the cast system isn't right?





Go for that, and watch how Harrowmont rules the dwarven society into the greatest era ever known.

[Zenjamin]

chokladkaka wrote...

Ever tried exposing Bhelen for forging the fake pappers?

Ever stood up to Harrowmont that the cast system isn't right?


Go for that, and watch how Harrowmont rules the dwarven society into the greatest era ever known.

Can you do that?

[ddv.rsa]

No.

[Collider]

Harrowmont = Nothing changes. Stagnation.

Bhelen = Help fix oppressive caste system, open up trade to surface. Prosperity.

[Elhanan]

Collider wrote...

Harrowmont = Nothing changes. Stagnation.
Bhelen = Help fix oppressive caste system, open up trade to surface. Prosperity.

heh! Hey! It's the Royal crier! Epic fail!

[ejoslin]

Zenjamin wrote...

chokladkaka wrote...

Ever tried exposing Bhelen for forging the fake pappers?

Ever stood up to Harrowmont that the cast system isn't right?


Go for that, and watch how Harrowmont rules the dwarven society into the greatest era ever known.

Can you do that?

Only in fanfics.  In the game, Harrowmont always fails.

[Ryzaki]

personally I pick Harrowmont. That said my characters are human supremacists.

[Elhanan]

One I need to play is a DN that returns to aid Bhelen in quests, but chooses Harrowmont. I have yet to help with the forgeries, and have always chosen the Provings instead.

[Zenjamin]

I started doing quests for both, and when I heard that Bhelen killed his brother, I decided to side with Harrowmont and find evidence of Bhelen's deeds after disposing of Jarvia.
At this point, I knew Bhelen forged doccuments to try to use me to discredet others. I read the letter to Harrowmont where the now dead king asked that he never allow Bhelen to rule. And evidence of Bhelen killing his own brother was the last straw.

However, upon entering dust town, I changed my mind. Seeing people who were considered less then human. People who were branded at birth so that everyone would know to treat them like ****. Poeple who had their knees broken without any hope of reprisial.
And furrther, this system created such hate, that people from legit casts were cast down to the castless for the crime of falling in love with someone of lesser birth.

As I went to the tavern and had a drink, I realized that the old king, Bhelen's brother were apart of this system. Apart of the system that wanted to keep the people he loved and possible even a woman he loved down (A town crier mentioned he was planning on marrying a castless I believe)

Harrowmont isnt a terrible person. But he is a puppet of a system. His father, supported him because he would not want to change anything. And he scorned his son who did.

If Bhalen wanted to change things, where people are judged by their merit, he would have to get his hands a little dirty.
And I would lent my bloody hand to his aid.

Modifié par Zenjamin, 08 novembre 2010 - 08:22 .

[Dragonslayer1234]

I doubted at first,but eventually went for Bhelen.Either way I destroy the Anvil because Harrowmont+Anvil=kidnapping humans and elves=bad!

Bhelen+Anvil=eventually Branka refuses=Bhelen attacks her fortress=He fails=BAD!



I go for Bhelen because Its a simple matter of putting the needs of he many for the needs of the few.Harrowmont looks like the good guy but is he?We dont know.He proposes bad things in the epilogue,like further isolation of the surface and keeping the cast sytem because all his other proposals are outvoted in the Assemly.Bhelen however uses every means to get te throne(murdering his brother and framing the other one) .But eventually he modernizes Orzammar,(almost) destroys the caste system.People also criticize him for executing Harrowmont,but isnt tht what Anora/Alistair does with his / her opponent in the Landsmeet?Bhelen disbands the Assembly and executes Harrowmont,but thats the reason why his proposals are NOT outvoted and he does NOT have a rebellion on his hands.

[Dragonslayer1234]

JUST DISCOVERED-DONT TRUST HARROWMONT it was HARROWMONT who poisened king Endrin and blamed it on BHELEN! HE PLANNED TO USURP THE THRONE FROM THE VERY START! DONT TRUST THE USURPER!DONT TRUST THE USURPER!

[mousestalker]

Your skilled use of capital letters has convinced me. It was all a wicked plot. Good to know!

[RamonIAm]

It's all about situation, Harrowmont is a politician, Bhelen is a General (even though both of them are both things, you know what I mean).



What Orzammar needs is a General.

[Estyss Eon]

I think you should try playing the Noble side of the Dwarven storyline. It might affect your descision, it might not.

Just sayin. <.<

[avatoc]

bhelen he is simply more competent

[Last Darkness]

I like how the majority of opinions are based on the Dwarf Noble experince. Play the Dwarf Commoner and do the quests in Orzamaar. Their roles switch and Bhelen is a savior and Harrowmont is a Tyrant.



But in general, there is no moral option. I find this amusing since Harrowmont is just as bad as Bhelen. Matter of fact the "Evilest" outcome you can do is Harrowmont on the Throne with the Anvil intact (And Brother Burkles Chantry built and Dagna joining the Mages).



Your given the choice betwene two evils who are lying to you and manipulating you. Anyone who thinks Harrowmont is the good option is poorly naively mistaken.



Too many people make events in the game personal and go aginst the what it is to be a Grey Warden, a certain detatchment and a willingness to do what ever is nessary to end the blight. (Quote Whatever is nessary). They are not called the White Wardens.



Useing information in game you learn upto that choice and not metagameing(Though im all for metagaming) it is rather clear that Bhelen is the best option for you to accomplish your goal of assembling an army and stoping the blight. Bhelen garantees you support if you side with him, Harrowmont says he will get around to asking the assembly to vote if they should help. The Branka aspect is a whole differant beast to dela with but I feel a Warden would put Bhelen as King and have Branka keep the Anvil intact to create Golems to fight the Darkspawn. (Remember a Blight is when theres a Archdemon and Darkspawn on the surface. To the dwarves underground, pinned in and defeated day afterday the darkspawn are a all present threat and the Golems will significantly help aginst the Darkspawn)



Also if you are a Dwarf Noble and you either were framed by Bhelen or murdered Trian yourself its actualy a intresting story line to side with Bhelen. (People often forget the Dwarf Noble can murder Trian of their own choice and not be framed by Bhelen)

[cihimi]

When I play Dwarf Noble, I do the Bhelen line, hook him, then give the crown to Harrowmont.

[White_Buffalo94]

Either let the Dwarves prosper for at least a whole generation (Bhelens reign)

OR

Let the dwarves continue to spirla in civil war with Harrowmont

[Gnoster]

I usually choose Bhelen. I do not see him as evil, but rather as someone who is very good at politics and his ideals for the dwarven sociaty are all some I can support. His methods is dealing with Harrowmont; both in becoming king and executing Harrowmont afterwards is not great but understandable from a certain viewpoint.

In many ways Bhelen reminds me of the roman emperor Gaius Julius Caesar Augustus (often called Octavius), who was one of the most beloved roman emperors to ever exist, in peace time he ruled with great compassion and make amazing progress for the roman people, but in times of war he was ruthless and often assasinated his potential enemies before they could become a threat as a means of ending the conflict quickly and securing peace afterwards. Now one can oppose that kind of thinking, but with regards to the politics, social time, and generel intrigue I can understand where Bhelen is coming from.

[Last Darkness]

Bhelen would make a Great Warden.

[Iosev]

Unfortunately, both Harrowmont and Bhelen each have flaws that prevent them from being ideal leaders for the dwarves. While Harrowmont seems to be a just and benevolent individual, he's too traditional and appeasing to the upper castes. Bhelen, on the other hand, is more of a progressive, but unfortunately he uses dirty means to achieve his goals.

Neither Harrowmont or Bhelen really have good endings. Harrowmont ends up appeasing to the nobles and dies without really changing anything, while Bhelen changes a few things (e.g., letting the casteless join the military and regaining some lost thaigs), but ends up dissolving the assembly and becoming more or less a dictator.

The real problem is the caste system. The upper castes have far too much power and will do whatever they can to keep it, while the disparity between the upper and lower castes continues to grow. I think that the dwarves are going to continue experiencing instability until they abolish the caste system. I think civil dispute/war is inevitable, regardless of who you choose (I'm talking beyond what is mentioned in the Epilogue, of course). If you pick Harrowmont, tensions between castes will continue to increase until he dies, with the Assembly trying to decide the next leader. With Bhelen, he dissolves the assembly which will most likely draw the wrath from all of the upper castes who once held power there.

So back to Bhelen and Harrowmont; which of the two do I choose? If it were completely up to me, I wouldn't choose either candidate, and let the dwarves learn for themselves that their caste system is failing. Unfortunately, you are forced to pick sides in order to defend against the Blight. As a Grey Warden, your duty should be protecting everyone from the darkspawn, not meddling too deeply in politics. So with that in mind, I choose Harrowmont, not because he's the best candidate, but because my Grey Warden just wants the dwarves stable enough to prepare for the Blight, and Harrowmont's tendency towards the status quo means that I'm not responsible for any immediate changes in dwarven society (as a human Grey Warden, I really have no business reforming dwarven society). 

Some may wonder why I don't choose Bhelen since I don't like the caste system and my answer is that tyrant leaders shouldn't be elected just for the sake of change.  Think of it like this, would you want to be directly responsible for installing a dictator in Orzammar?  I certainly wouldn't.  Bhelen changes a few things, but he still doesn't abolish the caste system completely, and even worse, he dissolves the Assembly, erasing any chance for civil dialogue (not everyone in the Assembly is traditional, such as Lord Helmi, who tells the warden that he's sick of the caste system). At least with Harrowmont the assembly is still around, and perhaps a better leader may emerge that is both just AND progressive.

Modifié par arcelonious, 18 février 2011 - 10:40 .

[avatoc]

I feel like I should elaborate on my previous comment:



I think Bhelen is the more competent one due to the situation that his people are in.

The dwarven people are currently diminishing in numbers and dying out, not just culturly but completely.

Harrowmont only enforces this by doing nothing besides sealing them of from any form of millitary support, trade and by lessening the millitary power in Orzammar.

Bhelen does on the other hand endorse diplomacy and while not flatout abolish the caste system (that would be stupid since it wouldn't give the society it self a chance to adapt and instead send it into chaos) he does ease it and makes the life of a casteless hell of a lot better.

True unlike Harrowmont Bhelen dose not endorse democracy and under most circumstances I would be against such an attitude but in this case I agree with it. Why? Because there is a time for words and a time for action and this is a time when words are the equivalent of cancer as it ends up having the people who wants to do good and the people who wants to fill their own pockets locked in an unbreakable power struggle while their civilaization is collapsing around them.



Also in response to arcelonious:

Your duty may not lie with the good of Orzammar but it is your duty to hunt the darkspawn wherever they may go and in choosing Harrowmont you subsequently alowe the darkspawn a chance to fall back, regroup and to grow stronger. By choosing Bhelen you deny them this and make a large preemptive strike against them.