170 réponses à ce sujet

[Iosev]

avatoc wrote...

Also in response to arcelonious:
Your duty may not lie with the good of Orzammar but it is your duty to hunt the darkspawn wherever they may go and in choosing Harrowmont you subsequently alowe the darkspawn a chance to fall back, regroup and to grow stronger. By choosing Bhelen you deny them this and make a large preemptive strike against them.

If you side with Bhelen, all the dwarves really manage to do is reclaim a few lost Thaigs; siding with Bhelen doesn't really seem to affect the amount of darkspawn significantly(Spoiler: in Awakening you learn that the darkspawn are still very much active and a threat, regardless of who you side with).

Like I said, protecting Orzammar from the immediate threat of the darkspawn from the Blight is the duty of a Grey Warden; electing a leader who might end up destroying every good and bad tradition that the dwarves have created is really not something that my Grey Warden would want to be responsible for.   Change is necessary for the dwarves, I just don't believe that Bhelen is the right leader for change (he may want change, but it's hard to say
how much of it is for the benefit for the dwarves, and how much is it for his own benefit).

In the end, I still believe that it is up to the dwarves to reform their nation themselves.  No matter who you side with, the dwarves are far from united after Origins.  I think civil unrest and disputes will likely continue, either when they are selecting Harrowmont's replacement (if you choose him), or when Bhelen dissolves the assembly (if you choose Bhelen).  At least with Harrowmont, the dwarves will still have a little more freedom amongst themselves to voice their opinions (such as Lord Helmi, who is progressive like Bhelen, except without Bhelen's lust for power), whereas with Bhelen ruling, I doubt there would be as much freedom.

People often see Harrowmont keeping the dwarves isolated as a bad thing, but honestly, until they can become united as an entire nation, it is probably better for them to keep to themselves.

Modifié par arcelonious, 20 février 2011 - 11:28 .

[KAAurious]

I went with Bhelen actually, for one it made the whole, "Hey bro, you aren't pissed or anything?" moment that much more entertaining. Secondly, he seems to be aimed at a more... progressive dwarven society. Also? Don't you remember the Orzammar crier?



He's a "bad, bad man"! That's definitely worth endorsing.

[MrSweatyDrummer]

Zenjamin wrote...

I started doing quests for both, and when I heard that Bhelen killed his brother, I decided to side with Harrowmont and find evidence of Bhelen's deeds after disposing of Jarvia.
At this point, I knew Bhelen forged doccuments to try to use me to discredet others. I read the letter to Harrowmont where the now dead king asked that he never allow Bhelen to rule. And evidence of Bhelen killing his own brother was the last straw.

However, upon entering dust town, I changed my mind. Seeing people who were considered less then human. People who were branded at birth so that everyone would know to treat them like ****. Poeple who had their knees broken without any hope of reprisial.
And furrther, this system created such hate, that people from legit casts were cast down to the castless for the crime of falling in love with someone of lesser birth.

As I went to the tavern and had a drink, I realized that the old king, Bhelen's brother were apart of this system. Apart of the system that wanted to keep the people he loved and possible even a woman he loved down (A town crier mentioned he was planning on marrying a castless I believe)

Harrowmont isnt a terrible person. But he is a puppet of a system. His father, supported him because he would not want to change anything. And he scorned his son who did.

If Bhalen wanted to change things, where people are judged by their merit, he would have to get his hands a little dirty.
And I would lent my bloody hand to his aid.

This man; Zenjamin speaks the fackn truth!

[Sir Pounce-a-lot]

This thread is still going. The last reply was only 18 days ago, so I won't feel too bad bring it back to the first page.

Here's a question: Without metagaming, is there any reason to believe that Bhelen would really be some progressive reformer?

Also, how does having a Casteless sex toy equate with being sympathetic to Casteless people? If some rich politician went into a trailer park and hooked up with some hot chick, and brought her back to his mansion to keep her as a sex toy, would he be considered progressive and sympathetic to lower income people?

[Rvlion]

During my first playthrough I would have sworn Bhelen be the bad guy. During my first Dwarf Noble playthough Bhelen was the bad guy.
From that time on ALL my playthroughs have me picking Bhelen... Why? Bhelen makes the dwarven nation strong and he did what I would have done.
Take the Castless and give them a chance to redeem themselves in the army fighting against the Darkspawn. The previous kings were Arogent (with capital A) fools to leave such a willing workforce fending for themselves.

Modifié par Rvlion, 28 juin 2011 - 08:01 .

[gandanlin]

Based purely on the reward given once all the dust settles, I prefer Bhelen's gift over Harrowmont's. To my way of thinking, the sword  maul is more useful and valuable than the staff.

Other than that, the ethical question of who to support is pretty much a coin-toss. Bhelen is violently ruthless, but appears to be open to societal change; Harrowmont is more of a diplomat, but appears entrenched in oppressive tradition. Both seem like tyrants in their own way.

Maybe it would have been interesting to have had the option to give the crown to Shayle/Shale? But maybe that would need to be developed into another game: The Revenge of the Golems.

Modifié par gandanlin, 29 juin 2011 - 09:25 .

[Arthur Cousland]

Harrowmont's staff was used as a backscratcher. You give him the crown and he give you a backscratcher. It serves him right for having Orzammar basically burn to the ground with him in charge. Harrowmont would have also let the darkspawn take over Orzammar before he let the casteless join the military.

Bhelen being sympathetic to the casteless people is shown by letting them fight for Orzammar, which leads to lost thaigs being retaken and making progress against the darkspawn in the deep roads.

Trade with the surface also improves under Bhelen.

I would have liked the option for a dwarf noble warden to succeed Harrowmont. The throne would have been theirs if they weren't framed and exiled by Bhelen.

[PrinceLionheart]

Arthur Cousland wrote...

Harrowmont's staff was used as a backscratcher. You give him the crown and he give you a backscratcher. It serves him right for having Orzammar basically burn to the ground with him in charge. Harrowmont would have also let the darkspawn take over Orzammar before he let the casteless join the military.

Bhelen being sympathetic to the casteless people is shown by letting them fight for Orzammar, which leads to lost thaigs being retaken and making progress against the darkspawn in the deep roads.

Trade with the surface also improves under Bhelen.

I would have liked the option for a dwarf noble warden to succeed Harrowmont. The throne would have been theirs if they weren't framed and exiled by Bhelen.

Here's my main problem with supporting Bhelen though. Obviously, he's the better choice, but most time the reasons people choose him is for metagaming reasons though. I guess that's my main issue with the factor. Maybe I missed some dialogue, but Bhelen never really comes off with any redeeming qualities until the epilogue (or if you play a Casteless Dwarf.)

[BlueMagitek]

While he doesn't seem to have many redeeming features, if you have Zev in your party he calls Harrowmont out on being a coward for the first task. If you're a Cousland you might just support his hereditary right. I'm not sure about the other options though; maybe a Tabris will side with him because he's marrying a Casteless?

[Sir Pounce-a-lot]

BlueMagitek wrote...

While he doesn't seem to have many redeeming features, if you have Zev in your party he calls Harrowmont out on being a coward for the first task. If you're a Cousland you might just support his hereditary right. I'm not sure about the other options though; maybe a Tabris will side with him because he's marrying a Casteless?

Bhelen does the same thing. He's hiding just as much as Harrowmont is. Plus, Bhelen isn't marrying a casteless woman - he's keeping her as a concubine, or a sex toy. Without metagaming, there is no reason to believe that Bhelen would be some great reformer. He and Vartag give off elitist vibes, while Harrowmont talks about responding to the pleas of the commonfolk when talking to you about the Carta. Harrowmont's second in command even hangs out as Tapsters. One of the noblewoman even makes a snide remark about Harrowmont's wife, since she has been known to "wear the same dress two days in a row".

[PrinceLionheart]

Sir Pounce-a-lot wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

While he doesn't seem to have many redeeming features, if you have Zev in your party he calls Harrowmont out on being a coward for the first task. If you're a Cousland you might just support his hereditary right. I'm not sure about the other options though; maybe a Tabris will side with him because he's marrying a Casteless?

Bhelen does the same thing. He's hiding just as much as Harrowmont is. Plus, Bhelen isn't marrying a casteless woman - he's keeping her as a concubine, or a sex toy. Without metagaming, there is no reason to believe that Bhelen would be some great reformer. He and Vartag give off elitist vibes, while Harrowmont talks about responding to the pleas of the commonfolk when talking to you about the Carta. Harrowmont's second in command even hangs out as Tapsters. One of the noblewoman even makes a snide remark about Harrowmont's wife, since she has been known to "wear the same dress two days in a row".

I agree with most of what you said, but one thing about the "concubine" status is, she is a lot better off being a "royal" concubine, especially since she gives birth to a boy, meaning she's no longer a casteless.

But yeah, everthing else was right on the nose. Bhelen never gives an impression of being a "great reformer" If anything, it's Harrowmont who acts the honorable throughout the entire ordeal, even peacefully pledging Alleigance to Bhelen if he is chosen. So really, unless your a stickler for Bloodlines (or choose to metagame) I just don't see much of a reason to support Bhelen.

[BlueMagitek]

I could have sworn one of the Orzammar Criers mentioned Bhelen's impending marriage to a casteless. I know their information isn't always accurate, though. And yes, Bhelen is hiding as much (if not more) than Harrowmont, I was just pointing out that Zevran had a point.

At least Bhelen is housing that noble that he may have accidently poisoned.

Modifié par BlueMagitek, 29 juin 2011 - 03:23 .

[Rvlion]

While Bhelen seems more elitist from a distance, being the son of the dead king. While talking to Legnar the merchant close to Tapster you are told very clearly why he supports Bhelen. Between the lines you read that he has a strong willingness to change things instead of the massive granite statue that is Harrowmont. We all know that change is growth and a cultural standstill means decadence. Same with the Greek, Egyption and later on the Roman empire, large growth until it fell apart in smaller warring nations eventually leading to a 1000 years of Medival times... Knights in shining armor is cool, but we could have been flying to Mars and back had human kind not wasted 1000 years of cultural and scientific advancement.

However back on topic'ish...
When playing Dwarven Commoner the Castless girl who is seeing Bhelen is your sister so you see a different side from Bhelen, about how he takes care of both your sister and mother. This side I am afraid I cannot seem to completely roleplay out of my system no matter the character Human, Elf, Dwarf... I vote for Bhelen.
Even as Dwarf Noble I in someway respect the way he manipulated everyone to get what he wanted.
Not to mention that I would have wanted to make some major changes to the Dwarves myself...
The castless are perfect army folks even if just trained and armed cannon fodder... In this I aprove with Bhelen 100%.

[Arthur Cousland]

It is hard to pretend that I don't know already that Orzammar will burn to the ground if Harrowmont is king. Sure, he appears to be the "nice guy", but Bhelen proves to be the more effective king in the long run: he'll do whatever it takes to move Orzammar forward, even if that makes him enemies and is willing to break from tradition. Harrowmont might be a good general and trusted advisor to the king, but he doesn't make a good king, himself.

If you can ignore the epilogue slides at the end, then don't worry about the consequences.

[FullmetalHeart20]

Change will come with time, and I will never put a murderer on the throne. I stand with Harrowmount for now.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

FullmetalHeart20 wrote...

Change will come with time, and I will never put a murderer on the throne. I stand with Harrowmount for now.

Change will come with time if extinction doesn't. You assume there's something in the flow of time that cures all ills. There isn't. Especially considering that Harrowmont is an active step in the wrong direction; if memory serves, he cuts surface trade and strengthens caste restrictions. That's not helpful. It is the opposite of that.

Edit: And I just realized how massively you necro'd this thread. That, plus the lack of actual substance in your post, (and the spelling mistake I wouldn't have pointed out if it weren't for the other stuff) and I'm left wondering if I didn't just get trolled.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 19 janvier 2013 - 11:08 .

[BlueMagitek]

Go Harrowmont + Saved Anvil. Rebellions are put down and this sets the stage for the remaining Aeducan to rise to power without the blood of an entire house on his hands.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

The cost of which is that Branka manages to start a war between Orzammar and the surface, plus the same problems that everyone is already complaining about with regards to Harrowmont.

[BlueMagitek]

Which always annoyed me. Branka is a smart lass, she should have turned the darkspawn into golems. Turn your enemy into your servant.

Besides, what are a few problems in return for a return of dwarvern might?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Those problems don't occur if you put Bhelen on the throne and ditch the Anvil. Sure, the golems don't exist, but Bhelen doesn't need them to gain ground against the spawn.

As for turning the spawn into golems, that may or may not be possible. It should have been tried, of course, but there's no knowing what the taint would do to the process.

[BlueMagitek]

Yes, but then you have a homicidal maniac on the throne. He wasn't even that good at playing the Dwarvern game, considering he's willing to hand all of his cards away to a stranger who can easily screw him over. High risk, high reward is one thing, but what he did was another.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

He gambled that Harrowmont wouldn't willingly work with someone who had screwed him over. It's a common tactic in gangs, too, get someone to do something the law won't abide in order to be sure they're not the law. (It's not 100% in either case, since the cops are allowed to commit any crime short of murder in the course of these tests as long as they report it, and you can make a persuade check to get whoever you screwed over to trust you anyway. Hell, one time I did the extra quest to persuade Harrowmont I was a double agent, even though I had every intention of deciding for Bhelen. For an extra bonus, I was a DN.)

Also, while I agree trusting everything to this one person is kind of foolish, the only other option we're given is Harrowmont, who does the same thing and is open to the same "what-a-moron" argument. So if you're weighing pros-and-cons, that cancels.

As for the homicidal argument, that's one of the things I'm weighing here. On Harrowmont's side, it's the fact that he's not a homicidal maniac. On Bhelen's it's the fact that he gives the brands new freedoms, increases merchant traffic to and from Orzammar, and takes the fight to the darkspawn.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 20 janvier 2013 - 04:06 .

[BlueMagitek]

Yes, but Harrowmont's quests aren't dirty. Fight in a proving? A matter of honor, really. Show forged documents to various other nobles? You're lucky that the Warden wasn't killed because not a one of them had the idea to get it looked at by the Shaperate.

One hand is giving me something to fix that he probably would have lost anyway (all of his Champions were bribed or blackmailed off) while the other is giving me something dirty that I can screw him over with.

Take the fight to the darkspawn? What a horrible idea. It is a waste of manpower that the dwarves can't afford; the darkspawn may as well be unlimited when it comes to numbers. Increased merchant traffic means you have to deal with more problems from the surface, including more options for heretics like that Chantry Dwarf and potentially more dwarves leaving for the surfae, taking their skill with lyrium with them. It isn't wise to trust in the strength of the surface, except to feed as fuels for our golems.

The Brands are free to join the Legion. That is all there is.

[MisterJB]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Yes, but Harrowmont's quests aren't dirty. Fight in a proving? A matter of honor, really. Show forged documents to various other nobles? You're lucky that the Warden wasn't killed because not a one of them had the idea to get it looked at by the Shaperate.

One hand is giving me something to fix that he probably would have lost anyway (all of his Champions were bribed or blackmailed off) while the other is giving me something dirty that I can screw him over with.

Take the fight to the darkspawn? What a horrible idea. It is a waste of manpower that the dwarves can't afford; the darkspawn may as well be unlimited when it comes to numbers. Increased merchant traffic means you have to deal with more problems from the surface, including more options for heretics like that Chantry Dwarf and potentially more dwarves leaving for the surfae, taking their skill with lyrium with them. It isn't wise to trust in the strength of the surface, except to feed as fuels for our golems.

The Brands are free to join the Legion. That is all there is.

What in the Fade? Are you being sarcastic?

[Chashan]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Yes, but Harrowmont's quests aren't dirty. Fight in a proving? A matter of honor, really. Show forged documents to various other nobles? You're lucky that the Warden wasn't killed because not a one of them had the idea to get it looked at by the Shaperate.

One hand is giving me something to fix that he probably would have lost anyway (all of his Champions were bribed or blackmailed off) while the other is giving me something dirty that I can screw him over with.

Take the fight to the darkspawn? What a horrible idea. It is a waste of manpower that the dwarves can't afford; the darkspawn may as well be unlimited when it comes to numbers. Increased merchant traffic means you have to deal with more problems from the surface, including more options for heretics like that Chantry Dwarf and potentially more dwarves leaving for the surfae, taking their skill with lyrium with them. It isn't wise to trust in the strength of the surface, except to feed as fuels for our golems.

The Brands are free to join the Legion. That is all there is.

Sound points, which also weigh in for me as to why I prefer Harrowmont (aside from the fella sharing the same VA as Zaeed from ME...did not realise that up until recently).

To add a further point: passing up on the golems is to squander a valuable asset in the fight against the 'spawn. It is unfortunate that even with 'monty in charge the occasional raid for "golem material" takes place, I elect to see that as a lesser evil, however. For with Belen having access to golem heavy armour, all-out war is what we are looking at, if we merely consider the epilogue.

That 'monty limits the golems' usage to repressive action against the casteless - who come across as quite shady overall - is unfortunate, yes, but ultimately less individuals have to suffer looking at the bigger picture.