170 réponses à ce sujet

[BlueMagitek]

MisterJB wrote...
What in the Fade? Are you being sarcastic?

About which point?  We have been to the Deep Roads, we know there is nothing good down there.  From chopped up Pride Demons to an infinite horde of tainted monsters.  Some breathing room is nice, and the path to the Anvil should be secured of course, but the dwarves need to repopulate; thankfully the golems will take some of the burden off of the Warrior Caste.

About the casteless, that is the traditional role they fulfil, is it not? 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Yes, but Harrowmont's quests aren't dirty. Fight in a proving? A matter of honor, really. Show forged documents to various other nobles? You're lucky that the Warden wasn't killed because not a one of them had the idea to get it looked at by the Shaperate.

Yeah, Harrowmont's first quest is a matter of honor. It also doubles as foreshadowing Harrowmont's ultimate helplessness, as Zevran is nice enough to point out.

Yeah, it's lucky the Warden wasn't killed during Bhelen's first quest. In fact, now that I think about it that's probably part of the reason the Warden's doing it as opposed to one of Bhelen's own men. But this is part in parcel with the advantage where Harrowmont isn't evil, which I think cancels before Bhelen's benefits to Orzammar.

One hand is giving me something to fix that he probably would have lost anyway (all of his Champions were bribed or blackmailed off) while the other is giving me something dirty that I can screw him over with.

Again, yes, he'd lose without you. It's a foreshadowing of his political future, whether or not you give him the crown.

Edit: As for Bhelen's quest, he's not giving you any proof you got it directly from him. You can claim anything you want, but a large part of the reason you're wanted is because you're not provably linked to him. (I'd have added this earlier, but I missed the "could screw Bhelen over" argument.)

Take the fight to the darkspawn? What a horrible idea. It is a waste of manpower that the dwarves can't afford; the darkspawn may as well be unlimited when it comes to numbers.

Before posting an argument, ask yourself "How do I know this?" For all we know, the darkspawn may be pretty well weakened after the Battle of Denerim.

Increased merchant traffic means you have to deal with more problems from the surface, including more options for heretics like that Chantry Dwarf and potentially more dwarves leaving for the surfae, taking their skill with lyrium with them.

It also means more money, and presumably means the surface royals think better of you. Besides, there's enough reasons not to leave for the surface anyway, and if things you can otherwise only get on the surface are more available, that's one reason to leave gone.

It isn't wise to trust in the strength of the surface, except to feed as fuels for our golems.

Now here you're just being obvious. Seriously, I don't know how serious you are about the rest of it, but this is probably why people think you're being sarcastic.

The Brands are free to join the Legion. That is all there is.

And you don't think there'll be more soldiers available if they're free to join an army without it being tantamount to suicide? It's already dangerous, but joining the Legion doesn't risk death, it is death.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 20 janvier 2013 - 09:37 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

BlueMagitek wrote...

About the casteless, that is the traditional role they fulfil, is it not? 

Among others. But why does it being tradition make it right or smart?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Chashan wrote...

Sound points, which also weigh in for me as to why I prefer Harrowmont (aside from the fella sharing the same VA as Zaeed from ME...did not realise that up until recently).

The voice actor is irrelevant (just in case that wasn't a joke), and the rest of it is covered in my other reply.

To add a further point: passing up on the golems is to squander a valuable asset in the fight against the 'spawn. It is unfortunate that even with 'monty in charge the occasional raid for "golem material" takes place, I elect to see that as a lesser evil, however. For with Belen having access to golem heavy armour, all-out war is what we are looking at, if we merely consider the epilogue.

Iirc, the raids culminate in an all-out war, until the entrance to Orzammar ends up destroyed. Bhelen might or might not have done the same anyway, except that he and Branka go to war. This is why, if you're picking for metagame reasons instead of roleplay reasons, I never advocate saving the Anvil. There might be something Bioware does in the future to make it worth empowering that nut Branka, but for now I just don't see it. According to the closest thing we have to binding canon at the moment, she's a bad idea regardless of your preferred king.

That 'monty limits the golems' usage to repressive action against the casteless - who come across as quite shady overall - is unfortunate, yes, but ultimately less individuals have to suffer looking at the bigger picture.

If I remember correctly, it was the nobles who were still causing trouble after Bhelen's death who got a visit from the Paragon Division, and for some odd reason he doesn't die after a short reign in this epilogue. (Reading between the lines, I think that means Bhelen's mourners poison him if they aren't killed.) As for your assertion that fewer individuals suffer looking at the bigger picture, I don't see it. Harrowmont strengthens caste restrictions, bans casteless from the commons, brutally attacks the slums, cuts surface trade, and doesn't move the front back from Orzammar. This, combined with Bhelen increasing the size of the army (which presumably means a larger force against darkspawn, since he likely didn't have to spend his entire reign cracking down on dissent), and I just don't see a metagame argument for Harrowmont.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 20 janvier 2013 - 11:44 .

[BlueMagitek]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Yeah, Harrowmont's first quest is a matter of honor. It also doubles as foreshadowing Harrowmont's ultimate helplessness, as Zevran is nice enough to point out.

Yeah, it's lucky the Warden wasn't killed during Bhelen's first quest. In fact, now that I think about it that's probably part of the reason the Warden's doing it as opposed to one of Bhelen's own men. But this is part in parcel with the advantage where Harrowmont isn't evil, which I think cancels before Bhelen's benefits to Orzammar.

Again, yes, he'd lose without you. It's a foreshadowing of his political future, whether or not you give him the crown.

Edit: As for Bhelen's quest, he's not giving you any proof you got it directly from him. You can claim anything you want, but a large part of the reason you're wanted is because you're not provably linked to him. (I'd have added this earlier, but I missed the "could screw Bhelen over" argument.)

Before posting an argument, ask yourself "How do I know this?" For all we know, the darkspawn may be pretty well weakened after the Battle of Denerim.

It also means more money, and presumably means the surface royals think better of you. Besides, there's enough reasons not to leave for the surface anyway, and if things you can otherwise only get on the surface are more available, that's one reason to leave gone.

Now here you're just being obvious. Seriously, I don't know how serious you are about the rest of it, but this is probably why people think you're being sarcastic.

And you don't think there'll be more soldiers available if they're free to join an army without it being tantamount to suicide? It's already dangerous, but joining the Legion doesn't risk death, it is death.

This is true, Harrowmont is not nearly as adept at playing the game as Bhelen is, which is rather odd for someone who has been a part of politics for many years and has kept his position in good standing (even being in line for King). 

That is what I was talking about, yes.  But you should remember that now that the epilogue is reduced to hearsay, and we know from DA2 that Bhelen is slaughtering off the entire House Harrowmont for no discernable reason other than his tyranny, we clearly see that Harrowmont is the lesser of two evils and Bhelen is simply playing both sides, pretending to allow the casteless positions of influence when all he is really doing is using them as drones to bolster the numbers of defense while utilizing his surface contacts to destroy the traditional influence held by the other dwarvern nobility.  For his own benefit, not for Orzammar's.  The Dwarvern People do not win.  Bhelen wins.

No, but you do get it from, what was his name, Vhartag?  A Bhelen supporter.  It casts more muck publically on Bhelen, who is quite openly using him as his toady. 

This is, I believe, a fair assumption based on the amount of darkspawn we see in the Deep Roads, knowing that a great amount retreated after the battle of denerim, and that there are a large amount of broodmothers who seem to be able to replenish the troops very quickly, so to speak.  It's also possible for the dwarvern military and the legion of the dead to take great losses at Denerim. :/

Since when do surface royals matter?  They have lost their connection to the Stone and are little more than casteless without a brand.

Well they shouldn't have chosen to be casteless then, should they?

[Chashan]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Chashan wrote...

Sound points, which also weigh in for me as to why I prefer Harrowmont (aside from the fella sharing the same VA as Zaeed from ME...did not realise that up until recently).

The voice actor is irrelevant (just in case that wasn't a joke), and the rest of it is covered in my other reply.

It may just be fluff, but ultimately does influence my decision even more, along with the rest. Granted, given their personalities, he may be a better match for Bhelen.

Iirc, the raids culminate in an all-out war, until the entrance to Orzammar ends up destroyed. Bhelen might or might not have done the same anyway, except that he and Branka go to war. This is why, if you're picking for metagame reasons instead of roleplay reasons, I never advocate saving the Anvil. There might be something Bioware does in the future to make it worth empowering that nut Branka, but for now I just don't see it. According to the closest thing we have to binding canon at the moment, she's a bad idea regardless of your preferred king.

Far as I gather, "short war" is the word, there, and the gates are shut when besieged, not destroyed. And insane she may be, that does not diminish the viability of golems as a weapon, however.
And, rp-wise, Harrowmont wins hands-down too, far as I am concerned. Grand entry for one of Bhelen's supporters to do murder right in the middle of the street, truly...makes a really good first impression.

If I remember correctly, it was the nobles who were still causing trouble after Bhelen's death who got a visit from the Paragon Division, and for some odd reason he doesn't die after a short reign in this epilogue. (Reading between the lines, I think that means Bhelen's mourners poison him if they aren't killed.) As for your assertion that fewer individuals suffer looking at the bigger picture, I don't see it. Harrowmont strengthens caste restrictions, bans casteless from the commons, brutally attacks the slums, cuts surface trade, and doesn't move the front back from Orzammar. This, combined with Bhelen increasing the size of the army (which presumably means a larger force against darkspawn, since he likely didn't have to spend his entire reign cracking down on dissent), and I just don't see a metagame argument for Harrowmont.

Looking at how the slums are pretty much a death-trap for outsiders walking in, I can see why a crack-down may be in order there. And, as pointed out by 'tek, good ol' Bhelen appears embroiled in his fair share of repressive action as well.

Modifié par Chashan, 21 janvier 2013 - 12:48 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

[quote]Chashan wrote...

[quote]Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

[quote]Chashan wrote...

Sound points, which also weigh in for me as to why I prefer Harrowmont (aside from the fella sharing the same VA as Zaeed from ME...did not realise that up until recently). [/quote]

The voice actor is irrelevant (just in case that wasn't a joke), and the rest of it is covered in my other reply.[/quote]

It may just be fluff, but ultimately does influence my decision even more, along with the rest. Granted, given their personalities, he may be a better match for Bhelen. [/quote]

Noted.

[quote]
[quote]

Iirc, the raids culminate in an all-out war, until the entrance to Orzammar ends up destroyed. Bhelen might or might not have done the same anyway, except that he and Branka go to war. This is why, if you're picking for metagame reasons instead of roleplay reasons, I never advocate saving the Anvil. There might be something Bioware does in the future to make it worth empowering that nut Branka, but for now I just don't see it. According to the closest thing we have to binding canon at the moment, she's a bad idea regardless of your preferred king.[/quote]

Far as I gather, "short war" is the word, there, and the gates are shut when besieged, not destroyed. And insane she may be, that does not diminish the viability of golems as a weapon, however.[/quote]

Okay, inacurracies in my recall are noted.

As for the rest of it, Branka's the one in control of the golems, and neither king can truly control her. That makes her quite relevant to the viability of golems. Harrowmont has more success working with her, because the only limit he places is that dwarves are not to be used past a certain point. And even that comes at a price, for both Orzammar and the outside world. (At least Bhelen's complete failure to control her is more an underground problem than a problem that effects both sides of the ground, though if he'd done a better job Gaider knows what might have happened.) It's not a question of "are golems useful?" It's a question of "are they useful enough to be worth Branka?" (I'll even admit I'm less sure of this answer than the answer to the Bhelen vs. Harrowmont debate.)

[quote]
And, rp-wise, Harrowmont wins hands-down too, far as I am concerned. Grand entry for one of Bhelen's supporters to do murder right in the middle of the street, truly...makes a really good first impression.
[/quote]

It's their flaws in a nutshell, isn't it? Bhelen's an amoral ganglord, and Harrowmont cannot control the other nobles. Though I'll note that working with Harrowmont's a more comfortable rp choice, unless I'm working with an evil character.

[quote]
[quote]
If I remember correctly, it was the nobles who were still causing trouble after Bhelen's death who got a visit from the Paragon Division, and for some odd reason he doesn't die after a short reign in this epilogue. (Reading between the lines, I think that means Bhelen's mourners poison him if they aren't killed.) As for your assertion that fewer individuals suffer looking at the bigger picture, I don't see it. Harrowmont strengthens caste restrictions, bans casteless from the commons, brutally attacks the slums, cuts surface trade, and doesn't move the front back from Orzammar. This, combined with Bhelen increasing the size of the army (which presumably means a larger force against darkspawn, since he likely didn't have to spend his entire reign cracking down on dissent), and I just don't see a metagame argument for Harrowmont.[/quote]

Looking at how the slums are pretty much a death-trap for outsiders walking in, I can see why a crack-down may be in order there. And, as pointed out by 'tek, good ol' Bhelen appears embroiled in his fair share of repressive action as well.
[/quote]
[/quote]
Oh, he does. And the carta stays the hell out of Orzammar afterwards, regardless of your choices. But Bhelen's next move is to come up with something else for them to do, contributing to the solutions to two different problems. Harrowmont doesn't care, as long as they do their thing away from anyone who matters. That only helps the casteless get angry with him, and while that's not a serious problem, Bhelen proves its an avoidable one.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 21 janvier 2013 - 01:20 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

BlueMagitek wrote...

This is true, Harrowmont is not nearly as adept at playing the game as Bhelen is, which is rather odd for someone who has been a part of politics for many years and has kept his position in good standing (even being in line for King).

It's a combination of Bhelen's lack of regard for any law but his own, and any tradition except the "Aeducan throne" thing (just tell me you're not limiting yourself if you let your enemies and naysayers pick at your decisions because the law says so) and the fact that Harrowmont really does not have it in him to push like Bhelen does.

That is what I was talking about, yes.  But you should remember that now that the epilogue is reduced to hearsay, and we know from DA2 that Bhelen is slaughtering off the entire House Harrowmont for no discernable reason other than his tyranny, we clearly see that Harrowmont is the lesser of two evils and Bhelen is simply playing both sides, pretending to allow the casteless positions of influence when all he is really doing is using them as drones to bolster the numbers of defense while utilizing his surface contacts to destroy the traditional influence held by the other dwarvern nobility.  For his own benefit, not for Orzammar's.  The Dwarvern People do not win.  Bhelen wins.

At the moment, the epilogues are what we have. And Gaider never said he was throwing out any part of the epilogues he hasn't already. Just because it's hearsay doesn't make it false. It's just that he might or might not decide it's true.

Nor does killing Harrowmont's entire house necessarily invalidate them. The epilogues state that Bhelen rules in a way that can be construed as tyrannical. Not to mention that we've already seen how he handles dissent in both the epilogue and Origins gameplay. It never mentioned this, but there you go.

(For that matter, we don't "clearly see" anything with regards to Harrowmont's rule in DA2, if I remember correctly.)

No, but you do get it from, what was his name, Vhartag?  A Bhelen supporter.  It casts more muck publically on Bhelen, who is quite openly using him as his toady.

Yes, he is, and Vartag is very loyal to Bhelen. It's a pity Vartag would stoop to this for Bhelen's sake, but what can you do? Of course, Bhelen never saw it coming, and will let Piotin beat on you if you say otherwise. (Publically, too. Bhelen has every right to call an Honor Proving over this.)

Edit: Jokes aside, the Warden has nothing but their own words to back this up. In this way, it actually makes a pretty good test to determine how serious the Warden is as a supporter.

This is, I believe, a fair assumption based on the amount of darkspawn we see in the Deep Roads, knowing that a great amount retreated after the battle of denerim, and that there are a large amount of broodmothers who seem to be able to replenish the troops very quickly, so to speak.  It's also possible for the dwarvern military and the legion of the dead to take great losses at Denerim. :/

We don't see how many the dwarves and the Legion lose at Denerim, or precisely how many spawn escape. We do hear Oghren's guess that they're outnumbered 3-1, but that's about it.

For that matter, I don't think we know how many darkspawn are left in the roads by the time of the endgame, or how quickly broodmothers can make right lost soldiers.

Since when do surface royals matter?  They have lost their connection to the Stone and are little more than casteless without a brand.

No, I meant actual rulers on the surface. The people who the King of Orzammar signs treaties with. And for that matter, there's the Chantry, who are their main trading partners on the surface, and buy such of the lyrium as Orzammar sees fit to sell.

They matter because money, mages, beer that doesn't suck, and silk. There's resources you cannot get underground. Not to mention military support if you picked a dwarf Warden, which by the way Harrowmont doesn't use anywhere near as much as he should. The human armies are relegated to logistical help, whereas Bhelen lets them take some of the strain off of the dwarves with regards to actual fighting.

Well they shouldn't have chosen to be casteless then, should they?

That would be a valid response if the dwarf's personal choice was a be-all-end-all solution to lack of caste. That really doesn't seem to be the case. There was a choice made, but not necessarily within living memory, and not even necessarily by the dwarf concerned (or ancestor of such). All that you need to do to lose your caste is to get convicted of a crime. Actually committing one isn't neccesary, nor is deciding to live on the surface. And you can only pass on a caste if you have one.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 21 janvier 2013 - 02:24 .

[BlueMagitek]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

It's a combination of Bhelen's lack of regard for any law but his own, and any tradition except the "Aeducan throne" thing (just tell me you're not limiting yourself if you let your enemies and naysayers pick at your decisions because the law says so) and the fact that Harrowmont really does not have it in him to push like Bhelen does.

At the moment, the epilogues are what we have. And Gaider never said he was throwing out any part of the epilogues he hasn't already. Just because it's hearsay doesn't make it false. It's just that he might or might not decide it's true.

Nor does killing Harrowmont's entire house necessarily invalidate them. The epilogues state that Bhelen rules in a way that can be construed as tyrannical. Not to mention that we've already seen how he handles dissent in both the epilogue and Origins gameplay. It never mentioned this, but there you go.

(For that matter, we don't "clearly see" anything with regards to Harrowmont's rule in DA2, if I remember correctly.)

Yes, he is, and Vartag is very loyal to Bhelen. It's a pity Vartag would stoop to this for Bhelen's sake, but what can you do? Of course, Bhelen never saw it coming, and will let Piotin beat on you if you say otherwise. (Publically, too. Bhelen has every right to call an Honor Proving over this.)

Edit: Jokes aside, the Warden has nothing but their own words to back this up. In this way, it actually makes a pretty good test to determine how serious the Warden is as a supporter.

We don't see how many the dwarves and the Legion lose at Denerim, or precisely how many spawn escape. We do hear Oghren's guess that they're outnumbered 3-1, but that's about it.

For that matter, I don't think we know how many darkspawn are left in the roads by the time of the endgame, or how quickly broodmothers can make right lost soldiers.

No, I meant actual rulers on the surface. The people who the King of Orzammar signs treaties with. And for that matter, there's the Chantry, who are their main trading partners on the surface, and buy such of the lyrium as Orzammar sees fit to sell.

They matter because money, mages, beer that doesn't suck, and silk. There's resources you cannot get underground. Not to mention military support if you picked a dwarf Warden, which by the way Harrowmont doesn't use anywhere near as much as he should. The human armies are relegated to logistical help, whereas Bhelen lets them take some of the strain off of the dwarves with regards to actual fighting.

That would be a valid response if the dwarf's personal choice was a be-all-end-all solution to lack of caste. That really doesn't seem to be the case. There was a choice made, but not necessarily within living memory, and not even necessarily by the dwarf concerned (or ancestor of such). All that you need to do to lose your caste is to get convicted of a crime. Actually committing one isn't neccesary, nor is deciding to live on the surface. And you can only pass on a caste if you have one.

That Bhelen is willing to disregard the ancient traditions is most dishonorable.  The Paragon he claims to model himself after was no kinslayer.  Acknowledging the casteless, or even worse, allowing them to take up roles outside of their caste?  Terrible.

Which is exactly why the new Dales are doing fine, the Cousland is ruling well and Loghain is busy bashing Orlesian skulls, right?

Let me be perfectly clear, we have a population issue.  I fear that the destruction of another house, after losing Branka's house, is extremely damaging to our people.  Now, "people" like Bhelen may be fine with laying with a casteless harlot, but some of us have standards.  Do you want to see the Dwarvern people inbred to extinction?

Yes, Bhelen does have the right for an Honor Proving, but all evidence points to that ending in the Warden comitting wannabe-regicide.  Which would solve the succession crisis nicely, I suppose.   The Warden isn't a dwarf and doesn't really understand how things go down.  And since when have the words of the Warden not been enough for the Dwarvern People?  They're the only ones who fight the darkspawn aside from us.  You labor a serious accusation against them.

Oh yes, the rulers of the surface.  They have done us so well in the past, haven't they?  The Tevinter certainly helped us unleashing all these flesh golems down here.  They helped us in the past too, when we were being ravaged by the darkspawn and they were busy worshipping a flying lizard.  And truly the human rulers who don't even know what a Deshry is and demanded our fealty is worth our respect.  It isn't like they have left us to face the darkspawn on our own as they struggle in a civil war when a few darkspawn head to the surface.  It's nice to have a relief for us.  Oh and of course the nug-damn Chantry!  They don't worship or acknowledge the Stone and their plug on the Lyrium trade has long cost us in profit.  We rely on casteless to smuggle Lyrium.  How can you look me in the eye and tell me that a ruler of the surface has ever done good by the Dwarvern people apart from the Wardens?

All of those things can be taken for our own by our legions of Iron Men if need be.  They do not lose connection to the Stone, as we do.  And worse comes to worse, we do without.  We have done without the support of the world for the majority of our history, and as we reclaim the Anvil we shall do so once again.

As I said before, the Casteless are free to join the Legion of the Dead.  We could use a bolster to our numbers as well.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

BlueMagitek wrote...

That Bhelen is willing to disregard the ancient traditions is most dishonorable.  The Paragon he claims to model himself after was no kinslayer.

No, but he did completely ignore the deshyrs for the good of the city. And he was flat out right to.

Acknowledging the casteless, or even worse, allowing them to take up roles outside of their caste?  Terrible.

Why?

Which is exactly why the new Dales are doing fine, the Cousland is ruling well and Loghain is busy bashing Orlesian skulls, right?

Which of my points are you responding to, here?

Let me be perfectly clear, we have a population issue.  I fear that the destruction of another house, after losing Branka's house, is extremely damaging to our people.  Now, "people" like Bhelen may be fine with laying with a casteless harlot, but some of us have standards.  Do you want to see the Dwarvern people inbred to extinction?

In one breath: we have a population problem.
In the other: I have standards that prevent me from helping solve it.
Conclusion: the only option is the one I advocate.

Yes, Bhelen does have the right for an Honor Proving, but all evidence points to that ending in the Warden comitting wannabe-regicide.  Which would solve the succession crisis nicely, I suppose.   The Warden isn't a dwarf and doesn't really understand how things go down.  

Bhelen would almost certainly lose to the Warden. Which is why I mentioned Piotin. He could probably take the Warden, if it was 1-on-1. Also, I was mostly sarcastically pointing out the lack of evidence. Which brings me to...

And since when have the words of the Warden not been enough for the Dwarvern People?  They're the only ones who fight the darkspawn aside from us.  You labor a serious accusation against them.

Because the dwarves have a long history of ignoring what they consider to be morality when necessary. All Bhelen's doing is being more pragmatic about it. 

Oh yes, the rulers of the surface.  They have done us so well in the past, haven't they?  The Tevinter certainly helped us unleashing all these flesh golems down here.  They helped us in the past too, when we were being ravaged by the darkspawn and they were busy worshipping a flying lizard.  And truly the human rulers who don't even know what a Deshry is and demanded our fealty is worth our respect.  It isn't like they have left us to face the darkspawn on our own as they struggle in a civil war when a few darkspawn head to the surface.  It's nice to have a relief for us.

None of those are in power by the time period we're discussing; the Imperium still exists, but the Magisters in question? Long dead.

 Oh and of course the nug-damn Chantry!  They don't worship or acknowledge the Stone and their plug on the Lyrium trade has long cost us in profit.  We rely on casteless to smuggle Lyrium.  How can you look me in the eye and tell me that a ruler of the surface has ever done good by the Dwarvern people apart from the Wardens?

Because of the aid you can score with a dwarven Warden. And the trade you mention in one breath and dismiss in another.

All of those things can be taken for our own by our legions of Iron Men if need be.  They do not lose connection to the Stone, as we do.  And worse comes to worse, we do without.  We have done without the support of the world for the majority of our history, and as we reclaim the Anvil we shall do so once again.

Bearing in mind that I've never played this game myself, I seem to recall reading that Varric did not lose his. This was a parody I was reading, so I'm not 100% on the accuracy, but for all I know...

(Oh, and you're aware that the Tevinters were massive trading partners for the dwarven empire before the Chantry )@*#4ed everything up?)

(Also, I do not recall anyone ever mentioning a point when Orzammar went without surface silk.)

As I said before, the Casteless are free to join the Legion of the Dead.  We could use a bolster to our numbers as well.

That's exactly why you shouldn't support Harrowmont; Bhelen expands the army to contain brands, so that brands who want some chance of living to retirement can still join. (Which I explicitly pointed out. Are you trolling?)

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 21 janvier 2013 - 03:27 .

[BlueMagitek]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

 No, but he did completely ignore the deshyrs for the good of the city. And he was flat out right to.

Why?

Which of my points are you responding to, here?

In one breath: we have a population problem.
In the other: I have standards that prevent me from helping solve it.
Conclusion: the only option is the one I advocate.

Bhelen would almost certainly lose to the Warden. Which is why I mentioned Piotin. He could probably take the Warden, if it was 1-on-1. Also, I was mostly sarcastically pointing out the lack of evidence. Which brings me to...

Because the dwarves have a long history of ignoring what they consider to be morality when necessary. All Bhelen's doing is being more pragmatic about it. 

None of those are in power by the time period we're discussing; the Imperium still exists, but the Magisters in question? Long dead.

Because of the aid you can score with a dwarven Warden. And the trade you mention in one breath and dismiss in another.

Bearing in mind that I've never played this game myself, I seem to recall reading that Varric did not lose his. This was a parody I was reading, so I'm not 100% on the accuracy, but for all I know...

(Oh, and you're aware that the Tevinters were massive trading partners for the dwarven empire before the Chantry )@*#4ed everything up?)

(Also, I do not recall anyone ever mentioning a point when Orzammar went without surface silk.)

That's exactly why you shouldn't support Harrowmont; Bhelen expands the army to contain brands, so that brands who want some chance of living to retirement can still join. (Which I explicitly pointed out. Are you trolling?)

Yes, that the Paragon was.  However, we would not have a crisis had Bhelen not manuevered it himself.  An excellent stroke on his part true, but to kill his own kin for it?  The Deep Roads are too good for that one.

Because they are casteless.  Vile criminals the lot of them.

The belief that any of the epilogue holds true.  Alas poor Mahariel, you have fallen in vain defending a people that were not your own.

That noble hunters exist itself is the compromise we have long held.  In return for sons (or daughters, though truth be told I have never heard of a male noble hunter nor a female noble who would be willing to take one) they and their families are elevated in status.  Is this not enough of a compromise for you?  Why must you spit on our longstanding ways?

What?  Piotin was slain by the Warden after the Provings.  Piotin had the audacity to strike first.  Pity, he was a fine warrior.

We shall see what the Stone has to say about it. 

Are the magisters long dead?  I hear tell that they have popped up in Legacy.  And that the individuals themselves are dead is of little matter.  The surface world has not changed in that time.  Horned giants have appeared, yes, but Thedas functions as it always has.

Has that happened?  I have it on good authority that instead the King Alistar heads off in search of Maric and Orlesian cheeses.  Hah.  They wouldn't know a good cheese if a nug ran off with one. 

There was a failed negotation on allowing noble houses to bring their own back from the surface after a failed business venture, but it is rumored that after the death of Lord Dace's son the negotations fell through, especially as King Aeducan died shortly after.

And yes, the Tevinter were massive trading partners.  Pity we had to destroy our own Thaigs because some of them held elf refugees.  Or have you forgotten that?

What?  What sort of madman would put casteless in the military?  That's the duty of the Warrior caste.  The casteless may go to the Legion of the Dead, as they have always done in the past.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I'll respond in the morning. You've been fed enough for tonight.

[BlueMagitek]

You need to look at these things from a dwarvern perspective. :/

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

BlueMagitek wrote...

You need to look at these things from a dwarvern perspective. :/

I said I would in the morning :/

[BlueMagitek]

Well you sleep well then. And may the schwartz be with you.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

That's the plan.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I can't believe I'm responding after you as good as admitted you're trolling, but here it goes...

[quote]BlueMagitek wrote...

Yes, that the Paragon was.  However, we would not have a crisis had Bhelen not manuevered it himself.  An excellent stroke on his part true, but to kill his own kin for it?  The Deep Roads are too good for that one. [/quote]

Are you referring to the succession crisis, or the "we have two thaigs left" crisis?

[quote]
Because they are casteless.  Vile criminals the lot of them. [/quote]

Try getting yourself legally banned from having a job that doesn't suck, and then get back to me on that.

[quote]
The belief that any of the epilogue holds true.  Alas poor Mahariel, you have fallen in vain defending a people that were not your own. [/quote]

For the moment, we might as well assume the stuff we don't have evidence contradicting holds true. I don't think killing every single Harrowmont precludes loosening caste restrictions or taking back thaigs, so...

[quote]
That noble hunters exist itself is the compromise we have long held.  In return for sons (or daughters, though truth be told I have never heard of a male noble hunter nor a female noble who would be willing to take one) they and their families are elevated in status.  Is this not enough of a compromise for you?  Why must you spit on our longstanding ways? [/quote]

They're stupid, bigoted, and hypocritical. And it's not enough to solve the population problem. And your standards preclude even those, is what you said. Picture a little bird who learned to stay flying 24/7 because men had learned not to miss their mark shooting. Now picture a bird who sneered at that bird for breaking tradition.

[quote]
What?  Piotin was slain by the Warden after the Provings.  Piotin had the audacity to strike first.  Pity, he was a fine warrior. [/quote]

What I'm referring to is the consequences if the Warden had attempted to publically decry Bhelen for that papers thing. Bhelen throws Vartag under the rug, and if the Warden tries to press the matter, he's insulted Bhelen's honor. I seem to remember Piotin being essentially the Stone itself in that Glory Proving...

[quote]
We shall see what the Stone has to say about it. [/quote]

Unpleasant things.
[quote]
Are the magisters long dead?  I hear tell that they have popped up in Legacy.  And that the individuals themselves are dead is of little matter.  The surface world has not changed in that time.  Horned giants have appeared, yes, but Thedas functions as it always has. [/quote]

[quote]
Has that happened?  I have it on good authority that instead the King Alistar heads off in search of Maric and Orlesian cheeses.  Hah.  They wouldn't know a good cheese if a nug ran off with one. [/quote]

Well, considering that that was basically the first thing on his agenda with a Dwarf Warden, it probably has.

[quote]
There was a failed negotation on allowing noble houses to bring their own back from the surface after a failed business venture, but it is rumored that after the death of Lord Dace's son the negotations fell through, especially as King Aeducan died shortly after. [/quote]

I was more referring to the descendents of people who made a decision that cost them their castes.

[quote]
And yes, the Tevinter were massive trading partners.  Pity we had to destroy our own Thaigs because some of them held elf refugees.  Or have you forgotten that?[/quote]

Well, the Tevinters more or less did right by you apart from that.

[quote]
What?  What sort of madman would put casteless in the military?  That's the duty of the Warrior caste.  The casteless may go to the Legion of the Dead, as they have always done in the past.
[/quote]

Thus proving you're theoretically okay with brands fighting for Orzammmar.

Except that your version of it kind of requires them to die. Seems to me there'd be more recruits if the casteless has a better retirement plan lined up. Also, to appeal to tradition without any other argument is to concede to defeat if you're arguing against a logician.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 21 janvier 2013 - 05:52 .

[Chashan]

To get back one more time on Branka as an...unknown:

Okay, inacurracies in my recall are noted.

As for the rest of it,
Branka's the one in control of the golems, and neither king can truly
control her. That makes her quite relevant to the viability of golems.
Harrowmont has more success working with her, because the only limit he
places is that dwarves are not to be used past a certain point. And even
that comes at a price, for both Orzammar and the outside world. (At
least Bhelen's complete failure to control her is more an underground
problem than a problem that effects both sides of the ground, though if
he'd done a better job Gaider knows
what might have happened.) It's not a question of "are golems useful?"
It's a question of "are they useful enough to be worth Branka?" (I'll
even admit I'm less sure of this answer than the answer to the Bhelen
vs. Harrowmont debate.)

At the end of the day, Branka is not immortal, so her staying in control of the Anvil indefinitely is not a given. Same goes for a possible heir she may or may not set up. I would rather think that she does not even care about passing control to someone of her liking.
Of course, what may happen is that she may turn herself into a golem...would make for interesting boss-fodder in DA:I, I guess, should that come to pass.

Otherwise, the immediacy of the Blight overrides concerns about Branka's instable psyche for me. She is the woman on the spot to get the golems rollin', I'll make do with that, and have just now on my current playthrough.

Of course, regarding the whole "change"-thing - a deal too close to recent US-political speak, for my liking - I have got to put the following question: is social upheaval and revolution in the middle of a Blight truly something at all desirable? The so perceived righteousness of a cause to abolish the castes not withstanding, I would think not. Not to mention Bhelen's...fickleness.

[BlueMagitek]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

I can't believe I'm responding after you as good as admitted you're trolling, but here it goes...

Are you referring to the succession crisis, or the "we have two thaigs left" crisis?

Try getting yourself legally banned from having a job that doesn't suck, and then get back to me on that.

For the moment, we might as well assume the stuff we don't have evidence contradicting holds true. I don't think killing every single Harrowmont precludes loosening caste restrictions or taking back thaigs, so...

They're stupid, bigoted, and hypocritical. And it's not enough to solve the population problem. And your standards preclude even those, is what you said. Picture a little bird who learned to stay flying 24/7 because men had learned not to miss their mark shooting. Now picture a bird who sneered at that bird for breaking tradition.

What I'm referring to is the consequences if the Warden had attempted to publically decry Bhelen for that papers thing. Bhelen throws Vartag under the rug, and if the Warden tries to press the matter, he's insulted Bhelen's honor. I seem to remember Piotin being essentially the Stone itself in that Glory Proving...

Unpleasant things.

Well, considering that that was basically the first thing on his agenda with a Dwarf Warden, it probably has.

I was more referring to the descendents of people who made a decision that cost them their castes.

Well, the Tevinters more or less did right by you apart from that.

Thus proving you're theoretically okay with brands fighting for Orzammmar.

Except that your version of it kind of requires them to die. Seems to me there'd be more recruits if the casteless has a better retirement plan lined up. Also, to appeal to tradition without any other argument is to concede to defeat if you're arguing against a logician.

The former.  I fear it isn't Bhelen's fault for the latter.

They are casteless.  They don't belong to a caste.  They can become noble hunters, join the Legion or die on the street.  I'm afraid I don't understand where you're going with this.

If he's using his new casteless thugs to murder dwarves, they aren't being used as fodder against the Darkspawn.  I thought that was his redeeming feature?

The latter bird was right to sneer at the former bird for breaking position.  Pretending to be something it isn't.  What, is it a humming bird now?  It's a normal bird and should be happy with its lot in life.  The Stone will remember it as such.

It is possible to do that after the provings, I fear.  Though I do find it odd that you enjoy throwing the House Aeducan to its demise.  Is it not enough that the Royal family was murdered?  Now you throw the cousins to the wolves as well?

Such is life if Orzammar.

That is where you are wrong.  For any king (or queen), the most important part is the line of sucession.  Now, as a Grey Warden, Alistar's seed is weak, so the first thing he needs to do is impregnate either a queen or a suitable concubine in order to ensure that the line of Maric stays strong.

The Stone does not remember them at all, I'm afraid.

Aside from the hundreds of Flesh Golems in the Deep Road.  Here I thought all the ancient darkspawn were bad.

Yes, so long as they join the appropriate caste, the Legion of the Dead.

That is the lot of the brands in life.  It is theirs to do with what they please.  There are many fine Legionaires, but I have yet to meet a fine brand.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Chashan wrote...

To get back one more time on Branka as an...unknown:

Okay, inacurracies in my recall are noted.

As for the rest of it,
Branka's the one in control of the golems, and neither king can truly
control her. That makes her quite relevant to the viability of golems.
Harrowmont has more success working with her, because the only limit he
places is that dwarves are not to be used past a certain point. And even
that comes at a price, for both Orzammar and the outside world. (At
least Bhelen's complete failure to control her is more an underground
problem than a problem that effects both sides of the ground, though if
he'd done a better job Gaider knows
what might have happened.) It's not a question of "are golems useful?"
It's a question of "are they useful enough to be worth Branka?" (I'll
even admit I'm less sure of this answer than the answer to the Bhelen
vs. Harrowmont debate.)

At the end of the day, Branka is not immortal, so her staying in control of the Anvil indefinitely is not a given. Same goes for a possible heir she may or may not set up. I would rather think that she does not even care about passing control to someone of her liking.
Of course, what may happen is that she may turn herself into a golem...would make for interesting boss-fodder in DA:I, I guess, should that come to pass.

Yeah, but how much damage can she do in that time? For that matter, if she does pass on the Anvil, how much more does she do by proxy? And if she doesn't pass on the knowledge, will anyone be able to figure out how to do what she did? Caridin's apprentices didn't know how to make a control rod, which implies that bit, at least, is non-obvious.

Otherwise, the immediacy of the Blight overrides concerns about Branka's instable psyche for me. She is the woman on the spot to get the golems rollin', I'll make do with that, and have just now on my current playthrough.

That's roleplay. I'm talking about metagame. For just roleplay reasons, I have sided with Branka and Caridin. For metagame reasons? From what I've seen so far, Caridin's the better choice there. Gaider could change that with later events, and I will admit it if and when he does.

Of course, regarding the whole "change"-thing - a deal too close to recent US-political speak, for my liking - I have got to put the following question: is social upheaval and revolution in the middle of a Blight truly something at all desirable? The so perceived righteousness of a cause to abolish the castes not withstanding, I would think not. Not to mention Bhelen's...fickleness.

In the middle of a Blight? The fact that we learn about this in the epilogue implies that the Blight was well over before too much of this happened. (Apart from the thing where brands are allowed to join the army, which is a very good change to enact during a Blight.)

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

If you're still on this thread, you might notice I actually decided to respond to some of these. Mainly because there was one good one in there.

BlueMagitek wrote...

The former.  I fear it isn't Bhelen's fault for the latter.

They are casteless.  They don't belong to a caste.  They can become noble hunters, join the Legion or die on the street.  I'm afraid I don't understand where you're going with this.

If he's using his new casteless thugs to murder dwarves, they aren't being used as fodder against the Darkspawn.  I thought that was his redeeming feature?

Since you actually had a point with this one, why do you assume the Carta thugs who go after Harrowmont represent all the casteless he had? It's probably not even close. Hell, they're probably not even strictly his.

Or, if you were talking about the ones who'd slaughtered the previous Harrowmont, that's still probably not all the casteless he had.

The latter bird was right to sneer at the former bird for breaking position.  Pretending to be something it isn't.  What, is it a humming bird now?  It's a normal bird and should be happy with its lot in life.  The Stone will remember it as such.

And nobody else will at all.

It is possible to do that after the provings, I fear.  Though I do find it odd that you enjoy throwing the House Aeducan to its demise.  Is it not enough that the Royal family was murdered?  Now you throw the cousins to the wolves as well?

What I'm saying is that if you'd tried to call Bhelen on what he'd done, you'd have no proof aside from your own word. Regardless of what people think of your order in general, you personally aren't going to be able to convince anybody to imprison Bhelen. Maybe not even Vartag. And either of them can call an honor proving. If it's Bhelen doing so, the champion he'll use is Piotin. And at least in his first appearance, he's a boss level character. Honor Provings are 1-1. What I'm saying... is the opposite of House Aeducan's demise.

Such is life if Orzammar.

That is where you are wrong.  For any king (or queen), the most important part is the line of sucession.  Now, as a Grey Warden, Alistar's seed is weak, so the first thing he needs to do is impregnate either a queen or a suitable concubine in order to ensure that the line of Maric stays strong.

And yet he's not attending to that at the Coronation; he's instead celebrating with the people and promising the dwarves aid.

The Stone does not remember them at all, I'm afraid.

Aside from the hundreds of Flesh Golems in the Deep Road.  Here I thought all the ancient darkspawn were bad.

Yes, so long as they join the appropriate caste, the Legion of the Dead.

That is the lot of the brands in life.  It is theirs to do with what they please.  There are many fine Legionaires, but I have yet to meet a fine brand.

Well, thanks for proving Bhelen right. Catch you later.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 22 janvier 2013 - 12:51 .

[Chashan]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...


Yeah, but how much damage can she do in that time? For that matter, if she does pass on the Anvil, how much more does she do by proxy? And if she doesn't pass on the knowledge, will anyone be able to figure out how to do what she did? Caridin's apprentices didn't know how to make a control rod, which implies that bit, at least, is non-obvious.

Fair point, and I will not deny Branka is a wild-card with the Anvil still intact, at best.

I take it that you think that it takes a genius of Paragon-status to figure out the Anvil? Personally, I do not believe that, and with the Anvil being secure and its location known, it would be accessible even after Branka is gone.

That's roleplay. I'm talking about metagame. For just roleplay reasons, I have sided with Branka and Caridin. For metagame reasons? From what I've seen so far, Caridin's the better choice there. Gaider could change that with later events, and I will admit it if and when he does.

We will see, I guess. BW certainly have room to have another go at the whole golem-question in DA:I.

In the middle of a Blight? The fact that we learn about this in the epilogue implies that the Blight was well over before too much of this happened. (Apart from the thing where brands are allowed to join the army, which is a very good change to enact during a Blight.)

You will concede that it is something worthy of consideration prior to commiting to either pretenders to the succession, though? What with the whole "change"-propaganda etc., which, as I mentioned, rubs me the wrong way right off the bat.

...Even though Bhelen's dictatorship appears to be painted in the brightest colours possible in DA:O proper's epilogue, I do feel a lot more comfy with those golems available at the end and a bit of strife present after the big bad that is the Blight.
Though my mind is set concerning this decision as is, I will concede one thing to the whole situation: usually, in this type of scenario the "traditionalist" ends up being on the more ruthless side of things. I have got to laud BW taking a different approach regarding 'monty and Bhel' there.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Chashan wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...


Yeah, but how much damage can she do in that time? For that matter, if she does pass on the Anvil, how much more does she do by proxy? And if she doesn't pass on the knowledge, will anyone be able to figure out how to do what she did? Caridin's apprentices didn't know how to make a control rod, which implies that bit, at least, is non-obvious.

Fair point, and I will not deny Branka is a wild-card with the Anvil still intact, at best.

I take it that you think that it takes a genius of Paragon-status to figure out the Anvil? Personally, I do not believe that, and with the Anvil being secure and its location known, it would be accessible even after Branka is gone.

It seems to take one to figure out control rods, and if you're going to have golems, you damn well want to be able to hack them in an emergency. Not to mention that if the control rod is that complicated, there's no reason the Anvil can't be. I'm not saying it takes a master smith to use at all. Figuring out the Anvil with a teacher is probably advanced but not difficult enough to require a once-in-a-generation skill. Figuring out the Anvil without a teacher? If it was that easy, Orzammar would have figured it out themselves. (There were at least rumors going around about what Caridin had to do.) And she's not going to teach this to anybody who isn't loyal to her instead of the monarchy. 

That's roleplay. I'm talking about metagame. For just roleplay reasons, I have sided with Branka and Caridin. For metagame reasons? From what I've seen so far, Caridin's the better choice there. Gaider could change that with later events, and I will admit it if and when he does.

We will see, I guess. BW certainly have room to have another go at the whole golem-question in DA:I.

In the middle of a Blight? The fact that we learn about this in the epilogue implies that the Blight was well over before too much of this happened. (Apart from the thing where brands are allowed to join the army, which is a very good change to enact during a Blight.)

You will concede that it is something worthy of consideration prior to commiting to either pretenders to the succession, though? What with the whole "change"-propaganda etc., which, as I mentioned, rubs me the wrong way right off the bat.

Change is not a bad thing. Especially with regards to Orzammar. The devs went out of their way to make it dystopian. I might have to rethink my judgement after Inquisition comes out, but even after seeing what he did to House Harrowmont, I think in balance reshaping Orzammar is a good thing. What he did to his rival's family was meant to be his Moral Event Horizon, I'm sure, and really it kind of was. (I say this is the Event Horizon because at least what he did to his own family had a end that one can argue justifies the means.) But the caste restrictions being loosened as opposed to tightened, more soldiers on the frontlines, and more economic activity as opposed to less? Not to mention that Bhelen actually uses the surface soldiers boon. So far, I think the good outweighs the bad.

As for changes during the Blight, they don't seem to have had much impact. The dwarven armies don't seem any different under either king, for better or worse. It's right down to the same three men discussing House Klaret's missing men, I believe.

...Even though Bhelen's dictatorship appears to be painted in the brightest colours possible in DA:O proper's epilogue, I do feel a lot more comfy with those golems available at the end and a bit of strife present after the big bad that is the Blight.

Could you clarify a little? I don't see how strife is a good thing in and of itself.

As for the dictatorship, if it helps, try picturing it as a choice between a dictatorship and an oligarchy. Because while I would like to see a true democracy or benevolent monarchy in Orzammar, from what I've seen you really are picking between one ends-justifies-the-means tyrant and a small horde of mini-Bhelens.

Though my mind is set concerning this decision as is, I will concede one thing to the whole situation: usually, in this type of scenario the "traditionalist" ends up being on the more ruthless side of things. I have got to laud BW taking a different approach regarding 'monty and Bhel' there.

Harrowmont is ruthless. Just not towards his equals or superiors. Bhelen stomps the carta flat, and then uses its remnants to his own ends. Harrowmont stomps the carta flat. Twice.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 23 janvier 2013 - 12:49 .

[Chashan]

It seems to take one to figure out control rods, and if you're going to
have golems, you damn well want to be able to hack them in an emergency.
Not to mention that if the control rod is that complicated, there's no
reason the Anvil can't be. I'm not saying it takes a master smith to use
at all. Figuring out the Anvil with a teacher is probably advanced but
not difficult enough to require a once-in-a-generation skill. Figuring
out the Anvil without a teacher? If it was that easy, Orzammar would
have figured it out themselves. (There were at least rumors going around
about what Caridin had to do.) And she's not going to teach this to
anybody who isn't loyal to her instead of the monarchy.

Point still is: location and even continued existence of the Anvil was in question prior to Wardens getting there. With its location known and ressources being allocated to keeping a hold on it, it is accessible again.
While I do realize that loyalty to the woman may entail subscribing to a certain grade of mad as well, that need not necessarily be the case.
The whole thing does come down to how the subject of golems are going to be touched upon again in the future, if at all, and how Branka influences that. So, wait and see it is.

Change is not a bad thing. Especially with regards to Orzammar. The
devs went out of their way to make it dystopian. I might have to rethink
my judgement after Inquisition comes out, but even after seeing what he
did to House Harrowmont, I think in balance reshaping Orzammar is a
good thing. What he did to his rival's family was meant to be his Moral
Event Horizon, I'm sure, and really it kind of was. (I say this is the
Event Horizon because at least what he did to his own family had a end
that one can argue justifies the means.) But the caste restrictions
being loosened as opposed to tightened, more soldiers on the frontlines,
and more economic activity as opposed to less? Not to mention that
Bhelen actually uses the surface soldiers boon. So far, I think the good outweighs the bad.

As
for changes during the Blight, they don't seem to have had much impact.
The dwarven armies don't seem any different under either king, for
better or worse. It's right down to the same three men discussing House
Klaret's missing men, I believe.

Dystopian? I would not exactly call it that. Rigid adherence to delineating social classes and determining an individual's specific role within society, more like - which does make a certain bit of sense for a people that have, and wish to make do with limited space.

A "wrong" system if we apply our run-of-the-mill modern values of individual freedom of choice to it? Possibly, although I think that is very much a faulty approach; Thedas is by and large a world with different moral and societal rules than our own. Heck, even in our own I would argue that those are not the end-all-be-all standard for everyone going into the future.

Could you clarify a little? I don't see how strife is a good thing in and of itself.

As
for the dictatorship, if it helps, try picturing it as a choice between
a dictatorship and an oligarchy. Because while I would like to see a
true democracy or benevolent monarchy in Orzammar, from what I've seen
you really are picking between one ends-justifies-the-means tyrant and a
small horde of mini-Bhelens.

What I mean to say is that stopping the Blight is the Wardens' primary concern - not leave romantic social revolutions in their wake. These types of uprising can take unpredictable turns and very well blow up in the system's face right away.
I'll admit that I have not played a dwarf Warden yet, so I do not rule out that I lack "inside" context to that.

As for "desire" of how the dwarven people are supposed to be governed...that is for "them" (meaning the writers behind DA, really) to decide, according to their rules, laws and conduct. Supplanting that with something else takes away from their unique identity.
Last thing I would want is for a sort of "dwarven" Cailan to take on the reins. Then again, fool that man was, I would not wish the like of that in charge of any nation in Thedas.

And one advantage an oligarchy has over a dictatorship is peer-control. One thing I hope BW to do in Bhel's case is that they make it somewhat more clear that, ultimately, he creates his own hierarchy after "purging" the old, centered around his own person. Very typical modus operandi for such a type of ruler.

Harrowmont is ruthless. Just not
towards his equals or superiors. Bhelen stomps the carta flat, and then
uses its remnants to his own ends. Harrowmont stomps the carta flat.
Twice.

And trying to stomp out a mafia-equivalent is bad...how?

I pointed this out earlier that something is indeed quite wrong with that particular corner of Orzammar before, so I appreciate that you seem to acknowledge that  a "crack-down" is indeed in order there...

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

[quote]Chashan wrote...

[quote]It seems to take one to figure out control rods, and if you're going to
have golems, you damn well want to be able to hack them in an emergency.
Not to mention that if the control rod is that complicated, there's no
reason the Anvil can't be. I'm not saying it takes a master smith to use
at all. Figuring out the Anvil with a teacher is probably advanced but
not difficult enough to require a once-in-a-generation skill. Figuring
out the Anvil without a teacher? If it was that easy, Orzammar would
have figured it out themselves. (There were at least rumors going around
about what Caridin had to do.) And she's not going to teach this to
anybody who isn't loyal to her instead of the monarchy.[/quote]

Point still is: location and even continued existence of the Anvil was in question prior to Wardens getting there. With its location known and ressources being allocated to keeping a hold on it, it is accessible again.[/quote]

Yeah, having access to the Anvil helps, but how many false starts would it take to create a useful golem without a teacher?  Without even the research notes that Caridin almost certainly tossed into the lava to sublimate?  How much would you learn per false start? Caridin cites examples of ways it can go wrong, presumably from experience. So even he probably didn't get it right the first time. That Branka can eventually get it right is almost certainly a testament to her genius, even despite having the Anvil right in front of her. And if she doesn't find an apprentice she trusts, that's all gone and there's not much more to show for it.

[quote]
While I do realize that loyalty to the woman may entail subscribing to a certain grade of mad as well, that need not necessarily be the case. [/quote]

Another complication is what she might perceive as loyalty to her. We don't know. She might decide one day that she wants Lawful-Neutral drones, and then the next decide to kick them all out or order them all killed (I believe she's within her rights as a Paragon there) out of sheer paranoia. More likely, she'd just have a new, Lawful Neutral House Branka comprised of unquestioning loyalty to her insanity, and then god knows who takes that over when her body gives out. Probably Branka v2.0. And that's assuming she doesn't have herself turned when she's sure she's got apprentices good enough, and trusts them not to build a rod for her.

[quote]
The whole thing does come down to how the subject of golems are going to be touched upon again in the future, if at all, and how Branka influences that. So, wait and see it is. 
[/quote]
Works for me. I really am curious what they do with this.
[quote]
[quote]
Change is not a bad thing. Especially with regards to Orzammar. The
devs went out of their way to make it dystopian. I might have to rethink
my judgement after Inquisition comes out, but even after seeing what he
did to House Harrowmont, I think in balance reshaping Orzammar is a
good thing. What he did to his rival's family was meant to be his Moral
Event Horizon, I'm sure, and really it kind of was. (I say this is the
Event Horizon because at least what he did to his own family had a end
that one can argue justifies the means.) But the caste restrictions
being loosened as opposed to tightened, more soldiers on the frontlines,
and more economic activity as opposed to less? Not to mention that
Bhelen actually uses the surface soldiers boon. So far, I think the good outweighs the bad.

As
for changes during the Blight, they don't seem to have had much impact.
The dwarven armies don't seem any different under either king, for
better or worse. It's right down to the same three men discussing House
Klaret's missing men, I believe.[/quote]

Dystopian? I would not exactly call it that. Rigid adherence to delineating social classes and determining an individual's specific role within society, more like - which does make a certain bit of sense for a people that have, and wish to make do with limited space. [/quote]

The caste system is bad enough. Or, it would be bad enough if everyone had a caste; my main problem with Orzammar is that that's not true. But the cherry on top is the bickering assembly and the questionable "honor" of the upper classes. Why can Bhelen screw the DN in the assembly? Because enough of the assembly is okay with it. Why did Paragon Aeducan become a Paragon? Because he was smart enough not to wait for them to stop bickering and give him his orders, and saved Orzammar despite them. So, I think "dystopian" works.

[quote]
A "wrong" system if we apply our run-of-the-mill modern values of individual freedom of choice to it? Possibly, although I think that is very much a faulty approach; Thedas is by and large a world with different moral and societal rules than our own. Heck, even in our own I would argue that those are not the end-all-be-all standard for everyone going into the future. [/quote]

That's not even the problem. I accept, since we're playing a game based on medieval society, that there are lords and peasants and everything in between. I accept that barring exceptional circumstances, they and theirs will probably keep that position for the forseeable future. In fact, I don't believe I recall ever saying that the caste system should completely disappear. The castes provide some idea who does what, so hey, why not?

But the nobles have obligations as a result of this. Dust Town just isn't cool. I don't believe for a second that Bhelen is a perfect king, and I strongly doubt that the reforms he makes are even mostly for moral reasons. But they line up with what I see as necessary morally, and this is without the fact that they mean more soldiers for the frontlines.

[quote]
[quote]Could you clarify a little? I don't see how strife is a good thing in and of itself.

As
for the dictatorship, if it helps, try picturing it as a choice between
a dictatorship and an oligarchy. Because while I would like to see a
true democracy or benevolent monarchy in Orzammar, from what I've seen
you really are picking between one ends-justifies-the-means tyrant and a
small horde of mini-Bhelens.[/quote]

What I mean to say is that stopping the Blight is the Wardens' primary concern - not leave romantic social revolutions in their wake. [/quote]

To speak of one is to speak of the other, in this case at least. Bhelen's "social revolutions" include the right to volunteer for the front lines.

[quote]These types of uprising can take unpredictable turns and very well blow up in the system's face right away.
I'll admit that I have not played a dwarf Warden yet, so I do not rule out that I lack "inside" context to that. [/quote]

Noted, but that doesn't seem to have happened, according to the epilogue. Edit: Or, okay, it did to some extent, but the situation was handled. Bhelen eventually gets Orzammar under control, despite a quite predictable backlash from the higher castes.

[quote]
As for "desire" of how the dwarven people are supposed to be governed...that is for "them" (meaning the writers behind DA, really) to decide, according to their rules, laws and conduct. Supplanting that with something else takes away from their unique identity. [/quote]

All I'm saying is what I'd be inclined to pick given the options. Which is absolutely relevant, given that, through the protagonist-centered morality common in RPGs, you end up picking. There's an option to refuse to get involved, but the plot stays where it is until you change your mind and pick a future for Orzammar.

As to unique identity, this unique identity is screwing them over. I'm not saying it should be removed entirely, just that it shouldn't come at the expense of reason.

[quote]
Last thing I would want is for a sort of "dwarven" Cailan to take on the reins. Then again, fool that man was, I would not wish the like of that in charge of any nation in Thedas. [/quote]

Harrowmont goes into his reign trusting the assembly to act responsibly, and letting them do most of the work. One could argue he qualifies.

[quote]
And one advantage an oligarchy has over a dictatorship is peer-control. One thing I hope BW to do in Bhel's case is that they make it somewhat more clear that, ultimately, he creates his own hierarchy after "purging" the old, centered around his own person. Very typical modus operandi for such a type of ruler. [/quote]

If I remember correctly, Frandlin Ivo (the guy whose testimony screws you in the Origin) is a member of a minor house who got a massive prestige boost through his association with Bhelen. I read enough fanfic that I don't really remember whether that's canon or not, but I think I recall something to that effect if you chat with Wojech Ivo (he's a Proving opponent in the game proper) as a DN.

So, if that is canon, stop waiting. What you seek has happened.

[quote]
[quote]Harrowmont is ruthless. Just not
towards his equals or superiors. Bhelen stomps the carta flat, and then
uses its remnants to his own ends. Harrowmont stomps the carta flat.
Twice.[/quote]

And trying to stomp out a mafia-equivalent is bad...how?

I pointed this out earlier that something is indeed quite wrong with that particular corner of Orzammar before, so I appreciate that you seem to acknowledge that  a "crack-down" is indeed in order there...
[/quote]

Stomping the carta out isn't what I object to. Frankly, it's necessary. But the only way for the carta to stay stomped is to either rinse and repeat periodically (Harrowmont's epilogue mentions one mop-up, that wouldn't be enough,) or come up with an alternative that people in good enough shape to join said mob can say with a straight face is better. (Or, hell, even just as good. Being a dwarven knight is arguably no better than dealing with Beraht, and you certainly fight more darkspawn as the former. But at least the law isn't on you, too.)

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 24 janvier 2013 - 03:00 .