170 réponses à ce sujet

[Arkalezth]

I haven't read every codex entry and all that, so correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I remember (metagaming apart), the Warden has no clue about the future plans of neither Harromont nor Bhelen, once one of them gets the throne. Dwarven wardens may have their reasons to choose one or the other, but other than that, you only know that Bhelen is a cheater who's happy to kill all opposition, whereas Harrowmont is apparently a honest guy, but you don't know who's going to make the best king in the long run.

Would it have been that hard to add a simple conversation line asking "Why should I make you king?". That way, Bhelen could briefly mention his intentions of changing how things work in Orzammar, and the choice wouldn't look so random as it looks to me know.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

As I've previously mentioned, Zevran can foreshadow Harrowmont's epic fail the first time you try to do a quest for him. Though I only saw this firsthand on my ninth playthrough, since I tended to use either Leiliana or a rogue Warden as my lockpicker, and spec two warriors to split both DPS and tank between them. You can also get a glimpse of Bhelen's plans for extended trade if you talk to a merchant supporter. Of course, neither of these really gets the whole message across.

And no, you were right about the Codex not really getting the whole thing across either.

[Ferretinabun]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

... Zevran can foreshadow Harrowmont's epic fail the first time you try to do a quest for him...

Can he? What does he say?

[TEWR]

Arkalezth wrote...

I haven't read every codex entry and all that, so correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I remember (metagaming apart), the Warden has no clue about the future plans of neither Harromont nor Bhelen, once one of them gets the throne. Dwarven wardens may have their reasons to choose one or the other, but other than that, you only know that Bhelen is a cheater who's happy to kill all opposition, whereas Harrowmont is apparently a honest guy, but you don't know who's going to make the best king in the long run.

Would it have been that hard to add a simple conversation line asking "Why should I make you king?". That way, Bhelen could briefly mention his intentions of changing how things work in Orzammar, and the choice wouldn't look so random as it looks to me know.

If you study Orzammar's history, you can find out a great deal of just what's been contributing to the downfall of the Dwarves which will show you who is the better choice. Infighting and lack of unity, for starters. Bhelen seeks to remedy that -- as does my DN Warden -- while Harrowmont is an ardent traditionalist. More so then previous kings.

You can talk to a merchant who says Bhelen plans on increasing trade with the surface, which ultimately means more goods/coin for the Dwarves. And that's always handy. A unified front means a better chance to reclaim old thaigs in an endless war.

And once Bhelen's on the throne, you can find out how he's willing to use the casteless of Orzammar to fight the Darkspawn, which means they'll have greater rights in exchange for it.

Of course, Bioware failed to recognize how their own lore regarding the Dwarves supports a DN being able to retake the throne of Orzammar, so if you're playing a DN you're forced to choose Harrowmont -- who is ill-fit for the role -- or Bhelen, who betrayed you.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Ferretinabun wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

... Zevran can foreshadow Harrowmont's epic fail the first time you try to do a quest for him...

Can he? What does he say?

www.youtube.com/watch

[Arkalezth]

@Riverdaleswhiteflash: Well, I don't know what Zevran says exactly (edit: just saw the video), but as you said, what if you don't have Zevran in your party? You should be able to get more clues about their way of ruling regardless or your party composition.

@Ethereal Writer: When you say "if you study Orzammar's story", I'm not sure if you mean me (the player, which is not my point) or my character.

I agree that Bhelen seeks to remedy many of the problems of Orzammar, but my question is: Can the Warden (particularly a non-dwarf Warden) be aware of Bhelen's intentions before electing a king?

OK, so there's that merchant. Regarding the casteless, though, "once Bhelen's on the throne" is too late. By then, you've already chosen a king. And what about Harrowmont? Can the Warden learn about his plans (or lack of) anywhere?

Most of the time I feel like my Warden's could make his choice as effectively by simply turning round and throwing the paragon-made crown over his shoulder as brides do with their bouquets.

Modifié par Arkalezth, 28 janvier 2013 - 02:47 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Arkalezth wrote...

@Riverdaleswhiteflash: Well, I don't know what Zevran says exactly (edit: just saw the video), but as you said, what if you don't have Zevran in your party? You should be able to get more clues about their way of ruling regardless or your party composition.

I agree completely.

[dragonflight288]

If you talk to the Shaper as well, Czibo mentions that Bhelen inquired after Paragon Bemot who was king during the previous blight. Czibo says Bhelen was very interested in hearing of the precedent of a King disbanding the assembly in times of war, creating a unified force.

Bhelen's supporters talk about him as if he should be king. Harrowmont's supporters talk about how Harrowmont made a deal with them or is honorable.

Both sides have their points, and there's enough hints to show what kind of King either one would be. I personally am playing a dwarven noble again, and I found that by starting off supporting Bhelen, then going to Harrowmont to play both sides for the second task, I can actually, as part of a quest to gain Harrowmont's support, gather evidence in the form of letters from Bhelen to the carta that incriminates Bhelen for the murder of Trian, thereby making a strong case of clearing my name.

[TEWR]

@Ethereal Writer: When you say "if you study Orzammar's story", I'm not sure if you mean me (the player, which is not my point) or my character.

Both. When I read the codex, I take it to mean my character is reading the info as well -- unless it's stuff that he would've grown up with, like say a DN and a history of Paragon Aeducan.

I agree that Bhelen seeks to remedy many of the problems of Orzammar, but my question is: Can the Warden (particularly a non-dwarf Warden) be aware of Bhelen's intentions before electing a king?

OK, so there's that merchant.

As dragonflight said, you find out about Bhelen studying Eithnar Bemot, who decreed that the King is to have absolute authority over the Dwarven Army in times of war -- he was the last king to reign during a Blight. 

Bhelen talks about absolute unity in fighting the Darkspawn, so Bhelen is obviously be echoing these sentiments. And that's the thing, as the Dwarves are locked in an endless war, so they do need absolute unity in fighting the Darkspawn. Their traditionalistic tendencies are what have caused their decline just as much as the Darkspawn have.

Bhelen seeks to remedy that, which you can find out before putting him on the throne. 

And what about Harrowmont? Can the Warden learn about his plans (or lack of) anywhere?

I don't think so. Oh, you'll hear how he's a "just and fair person" and how he's a traditionalist, but that's about it I think. 

dragonflight288 wrote...

Both sides have their points, and there's enough hints to show what kind of King either one would be. I personally am playing a dwarven noble again, and I found that by starting off supporting Bhelen, then going to Harrowmont to play both sides for the second task, I can actually, as part of a quest to gain Harrowmont's support, gather evidence in the form of letters from Bhelen to the carta that incriminates Bhelen for the murder of Trian, thereby making a strong case of clearing my name.

'Tis a shame the game doesn't truly recognize that in a way that fits with the lore, and twice the shame that you can't find it anyway as a DN that supports Bhelen but didn't kill Trian.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 28 janvier 2013 - 03:53 .

[Mottejl73]

I am not sure who will I support. But we must realize that Bhelen offers castelles greater rights only for military service against darkspawn. He don't do this just because he thinks it's good. And he also dissolves the Assembly.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Mottejl73 wrote...

I am not sure who will I support. But we must realize that Bhelen offers castelles greater rights only for military service against darkspawn. He don't do this just because he thinks it's good. And he also dissolves the Assembly.

He does good for neutral reasons, as well as such evil as keeps him in power. The Assembly does evil for evil reasons and doesn't seem to do any good to balance it out, and Harrowmont can't stop them. If you're roleplaying, fine, but if you understand that that's the choice, and are assuming your Warden does, then where's the difficulty in it? And why is dissolving the Assembly a bad thing in and of itself, given the above?

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 27 mai 2013 - 10:16 .

[Ferretinabun]

For me, we should really look beyond Harrowmont and Behlen. After all, they'll die eventually.

Behlen will leave Orzammar essentially a totalitarian city. With no Assembly, political power presumably is held pretty much exclusively by the king. Great if you have a military genius like Behlen on the throne. Not so much if you have a jackass up there. And just playing the odds, there are more jackasses than geniuses, so who's to say the next King will be a good one?

Conversely, Harrowmont will leave the Assembly's power in tact. This, I believe, is a better recipe for monarchy in the long run.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

It is hard to predict the future of Orzammar, not least because we can't read Gaider's mind. On the other hand, I don't see how the jackass king you fear can be that much worse than the jackass ridden Assembly I do, especially given that Bhelen (Edit: or whichever of his sons, grandsons, or assorted descendents raises the next jackass in the line) is presumably going to be trying to get at least a few of his ideals to take root in the head of that jackass where they never could in the Assembly. We've seen the Assembly in action, and we've seen evidence that it has been this way basically forever in Paragon Aeducan and Paragon Bemot's stories. If nothing else, it is almost inconcievable that the effects of Bhelen's reign will make things worse.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 28 mai 2013 - 01:37 .

[Bhryaen]

Not sure why the Assembly is so regularly seen as evil in itself. It's got snazzy people in it like Denek Helmi (albeit a rarity), and not everyone in the Assembly is of one evil mind. It's just that they're nobles who generally protect noble interests when the only way for Orzammar to progress involves ceding the nobility's power to the casteless and lower houses. That conflict of interest could be seen as an evil in itself, but, well, there's nothing preventing the Assembly members from prudence other than themselves. It's certainly not in the nobility's interest to politically implode and fall prey to the darkspawn- which is where the dwarves have been heading for far too long. And isn't Bhelen attempting to initiate the progress- granting some rights to the casteless? And is there not a large segment of the Assembly that supports him in it? So the Assembly isn't a uniform entity. It's a political arena, not a faction in itself.

So I don't buy that the Assembly would have to be the enemy. But, well, Bhelen sucks as a negotiator, just killing anyone who he calculates might oppose him, so he'd never ultimately be able to trust and work with the progressive elements in the Assembly. My DN was never consulted on his plans either- just brutally removed from the scene- and my DN would likely have teamed up with Bhelen if he'd been apprised of his political objectives. Harrowmont becomes a tool of the most regressive forces in the Assembly, but again, this doesn't necessarily implicate the entire Assembly. There is a struggle going on there, as demonstrated by the deadlock and the open battle if you give Harrowmont the crown.

Hell, with proper leadership in the Assembly, they could even dissolve the monarchy and establish rule by the Assembly. It's just as viable as an ostensible political arrangement and at least avoids the arbitrariness of an autocratic monarch. But it's all relative to the players involved and their intentions.

What Ferretinabun says is good too: which choice paves the way for a proper chain of succession, i.e., for long-term success for Orzammar? It appears neither candidate does. Harrowmont imbalances the executive and legislative in favor of the latter while Bhelen does in favor of the former. Harrowmont ruins the economy, isolates Orzammar, and in one case even murders everyone in Dust Town, poisoning the future of caste relations. Bhelen accelerates the corruption in Orzammar through his methods and finds himself ultimately deadlocked despite his reforms, so, as mentioned, any jackass could simply step into Bhelen's slot and wreak havoc unopposed... or opposed by everyone. The reforms could easily be recinded in that case, so essentially Bhelen leaves Orzammar a mess. The future of the last great city of the dwarves is far from certain either way. Thus Orzammar needs proper leadership. And that's why Jagan Aeducan is running for King of Orzammar this November. Vote early and vote often!

But the end slides make it pretty obvious that Bhelen is the better choice for the short-run. It's just the in-game experience that doesn't decisively support this- and likely for immersion reasons. And ultimately it's a question of which approach you're taking. The metagame answer is Bhelen (with reservations). The roleplayed answer will depend on a number of things that only your particular character will answer.

Playing my first DN who returned to Orzammar, I couldn't help just wanting to rush at Bhelen the moment I saw him in the Commons upon entering. But I know Jagan would be more composed and "leaderly," and the signs of Bhelen's political intentions do show during exploration, particularly with the crier statements, so Jagan began to suspect that there were larger issues than just Bhelen's treachery. When he first went to support Harrowmont, Jagan was surprised to hear Dulin tell him that he's "just as hot-headed as the rest of the Aeducans." So there is general disrespect for Aeducans from the Harrowmont camp? And how does that bode for Aeducans in the future with a Harrowmont ruler? (I'm aware of the irony of an Aeducan ruler (Bhelen) eradicating Harrowmonts, but not Jagan...) Then Harrowmont shot down Jagan's chances for getting reinstated so fast it smacked of Harrowmont being secretly opposed.

That almost clinched it for Bhelen, and Jagan was then capable of enduring the shyster Vartag's insults in order to meet with Bhelen. But then Bhelen agreed to accept Jagan's son only in the smallest of palace accomodations and as a "whortle's brat" and couldn't have been more demeaning to the brother he'd betrayed. Way to offer an olive branch. "You know I'm not desperate to support you, right?" Harrowmont had been nothing but respectful of Jagan's son and his son's mother and offered them welcome without condition. So Jagan decided that Bhelen was simply irredeemable and untrustworthy- not having any genuine interest in the casteless or dependability otherwise (even though, yes, Bhelen would've indeed been good on his word and ended up taking care of the "whortle" and "brat", more or less) and that regardless of Dulin's sentiments, the reign of Aeducan would have to end with Bhelen, Jagan's son growing up a Harrowmont.

And it's sad, because I know the end slides will go poorly, and for the rest of the game Jagan has felt somewhat adrift, unable to fully realize himself as Jagan Gray Warden. Ah, well. But it was still the "right" choice for that character...

[Son of Imoen]

Alas I lack the attention span to read long walls of text on internet, even though Bhryaen usually posts interesting things, but my 2 cents is that it's very much a question of what the Warden is like who finds Orzammar without a king and what happens in the span of time the Warden's choice is formed (the Warden knows nothing about future happenings once one or the other becomes king, a Warden can't meta-game).

Three Wardens of mine, like I told in the Dagna-thread, have entered Ostagar. My City-elf is mournful about the loss of elven tradition in the alienated Alienage lifestyle, feels a loss of a culture of her own (even though she won't know what elven culture is really like till she meets the Dalish later on) so she very much sympathises with Harrowmont, who tries preserving a culture (though it was a bit ignorant of my Warden to fail to recognize the casteless under Harrowmont are just as bad off as the Alienage elves under the Ferelden humans, no-elf is perfect).

My castleless dwarf had a very good reason for siding with Bhelen [slight spoiler] as a found-back family-member he likes already made that choice.

And my elven Mage had Zevran with him and being very unsure what to do for lack of good information, he went with Zevran's opinion, which focusses on who seems to be most determined to give proper military support against the Blight, so siding with the strong dwarf.

Many reasons why one should be better or not than the other only surface after the choice is made, before you have to choose there's not much info to be found, or is there? What are the options for informing yourself well before you commit yourself?

BTW: [spoiler] I know there's the option of changing your vote untill the last, but my Wardens did put a lot of worth on being trustworthy and not changing aliances 'on a whim'.

*edit: and now I myself have written a wall of text which I myself would have trouble reading. Oops

Modifié par Son of Imoen, 31 mai 2013 - 09:46 .

[Meeeps]

I yet always sided with Horrowmont, since I thought, if I help Behlen with his fake documents, he might also lie about the help against the blight.
Right now, I play a dwarfen common and here I chose the father of my nephew. A little question, is it possible to participate the Tornai for Behlen?

[mousestalker]

@Meeeps. Yes it is. You have to complete at least the first quest, but after that just show up at the Proving Ground and speak with the Proving Master.

[luna1124]

I have chosen each of them in different games. But prefer Harrowmont.

[cicero740]

i pick bhelen he promises to give me more aid against the blight and harrowmont is weak

[ejoslin]

Yeh, that's a biggie for me as well. Bhelen says absolutely he will get you your troops as soon as he has the power to do so, whereas Harrowmont says he'll put it past the assembly and see what happens.

[Giggles_Manically]

Bhelen.

That is the long and the short of it.
I mean to borrow an old quote:

"He may be a son of a ****, but he is our son of a ****"

[luna1124]

Bhelen is brutal. He killed his own brother, maybe even poisoned his own father.... I go with Harrowmont who is gentle and kind. Also, to side with Bhelen, they want you to plant evidence and lie.
Like I said, I went both ways, but prefer Harrowmont.

[Bhryaen]

I've often heard the refrain about Zevran saying Harrowmont is weak for hiding in his mansion while his lackeys do his legwork- and I've heard Zev say it myself- but, erm, so does Bhelen hide in his mansion while his lackeys do his legwork. They're 100% equal on that ground- both out on the Commons when you first enter (or re-enter) Orzammar, and both retreating to their respective enclaves afterward using "firsts" to screen visitors.

I never noticed Harrowmont being inconclusive about whether he'd send troops, but I also don't take people at their word very easily, and Bhelen's word isn't exactly platinum. In fact, to support him you have to outright lie, one way or another- either with the falsified real estate document or false implications of Harrowmont in Jarvia's dealings. So I'm supposed to trust his assurances of troops of someone who makes lies his modus operendi? This makes Bhelen seem the weaker candidate- more pompous and obnoxious perhaps, but weaker, unable to win on merits.

Bhelen's big win is in his promised reformism regarding the caste system, but that appeal has little to do with troops. Mostly my characters pretty much just garnered they'd get troops either way- just a matter of getting a king and flashing the Warden Treaties about- and just went with the candidate they thought would be best for Orzammar...

@Son of Imoen
Yeah, I get wordy when I'm interested in something and glean enough complexity in the matter.

Modifié par Bhryaen, 02 juin 2013 - 04:47 .

[sw33trene]

I always go with Harrowmont for all the reasons given above. Bhelen lies and cheats to get what he wants. Do your really want someone like that ruling over you?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

sw33trene wrote...

I always go with Harrowmont for all the reasons given above. Bhelen lies and cheats to get what he wants. Do your really want someone like that ruling over you?

If I'm roleplaying, no I don't. If I'm metagaming, then I already know the only alternative the game gives us to be worse all things considered. Lying and cheating are pretty minor next to my problems with Harrowmont.