170 réponses à ce sujet

[Bhryaen]

Oh, don't get me wrong. I don't tend to favor Harrowmont at all except as a pleasant-voiced fella. It's just that my characters who reject him (those who do) do so for different reasons than that they're concerned Harrowmont won't deliver on troops. Maybe I've been neglecting to notice his indecisiveness on it, but what has stood out for my characters was mainly that Bhelen- whatever the machiavellian machinations he employs toward his goals- appeared intent on doing something about Orzammar's despicable caste system- something anyway. I'd rather not have someone ruling over me who insists on a very cruel and offensive social structure purely based on the catch word "tradition." As brutal as Bhelen is to opponents, Harrowmont outright slaughters the residents of Dust Town if given Branka's golems...

I've only had two characters choose Harrowmont- one because he considered his brother irredeemable and had a son to look out for- and the other because she was maniacal and didn't like the tone in Bhelen's voice and managed to kill him with area-of-effect spells in his Palace quarters, ruining the ability to crown him later (which she would've done anyway).

But as to the question of "Do you really want someone like that ruling over you?" it doesn't actually apply. The Warden essentially chooses a ruler who will preside over others- perhaps over others who the Warden cares about, but not the Warden themself. I try to remain aware as a city elf or Tower elf or Dalish (or human, though I haven't played one that far yet) that I'm only a foreign guest and that Orzammar isn't my city- and thus I find myself making a decision affecting the very governance of an entirely alien society. It's different playing as a dwarf obviously, but even then you're only welcome to visit Orzammar as a Warden- getting ample rejection as a Duster or "kinslayer"- until the very end. So the question becomes more one of, "How can I make Orzammar stable and inspired enough to fight the blight?" You'll get many a statement of diffidence from Orzammar's residents if you put Harrowmont on the throne.

Modifié par Bhryaen, 03 juin 2013 - 04:51 .

[Angrywolves]

I choose Bhelen unlss I am playing a dwarf noble where Bhelen has betrayed me.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Bhryaen wrote...

I've often heard the refrain about Zevran saying Harrowmont is weak for hiding in his mansion while his lackeys do his legwork- and I've heard Zev say it myself- but, erm, so does Bhelen hide in his mansion while his lackeys do his legwork. They're 100% equal on that ground- both out on the Commons when you first enter (or re-enter) Orzammar, and both retreating to their respective enclaves afterward using "firsts" to screen visitors.

Okay, point taken. That said, the one time I had Zevran in the party for this, I just went along with him because I was roleplaying a character who cared more about his opinion than about Orzammar.

I never noticed Harrowmont being inconclusive about whether he'd send troops, but I also don't take people at their word very easily, and Bhelen's word isn't exactly platinum. In fact, to support him you have to outright lie, one way or another- either with the falsified real estate document or false implications of Harrowmont in Jarvia's dealings. So I'm supposed to trust his assurances of troops of someone who makes lies his modus operendi? This makes Bhelen seem the weaker candidate- more pompous and obnoxious perhaps, but weaker, unable to win on merits.

Winning on merits isn't what's happening either way: Harrowmont was buying votes, Bhelen was lying about his price for them.

[Bhryaen]

Well, Harrowmont never paid me for my vote. He just required a very public showing at the Provings and obtaining real documents in Jarvia's hdqts, and he's gotten that quite often despite seldom being my final pick. I hadn't meant that Harrowmont wins by merits just because Bhelen certainly doesn't. But Bhelen succeeds only if the Warden does underhanded deeds for him (until Jarvia and Branka, of course, which both need), having to cheat his way forward- almost preferring to cheat his way forward- while Harrowmont succeeds by the Warden championing both him and justice in an honest, conspicuous, and Orzammarian way.

It's something like negative and positive advertising. The player can't exactly feel sullied by simply wearing a Harrowmont banner during the Provings and helping Baizyl get out of another of Bhelen's underhanded maneuvers or exposing Bhelen's underhanded relations with Jarvia in setting up the DN and Trian for a fall. There may be no merit in it, but Harrowmont can certainly feel and set his crier to declaring that you've chosen him as the virtuous one. There's little that doesn't feel sullying about stooping to deeds which are not only outright deception but could get the Warden into trouble later if the ruse is exposed. It's not as if Bhelen doesn't have most of the Provings warriors fighting in his name already, so why not just ask for the Warden for such an above-board gesture as well? Surely that would turn off Harrowmont as much as Harrowmont wanted such a gesture for himself. Instead Bhelen insists on underhandedness.

Perhaps Bhelen's way is more of a guarantee? With Harrowmont it's just a public gesture. No real bind on the Warden to remain loyal to him, just the hope that Bhelen won't trust the Warden anymore. With Bhelen he puts you in a position in which you're compromised ethically and politically because you can be exposed and discredited by him at will at that point as an underhanded false document pusher toying with Orzammar's political landscape. The Shaper would know the real estate document as false when it would be presented for enactment, and Harrowmont would surely call for Shaper scrutiny on the matter (if it were ever to come to that), so the Warden is bound to become mistrusted by Orzammar at some point. Thus you serve Bhelen by making yourself vulnerable to his machinations and one of his underhanded thugs, a skank who only Bhelen will make dealings with anymore. Of course, being politically compromised doesn't ultimately require loyalty either, but still...

I just find it curious that we find those documents that implicate Bhelen in the death of his siblings only if Harrowmont asks us to look for them. If Harrowmont has no dealings with Jarvia or operatives in the Carta, how do those documents conveniently show up only then? I know, I know. Plot devices and whatnot...

[luna1124]

Uh Oh I went to Orzammar as female dwarf commoner, there is a problem with who I want to support for king.....Have to play it another way this time and choose Behlen because of my family.

[ejoslin]

Harrowmont doesn't pay the warden for votes; Harrowmont pays the assembly members for votes. See, I always thought that whole thing was interesting -- Bhelen learns of a couple of assembly members who were bribed and uses forgery to turn one against Harrowmont.

It's not that Harrowmont looks clean in that situation -- at least not to me -- but rather that they both are working a corrupt system and Bhelen's way may be more effective. And that the assembly member in question took the forgery and believed it without checking with the Shaperate first does lend a bit of credence to Bhelen's claim that the Shaperate is biased.

Actually, I remember the first time I played being furious that I just didn't have enough information to make a choice so I scoured for little clues. I thought Bhelen was a worm, but I saw the loyalty he inspired in his followers as compared to Harrowmont whose bodyguards fled before he was able to even stand up after Bhelen's men killed one of his. The merchants really thought that Bhelen would do good by increasing trade, and Dust Town was upsetting, to say the least.

And yes, it's easier for a Dwarf Casteless to support Bhelen because of Rica. However, even if you didn't have that, I think it would be easier for the DC anyway because they have every reason to want to crumble the current system.

[Bhryaen]

The two who we're supposed to swindle with forgery had been bribed by Harrowmont? I missed that. They certainly don't let on as such when approached. Denek Helmi- an outright supporter of casteless and lower caste empowerment- seemed decided for Harrowmont on the grounds of his supposed virtues as a leader, contrasting him to Bhelen in terms of the latter's lack of integrity. His acceptance of the forgery seemed more a matter of disgust with the politics of Orzammar than mistrust of the Shaperate. The Daces are more just relieved at the rescue than accusatory of the Shaperate. Why would they suspect that a Warden would be lying anyway?

As much as I'd like an option to murder-knife the Shaper when he goes on about the casteless better off never born, I don't think he's lying when he says his familial claims don't tie him strongly to Harry or Bharry- probably how he got the job given how contentious it can be. More likely is skanky Vartag was just lying about the Shaper's deference to Harrowmont... though I'd suspect the Shaper would. In any case Vartag does admit they're forgeries.

I've come across plenty of dumbsnits in my time who "inspire" loyalty. Street gang thuggery seems all about that- as opposed to governing a city or a civilization. For me having loyal henchmen doesn't necessarily mean they spell the better leader. In fact, what was "inspired" in that scene was bloodletting in the Commons over at worst a minor slight against Bhelen- not a good sign of wise leadership, and fanaticism isn't a sign of competence either... Although whoever you choose, the other "inspires" fanatics on the streets to kill the Warden, so both are equal in this ultimately. In terms of "effectiveness" alone, if bribes are the thing, it seems Harrowmont's better at it- or has more to spend... again not a decisive factor in my choice of which is best as Orzammar's leader.

On trade you don't learn of Harrowmont's slide into isolationism until the epilogue, so you can't know Bhelen is good for trade just because one merchant (who pretty much says they're otherwise the same as candidates, neither a Paragon) thinks Bhelen's chaos will be good for his business. It's always difficult to determine whether the writers are trying to compensate for game-building limitations though: Orzammar is a tiny "city" if you go only by what you encounter, so maybe that one merchant is supposed to be representative of many who would say the same thing. As it is he's only 1 in 5 who expresses it, and even he says he's got himself setup with investments so he'll do fine regardless.

As to Harrowmont looking "clean," I certainly didn't say that. It's just that Dulin's requirement of the Warden is not to deliver forgeries or plant false documents or go intimidate someone or even deliver a bribe. He just asks you to help turn around a couple Provings champions and fight in the Provings in Harry's name- nothing skanky required. (And Baizyl is one of my favorite characters to meet.) This is what makes it easier for a do-gooder to end up supporting the worse choice of two bad ones- not getting their hands dirty but nevertheless delivering maximal devastation to Orzammar's political dynamics.

I think in my first time through Orzammar I did choose the Harrowing, playing a mage who had no trouble informing on Jowan- a lawful neutral sort, I suppose... Never did complete that playthrough...

[ejoslin]

Yes, that was the issue, though. Harrowmont had offered them both property in exchange for their votes -- Bhelen then forged one of the documents to make it look like Harrowmont had offered them the same property which made the noble change her vote from Harrowmont to Bhelen.

ETA: It's a corrupt system, and they both were navigating their way through it.  Harrowmont by using appeasement and bribery, and Bhelen by using blackmail and underhanded deals.  Neither was clean, which is why I used the reactions of the merchants and Dust Town to make my decision.

That Bhelen's men were more loyal to him was my first impression, and it was a strong one as well.  I was repelled by the murder, but appalled that Harrowmont's own men ran before Harrowmont could get up.  

Orzammar was a city at war, and they really needed a strong leader.  

Modifié par ejoslin, 21 juin 2013 - 09:18 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Bhryaen wrote...

The two who we're supposed to swindle with forgery had been bribed by Harrowmont? I missed that. They certainly don't let on as such when approached. Denek Helmi- an outright supporter of casteless and lower caste empowerment- seemed decided for Harrowmont on the grounds of his supposed virtues as a leader, contrasting him to Bhelen in terms of the latter's lack of integrity.

To the best of my memory, Helmi's response was something like "I didn't even want the land, but I knew my family would kill me if I turned it down. Oh well, I guess I'll go inform mother that Harrowmont hasn't bought our vote after all." (There's some before and after, but this is the bit that matters to this conversation.) My understanding is that he honestly thinks Harrowmont is better, he just doesn't have the option of refusing any extra perks that come with voting his conscience. (Is there anyone who doubts he means "my family would kill me" literally?)

His acceptance of the forgery seemed more a matter of disgust with the politics of Orzammar than mistrust of the Shaperate. The Daces are more just relieved at the rescue than accusatory of the Shaperate. Why would they suspect that a Warden would be lying anyway?

Well, if they bothered to remember what they were being promised...

As much as I'd like an option to murder-knife the Shaper when he goes on about the casteless better off never born, I don't think he's lying when he says his familial claims don't tie him strongly to Harry or Bharry- probably how he got the job given how contentious it can be. More likely is skanky Vartag was just lying about the Shaper's deference to Harrowmont... though I'd suspect the Shaper would. In any case Vartag does admit they're forgeries.

I think it's like he says: he's related to everyone in Orzammar.

[Bhryaen]

Yes, I think you've got the right of it about Denek's quote. Hmph. So it actually does come down to a matter of thwarting a bribe with a forgery. I've been interpreting that wrongly as just Denek's dismissiveness about Orzammar politics in general. I mean, it's not completely certain that the land deal was made only recently as a vote-getter. Maybe it was offered even before Trian was killed. But now it does seem like it was just a bribe.

Still, yes, Denek does seem to favor Harrowmont on principle, not as purchased loyalty. Funny, he also refers to Bhelen as the "traditional" choice.

[ejoslin]

Bhelen is traditional because he's the heir of the late king.

ETA: It's been so long since I played this -- I remember talking to the female noble and her sending you to see her father to change his vote.  And then Helmi.  So Bhelen swayed both of them with his forgery, not just one of them.

Part of the issue for me, really, was Bhelen's second was such a slimeball.  Had he been not quite as sleazy, I think Bhelen would have been a bit better portrayed.

Modifié par ejoslin, 22 juin 2013 - 12:27 .

[Bhryaen]

@ejoslin
Whether Orzammar was at war or not seems irrelevant- the same principles apply in both. A strong leader is one that can command justly and win the endorsement or "mandate" of the nation without threats or other coercion. That Harrowmont's entourage didn't consist of more aggressive thugs than Bhelen's hardly decides me in favor of Bhelen. I have no problem with Harrowmont hanging out with scholars and advisors and elders who can't really fight rather than brutes. Clearly he hadn't anticipated the violence Bhelen might bring to bear and didn't hire bodyguards. But this is why it really remains a tough call for me. Harrowmont does come across as the compassionate one with the calm, reasonable tone of one you can trust and who will be able to work with others to make the Treaty forces happen, always speaking as one thrust by Endrin into a bid for power he never anticipated or perhaps wanted. Mature leaders tend to be better and more reliable than brutes. So on a roleplaying basis he looks outwardly to be the right choice... until you look around Orzammar. This still doesn't make Bhelen look any better. It just makes him the better choice of the whopping two we're given by the game.

Actually after electing Harrowmont in a recent playthrough, I was disappointed to find that a plethora of dwarves on the street who had been ambivalent about Harrowmont now were saying things like... gah, I forget, but the general sentiment was one of despair and cynicism. Even Denek Helmi said something to that effect.

Modifié par Bhryaen, 22 juin 2013 - 12:34 .

[Bhryaen]

I can see why Bhelen might be called the "traditional choice," but it's funny because he's obviously not the choice to uphold tradition, whereas Harrowmont unfortunately is, and Denek isn't the greatest defender of traditional dwarven society and politics. I do agree about Vartag though- yet another reason Bhelen comes across as more interested in tyranny than leadership. Would've been interesting if the writers had made Dulin the jerk and Vartag a nice guy.

[ejoslin]

The system is corrupt so no one will be able to win votes without making it seem to be in the best interest of the voter -- that was either through blackmail or bribery. It's a problem with the system itself. And it's a system that requires ruthlessness to get anything done -- a ruthlessness that Harrowmont doesn't have. Eventually he'd run out of money, and it would no longer be in assembly members best interest to go along with him, and they again would just work out of self-interest.

And Orzammar being at war, and losing that war, means that the rich just don't have the luxury to act only in their self interest. What Bhelen does is definitely brutal, but more effective. Trying to rule by compromise in that environment -- I just don't even see how that could happen.

And as I said, it left a strong impression on me that Harrowmont's entourage, which must have included his bodyguards, ran off while he was still on the ground. Maybe that's unfair of me, but it struck me as worrisome when the people who should be most loyal would spare their own skin rather than even wait for their man to stand up. This is a brutal society, and the throne was being contested -- if one of the contenders was going around without bodyguards, then he is being stupid. Bhelen either assassinated his brother and framed his other sibling for it, or he set the wheels in motion for the sibling to commit fratricide. And Harrowmont knew this. Wandering around without bodyguards would be unthinkable.

Modifié par ejoslin, 22 juin 2013 - 01:30 .

[Bhryaen]

Bhelen wasn't walking around the streets of Orzammar butchering people... until then. Harrowmont had only known him to orchestrate the killing of one brother and framing of his other brother- something others could've done (did do) for him, something done some time ago behind the scenes in the Deep Roads, and something done when no eyes were on him. It is fairly established that civil war could happen any moment, however, so bodyguards were in order.

As it happens, watching it again, it seems I was mistaken: Harrowmont does have bodyguards- or what appear to be such. The one is killed with a single blow by Bhelen's loudest thug (someone we never see again), but the way he speaks is not like a Harrowmont guard. He calls, "Handlers! Separate these deshyrs (meaning both Harrowmont and Bhelen entourage members)! I will not have Bhelen inciting a riot!" He doesn't appear to single out Bhelen due to support for Harrowmont so much as due to Bhelen's greater aggressiveness. The shiny-armored guard stands next to Harrowmont in the scene, but if he's not a Harrowmont "handler," who is? Whatever the case, and whatever the violence in Orzammar, street brawls and riots seem to be starting just then, not something normal in Orzammar.

But you're wrong that the other guards run off, leaving Harrowmont alone before he can even get up. The one bodyguard initially standing to the side and behind where the shiny guard was holds his ground entirely, looking like he's sizing up whether he'll need to do battle, clearly surprised at the resort to brawl standards among deshyrs in the streets, but the other not only holds his ground, but also helps Harrowmont to his feet. Then all three simultaneously take off together. I'm not knocking your impression, but I'm getting a different one seeing that scene.

Another part of the scene was the large number of bystanders, most of which having the deshyr staves, so there were also plenty of witnesses- witnesses from the nobility and likely Assembly- another reason to not suspect Bhelen and his "seconds" of readiness at that moment to immediately resort to violence in the street. Surprise, surprise- Bhelen's a brute.

Yes, Orzammar's society is brutal systemically. This is an endemic problem for the dwarves- in fact, the chief reason for their decline, the inability to remain united against darkspawn and the constancy of loss to violence. I'm not sure how this somehow warrants backing the most aggressive thug, however. In small street gangs, there is generally nothing but brutality that establishes predominance- or in any case simple brutality is sufficient. (Not efficient, but sufficient.) In the governance of cities that brutality only breaks down the ability of the society to function on a large scale, as Bhelen's brutality already has the city at a standstill when we arrive. So I suppose it depends then on how one views Orzammar- as just another gangland turfwar territory where you essentially may as well endorse whichever thug is going to prevail, or as an ancient civilization with laws, culture, taverns, education, and the sophistication of advanced social organization which requires a more capable leadership that can appreciate and attend to such concerns and institutions. I tend to favor promoting leadership of the latter sort regarding Orzammar- despite how commonplace thuggery can be, at least if my characters are looking out for Orzammar's best interests. Orzammar may be suffering from rampant fratricide, but it doesn't stand as a gigantic bastion of it. Cities only stand despite it. There are Dagnas and Baizyls and Garins and Deneks and all sorts of non-thug citizens who are living decent lives quite apart from the violence and demonstrating the neglected side of what remains of dwarven civilization in DAO... And it's they who I choose a leader for... albeit between two ultimately insufficient candidates.

I also don't see the opposite of lamebrained thuggery as simple compromise. Bhelen was out for the jugular. There was no compromise to be had with him. But beating him doesn't require more lamebrained thuggery. There are more tools available than that. Alas, Harrowmont doesn't have the leadership stature to win the required majority of the Assembly by persuasion and example... and I attribute this partly to his having been only an advisor his whole life, but also to the weakness of the forces he was seeking to rally- i.e., regressive nobles reticent to needed change. Bribery is just as traditional in Orzammar as oppressing the casteless. And ruthlessness against the latter is something Harrowmont excels at if you give him the Anvil. If you're going to say that the whole system is corrupt and both candidates are immersed in it, there's no point saying Harrowmont isn't ruthless enough... It's just that Bhelen's ruthlessness involves willingness to eliminate his entire family and former advisors- and anyone else seeming to be in the way- so he can take the throne. Harrowmont's ruthlessness involves willingness to eliminate the entirety of the occupants of Dust Town to further the cause of one portion of the Assembly.

Still, I can imagine a different Assembly member rising to that occasion to call for reforms similar to Bhelen's and yet who also knows how to rally people to that cause and orchestrate them against Bhelen, winning away Bhelen's supporters among the Assembly as well as some of Harrowmont's, possibly even avoiding a violent confrontation- other than perhaps with Bhelen and Vartag themselves at some point- particularly given the imperative of meeting the darkspawn threat. My returned DN would certainly have relished the opportunity... if the writers hadn't written him out of the running arbitrarily...

[Bardox9]

My first play through I chose Harrowmont simply because Bhelen is an evil little ****. It seemed like the right choice, but after seeing what Harrowmont does as king in the epilogue it is clear that he is too weak to be a King.

Bhelen might be an jerk and all around horrible person, but by Orzammar standards he's not that bad. The dwarf commoner origin gives you a better idea of what Orzammar is really like. For all concered, Bhelen is the better King. A strong leader and visionary.

Besides, Harrowmont is old and was probably going to die soon anyway. So Bhelen for king I say.

Modifié par Bardox9, 23 juin 2013 - 06:13 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Bardox9 wrote...

My first play through I chose Harrowmont simply because Bhelen is an evil little ****. It seemed like the right choice, but after seeing what Harrowmont does as king in the epilogue it is clear that he is too weak to be a King.

You're not alone, I did the same thing my first playthrough. Now, I half expected a trick ending, so I made an extra save file at the point right before I had to commit. But then I didn't use it because the trick doesn't become obvious until the epilogue. (I learned of this before I beat the game, but after I'd done more of the game than I felt like replaying over this.)

Bhelen might be an jerk and all around horrible person, but by Orzammar standards he's not that bad. The dwarf commoner origin gives you a better idea of what Orzammar is really like. For all concered, Bhelen is the better King. A strong leader and visionary.

Visionary, yes. Strong leader... I can honestly say he's far and away the strongest of all the candidates we are given.

Besides, Harrowmont is old and was probably going to die soon anyway. So Bhelen for king I say.

You're right, he does die soon. Unless you give him the golems. And as Bhryaen has pointed out, that ending is bad enough that I prefer Harrowmont's death.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 25 juin 2013 - 06:31 .

[Ridirkulous]

It all typically depends on how I decide to play it. I usually do side with Harrowmont though. My wardens more often then not have no desire to influence dwarven politics. Bhelen is definitely the better ruler if your goal is to improve Dwarven society; it's just not the Grey Wardens' responsibility to do so.

Sure, the casteless have it bad under Harrowmont. The squalor they live in is absolutely terrible, but they are not being forced to live there. The dusters know darn well that they can pack it all up and leave to seek life out on the surface. Yet all the dwarves, including the casteless, refuse to do so. Those dusters prefer to live in that dump because of a tradition that views them as nothing more then a blight on their kind. So what if they do turn their back to the stone? The ancestors have done absolutely nothing but exploit and abuse them. If they would rather stay and be subject to such punishment then so be it.

As for Bhelen, I think it's best for the Wardens to remain neutral. They were already driven out of Ferelden once, and the ramifications for supporting a dictator could be rather dangerous. Bhelen is too much a wild card and could easily turn against neighboring Ferelden and Orlais. It's even mentioned in one of the epilogue slides that an exalted march against the dwarves could happen given to their religious intolerance. A dwarven army plus golems would be incredibly destructive no matter who the enemy is. Bhelen could then easily use such an event to justify an offensive to claim human lands.

That said I really just think it's best not to rock the boat too much. My Wardens also typically don't resort to underhanded tactics in which Bhelen does. If Harrowmont is dirty, and he probably is like most people with power, he at least appears to be straightforward with you. He's also the traditionalist of the two and it's less likely to cause political turmoil if you support him. If Orzammar falls due to his incompetence then that is a dwarven problem. If the dwarves would rather stubbornly stay put under the Frostback Mountains then that is their decision. I don't think it is the wise choice, but it's not my decision to make.

Modifié par Ridirkulous, 28 juin 2013 - 05:31 .

[Bhryaen]

With all due respect to the surface dwarves, the Dust Town casteless don't remain there due to preferring it over surface life. They've all grown up there and know no other life. If you play the DC Origin and interact with the surface dwarf merchant in the commons who articulates the same "you could just leave" lines, you find that the casteless have been told that life on the surface is virtually impossible for a dwarf- that or a fate worse than death- and that casteless status is retained up there anyway, so the casteless remain because it's the devil they know. Surfacers aren't exactly circulating through Dust Town to inform people of their options or offer them viable opportunities, so how would they know otherwise, even if they were able to trust a foreign land? Also imagine the exodus of casteless (and also lower caste) refugees turning up on the surface looking for work, homes, and enclaves. (Actually it's hard to imagine how it isn't happening already, but still.) They don't remain in Dust Town due to any Duster tradition. They remain there due to ignorance and the entrenchment of despair. And the solution ultimately isn't mass migration. It's dwarves resolving their social inequities and dissolving the caste system.

That's why most of the time my characters go with "straightforward" Harrowmont at first until, 1., they visit Dust Town and, 2., Harrowmont speaks openly disparagingly of casteless there to reveal a glimpse of what it would entail to give him the Crown. Then they figure the only way to bring about a society not on the verge of civil war (and thus able to provide troops) is to promote reforms. That or they just go with their conscience since my characters aren't all perfect Gray Warden politicians regardless.

Also the Exalted March threat happens due to a new Mage Circle built in Orzammar- i.e., due to tensions between the Chantry and independent mages, not due to "dwarven religious intolerance." Orzammar isn't intolerant of the Chantry. It just has its own religion and the appeal of the surfacer religion among dwarves is scant.

As to not "rocking the boat," you pretty much have no easy alternative. Either you rely on the kindly Harrowmont whose rule is based on bribery of and otherwise catering to nobility whose politics are bringing down the city or else rely on a supposed reformer who comes across through his associates and methods as a complete scumbag. One way or another the Gray Wardens must push Orzammar on one or the other side of a socio-historical brink that will risk instability. Political turmoil is guaranteed either way.

And the fate of Orzammar can affect the whole of Thedas. A weakened Orzammar that succumbs to the darkspawn will make the base of the darkspawn under the surface that much larger and more powerful, and taking dwarves out of the roster of potential Thedan allies means a weaker struggle against the next blight (or whatever else Thedas faces). Not to mention the experience Orzammar dwarves bring regarding fighting the darkspawn. Calling it a "dwarven problem" and advising abandoning Orzammar doesn't exactly address the issue.

[Secretlyapotato]

On my canon character I chose Bhelen because I cheated the first time and looked up that he would be better. I just roleplay it as my City Elf sympathizing with the casteless and overhearing stuff Bhelen planned for them.

On another half of characters I choose Harrowmont because he's nicer, and I choose Harrowmont and Bhelen for the Dwarf Noble and Commoner respectively. (Or I would have if I ever got that far with the Dwarf Noble)

[mousestalker]

Bhelen is clearly the better choice. After all, he'd stab his own brother to serve you better...

Harrowmount is more of a traditional, typical politician