127 réponses à ce sujet

[CmdrFenix83]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

Ulicus wrote...

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

And to think they bigged the collectors up as the "greatest threat ever faced".

Not really.

TIM: Humanity is facing the greatest threat of our brief existence.
Shepard: The Reapers.

Really.

That comment is irrelevent. In ME2s marketing build up, they tried to present the villains of ME2 (the collectors) as an even greater threat than the first game. Like many things in ME2 when it comes to playing, it doesnt match up.

You dont at any point in ME2 face any actual real reapers. Its just collectors and a stupid Terminator wannabe "human reaper larvae". I wouldnt have a problem if this was highlighted before that the major, and more dangerous threat of the first game takes a backseat role, but like I said, it wasnt.

Using this logic, that means the Geth were the actual enemies of the first game.  The Reapers are just the looming threat on the horizon right now with the Geth/Collectors being their attempts to find a way into the galaxy.

[brgillespie]

Why did the Collector ship just sit there and take the shots from the GARDIAN cannons? Why didn't it just vaporize the cannons with its ultra-cool Beam of Death that crushed Normandy SR1 so easily? Why'd it just take off and leave some big-ass burn craters from its main engines?



The Collectors whole point was to do their best to leave no trace of the colonies or the colonies' abductors. Yeah, their kinetic barriers failed, but only AFTER the cannons had been firing on the ship for quite a few minutes.



As to the danger that the Collectors' military might posed... *shrugs* That was a gigantic ship graveyard surrounding the Collectors' base.

[Burdokva]

Sometimes it seems people avoid dialogue and in-game reference just to find plot holes...

First, the Collectors obviously have more than one ship. EDI specifically states, during the Collector Ship Mission, that she "compared the ship's profile to known Collector signatures"  (or something similar). Also, there's certainly room for more cruiser type vessels to remain docked at the Collector base. The ship the SR-2 destroyed at the end of Mass Effect 2 was probably a stand-by cruiser just in case anything slipped by the Occulus defence drones.

Second, the Normandy SR-2 is a ridiculously overpowered ship for it's size and certainly the most advanced frigate in the Galaxy. If it can even be counted as a frigate, because being nearly twice as large as the SR-1 it's probably closer to an Alliance/Citadel cruiser type vessel and probably carries more firepower. It's certainly far more agile. Which brings me to third,

during the space battle in the suicide mission of Mass Effect 2 the SR-2 didn't get hit once by the main cannon of the Collector cruiser. The fancy "Silaris" armor upgrade (which is top-of-the line armor fitted to the most advanced dreadnoughts) held off the fire of the Occulus drones, fighter/bomber class vessels. Joker did his best to avoid the fire of the cruiser, which would have probably ripped the SR-2 apart even with upgraded armor - remember that the original Normandy was still well protected for a frigate and the first hit crippled it.   

Given how much slower the Alliance cruisers and dreadnoughts are (and that they carry armor of poorer quality than the upgraded SR-2) the Collectors main guns would shred them with no problem.

And last, the Collectors have Reaper tech and Reaper IFF codes, so they can manipulate the mass relays. They can enter Sol System, close off all relays (and this time there won't be a Shepard to open them in the last minutes for reinforcements) and wipe out Earth's defenses even if they have something like a dozen ships. How much defense do you think Earth has, given that the combat in Mass Effect's universe is centered around controlling key mass relays rather than planet point-defense and that in-game it's implied several times that the Alliance navy is very overstretched after the battle of the Citadel?  

Modifié par Burdokva, 21 février 2010 - 08:36 .

[The-OC]

I dont get that you walk into the main chambre and some one in your team assumes "Hey they got alot of pods, i guess they must want to attack earth just because there ship is large enough to fit the whole population in" And the upgraded cannon was the same type that Soverin used because it was reversed engenierd by Turians from the wreckage. Theres no reason to assume that the Alliance have the Thranix Cannon installed on any ship because it would be too exspencive.

Of course the guardian cannons do eventually bring the collecter ship sheild down but depending on how long it takes to fight the bug thing it could take hundreds of hits or justt a few

Modifié par The-OC, 21 février 2010 - 08:51 .

[adam_grif]

You guys saying that the collectors would get wiped out by the human fleet nee to recall that:

And you need to recall that with zero upgrades, no Thanix Cannon, no Silaris Armor, and no upgraded kinetic barriers, the Normandy still annihilates the Collector vessel with ease.

As to the danger that the Collectors' military might posed... *shrugs* That was a gigantic ship graveyard surrounding the Collectors' base.

Ships without the IFF drift out of the "safe zone" and get pwned by intense radiation. Presumably some of the wreckage drifts around a bit over the time it's been there.

And the upgraded cannon was the same type that Soverin used because it was reversed engenierd by Turians. Theres no reason to assume that the Alliance have the Thranix Cannon installed on any ship because it would be too exspencive. Convential weapons may have any effect on Collector shields.

Oh come on, read the thread before you post things that have been brought up before. Without the Thanix cannon, the Normandy still wins decisively, it just gets closer to make the shot.

First, the Collectors obviously have more than one ship. EDI specifically states, during the Collector Ship Mission, that she "compared the ship's profile to known Collector signatures" (or something similar). Also, there's certainly room for more cruiser type vessels to remain docked at the Collector base. The ship the SR-2 destroyed at the end of Mass Effect 2 was probably a stand-by cruiser just in case anything slipped by the Occulus defence drones.

You only see one ship in the entire game, every time it's brought up it's mentioned that the Cruiser "matches the signature from data taken from the normandy" etc. Then at the end, there's the offhand comment from Joker about how an old friend is coming to greet them.



It's possible that they had more than one ship, but it is certainly not obvious that they do.

Second, the Normandy SR-2 is a ridiculously overpowered ship for it's size and certainly the most advanced frigate in the Galaxy. If it can even be counted as a frigate, because being nearly twice as large as the SR-1 it's probably closer to an Alliance/Citadel cruiser type vessel and probably carries more firepower. It's certainly far more agile. Which brings me to third,

No, it only has "cruiser level firepower" after you upgun it with the Thannix. We have no metric to determine how powerful the normal guns are, and the only time we've seen cruisers in the series is the final battle in ME1 where they did jack to Sovereign's barriers but seemed to kill geth ships quite quickly.

Joker did his best to avoid the fire of the cruiser, which would have probably ripped the SR-2 apart even with upgraded armor - remember that the original Normandy was still well protected for a frigate and the first hit crippled it.

This isn't unusual in MEverse. The only time we've seen any ship stand up to sustained fire from other warships is Sovereign and the Destiny Ascension. Every time a geth or alliance or Turian ship is hit, they usually explode straight away.



The reason the collector ship is unusually dangerous isn't because it's very powerful, but because it has powerful beam weapons, specifically, which are more accurate at range.

Given how much slower the Alliance cruisers and dreadnoughts are (and that they carry armor of poorer quality than the upgraded SR-2) the Collectors main guns would shred them with no problem.

There's no way to tell, but even if it did, they don't have an armada. At most they'd have a dozen ships, and we only have one confirmed in the game. Apparently all it takes to kill them is a cruiser hit or so.

And last, the Collectors have Reaper tech and Reaper IFF codes, so they can manipulate the mass relays.

Being reaper proxies doesn't imply having unlimited access to reaper tech. Case in point: the collector cruiser obliterated by a few hits from the standard SR2 armament. You have no idea whether or not they can do that, they have never demonstrated that capability.

[Trenrade]

the collectors simply didn't have enough firepower, if they even tried abducting all 11.4 billion people on earth, assuming they are all human (which I doubt, there are probably Aliens who live on earth as well), they would induct the wrath of every species in cit space. not a good idea if you ask me.

[ZennExile]

The answer to the OP is they could not without the rest of the reapers or help of some insanely powerful outside force.



The rest of this is kinda silly. This is one of the biggest plot holes in the game. Not really any logical way to defend it. They left out why this makes sense. Maybe it was on purpose because they wanted it to be mysterious or to use it as some kind of twist later in ME3 (like there's a baby reaper for every species in the galaxy not just humans) We don't know.



If you're going to take random guesses about it though maybe be honest about the source and foundation of the theory as being the crap cannon you carry around though. People have a hard time doing that here.

[The-OC]

adam_grif wrote...

And the upgraded cannon was the same type that Soverin used because it was reversed engenierd by Turians. Theres no reason to assume that the Alliance have the Thranix Cannon installed on any ship because it would be too exspencive. Convential weapons may have any effect on Collector shields.

Oh come on, read the thread before you post things that have been brought up before. Without the Thanix cannon, the Normandy still wins decisively, it just gets closer to make the shot.

Well thats the writers and developers fault. The Normandy is still more advanced then any alliance ship upgrades or not. 

[adam_grif]

The-OC wrote...

adam_grif wrote...

And the upgraded cannon was the same type that Soverin used because it was reversed engenierd by Turians. Theres no reason to assume that the Alliance have the Thranix Cannon installed on any ship because it would be too exspencive. Convential weapons may have any effect on Collector shields.

Oh come on, read the thread before you post things that have been brought up before. Without the Thanix cannon, the Normandy still wins decisively, it just gets closer to make the shot.

Well thats the writers and developers fault. The Normandy is still more advanced then any alliance ship upgrades or not. 

I'm sure there have been some new Alliance ships layed down in the 2 years since ME1, but regardless, the Normandy is only "advanced" in the sense that its stealth systems are state of the art. Everything else is just the same engineering as other Alliance ships in different forms.

None of the Normandy's advancements make it more lethal than any other alliance ship of similar mass, except that it can sneak up on ships more effectively. The collectors can apparently see them regardless, so that one advantage is lost. It's at the high end of frigate firepower.

[Default137]

Burdokva wrote...

Sometimes it seems people avoid dialogue and in-game reference just to find plot holes...

First, the Collectors obviously have more than one ship. EDI specifically states, during the Collector Ship Mission, that she "compared the ship's profile to known Collector signatures"  (or something similar). Also, there's certainly room for more cruiser type vessels to remain docked at the Collector base. The ship the SR-2 destroyed at the end of Mass Effect 2 was probably a stand-by cruiser just in case anything slipped by the Occulus defence drones.

Second, the Normandy SR-2 is a ridiculously overpowered ship for it's size and certainly the most advanced frigate in the Galaxy. If it can even be counted as a frigate, because being nearly twice as large as the SR-1 it's probably closer to an Alliance/Citadel cruiser type vessel and probably carries more firepower. It's certainly far more agile. Which brings me to third,

during the space battle in the suicide mission of Mass Effect 2 the SR-2 didn't get hit once by the main cannon of the Collector cruiser. The fancy "Silaris" armor upgrade (which is top-of-the line armor fitted to the most advanced dreadnoughts) held off the fire of the Occulus drones, fighter/bomber class vessels. Joker did his best to avoid the fire of the cruiser, which would have probably ripped the SR-2 apart even with upgraded armor - remember that the original Normandy was still well protected for a frigate and the first hit crippled it.   

Given how much slower the Alliance cruisers and dreadnoughts are (and that they carry armor of poorer quality than the upgraded SR-2) the Collectors main guns would shred them with no problem.

And last, the Collectors have Reaper tech and Reaper IFF codes, so they can manipulate the mass relays. They can enter Sol System, close off all relays (and this time there won't be a Shepard to open them in the last minutes for reinforcements) and wipe out Earth's defenses even if they have something like a dozen ships. How much defense do you think Earth has, given that the combat in Mass Effect's universe is centered around controlling key mass relays rather than planet point-defense and that in-game it's implied several times that the Alliance navy is very overstretched after the battle of the Citadel?  

LOGIC IS NOT WELCOME HERE.

Just to reiterate that last point however.

Earth most likely has little to no defenses whatsoever, right now its situated in a very safe zone, and its relay exit is fairly well protected, also, due to how space works, if there was a fleet, chances are it, would be blockading the exit to the relay, to make sure nothing got in, as thats the only way in to the solar system, they would feel fairly safe about that. Thing is, the fleet is stretched super thin due to the size of space, as well as just how few ships we still have due to limited resources and the Citadel fight, so more likely then not, what few ships we do have are not guarding Earth right now.

Also, there would be no ground defenses at all, there would honestly be no point, and they'd take up room, and if we ever had to face a civilization that could fly here on spaceships, chances are very high they could wipe out our fragile athmosphere with a single shot, probably without even trying, as such, defending EARTH would be the stupidest thing we could possibly do, and most of our forces as said would be guarding the Mass Relay exit, or would be on Jump Zero.

Really, though, it would be very easy for the Collectors to harvest a large swath of Earth, they have Reaper tech, and its implied they know how to modify the Relays, which is why they got around so easily, all they would have to do is jump to our Solar System, and then lock down the Relay, most of the fleet would be on the other side of the Relay, thinking it was the only way in, and would suddenly be able to come back to help out, and then the Collectors would just tear through what was left at Jump Zero, then move torwards Earth, and take their prize.

[Looy]

Maybe thats what the baby reaper is for.

[adam_grif]

so more likely then not, what few ships we do have are not guarding Earth right now.

Unless you have evidence to contradict it, the codex entry stating that First Fleet is guarding Earth stands, period. Vague inferences based on dialogue about how they're stretched doesn't mean anything unless they went on to say "... and they removed First Fleet from guarding the Charon Relay".

[Azazelbishop]

Like all frigates, the Normandy is equipped with GARDIAN point defense lasers, kinetic barriers, and a spinal mass accelerator cannon. It may also be equipped with advanced Javelin dual disruptor torpedoes.

[druidofwarp]

Just gonna run over some quick points. The Thanix is advanced for all we know no other ship has it. Also the Normandy does not school the Collector ship unupgraded it takes heavy damage, and is lucky to be agile enough to avoid the collector ship's main gun which most of the larger ships may not have been able to do. Also its unupgraded weapons are still experimental Javelin disruptor torpedoes mounted on a handful of ships. Plus there is EDI who is instrumental in defeating Harbinger and is unique.



The Normandy is unique in almost every aspect so it cannot be compared to standard cruisers/frigates.



You would also underestimate the Collector's technological advantage. If they can manipulate mass relays who is to say they can't link one directly to Earth and bypass the Human's already stretched fleet. We have no idea how long exactly it takes to travel via mass effect fields(iirc) a difference of hours or day(s) is huge(especially when organizing a fleet to fly to Earth). We also don't know how long it takes the Collector's to harvest a world.



Also for those saying that the Collector ship would have no chance versus Earth's defenses surprise is a powerful element to have. Countless hopeless battles/wars have been won by it.



Bottom line if Bioware wanted Earth harvested it was going to happen. Perhaps via deus ex machina or some other hidden technological/biological/biotic advantage that had yet to be revealed.



Just my 2 cents.

[Default137]

adam_grif wrote...

so more likely then not, what few ships we do have are not guarding Earth right now.

Unless you have evidence to contradict it, the codex entry stating that First Fleet is guarding Earth stands, period. Vague inferences based on dialogue about how they're stretched doesn't mean anything unless they went on to say "... and they removed First Fleet from guarding the Charon Relay".

"Based at Arcturus Station, the First Fleet guards the mass relay
connecting to Earth and serves as a reactionary force able to respond to
any attack across three different clusters. "

Not guarding Earth, its guarding the relay in.

Let me desribe this better using an example.

You are tasked with defending a very important politician, nobody really wants to kill him, but if he dies, its basically game over for your country as a whole, so you keep him protected, basically, you lock him in a room with no windows, and only one door in, and set all the guards you have to defend that door no matter what, just to make sure though, you also have a guard inside the room, but he is getting kind of old, and only has a crappy pistol.

In case you didn't figure out yet, Earth is the politician, and the guards are the first fleet.

Now here is the problem.

The Collectors, as agents of the Reapers, have at the very least the ability to work with the Relays to change where they head, this is mentioned as rumors several times in game, and partially confirmed later in the game, as they only have one Relay in their system, yet can appear anywhere and any time. Because of this, the Collectors could literally appear at Pluto while the First Fleet sits at the exit, and just sail on by the the prize, without even have to engage them once. Even scarier, they might have access to the same thing Sovereign did in that they can shut down a Relay, or make it unresponsive to a specific exit, meaning that they could attack Jump Zero on the way, kill everyone, and the First Fleet would be unable to return because the relay was shut off.

[Azazelbishop]

Kinetic barrier shields changed starship battles from short, vicious bloodbaths to extended, indecisive slugging matches. Only the main gun of a dreadnought could punch a mass accelerator slug through the barriers of an opposing dreadnought. This changed with the development of the fighter-launched mass disruptor torpedo, a short-ranged weapon that can penetrate kinetic barriers to destroy their projector assemblies.

[DuffyMJ]

You people will complain about anything, my God.



Need I remind you that the British Empire insisted that Singapore was an impregnable fortress and that the Japanese managed to siege and capture it in like two weeks? Or that the mainland US was supposedly protected by vast oceans and could never be attacked, but was practically brought to its knees by a couple of CIVILIAN AIRLINES used as suicide weapons? Or that Roman imperial army supposedly could never be defeated, but was obliterated at Adrianople? Or that New Orleans could supposedly never hold against the same British army that beat Napolean, but it did? Or that the Vietkong could supposedly never defeat a first world superpower's army, and it did?



I mean no offense, but what rock were you born under that you actually buy into assumptions of invincibility and security? Security is a myth, one that's been used to make trillions subservient to powerful people since people were cave painting.

[Aradace]

The_mango55 wrote...

Maybe this has been asked before, but can someone please explain to me how exactly the Collectors plan to attack Earth?

They have 1 ship, a ship that was taken out by the upgraded Normandy, which has AT MOST cruiser level firepower. The Alliance has 6 dreadnoughts, dozens of cruisers, and hundreds of frigates, plus the large nations of earth likely have their own small navies.

I'm not seeing how the single collector ship could stand up to one dreadnought, let alone the entire human fleet.

My guess is that they planned on attacking Earth with that single ship yes...However, you have to realize that they didnt think a single ship such as the Normandy would have the attack strength to take out one of their ships.  So you have to assume after that, the Reapers are just going to attack it full on themselves lol.

[adam_grif]

Not guarding Earth, its guarding the relay in.

Close enough, Arcturus prime directly connects to the Charon relay, which is the Earth relay. Intrarelay travel is nearly instantaneous, and the journey from Charon to Earth, going at the rate of 12 lightyears/day (the given "typical speed" for FTL), will take less than 10 seconds.



The longest part of the journey, by far, is mobilizing the ships.

The Collectors, as agents of the Reapers, have at the very least the ability to work with the Relays to change where they head,

Source please.

this is mentioned as rumors several times in game,

Which rumors are they exactly.

and partially confirmed later in the game, as they only have one Relay in their system, yet can appear anywhere and any time.

Their relay is a one way trip to Omega, and there's another relay in Omega which connects to the rest of the system. Appear anywhere at any time? Why do you say that? There are no FTL sensors, the whole appearing out of FTL thing is standard fare.

Even scarier, they might have access to the same thing Sovereign did in that they can shut down a Relay

When the hell did Sovereign shut down a relay? The relay network is not on remote access to all reapers otherwise the plot to Mass Effect 1 would have been redundant in the extreme. The Citadel controls the whole network, not individual reapers. Neither reapers nor collectors have demonstrated the ability to do any of the things you're stating.

Like all frigates, the Normandy is equipped with GARDIAN point defense lasers, kinetic barriers, and a spinal mass accelerator cannon. It may also be equipped with advanced Javelin dual disruptor torpedoes.

Digging up quotes from the SR1 when the discussion is about the SR2? classy.



Here is some info from the SR2, you know, meaning it's relevant:

Personal upgrades are numerous: the airframe could support additional armor and an axial mass accelerator,

In case you're not in the know, "axial mass accelerators" are ones strapped to the middle aiming forwards, where the Thanix gun is.



The SR1 had an Axial mass accelerator, but the SR2 didn't, implying that if it had any at all, they were not mounted on the centre. If they weren't mounted on the centre, then they were on the wings, which fits perfectly with what we see.



You think they were disruptor torpedos??????



First of all, the SR2 doesn't even have them. They have Javelin launchers, which are described as follows:

The torpedoes are fired on converging trajectories, and detonate in a precisely timed sequence that allows the dark energy emitted by their warheads to resonate. This magnifies the resulting space-time warp effects.

The fact that this is not a disruptor or javelin torpedo should be incredibly obvious from the fact that it has no warhead anywhere (which disruptor torpedoes had in the ME1 cutscene....) and looks pretty much identical to the handheld mass accelerator weapons being fired, with the blue glowy trail.



But in addition, those two so called "torpedos" in the image are not only not traveling on convergent trajectories, they're moving away from each other.



I repeat: We saw disruptor torps in ME1, they look nothing like that.

[The_mango55]

Size disparity between Normandy and Cruisers www.youtube.com/watch

Evidence for 300 crew members on cruisers www.youtube.com/watch

Javelins are disruptor torps. They are mounted on the wings of frigates. If the normandy's weapons are supposed to be MA rounds then the animators messed it up (which wouldn't be the first time, the entire end sequence of ME1 with those slow moving missiles was screwed up) and they should have been coming from the center of the ship.

Modifié par The_mango55, 22 février 2010 - 12:03 .

[Schneidend]

The Alliance is spread thin, and it's likely that very few ships are protecting Earth itself. Moreover, the Collectors can jam communications and destroy things before anybody is the wiser. They could infiltrate the Local Cluster and launch a swift, sudden strike on an extremely densely populated area on Earth. They'd be gone before any kind of counter-offensive could be mounted, much less arrive.

[Tleining]

not sure if this was mentioned before: The Collectors always find people willing to work for them. Giving someone lots of money or resources to release a virus on earth/arcturus could basically disable all defences.

[Kristofer1]

i dont even recall this line when do they say it?

[Shockwave81]

Haven't read all of the other posts, but it's possible that the Collectors would have harvested humans from Earth during or after the main Reaper invasion.



I don't think being annihilated was part of their plan.



I'm done thinking about "maybe" or "what if". BioWare should have done their job properly instead of pushing ME2 out the door like a half dressed hooker for all to see.

[adam_grif]

Size disparity between Normandy and Cruisers

That's the same cutscene I posted screenshots from There are no direct comparisons, the closest we get is at the start where, as I said, they don't look even twice the size of the SR1. Maybe it's just a bad angle, but the only other time they're on screen with anything again, it still only looks maybe twice the length at best.



This puts the SR2 on length terms. But that said, the SR2 is very thin and not very tall. The cruisers are built like bricks, with far more volume for its length. This may explain the 300 - 40 crew disparity, although 300 still seems high for a cruiser. I honestly wouldn't expect it to need more than the same 40 of the Normandy given the amount of systems that can be automated (modern spacecraft have like 3 crew despite their size).

and they should have been coming from the center of the ship.

No, as I posted above, the SR2 does not have an Axial mass accelerator unless you give it the Thanix guns. If it has any of them at all, they therefore must be wing mounted.

f the normandy's weapons are supposed to be MA rounds then the animators messed it up (which wouldn't be the first time, the entire end sequence of ME1 with those slow moving missiles was screwed up)

Yep, they screwed the Citadel battle cut-scene bad.



... but if you're claiming that the disruptor torps from ME1 cutscenes aren't a valid comparison to the visual effects in the cutscene in 2, then you likewise can't claim that it's not a mass accelerator just because it doesn't look like the little pidly things that were passed off as mass accelerators in the ME1 cutscene.



Yes the Javelin is a disruptor torp based system, but the point is that they're only supposed to be effective when used fired on converging trajectories at the same time so their effects are magnified.



They aren't used like that in the ME2 cutscene, and if that's the case and they were disruptor torps, one can conclude that a single fighter is capable of totally destroying an advanced collector cruiser in one strike.



... which is far worse in terms of dissonance with what it's supposed to be like than a nearly cruiser sized frigate blowing it up with its main gun.