I forget where I read this, it was either here, or the wiki, but I can't stop thinking about it.
For the joining ritual, you need a drop of Archdemon blood.
In order to kill an archdemon you need a Gray Warden
In order to make a Gray Warden, you need the joining ritual.
ect.. ect...
Can anyone think of a solution to this?
Paradox
Débuté par
Jackimole
, févr. 21 2010 02:28
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#2
Posté 21 février 2010 - 02:30
Kryyptehk
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You do not need to kill the archdemon to get its blood. Someone could have gotten its blood some other way.
#3
Posté 21 février 2010 - 02:30
Caozen
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Are you asking how the first Grey Wardens were brought to being or something?
#4
Posté 21 février 2010 - 02:31
Jackimole
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Caozen wrote...
Are you asking how the first Grey Wardens were brought to being or something?
Yes
#5
Posté 21 février 2010 - 02:32
Daerog
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Bleed the archdemon dry and have a lot saved in a vault filled with ice and magic runes to preserve it all. Just need a little bit, maybe just a drop, for the ritual.
I think the first Grey Wardens just ate darkspawn or whatever to get their resistance to the taint.
I think the first Grey Wardens just ate darkspawn or whatever to get their resistance to the taint.
#6
Posté 21 février 2010 - 02:33
Jackimole
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Kryyptehk wrote...
You do not need to kill the archdemon to get its blood. Someone could have gotten its blood some other way.
How? In the beggining, when the narator describes the first blight, it sounds as if everyone is losing horribly. Also, how was so much blood collected, to create an army of Gray Wardens, without killing the demon?
#7
Posté 21 février 2010 - 02:34
Crippledcarny
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Because it's known that if the archdemon is "killed" it will just jump to a darkspawn body and be reborn, unless it's killed by a gray warden, then it can be assumed that the first archdemon was killed a few times before it actually died. Meaning there was a lot of blood they could have picked up.
#8
Posté 21 février 2010 - 02:34
Jackimole
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DaerogTheDhampir wrote...
Bleed the archdemon dry and have a lot saved in a vault filled with ice and magic runes to preserve it all. Just need a little bit, maybe just a drop, for the ritual.
I think the first Grey Wardens just ate darkspawn or whatever to get their resistance to the taint.
Eating Darkspawn drove Ruck insane, plus it's poisonous...
#9
Posté 21 février 2010 - 02:37
Jackimole
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Crippledcarny wrote...
Because it's known that if the archdemon is "killed" it will just jump to a darkspawn body and be reborn, unless it's killed by a gray warden, then it can be assumed that the first archdemon was killed a few times before it actually died. Meaning there was a lot of blood they could have picked up.
Part 4: Griffons Take Flight
"Founded at Weisshaupt Fortress in the Anderfels, the Grey Wardens offered humanity hope in its darkest hour. Veterans of decades of battles with the darkspawn came together, and the best among them pledged to do whatever was necessary to stem the tide of darkness that swept across the land. These great humans, elves, and dwarves pooled their knowledge of the enemy and formed a united front to finally put a stop to the archdemon’s rampage.
And stop it they did. Ballads are still told today of the first Grey Warden charge into the waves of darkspawn at the city of Nordbotten, each Warden facing 10, 20 darkspawn at a time. Squadrons of Grey Wardens mounted on their mighty griffons, soaring through the blackened skies and battling the terrible archdemon with spear and spell. Oh, what a sight it must have been!
Incredibly, the Grey Wardens won that first battle. They raised their arms in victory, and suddenly there was hope. The Grey Wardens led the lands of men and the last stalwart defenders of the dwarven halls against the hordes of the archdemon Dumat for the next 100 years, gaining and losing ground but never backing away. They recruited whoever possessed the skill and strength to raise their banner from all over Thedas, making no distinction between elven slave or human nobleman. Finally, nearly two centuries after the first Old God rose from the earth, the Grey Wardens assembled the armies of men and dwarves at the Battle of Silent Fields. It was then that Dumat was finally slain and the First Blight ended. The Tevinter Imperium would face a new challenge with the coming of the prophet Andraste, and thoughts of the Blight grew distant. With their defeat, the darkspawn were considered no longer a threat, but with the wisdom of hindsight, we all know that conceit proved to be hopeful and foolish indeed. The task of the Grey Wardens was far from over.
—An excerpt from Tales of the Destruction of Thedas, by Brother Genitivi, Chantry Scholar
^^^^Taken from wiki
#10
Posté 21 février 2010 - 02:38
Jackimole
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Part 1: The Second Sin "Thedas is a land of fierce diversity, from the assassin-princes of Antiva to the faded griffons of the Anderfels, but in my travels, I have found one tale that unites the people of this land. It is a story of pride and damnation, and although the telling differs, the essence of the tale remains the same.
At the height of its power, the Tevinter Imperium stretched over much of Thedas, uniting the known world under the rule of the tyrannical magisters. It is said that the Old Gods whom the magisters worshipped gave them the knowledge of blood magic, and the magisters used this forbidden power to cement their rule. The blood of elven slaves and humans alike ran down imperial altars to fuel magister greed, the tales of their excesses so horrifying that one can only be grateful that blood magic is prohibited today.
But all that stands tall must eventually fall. Perhaps they foresaw their ruin, or perhaps their pride knew no bounds, but whatever the reason, the magisters dared to open a magical portal into the Golden City at the heart of the Fade. They sought to usurp the Maker's throne, long left unattended in the Golden City after the Maker turned his back on his creations. They would storm heaven itself with their power and become as gods.
This is what the Chantry, in its oft-exercised tendency to understate, refers to as the second sin.
According to most versions of the tale, the magisters did indeed reach the Golden City and walked into the home of the Maker, where no living being before them had dared, or been able, to tread. But humanity is not meant to walk in heaven. The magisters were wicked with pride and other sins, and their presence tainted the Golden City. What once was a perfect, holy citadel became a twisted home of darkness and nightmares. The magisters were expelled back through their gateway and cursed for their treachery. As the Golden City had been tainted, so were the magisters twisted and transformed into things of darkness--the very first of the darkspawn. The Golden City, once a shining beacon at the heart of the Fade, became the Black City, a reminder of all that man's pride has cost."
— Excerpt from Tales of the Destruction of Thedas, by Brother Genitivi, Chantry Scholar
[edit] Part 2: Dumat Rises “People today have little concept of the consequences of the second sin. Oh, believe me when I say that when asked, pious, Chantry-going folk will curse the use of foul magic, spitting and snapping their fingers--but none live today who actually remember the horror that was unleashed so very long ago. Whatever records might have existed regrettably did not survive the chaos and ignorance that was to follow. We have only the tales of survivors handed down through the murky ages and the dogma of the Chantry to instruct us, and that is precious little indeed.
I believe I am not understating when I say that the second sin unleashed the bane of all life upon Thedas. The darkspawn are more virulent than the worst plague, a heartless force of nature that came into our world like an ill wind. We know from accounts of later Blights (as these darkspawn invasions came to be called--never has a more appropriate name existed) that the darkspawn spread disease and famine wherever they tread. The earth itself is corrupted by their presence, the sky roiling with angry black clouds. I do not exaggerate, my friends, when I say that a mass gathering of darkspawn is an omen of dread cataclysm.
It is said that those cursed magisters who became the first darkspawn scratched at the very earth to find solace in the darkness of the dwarven Deep Roads, and there in the shadows they multiplied. Whether by intelligent design or by some last vestige of worship in their minds, they attempted to locate the Old Gods they had once served. They found what they sought: Dumat, first among the Old Gods, once known as the Dragon of Silence before the Maker imprisoned him and all his brethren beneath the earth for the first sin: usurping the Maker's place in mankind's heart.
The slumbering dragon awoke, freed from the Maker's prison by his twisted followers, and became corrupted himself. Dumat was transformed into the first archdemon, his great and terrible power given will by a rotting, unholy mind. With the darkspawn horde following, Dumat rose and took wing in the skies once again, bringing ruin to the world the Maker had created. The Old God had become the eye of a dark storm that would ravage the entire world.”
—An excerpt from Tales of the Destruction of Thedas, by Brother Genitivi, Chantry Scholar
[edit] Part 3: The Dwarves Fall "The ancient world during the First Blight was very different from the one we know today. Aside from the civilized rule of the Imperium, humans as a race were largely barbarous and splintered, divided into clans and tribes and squabbling among ourselves for resources. At the same time, deep beneath Thedas’s great mountain ranges spanned a dwarven culture as organized and advanced as ours was primitive.
As the darkspawn bubbled up to the surface from their underground lairs, mankind first buckled and then fought back. The armies of Tevinter attempted to face down the multitudes of twisted creatures and the horrid rotting of the land around them, but they could not be everywhere at once. Human history remembers the First Blight as a time of terrible devastation, and those stories are accurate, but in our arrogance, we often forget the price paid by the dwarves in their isolated mountain kingdoms.
The dwarves faced far greater hordes than the humans as the darkspawn challenged them for control of the underground. Despite the might and technology the dwarves brought to bear, the savage darkspawn tore through them, first destroying the more remote thaigs before swallowing up entire kingdoms. Think of it: an entire civilization lost in the space of decades. Compared to the near-genocide that the dwarves faced, what we humans call the First Blight must have seemed a mere skirmish to them. Against the darkspawn, the dwarven lands have always taken on the brunt of the fighting and the majority of the sacrifices.
Four dwarven kingdoms finally managed to combine their might and fight back, and that cooperation saved them. But for the rest of their lands it was too late. The darkspawn had taken the Deep Roads, the majestic underground passages that linked the dwarven lands throughout Thedas. The darkspawn could now attack anywhere on the surface through these tunnels. Humanity simply was not prepared for an onslaught such as this. It was clear that the warfare we knew would not avail us. We had to find a new way to fight.
Thus came our salvation: The Grey Wardens were born.
—An excerpt from Tales of the Destruction of Thedas, by Brother Genitivi, Chantry Scholar
[edit] Part 4: Griffons Take Flight "Founded at Weisshaupt Fortress in the Anderfels, the Grey Wardens offered humanity hope in its darkest hour. Veterans of decades of battles with the darkspawn came together, and the best among them pledged to do whatever was necessary to stem the tide of darkness that swept across the land. These great humans, elves, and dwarves pooled their knowledge of the enemy and formed a united front to finally put a stop to the archdemon’s rampage.
And stop it they did. Ballads are still told today of the first Grey Warden charge into the waves of darkspawn at the city of Nordbotten, each Warden facing 10, 20 darkspawn at a time. Squadrons of Grey Wardens mounted on their mighty griffons, soaring through the blackened skies and battling the terrible archdemon with spear and spell. Oh, what a sight it must have been!
Incredibly, the Grey Wardens won that first battle. They raised their arms in victory, and suddenly there was hope. The Grey Wardens led the lands of men and the last stalwart defenders of the dwarven halls against the hordes of the archdemon Dumat for the next 100 years, gaining and losing ground but never backing away. They recruited whoever possessed the skill and strength to raise their banner from all over Thedas, making no distinction between elven slave or human nobleman. Finally, nearly two centuries after the first Old God rose from the earth, the Grey Wardens assembled the armies of men and dwarves at the Battle of Silent Fields. It was then that Dumat was finally slain and the First Blight ended.
The Tevinter Imperium would face a new challenge with the coming of the prophet Andraste, and thoughts of the Blight grew distant. With their defeat, the darkspawn were considered no longer a threat, but with the wisdom of hindsight, we all know that conceit proved to be hopeful and foolish indeed. The task of the Grey Wardens was far from over.
—An excerpt from Tales of the Destruction of Thedas, by Brother Genitivi, Chantry Scholar
At the height of its power, the Tevinter Imperium stretched over much of Thedas, uniting the known world under the rule of the tyrannical magisters. It is said that the Old Gods whom the magisters worshipped gave them the knowledge of blood magic, and the magisters used this forbidden power to cement their rule. The blood of elven slaves and humans alike ran down imperial altars to fuel magister greed, the tales of their excesses so horrifying that one can only be grateful that blood magic is prohibited today.
But all that stands tall must eventually fall. Perhaps they foresaw their ruin, or perhaps their pride knew no bounds, but whatever the reason, the magisters dared to open a magical portal into the Golden City at the heart of the Fade. They sought to usurp the Maker's throne, long left unattended in the Golden City after the Maker turned his back on his creations. They would storm heaven itself with their power and become as gods.
This is what the Chantry, in its oft-exercised tendency to understate, refers to as the second sin.
According to most versions of the tale, the magisters did indeed reach the Golden City and walked into the home of the Maker, where no living being before them had dared, or been able, to tread. But humanity is not meant to walk in heaven. The magisters were wicked with pride and other sins, and their presence tainted the Golden City. What once was a perfect, holy citadel became a twisted home of darkness and nightmares. The magisters were expelled back through their gateway and cursed for their treachery. As the Golden City had been tainted, so were the magisters twisted and transformed into things of darkness--the very first of the darkspawn. The Golden City, once a shining beacon at the heart of the Fade, became the Black City, a reminder of all that man's pride has cost."
— Excerpt from Tales of the Destruction of Thedas, by Brother Genitivi, Chantry Scholar
[edit] Part 2: Dumat Rises “People today have little concept of the consequences of the second sin. Oh, believe me when I say that when asked, pious, Chantry-going folk will curse the use of foul magic, spitting and snapping their fingers--but none live today who actually remember the horror that was unleashed so very long ago. Whatever records might have existed regrettably did not survive the chaos and ignorance that was to follow. We have only the tales of survivors handed down through the murky ages and the dogma of the Chantry to instruct us, and that is precious little indeed.
I believe I am not understating when I say that the second sin unleashed the bane of all life upon Thedas. The darkspawn are more virulent than the worst plague, a heartless force of nature that came into our world like an ill wind. We know from accounts of later Blights (as these darkspawn invasions came to be called--never has a more appropriate name existed) that the darkspawn spread disease and famine wherever they tread. The earth itself is corrupted by their presence, the sky roiling with angry black clouds. I do not exaggerate, my friends, when I say that a mass gathering of darkspawn is an omen of dread cataclysm.
It is said that those cursed magisters who became the first darkspawn scratched at the very earth to find solace in the darkness of the dwarven Deep Roads, and there in the shadows they multiplied. Whether by intelligent design or by some last vestige of worship in their minds, they attempted to locate the Old Gods they had once served. They found what they sought: Dumat, first among the Old Gods, once known as the Dragon of Silence before the Maker imprisoned him and all his brethren beneath the earth for the first sin: usurping the Maker's place in mankind's heart.
The slumbering dragon awoke, freed from the Maker's prison by his twisted followers, and became corrupted himself. Dumat was transformed into the first archdemon, his great and terrible power given will by a rotting, unholy mind. With the darkspawn horde following, Dumat rose and took wing in the skies once again, bringing ruin to the world the Maker had created. The Old God had become the eye of a dark storm that would ravage the entire world.”
—An excerpt from Tales of the Destruction of Thedas, by Brother Genitivi, Chantry Scholar
[edit] Part 3: The Dwarves Fall "The ancient world during the First Blight was very different from the one we know today. Aside from the civilized rule of the Imperium, humans as a race were largely barbarous and splintered, divided into clans and tribes and squabbling among ourselves for resources. At the same time, deep beneath Thedas’s great mountain ranges spanned a dwarven culture as organized and advanced as ours was primitive.
As the darkspawn bubbled up to the surface from their underground lairs, mankind first buckled and then fought back. The armies of Tevinter attempted to face down the multitudes of twisted creatures and the horrid rotting of the land around them, but they could not be everywhere at once. Human history remembers the First Blight as a time of terrible devastation, and those stories are accurate, but in our arrogance, we often forget the price paid by the dwarves in their isolated mountain kingdoms.
The dwarves faced far greater hordes than the humans as the darkspawn challenged them for control of the underground. Despite the might and technology the dwarves brought to bear, the savage darkspawn tore through them, first destroying the more remote thaigs before swallowing up entire kingdoms. Think of it: an entire civilization lost in the space of decades. Compared to the near-genocide that the dwarves faced, what we humans call the First Blight must have seemed a mere skirmish to them. Against the darkspawn, the dwarven lands have always taken on the brunt of the fighting and the majority of the sacrifices.
Four dwarven kingdoms finally managed to combine their might and fight back, and that cooperation saved them. But for the rest of their lands it was too late. The darkspawn had taken the Deep Roads, the majestic underground passages that linked the dwarven lands throughout Thedas. The darkspawn could now attack anywhere on the surface through these tunnels. Humanity simply was not prepared for an onslaught such as this. It was clear that the warfare we knew would not avail us. We had to find a new way to fight.
Thus came our salvation: The Grey Wardens were born.
—An excerpt from Tales of the Destruction of Thedas, by Brother Genitivi, Chantry Scholar
[edit] Part 4: Griffons Take Flight "Founded at Weisshaupt Fortress in the Anderfels, the Grey Wardens offered humanity hope in its darkest hour. Veterans of decades of battles with the darkspawn came together, and the best among them pledged to do whatever was necessary to stem the tide of darkness that swept across the land. These great humans, elves, and dwarves pooled their knowledge of the enemy and formed a united front to finally put a stop to the archdemon’s rampage.
And stop it they did. Ballads are still told today of the first Grey Warden charge into the waves of darkspawn at the city of Nordbotten, each Warden facing 10, 20 darkspawn at a time. Squadrons of Grey Wardens mounted on their mighty griffons, soaring through the blackened skies and battling the terrible archdemon with spear and spell. Oh, what a sight it must have been!
Incredibly, the Grey Wardens won that first battle. They raised their arms in victory, and suddenly there was hope. The Grey Wardens led the lands of men and the last stalwart defenders of the dwarven halls against the hordes of the archdemon Dumat for the next 100 years, gaining and losing ground but never backing away. They recruited whoever possessed the skill and strength to raise their banner from all over Thedas, making no distinction between elven slave or human nobleman. Finally, nearly two centuries after the first Old God rose from the earth, the Grey Wardens assembled the armies of men and dwarves at the Battle of Silent Fields. It was then that Dumat was finally slain and the First Blight ended.
The Tevinter Imperium would face a new challenge with the coming of the prophet Andraste, and thoughts of the Blight grew distant. With their defeat, the darkspawn were considered no longer a threat, but with the wisdom of hindsight, we all know that conceit proved to be hopeful and foolish indeed. The task of the Grey Wardens was far from over.
—An excerpt from Tales of the Destruction of Thedas, by Brother Genitivi, Chantry Scholar
#11
Posté 21 février 2010 - 02:46
Kryyptehk
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Okay, say a guy drives his sword into the archdemon and takes it out. It is COVERED in archdemon blood. You only need one drop for the ritual. That's a lot of drops, and thus, Grey Wardens.
#12
Posté 21 février 2010 - 02:49
Jackimole
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Kryyptehk wrote...
Okay, say a guy drives his sword into the archdemon and takes it out. It is COVERED in archdemon blood. You only need one drop for the ritual. That's a lot of drops, and thus, Grey Wardens.
They're kinda all dying... I don't think anyone could get close to the Archdemon, and live to tell the tale. Much less stab it, and collect it's blood...
#13
Posté 21 février 2010 - 02:49
Daerog
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Crippledcarny wrote...
Because it's known that if the archdemon is "killed" it will just jump to a darkspawn body and be reborn, unless it's killed by a gray warden, then it can be assumed that the first archdemon was killed a few times before it actually died. Meaning there was a lot of blood they could have picked up.
Ah, of course, that makes the most sense. So, This ^^
#14
Posté 21 février 2010 - 02:51
Jackimole
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DaerogTheDhampir wrote...
Crippledcarny wrote...
Because it's known that if the archdemon is "killed" it will just jump to a darkspawn body and be reborn, unless it's killed by a gray warden, then it can be assumed that the first archdemon was killed a few times before it actually died. Meaning there was a lot of blood they could have picked up.
Ah, of course, that makes the most sense. So, This ^^
I does make the most sense, but, I don't understand how one could kill the Archdemon, when they're all so unprepared, and know nothing about their enemy...
#15
Posté 21 février 2010 - 02:51
Daerog
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Jackimole wrote...
Kryyptehk wrote...
Okay, say a guy drives his sword into the archdemon and takes it out. It is COVERED in archdemon blood. You only need one drop for the ritual. That's a lot of drops, and thus, Grey Wardens.
They're kinda all dying... I don't think anyone could get close to the Archdemon, and live to tell the tale. Much less stab it, and collect it's blood...
Well, as was stated earlier, the archdemon probably died a couple times with people coming in after the battle was over and collected the blood. Also, it was stated that all of the original Grey Wardens died in the battle that finally ended the first Blight.
#16
Posté 21 février 2010 - 02:53
Daerog
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Jackimole wrote...
I does make the most sense, but, I don't understand how one could kill the Archdemon, when they're all so unprepared, and know nothing about their enemy...
Know nothing? It bleeds, send waves of men at it, have it bleed to death. Or as that one forum statement goes: KILL IT WITH FIRE! Trial and error was the first Blight.
#17
Posté 21 février 2010 - 02:53
Jackimole
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DaerogTheDhampir wrote...
Jackimole wrote...
Kryyptehk wrote...
Okay, say a guy drives his sword into the archdemon and takes it out. It is COVERED in archdemon blood. You only need one drop for the ritual. That's a lot of drops, and thus, Grey Wardens.
They're kinda all dying... I don't think anyone could get close to the Archdemon, and live to tell the tale. Much less stab it, and collect it's blood...
Well, as was stated earlier, the archdemon probably died a couple times with people coming in after the battle was over and collected the blood. Also, it was stated that all of the original Grey Wardens died in the battle that finally ended the first Blight.
Where did it say that? Also, if they all died, how did they make new ones o.O
#18
Posté 21 février 2010 - 02:53
Caozen
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So wait, say an Archdemon is killed. Its soul hops into the vessel of a fellow Darkspawn. Does this diminutive little scamp instantly expand into a monstrous dragon?
Similiar to the Demon + Mage = Abomination deal?
Similiar to the Demon + Mage = Abomination deal?
Modifié par Caozen, 21 février 2010 - 02:54 .
#19
Posté 21 février 2010 - 02:55
Bullets McDeath
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The first Archdemon was killed many times before they figured out the trick of creating Grey Wardens, so one can assume it was from one of these occasions that the blood for the ritual was acquired. I don't know if it's ever stated in specific detail how that blood was acquired, though. But it's not really a paradox.
#20
Posté 21 février 2010 - 02:55
dkjestrup
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You can kill the archdemon without Grey wardens. It just comes back.
#21
Posté 21 février 2010 - 02:55
Daerog
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Jackimole wrote...
Where did it say that? Also, if they all died, how did they make new ones o.O
New recruits were already made before the final battle. But the very first Grey Wardens, the ones to first figure it out, all died.
Modifié par DaerogTheDhampir, 21 février 2010 - 02:56 .
#22
Posté 21 février 2010 - 02:56
Jackimole
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DaerogTheDhampir wrote...
Jackimole wrote...
Where did it say that? Also, if they all died, how did they make new ones o.O
New recruits were already made before the final battle. But the very first Grey Wardens, the one's to first figure it out, all died.
That makes sense-ish
#23
Posté 21 février 2010 - 02:56
Bullets McDeath
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Caozen wrote...
So wait, say an Archdemon is killed. Its soul hops into the vessel of a fellow Darkspawn. Does this diminutive little scamp instantly expand into a monstrous dragon?
Similiar to the Demon + Mage = Abomination deal?
I always assumed they had some method for extracting the Archdemon's soul back into the body of the Old God and re-animating it again. But I don't knw the official answer.
#24
Posté 21 février 2010 - 02:57
jsachun
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First Grey Warden was an Intelligent Archdemon in Grey Warden Form?!?
BLOOD SACRIFICE for the joining ritual.
BLOOD SACRIFICE for the joining ritual.
Modifié par jsachun, 21 février 2010 - 02:58 .
#25
Posté 21 février 2010 - 02:59
Jackimole
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I think they figured out that killing the Archdemon with a non-Warden durring the fourth blight, when
"In 5:20 Exalted the elven hero Garahel leads an army of Grey Wardens and Anders to the city of Hossberg and breaks the siege. With his fellow wardens from Orlais and the Anderfels, Garahel marches to Starkhaven and forms an alliance between the minor kings and teyrns of the Free Marches. Under the banner of the Grey Wardens, this united army marches north, eventually freeing the nation of Antiva from the terror of the Darkspawn in the battle of the city of Ayesleigh. It is here where Garahel dies, having personally defeated Andoral in combat."
"In 5:20 Exalted the elven hero Garahel leads an army of Grey Wardens and Anders to the city of Hossberg and breaks the siege. With his fellow wardens from Orlais and the Anderfels, Garahel marches to Starkhaven and forms an alliance between the minor kings and teyrns of the Free Marches. Under the banner of the Grey Wardens, this united army marches north, eventually freeing the nation of Antiva from the terror of the Darkspawn in the battle of the city of Ayesleigh. It is here where Garahel dies, having personally defeated Andoral in combat."
