130 réponses à ce sujet

[Pocketgb]

Difficulty in Dragon Age is not about what setting your on, it's how many mages are in the party ;p

[FiOth]

Pocketgb wrote...

Difficulty in Dragon Age is not about what setting your on, it's how many mages are in the party ;p

 That's a little rough mate.

[newcomplex]

Forest03 wrote...

@ newcomplex

To be tactically challenging, a game should make us prepare in-depth. I don't expect it, nor would I want it, to be the at the extent an RTS player would have to plan and prep, but why make us waste time ducking around, wasting ammo and medigel, when there are so many skills we could use? The only thing BioWare did is give those skills an extremely low success rate.

Ok, what do you mean "prepare us in depth"?   Do you mean skill build?  Because that is not tactical challenge, that is simply research.    Other then that, what possible would you have the player do prior to a fight to "prepare in depth" other then getting the right ammo, which isn't so much a tactical choice other then being able to read.

I see nothing else to challenge me on Insanity other than the fact that I know fights are going to take longer while adding nothing more to complexity. In fact, it decreases complexity compared to Veteran and Hardcore.

Certainly.    I agree wtih this sentiment, which is why I proposed removing pause, so that you have to make good decisions on the spot in real time, something that requires practice, as oppose to simply pausing and taking all the time in the world, reducing the skill required to a minimum.

As to the question of control override, why not give us barriers? The Sentinel, for example has a great skill (that is thankfully still useful on Insanity), the Tech Shield. BioWare can take it a step further for Adepts, and even biotic squad members. All it would take is a Tech shield or Barrier to keep us from getting pulled, thrown, or slammed, just in the way that we can't pull or throw an armored target or one with a barrier.

I don't understand.    How would giving players barrier change anything?   Your limiting their skill choices, and the broken nature of enemy pull remains.    What happens when barriers drop, as they do in two seconds on insanity?   

As for Engineers being able to hack, why not? BioWare substantially increased mob health anyway. Plus, the premise of Combat Drone (besides the explosive variety) is to create a distraction, a form of crowd control against multiple enemies. An enemy hack readily takes that away, even if it doesn't add to the player's ammo expenditure.

Drones recharge in THREE SECONDS.    By the time the enemy AI gets around to hacking your drone, you can already put a new one up.

Little things like these can be a frustration for some players, sure. But that's why there are Normal and Veteran players. Even now, many players find Insanity "easy". Though, I'm sure most are just bragging. Insanity is not a cake walk. It's simply, well... dull.

Your entire post was about how Insanity was frustrating because of you getting killed by factors that you felt were beyond your control.   Are you honestly telling me you won't be frustrated by randomly getting hit by pull when your sheilds drop?    

Making insanity hard is a simple matter of requiring on-spot decision making skills.    Its impossible to structure a shooter to require a level of tactical thiking required from a RTS without it being a RTS.   Moreover, the things you described are not tactical thinking but mechanics that encourage the opposite, or pointless gimmicks.    

Tactical thinking would be to allow you to assume direct control of squad members to launch multi-pronged attacks.     Having your central group lay heavy supportive fire while a third squadmate comes around and attempts to flank them.    To have kite a prateorian while squad members lay suppressive fire on collectors to prevent flanking.   Or to designate snipers to quickly take out support tech while you hold off shock troopers.   Obviously, this would be accompanied by a drastic increase in enemy difficulty.    These tactics are downright impossible due to the crappy AI and the real time combat, as well as the inability to control squadmates.   To allow them would be to drastically restructure ME's gameplay.    To have something Bioware never intended to have.    

Their is literally no further way you can increase the amount of tactical thinking in ME2 besides some random gimmicks without restructuring the gameplay.    The limited UI and AI prevents advance strategies from being preformed, and thus, restricts enemy design.    Their is no way you can expand enemy roles beyond suppressive fire/shock trooper/artillery/heavy support, basic elements that date to date back to games like Halo or Half Life.     That is all your going to have in ME, something that ME2 already explores fully.    And frankly, its enough, the tactics practiced by the enemy are actually surpringly coherent, though their is certainly work to be done.  The only problem is that the game is giving you a pause screen meant for tactical games when this game simply is not as tactical as it thinks it is.   

Modifié par newcomplex, 25 février 2010 - 03:59 .

[newcomplex]

FiOth wrote...

newcomplex wrote...
I am expressing my opinion of how insanity sucks in a thread "A praise to insanity".   Let me assure you, I have never went to someone who is asking for help, and posted "lol insaniities easy".     The title of this thread implies it is a discussion of insanity.    I am voicing my opinion.   This thread was in no way shape or form started as a thread to give advice.    The meaning of my words were that I thought insanity was easy, in a thread discussing insanity.    The thread was in no way shape or form discussing advice on how to beat insanity from the OP.    Don't start a thread if your expecting everyone to agree with you.    You asked for "your thoughts", and I gave them.    Simple as that.      

I do not want you to agree with me. I do not want you to take on the instructor's role if you don't want to. I just want it to be kept civil and polite. That is all.

I usually enjoy helping people when they ask for help. I also try not to flame/ insult them. I am not saying that this was your intention - maybe it was - but to tell someone that what they are trying to beat and fail many times was "easy" for you seems a little disheartening. 

Someone above mentioned Dragon Age: Origins. DA: O on Nightmare is more a matter of making the right equipment and party members decisions than tactical or micromanaging skills - as most RPGs of its kind are -. In ME2 we were able to tackle a challenge that favored mechanical skills over the overused RPG formula of arming your teammates and letting them do their job. It required more of the player in terms of direct intervention and that in my point of view is a huge plus.

Simply my answer to the statement above.

What do you expect me to do?   This thread was not "help me, I'm stuck", it was an attempt to start discourse about the nature of insanity.   If the fact that I thought it was easy offends anyone, it literally cannot be helped.   I'm simply giving an opinion, and backing it up.      

[aeetos21]

I originally tried insanity with my VG, then whined it was too hard and this is BS and impossible to do with the berserker style class. Soldier and sentinel seemed like much better options and when I beat it with my soldier it felt like I really accomplished something - only not completely. I see people beating the difficulty with their own VG's and it pissed me off - not at them - but at what a whiny b*tch I had been and just how easily I gave up.

So I looked at builds, seeing what others did and compared it to what I did. Went over levels, looked more closely at the environments and how best to deploy the squad and when to charge and when not to (a whole bunch of stuff). Eventually I got the gist that playing a VG on insanity is an EXTREMELY tactical experience that is a lot like the adept only much more fast paced.

It's like you're a snake preparing to strike, charge is. If you time it right and don't f*ck up then its immensely powerful and battle changing. If you don't, then your snake's "head" is stretched way out there for some enemy to just come along and slice it clean off.

Haven't completed it on a fresh playthrough yet, working my way through that now, but I am supremely confident and no longer punch my desk when I die.

Modifié par aeetos21, 25 février 2010 - 04:02 .

[newcomplex]

^

I actually agree with that sentiment, I think playing a vanguard in the exciting "right" way is probably one of the few ways where ME becomes tactical even with pause.

I'm going to spin a thesis off that one. The reason why the other five classes fail to be as tactical is that BW fails to utilize all the components of a shooter. They don't have the shooting down, and thats ok, because this is a cover based RPG/shooter hybrid. They have the enemy roles down pretty hard. They have the individual strategic formulation down pretty hard.

What their missing is utilizing terrain. For most classes, combat is a matter of finding a solid place to hide behind, and not moving. Moving is actively discouraged throughout the game. Their is no reason for any other class to move, because doing so is a recipe for suicide, and it is completely unnecessary to the game. What BW needs to do is redesign the levels and the combat as to encourage moving around for all classes. I think one of the best ways they could do that is by rescaling the game assuming that intensive fire will break down cover, or punch holes through it. That requires the player to simultaneously navigate his environment, and prioritize taking down the enemy before he is forced into a position where their is no viable cover.   It also has the side effect of making combat extremely realistic.   

Modifié par newcomplex, 25 février 2010 - 04:09 .

[Forest03]

^ You're right. That was not my intention, but my statement could stand rephrasing. At any rate, there's nothing standing in the way of casual gamers working up to Insanity.

I just wish that BioWare had not implemented an "Okay, these 6 skills will be utterly useless in Insanity mode" concept. For example, what were they thinking in making the majority of biotic attacks worthless beyond Veteran? Now it's Warp, Reave, duck, Warp, Reave, duck, and the ocassional Singularity or potshot for the entire duration of combat. Yes, I'm oversimplifying. There are other skills in each class that remain worthwhile to have in high difficulty. Regardless, limiting the game mechanics to a 3-skill system (even though it's in no way forced) and increasing enemy stat multipliers is not my idea of "Insane" difficulty. That's creating a time sink that just happens to be more engaging than scanning a planet for minerals.

Also, as I said, a little bit of encouraged planning doesn't hurt. If you've ever played Capture The Flag on any FPS, you don't head for the valley where the other team has a good view of your head. Likewise, If you know there are Biotics up ahead, put up that Barrier or Tech Shield before you run in so you don't get thrown. It should last long enough so we don't have to hit the keybind every minute, but the fact that it's another defensive combat element and that it shares a cooldown also forces us to think of other options instead of relying on just that one overly powerful skill (or two). This is hypothetical, of course. I could go on and on about other skill improvements, attack combinations, and enemy AI, but this isn't really the thread for it. I'm yammering enough as it is.

The bottomline is that most ME players, and RPG players in general, are smart enough to pick at the game mechanics, the plot holes, the inconsistencies in the narrative (or the lack thereof), etc., and have already proven so in these forums. I feel that BioWare, in "streamlining" the gameplay to make it accessible to a variety of gamers with different levels of experience, consequently sacrificed a lot of other things they could have implemented to make it a real challenge for the ME1 veteran (no pun intended). Is the lack of these elements due to design restrictions, the producers, the programmers, time constraints, or the project director? I don't know.

At any rate, the unexpected and learning to overcome it is always a treat for many gamers, myself included, even if it leads to a few "Critical Mission Failures" at first.

[addendum]

@ newcomplex

You are restricting the definition of tactics to movement, be it retreat, bait, or engagement. Bringing in a squad member with a particular skill or making sure you bind a specific one to your skilltabs in order to handle an upcoming battle is not a gimmick. It's tactical preparation, even if in a limited sense. Do you reach for the Heavy Pistol when you know the Collector AR would be a far better choice? Do you think that's a gimmick? Giving the enemies skills that force the player to bring a specific skill set is not a gimmick. Yes, implementing this type of variability requires redesigning much of the current set. I never said keep it the way it is.

As for the removal of the pause, I agree that it would make Insanity an incredibly satisfying albeit oftimes painful experience. Sure, I'm game for that. But don't let that be your only option to increase difficulty.

Modifié par Forest03, 25 février 2010 - 04:21 .

[newcomplex]

Forest03 wrote...

^ You're right. That was not my intention, but my statement could stand rephrasing. At any rate, there's nothing standing in the way of casual gamers working up to Insanity.

I just wish that BioWare had not implemented an "Okay, these 6 skills will be utterly useless in Insanity mode" concept. For example, what were they thinking in making the majority of biotic attacks worthless beyond Veteran? Now it's Warp, Reave, duck, Warp, Reave, duck, and the ocassional Singularity or potshot for the entire duration of combat. Yes, I'm oversimplifying. There are other skills in each class that remain worthwhile to have in high difficulty. Regardless, limiting the game mechanics to a 3-skill system (even though it's in no way forced) and increasing enemy stat multipliers is not my idea of "Insane" difficulty. That's creating a time sink that just happens to be more engaging than scanning a planet for minerals.

dun use warp AND reave.    Get warp ammo or dominate or smthing, ur makin mah brain hertz

Also, as I said, a little bit of encouraged planning doesn't hurt. If you've ever played Capture The Flag on any FPS, you don't head for the valley where the other team has a good view of your head. Likewise, If you know there are Biotics up ahead, put up that Barrier or Tech Shield before you run in so you don't get thrown. It should last long enough so we don't have to hit the keybind every minute, but the fact that it's another defensive combat element and that it shares a cooldown also forces us to think of other options instead of relying on just that one overly powerful skill (or two). This is hypothetical, of course. I could go on and on about other skill improvements, attack combinations, and enemy AI, but this isn't really the thread for it. I'm yammering enough as it is.

That isn't planning thats tedium.   Their isn't a single scenario where one wouldn't use tech armor before a fight.   Its why they did away with NWN style buffing with maintain costs in DA:O.   Second, having tech armor isn't going to stop you from being thrown lol, tech armor lasts seconds longer then normal armor in heavy fire.    Your not going to be signficantly more well protected then just having normal armor.

The bottomline is that most ME players, and RPG players in general, are smart enough to pick at the game mechanics, the plot holes, the inconsistencies in the narrative (or the lack thereof), etc., and have already proven so in these forums. I feel that BioWare, in "streamlining" the gameplay to make it accessible to a variety of gamers with different levels of experience, consequently sacrificed a lot of other things they could have implemented to make it a real challenge for the ME1 veteran (no pun intended). Is the lack of these elements due to design restrictions, the producers, the programmers, time constraints, or the project director? I don't know.

This took a complete 180 from the rest of your post lol.    What does this have to do with anything, considering ME2 combat is both harder and more complex then ME1 combat, which was a joke?

At any rate, the unexpected and learning to overcome it is always a treat for many gamers, myself included, even if it leads to a few "Critical Mission Failures" at first.

mhm.

[FiOth]

Some statements regarding the lack of variable terrain actually hold merit. Many of the most enjoyable moments during both my playthroughs were the ones in which I'd cloak my Infiltrator and move him to a vantage point or take my soldier to higher ground to rain bullets down on the opposition. It would have been great if more opportunities like those arose, the few chances that were given to us really made combat shine and feel epic.



There is always room for improvement.

[Woodenducky]

My only complaint is that the team AI is a little too slow to actually work with me on what I was trying to do tactically.

Also, sometimes the covering system, even outside of insanity is a little weak.

It's too easy to get stuck or you won't vault when you're supposed to.

But anyhow, I just beat the game on insanity today.

I did a straight jump from normal to insanity. (as I usually do with most games, haha)

Some parts were actually too easy.

And some parts were tremendously fun because of the dependence on tactics.

ME2 has really just been a great experience for me, as I've now played though the game 3 times in the month it's been out

[Gill Kaiser]

I really enjoyed my first Insanity runthrough. I was an Infiltrator though, which probably made it easier. However, I think from now on I'll keep it on Insanity... I can't wait to try an Adept or Vanguard.

I think I'll wait for a few of the larger DLCs to come out before I try though, lest I burn myself out on ME2.

[Shoko86]

I too jumped from Normal to Insanity. Insanity... was rough to begin with.. especially at Horizon with the 2 Scion... mother of god.. almost rage/quit... but finally got through. It's actually fun, but for now I have no plans to play on Insanity for fun. I go Casual for fun. Casual is so damn easy it's great.

[HeyBlade789]

Playing as a sentinel and enjoying the challenger, just beat the collector cruiser, by far the hardest mission, all together enjoying it greatly

[WInd and Rain]

All I know is the only way I survived at all and got through Insanity on my first playthrough with lvl60 Engineer (and then again with lvl54 Adept) was by pausing, looking around, seeing where the enemies were and where my squadmates were, thinking tactically and making decisions that would have been impossible for me to make in real time.



I'm definitely not a noob when it comes to real time shooters. ME2's combat system is compared to, with justification, Gears of War in how it behaves, the use of terrain and cover, "chest-high walls", and the over-the-shoulder camera, but I thought Gears of War was incredibly easy, very straightforward. I beat horde mode solo on the hardest setting. Once you get the cadence of the GoW combat, it comes naturally... you get into cover, you aim your gun and shoot, maybe you throw a grenade. It's viscerally fun and has it's own merits, but ME2 has a LOT more going on, and when you play on Insanity, it all comes at you relentlessly, sometimes all at once, sometimes in grueling waves. There are a lot more enemies, they all have armor, there are levels in which I couldn't even count all the husks coming at me. Reminded me of a mall during Christmas.



In ME2, there is no cadence, there is no predictability. Every fight is a brand new challenge. Even the same ones that you need to repeat if you die behave very differently from each other. The key difference in ME2 from GoW is the vast range of variables that are in play during combat from tech and biotic powers, having two other squadmates that you have some control over, and I think the enemy AI is one of the most effective and challenging I've seen in a video game, at least from my experience.



I would think playing on Insanity without the pause feature would be nearly suicidal, at least with a tactics-oriented class. Maybe with Soldier and Geth Shield Boost or something you could cut through it, but I don't know. Might be an interesting exploration. For me, with liberal use of the pause feature, Insanity was a white-knuckled experience.

[massive_effect]

medlish wrote...

NG+ Insanity with level 30 is more difficult than normal game insanity.
Just saying for the ones of you who played normal insanity and found it too easy.

I wish I knew that before playing a whole game on Casual to beef up before Insanity.

[FiOth]

WInd and Rain



I think that in GoW - and especially in the second installment - the attention to the little details of combat is more spot on than in ME2. GoW is the series that brought cover-based shooting into the mainstream and it embodies the base principles of the genre better than any other game.



Truth be told though, there are more things going on in ME2 than in GoW due to the first game's RPG elements.

[WInd and Rain]

FiOth wrote...

WInd and Rain

I think that in GoW - and especially in the second installment - the attention to the little details of combat is more spot on than in ME2. GoW is the series that brought cover-based shooting into the mainstream and it embodies the base principles of the genre better than any other game.

Truth be told though, there are more things going on in ME2 than in GoW due to the first game's RPG elements.

Totally agree... we owe a lot to Epic and what they brought to the industry with the GoW franchise. GoW2 is beautifully crafted and "does what it does" with absolute finesse. At the same time, I couldn't be happier that ME2 jumped on its coat tails, though I know many posters on here dislike the "shooteriness" and prefer the ME1 way of things. Personally, I could never go back to ME1 combat after playing ME2.

[FiOth]

WInd and Rain wrote...

FiOth wrote...

WInd and Rain

I think that in GoW - and especially in the second installment - the attention to the little details of combat is more spot on than in ME2. GoW is the series that brought cover-based shooting into the mainstream and it embodies the base principles of the genre better than any other game.

Truth be told though, there are more things going on in ME2 than in GoW due to the first game's RPG elements.

Totally agree... we owe a lot to Epic and what they brought to the industry with the GoW franchise. GoW2 is beautifully crafted and "does what it does" with absolute finesse. At the same time, I couldn't be happier that ME2 jumped on its coat tails, though I know many posters on here dislike the "shooteriness" and prefer the ME1 way of things. Personally, I could never go back to ME1 combat after playing ME2.

A person after my own heart. Its ridiculous how some people assume that because a big portion of the mainstream user base in the FPS/ TPS genre is brain-dead 15 years old children the whole of the community suffers from the same... "inabilities". As you stated I believe that BW hit the goldmine with the transition to simplified TPS mechanics making combat more fluid and tactical. 

A very nice post. 

[MsKlaussen]

Chaos-fusion wrote...

MsKlaussen wrote...

I was actually trying to give people who are that good at ME2 credit, because as these things go, I was sort of in awe after my own struggles. Sort of didn't expect certain responses. I will keep trying though, and I appreciate the kind words

Are you planning on taking another attempt at hardcore or insanity?* If you are then first of all, good luck. Second, there are plenty of good topics in the character builds forums that have tips for all the classes - what equipment, bonus talent, skills and party members are best (or at least, more useful. It might take some time to figure out what works for you specifically). Assuming you don't know about those, of course. :happy:

*Edit: Ah, yes. I was never very good at paying attention to what I read.

Haha - You have a long way to go before you can be as oblivious as me. Of course, there are plenty of good topics in the character fails forums that have tips

I actually figured out some of my problem last night while realizing that the night before I posted originally on this, I had been extremely tired (more than I realized) and that affected my playing a lot. Last night I did way better and was pretty much kicking a** until I had been playing for over three hours, at which point I again started to get thrashed.

I realized that as time goes on I simply see less and less of the area I'm in, and just stop registering danger with any urgency. Whoever said the main problem was identifying the gravest threat on a constant basis was right, because by the end of the session I was being killed by enemies that had basically walked all the way across the map casually and shot me in the face. It's like I completely forgot that I could be attacked from somewhere other than where I was looking.

This never used to happen to me after two or three hours. I am old. Now there's no mistake

[FiOth]

MsKlaussen wrote...
This never used to happen to me after two or three hours. I am old. Now there's no mistake 

Three hours is actually the fail point for most people, taking a 15' - 30' break usually improves performance dramatically. 

If you end up reattempting an area without success take a quick break and come back again while the situation is still mapped in your head, You will do much better.

PS. When you reach the Ghost Ship don't rage quit. Push through. After that the experience gets balanced again.

[MsKlaussen]

Also like Woodenducky said, the AI of my squadmates just does not keep up on higher levels. I ended up using Medigel like 4 times in the space of about 3 minutes in the Blue Suns factory fight in the one guy's loyalty mission (forgot his name - the one with the accent and face that's stitched up like a baseball), and again because I was tired it took me forever to realize that I was the only one fighting.



And then someone would be right on top of me and that damned ridiculous cover system would bury me. Double tapping the cover button by accident - I cover and then pop right back out, or don't go into cover at all, or get hit by a heavy weapon and can't cover, or try to run and turn into a sloth, etc.

[MsKlaussen]

FiOth wrote...

MsKlaussen wrote...
This never used to happen to me after two or three hours. I am old. Now there's no mistake 

Three hours is actually the fail point for most people, taking a 15' - 30' break usually improves performance dramatically. 

If you end up reattempting an area without success take a quick break and come back again while the situation is still mapped in your head, You will do much better.

PS. When you reach the Ghost Ship don't rage quit. Push through. After that the experience gets balanced again.

Thanks! Oh by the way, I've been playing as a Vanguard this whole time, since ME1. I like Vanguard, and finally got to heavy charge. I keep hearing it can be used not only as a weapon but as a way to get the hell out of somewhere fast. Is that true? Can you charge without a target, or are they saying that you can get away quickly by targeting someone on the other side of the room? I actually played through the first time hardly ever using charge (maybe used it twice), so I'm just now learning to use it effectively.

[FiOth]

MsKlaussen wrote...

FiOth wrote...

MsKlaussen wrote...
This never used to happen to me after two or three hours. I am old. Now there's no mistake 

Three hours is actually the fail point for most people, taking a 15' - 30' break usually improves performance dramatically. 

If you end up reattempting an area without success take a quick break and come back again while the situation is still mapped in your head, You will do much better.

PS. When you reach the Ghost Ship don't rage quit. Push through. After that the experience gets balanced again.

Thanks! Oh by the way, I've been playing as a Vanguard this whole time, since ME1. I like Vanguard, and finally got to heavy charge. I keep hearing it can be used not only as a weapon but as a way to get the hell out of somewhere fast. Is that true? Can you charge without a target, or are they saying that you can get away quickly by targeting someone on the other side of the room? I actually played through the first time hardly ever using charge (maybe used it twice), so I'm just now learning to use it effectively.

I have no experience with the class in ME2 whatsoever. I am sure someone else will be able to help you with this question though. 

[Cris Shepard]

I am just about finished my first Insanity play through, it was pretty tough, I picked sentinel as my class and man, I regret that immensely!! Tech Armor sucks..

[newcomplex]

You are restricting the definition of tactics to movement, be it retreat, bait, or engagement. Bringing in a squad member with a particular skill or making sure you bind a specific one to your skilltabs in order to handle an upcoming battle is not a gimmick. It's tactical preparation, even if in a limited sense. Do you reach for the Heavy Pistol when you know the Collector AR would be a far better choice? Do you think that's a gimmick? Giving the enemies skills that force the player to bring a specific skill set is not a gimmick. Yes, implementing this type of variability requires redesigning much of the current set. I never said keep it the way it is.



As for the removal of the pause, I agree that it would make Insanity an incredibly satisfying albeit oftimes painful experience. Sure, I'm game for that. But don't let that be your only option to increase difficulty.

Skill/mechanical tactics are something that a)Is impossible to pull off with the current skill system and b)Is not what you described.



ME skill systems is essentially is a linear skill upgrade system. What that means is that investment in a skill needs to be directly proportionate to how often you use it. This is set in contrast with skill tree investment systems, like that used in WoW. If a skill is similar enough to another skill that genuine tactical decision is required, then their would be no reason to get both skills. Case and point: Reave and Warp. Shockwave and Singularity. This is compounded by global cool downs.



Second, the scenarios you are proposing are not (meaningful) tactical choices. Choosing whether to use a weapon good against armor or a weapon good against barriers on a enemy with barriers is hardly a deep tactical choice.