151 réponses à ce sujet

[BlastedLands]

scyphozoa wrote...

I see the word "Betray" used a lot regarding DA love interests and their return in Awakenings. Was DAO ever marketed as a persistent series of games the way that Mass Effect was? I know ME was intentionally marketed from day 1 as a persistent trilogy.

As far as I know, the only justification for anyone thinking that love interests would be returning is because Mass Effect did it or because the epilogue of DAO says that "x and y lived happily ever after".

DAO had a 25 million dollar marketing campaign, during which they had ample opportunity to tell us about how the decisions we make in DAO would be persistent and import into the franchise, clearly no announcements were made.  So why is there any confusion?

maybe because it felt like it should be that way, much more than mass effect ever felt.... at least to me and some dudes (male and female dudes, d'oh) i talked to.

[HighMoon]

Hmm... I wonder who shall take Leliana's place as the official singer? Velanna perhaps? It could be cool to hear her sing some elven songs.

[WilliamShatner]

scyphozoa wrote...

I guess I would say to you guys, as an example, Leliana, she was designed from the ground up to be a 1-game character. the depth and complexity of her character is designed to the scale of a single game. meaning that if you have courted leliana or befriended her, you have seen all the depth and content her character offers.

this is just an example, i have no idea how the writers write, but my guess is that they did not write leliana as a character of indefinite scale. she is scaled to reveal her secrets and the full extent of her personality in 1 game's time. to say we want more would be like saying we want you to tack on new secrets and depth to a character that was already designed to a specific scale.

i don't begrudge you guys liking these characters, i do too. i guess i am just of two reasonings, 1 is that i don't expect anything from a product that is not clearly printed on the box, and 2 the scale of a character cannot be dictated by how loved the character is after the product launches.

i'm not saying bioware couldn't go in and add new content to leliana, but i am saying that is not how the character was originally designed. (again, this is an example and speculation)

i guess i am excited for new characters. i've romanced lel and morrigan and am a huge claudia black fan. but i don't even think morrigan is coming back in DA2 or any expansions. my reasoning for this is that DA2 will probably be ~100 years in the future from DA1. its just IMO but i guess i am just more comfortable letting these characters be retired than other people. I loved them and interacted with them but now i want new content and fresh faces.

Good characters are more than backstory.  They develop too, and all good characters can be developed in many, many ways.  The possibilities are only limited by the writers.

For all the press they get for being the best story tellers in the best, BioWare have rarely shown the ability to develop characters.  The Mass Effect 2 cast got praise from critics for being the best characters BioWare have made, but few of them actually develop.  They are nearly all backstory.  The best development is Tali from ME1 to ME2.  Their other attempt at development Liara was handled so poorly you'd think the writer didn't even know who the character was.

People also want to see the relationships in these games develop to more than just the "boy gets girl" (or girl gets girl/boy gets boy) formula that  has been the case for all BioWare games since KOTOR.  Mass Effect 2 was a perfect oppurtunity for this, but then they shot that in the face (and kicked us in the balls).  Surely after five games of doing this stuff they would be more confident at doing something more ambitious in that regard.

[Booglarize]

scyphozoa wrote...

I guess I would say to you guys, as an example, Leliana, she was designed from the ground up to be a 1-game character. the depth and complexity of her character is designed to the scale of a single game. meaning that if you have courted leliana or befriended her, you have seen all the depth and content her character offers.

this is just an example, i have no idea how the writers write, but my guess is that they did not write leliana as a character of indefinite scale. she is scaled to reveal her secrets and the full extent of her personality in 1 game's time. to say we want more would be like saying we want you to tack on new secrets and depth to a character that was already designed to a specific scale.

i don't begrudge you guys liking these characters, i do too. i guess i am just of two reasonings, 1 is that i don't expect anything from a product that is not clearly printed on the box, and 2 the scale of a character cannot be dictated by how loved the character is after the product launches.

i'm not saying bioware couldn't go in and add new content to leliana, but i am saying that is not how the character was originally designed. (again, this is an example and speculation)

i guess i am excited for new characters. i've romanced lel and morrigan and am a huge claudia black fan. but i don't even think morrigan is coming back in DA2 or any expansions. my reasoning for this is that DA2 will probably be ~100 years in the future from DA1. its just IMO but i guess i am just more comfortable letting these characters be retired than other people. I loved them and interacted with them but now i want new content and fresh faces.

It's not that I really even disagree with you or anything, it's just that I think that if the Dragon Age designers never planned to take continuity seriously in terms of the same character's personal story and relationships carrying on from game to game, they should have:

1) Been a bit more thoughtful about what they put in the epilogues
2) Not marketed the game as a "spiritual successor to the Baldur's Gate series"

When you take both of these things into account there definitely is a huge mismatch between what a long-time fan of BioWare would have rationally expected from an expansion to Dragon Age: Origins, and what they seem to be actually getting in Awakenings. 

[Felipevelloso]

Leliana was my favorite char in the party, her absence is one of the biggest downsizes in awakening for me.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Why wouldn't we see our Chracter or Lelianna again? I can see some reasons for not seeing Lelianna again, as no matter how you put it a new chracter is always more interesting than an old and is easier to give dialogue*, but why on earth would they create a new main chracter for the next game? They could easily come up with reasons for the PC to be in any sort of place they please to fit with the storyline of DA2.



On topic: Why would they let go of Ashburn because Lelianna isn't in the game? I guess it wasn't even BioWare who brought her on, but rather Inon Zur needing some female vocals.



*80% of every companion's dialogue is about his past. If we already know his past, what the hell do you then make him talk about to equal the amount of dialogue with the new characters?

[MassEffect762]

If I can help it Oghren won't survive Awakening, PC paragon or not.



I'll miss Leliana.

[Brockololly]

WilliamShatner wrote...

Good characters are more than backstory.  They develop too, and all good characters can be developed in many, many ways.  The possibilities are only limited by the writers.

For all the press they get for being the best story tellers in the best, BioWare have rarely shown the ability to develop characters.  The Mass Effect 2 cast got praise from critics for being the best characters BioWare have made, but few of them actually develop.  They are nearly all backstory.  The best development is Tali from ME1 to ME2.  Their other attempt at development Liara was handled so poorly you'd think the writer didn't even know who the character was.

People also want to see the relationships in these games develop to more than just the "boy gets girl" (or girl gets girl/boy gets boy) formula that  has been the case for all BioWare games since KOTOR.  Mass Effect 2 was a perfect oppurtunity for this, but then they shot that in the face (and kicked us in the balls).  Surely after five games of doing this stuff they would be more confident at doing something more ambitious in that regard.

QFT!

I absolutely, 100% agree with you here- and thats not to demean Bioware, but like you said, while most Bioware games have interesting characters, most of the time you just uncover their backstory but rarely see them develop in any significant way beyond their backstory. IMO, some of the best actual character development ( and not just learning backstory) was for the crew in BG2 to Throne of Bhaal- I'm thinking of Jaheira or Viconia, specifically.

I think alot of the interesting potential for character development is when you've already unearthed a given character's backstory and get to see how they come to grips with their past via their actions in the present. If you're thinking romances, I think DA was better than ME2 in this regard, as unlike ME, the relationships didn't all necessarily culminate in dramatic end of the world sexy time.

I definitely think there is more potential for Leliana, Morrigan and many other of the DAO companions to grow and become even more interesting characters, but at the same time I understand how its easier for Bioware to just make new characters that fit easier into a given story. Clearly, well be getting more Morrigan in the future as the devs have said as much, but I hope they don't neglect the other companions either.

Modifié par Brockololly, 11 mars 2010 - 02:07 .

[Lucy Glitter]

No one cares that Zev won't be in it T.T



I hate to say this, but I am not buying Awakening. It's not that I now hate the devs or anything, but I am just not interested.

[Sunnie]

If I romanced her and  it's plainly said at the end of the game that we stayed together... what valid reason is there that I don't expect to see her at my side only a handfull of months later?

On top of that, it makes no sense they'd randomly kill-off such an interesting multidimensional character like Leliana, yet leave us with a predictable, drunken dwarf that gets knocked out at the drop of the hat and belches in your face.   I was amused by him at times, but his act got old real fast with me.

Guess I should hop on the band-wagon and suddenly start loving Oghren... since, you know, we don't really have a choice in the matter.

Fixed!

[EmperorSahlertz]

Okay seriously people who don't want to buy the expansion, just because their "love interrest" isn't in it, got issues...



Here are some theoreitical questions for all of you with a girlfriend/boyfriend... Do you think you will still be with that person in 6-12+ months?

If no: Viola, there's your reason for Leli/Zev not being in the expansion.

If yes: Do you know EXACTLY where your girlfriend/boyfriend is in 6-12+ months from now?

If no: Isn't there then just the slightest of chances that Zev or Leli had better things to do thatn stick around with you just for a few days/months and that it just so happens that Awakenings takes place during this?

If yes: Loosen up...

[Special_Agent_Goodwrench]

Elps wrote...

In pre-release interviews Bioware said they wanted to bring emotional involvement to DA. It's worked. They should think twice about stomping on our characters involvement with our Origins companions. I can handle a deviation in Awakening but if there is no further character development with the current companions I'll be disenchanted to say the least. The dialogue options with these companions left loads of scope for further development. "Limited budget" just sounds like a cop-out to me.

Disenchantment!
Sorry. Had to.

On a VERY serious note, yes, Bioware should REALLY think twice about screwing up our involvement with the original companions. DA was one of the few cames thet made me "feel" the characters. They were up, I was up. They were sad, I was felt the same.
Now, don't nobody give me the "but the new companions are just as or more interesting than the old ones" line. I absolutely loved Leliana. She became one of my top favorite characters overnight. If they just randomly took her out (or took her out for a stupid reason) I'd rage. Not gonna go on the forums and make a total ass of myself, but I will seriously rage.
Oh, and since a lot of people like to compare DA to real life, I magine this: You're walking around with your girlfriend/boyfriend/friend. Then suddenly a bunch of guys pop out of a red & white van marked "Bioware", and abduct whoever you walked with.
You: Dude, wtf are you doing with with my girl/boy/friend?!
Abductor: Well, we had to take them out...for certain reasons...
You: The hell?!
Abductor: Worry not my friend, for we give you this brand new girl/boy/friend instead!
*Some totally unknown dude/dudette walks out of the van*
You: Wha? But I loved my old girl/boy/friend! She/he was one in a million!
Abductor: Well too bad. Have a nice day!

[screwoffreg]

We shouldn't be so quick to judge folks. Maybe we just need patience...if it turns out Bioware has a large expansion due in early 2011 (ME 2 does as well!) then all of our fears may be unfounded. That is at least what I am hoping for.





As to the rumor about Leliana's voice actress, where did someone hear that? That would be terrible!!!

[SirOccam]

2011 is going to be an amazing year. ME3, DAO2, Game of Thrones on HBO.



I really think DAO2 is going to be our same PC, and I think some characters will be back. Maybe some will be alive but "unavailable," a la ME2, but if that's the case they'll be back someday. There is still so much of the world to discover. Personally I can't wait to see Orlais, and specifically Val Royeaux, ever since hearing Leliana describe it. Not to mention that that's the direction Morrigan seems to be heading ("across the Frostback Mountains" if you did the DR, or specifically mentioning Orlais if you didn't).



Don't get too upset about these characters missing for Awakening. It's just an expansion. It's not *that* weird that they won't be there. As David Gaider has said, it's not like they came along and broke everyone up. It would be foolish to assume that these characters we all loved so much are just gone forever simply because you didn't all stay with each other for every waking moment after the events of DAO.

[Aybeden]

I agree that it would have been nice to have been allowed to choose just one existing companion to accompany us. However there is also the issue of having a romanced companion in an expansion without romance. A sudden disappearance of the romantic attachment between them would be very story-breaking and I suspect that was in the Devs minds too. However there may have been a solution to that. Maybe they could have allowed recognition of an existing romance by carrying over some of the existing 'routine' affectionate dialogue and maybe the option to kiss during relaxed moments, but involving no change to the existing relationship or the creation of new ones.

However; no Leliana, no romance, no real picking up of existing stories that had some continuity: It's this sort of lack of real connection and continuity between Origins and the 'expansion' that means I won't be rushing out to buy Awakening for now, particularly as my warden has Leliana romanced and I think their story would have fitted in well with the expansion story.

I'd miss Aubrey Ashburn's voice too, if it's gone.

P.S. However, having read Ken Muzyka's vision for the future of BW games, I'm excited to see that vision come to life in DAO2 and, hopefully, if development allow:in other but more fully-featured expansions.

Modifié par Aybeden, 11 mars 2010 - 07:46 .

[Aybeden]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Okay seriously people who don't want to buy the expansion, just because their "love interrest" isn't in it, got issues...

Here are some theoreitical questions for all of you with a girlfriend/boyfriend... Do you think you will still be with that person in 6-12+ months?
If no: Viola, there's your reason for Leli/Zev not being in the expansion.
If yes: Do you know EXACTLY where your girlfriend/boyfriend is in 6-12+ months from now?
If no: Isn't there then just the slightest of chances that Zev or Leli had better things to do thatn stick around with you just for a few days/months and that it just so happens that Awakenings takes place during this?
If yes: Loosen up...

I think in the case of most of us, it's more than just the lack of Leliana even if she is a big issue here.

However, you know some of us who feel this way do have stable, long-term and loving real-life relationships. Sure, I had the usual short ones too when I was in my teens, but then one girl and I sort of clicked, we stayed together for a year, then we got married, had two kids and all that stuff and we still have a very close, loving and romantic relationship. Yet that doesn't prevent me from being drawn into and involved in the romance of the story and its characters or developing feelings about them in the way Ken Muzyka (head of BW) hoped for in his vision for BW games. Nor does it prevent my wife from being the same way, yet she runs her own business and is a strong and very independently minded person. Yet she is very romantic at home. In a way I think it helps us both to recognise that characters in well-developed stories can also be seen to develop long-term relationships that are meaningful and ones we can feel involved in, whether in books, cinema or games like Origins. These things give much more depth to stories, and help us to get more out of them, and that breaking that depth can feel very wrong.

I'm not wanting to bore people with personal details; it's just to say that no-one should make assumptions.

[SirOccam]

It's not that uncommon in Fantasy series for characters who are in love to be separated for extended periods of time. Look at Richard and Kahlan in Sword of Truth. It just makes the reunion that much better.

[Haasth]

You know... I always kind of thought Morrigan was the face of Dragon Age: Origins. Sure, not the voice. But definitely the face. Leliana never felt that important to me as a character... 

Modifié par Haasth, 11 mars 2010 - 02:26 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Lelianna wasn't important as a character... She is one of the completely expendable party members and aren't essential to the story. Morigan and Alistair were the two only important party NPCs in Origins.