92 réponses à ce sujet

[Hopefire]

For the most part, I do like the hard science fiction of the game. Most of it is done reasonably well, three or four solid steps above Star Trek and a step or two above Battlestar Galactica. However, reading the Codex (I know, I know, who does that?) the entry on Combat Endurance in space annoyed me a bit. I'm not an expect on physics or science, but as I understand vacuums, the game is wrong. 

Basically, it gets the first part right: as you fight, heat builds up in the ship, more quickly than the ship can disperse it. Presumably, new methods to dump heat have been paced by new weapons systems generating more heat. In any case, the final paragraph is what annoys me:

"Combat endurance varies by ship design, and by the battle's location. Battles in the deep cold of interstellar space can go on for some time. Engagements close to a star are brief. Since habitable worlds are usually close to a star, battles over them are frantic."
 
Unless you're fighting in a nebulae that's gone cold, interstellar space and the high quality vacuum therein is where you'll heat up FASTEST. Seriously. Basic property of a vacuum, it has no temperature. There's a reason a thermos is vacuum sealed - you don't get crossover of heat across a vacuum. So, if the Normandy is hot from a battle, going into deep space isn't a good way to cool off. Finding a cold rock to rest against, somehow channeling waste heat into some sort of discharge, or basking in a cool nebulae would be a much better way of chilling out. 

[Salkey]

Nice Find........but its probably just a careless mistake in a near perfect/ or close to be perfect game...ahem DLC.....anyways give the Dev team some slack they worked like dogs to create this game. I see where your coming from but maybe you just made them realize this and maybe they will fix this in a nearby patch or when the next DLC ships out.

[Delta426]

Vacuum sucks - clever

[Farkingrouse]

Its only a game... calm down.

[Delta426]

Farkingrouse wrote...

Its only a game... calm down.

The difference between good, immersive science fiction and crappy star trek, is the science part.

[Murmillos]

heat radiation.. much like how fire works..

kids really need to go back to school and listen to science.

Modifié par Murmillos, 21 février 2010 - 04:22 .

[Salkey]

Delta426 wrote...

Farkingrouse wrote...

Its only a game... calm down.

The difference between good, immersive science fiction and crappy star trek, is the science part.

so true......

[huntrrz]

 You can read that slightly differently, and it isn't so "wrong":

Battles in deep space can go on longer than battles near a star - not because heat radiates better in deep space, but because the heat of the star is not contributing to the problem by heating up the hull further...

Howzat?  

Modifié par huntrrz, 21 février 2010 - 04:24 .

[Delta426]

Q= mc∆t

∆t= Q/mc

If there is no m where does all the heat go?

[Hopefire]

Salkey wrote...

Nice Find........but its probably just a careless mistake in a near perfect/ or close to be perfect game...ahem DLC.....anyways give the Dev team some slack they worked like dogs to create this game. I see where your coming from but maybe you just made them realize this and maybe they will fix this in a nearby patch or when the next DLC ships out.

That's my hope.

It's an easy mistake to make, really only takes a few lines tweaked more than an entire entry changed. 

[ImperialOperative]

You're comprehending it incorrectly. They aren't saying that the deep-space cools off the ships so that they can work for longer, it's that when they're close to the star the heat added by the radiation lessens the amount of time they can fight.

[DeathByWoodchipper]

Space is no perfect vacuum. At any given point, there should be a non-zero quantity of thermal energy. Although there would be no heat transfer due to conduction or convection, thermal radiation would still play a major role. And, given that heat flows from "hot" to "cold," it is conceivable that the "hot" body (a ship) will transfer it's heat energy into the "cold" body (space) via thermal radiation.

[DeathByWoodchipper]

ImperialOperative wrote...

You're comprehending it incorrectly. They aren't saying that the deep-space cools off the ships so that they can work for longer, it's that when they're close to the star the heat added by the radiation lessens the amount of time they can fight.

But she's also saying that flying a hot ship into the "vacuum" of space would only worsen the problem of heat dissapation, essentially implying that the "vacuum" would insulate the ship.

[Lukertin]

Delta426 wrote...

Q= mc∆t
∆t= Q/mc
If there is no m where does all the heat go?

By your wonderful logic and science, the heat we experience from the sun shining on our face is magic

[RighteousRage]

Delta426 wrote...

Q= mc∆t
∆t= Q/mc
If there is no m where does all the heat go?

http://en.wikipedia....rared_radiation

[ImperialOperative]

meh

Modifié par ImperialOperative, 21 février 2010 - 04:55 .

[Scarecrow_ES]

Realistically, any particles of matter that DO exist within the vacuum of space are likely to already have high energy associated with them (traveling the cosmos in various high energy states emitted by stars and other such high energy masses), or will be unable to take on much energy from any energy-abundant piece of matter it contacts (gaining and losing small amounts of energy quickly). In either case, this does not bode well for bleeding any "heat" in a vacuum.



That said, it COULD be possible to transform "heat" into some other sort of energy which more readily radiates through space... x-rays, radio waves, whatever... essentially "beaming" away excess energy. In that case, being next to large masses or in nebula could be a hinderance to energy sinking.

[Delta426]

RighteousRage wrote...

Delta426 wrote...

Q= mc∆t
∆t= Q/mc
If there is no m where does all the heat go?

http://en.wikipedia....rared_radiation

So, that's how you dissipate heat in a vacuum. However like the OP said you would cool off way faster through conduction rather than radiation.

[DeathByWoodchipper]

Heat will be transferred almost exclusively in the form of thermal radiation. It would come in the form of low frequency waves and should cool the ship to some extent.



This question reminded me of the Apollo 13 mission. When the crew's capsule lost the majority of its power, they had to shut of a lot of hardware. The lack of internally generated heat caused the internal temperature of the vessel to drop dramatically, forcing the crew to evacuate into the lunar module. So, even in the "vacuum" of space, heat transfer still occurs.

[Jayce]

If radiation didn't work in vacuum earth would be a glacial snowball. The point about fighting near stars causing shorter, more frantic, engagements is that ships cannot dissipate heat as efficiently due to solar radiation 'warming them up'. So "interstellar space is 'cooler'" or "the lower background temprature acts as an even greater insulation" don't apply.

[didymos1120]

The one thing the codex actually gets kinda, sorta wrong here?  Saying space is "cold".  You can say a perfect vacuum has a temperature of 0 kelvin, but that's more of a technicality than anything else. I.e. a thermometer in thermal equilibrium "with" a perfect vacuum will read zero.  But, perfect vacuums don't exist anyway.  In actual, deep interstellar space, where any other source of radiation is negligible, the equilibrium temperature of any object will be that of the CMB, or a bit less than 3K.   But all that's getting pretty nitpicky: the codex is basically just fine on this subject.

Modifié par didymos1120, 21 février 2010 - 05:51 .

[BP20125810]

heat travels quickly through a vacuun. Youre all wrong, because the deep vaccum of space is sucking the heat out of the Normandy. it would only heat it up further if the vacuum was inside the normandy, but since the vaccum is outside, it would cool off.



So Bioware was right about this.

[ImperialOperative]

Here y'all, go edumacate yourselves.

[didymos1120]

BP20125810 wrote...

heat travels quickly through a vacuun. Youre all wrong, because the deep vaccum of space is sucking the heat out of the Normandy. it would only heat it up further if the vacuum was inside the normandy, but since the vaccum is outside, it would cool off.
.

Umm, no:   heat is a massive problem in spacecraft.  Sure, you'll lose heat in a vacuum.... but relatively slowly. Just because said heat is radiated, and thus travels at c once radiated has nothing whatsoever to do with the rate at which a body in a vacuum cools.  Give Google a spin if you don't believe me.

Modifié par didymos1120, 21 février 2010 - 05:15 .

[Naughty Bear]

I am slowly touching myself. I love it when you ladies talk dirty.