210 réponses à ce sujet

[SurfaceBeneath]

Madecologist wrote...

I actually agree with a lot of what SurfaceBeneath said here, so no need to repeat her points. Just seconding their comments.

The only point I will add that is my own is, I do not like the term "cheating". As seen many people prefer to use it in the frame of ah yes, the "Reapers". I can see them air quoting it as they speak. The reason why I don't like it is because many people seem to translate it to cheating (without the quotes) and then start adopting a moral high horse attitude. Hopefully it will handled in a fashion the poster I seconded said it would. That would be what I expect. Appropriate yet reasonably mature consequences, like the ME1 LI calls it off and is hurt by Shepard's ease of moving on would be such an example of it. Not the only one, but one of the possibilities. I noticed now after checking back, even the Bioware writers when they wrote of it in the interviews, used "cheating" or *cheating*. So they too seem to be air quoting it too.

I just wish people would stop acting like those of us that went with a ME2 LI after a ME1 LI are intergalactic space jiggalo/mistresses. It shows a certain lack of insight on how adult relationships work.

I really hate the "C" word too <_<

People need to stop calling it "Cheating" and "Faithful". It feels like a judgement in of itself... like those who stuck with the ME1 LIs are somehow morally superior to those who decided they liked the ME2 romances better (or simply just wanted to try something new).

[Nozybidaj]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

I really hate the "C" word too <_<

People need to stop calling it "Cheating" and "Faithful". It feels like a judgement in of itself... like those who stuck with the ME1 LIs are somehow morally superior to those who decided they liked the ME2 romances better (or simply just wanted to try something new).

Don't blame me.  BW are the ones that decided I was morally superior.

But, I agree, not because of the implied judgement of BW being all "we are tracking the cheetrz lolz" but because technically for you to have cheated there would have had to of been an already ongoing romance.  When they decided to just cut the previous romance out of the game I don't see how in ME3 they can rationalize calling it "cheating".

[Super_Fr33k]

Having recently re-romanced Liara in the first game, I'd like to remind some people that Liara is initially very hesitant towards a Shep relationship, because she takes the psychological intimacy of asari relationships very seriously. I don't think people are being fair or accurate in assuming she would cheat at all, let alone casually.



Back to the original point of the thread, I think Liara's evolution in the second game was not inconsistent so much as it lacked depth. Whether you romanced her or not, the dialogue is the same, and while I think it does offer some romantic undercurrents, it still is not nearly enough. While she suggests she's under surveillance in her office, I don't think that particularly matters-- as devoted as she is to Shep, she should've had a lot to say to him/her. But I give Bioware a pass on this, because ME2 was such a good game in general and ME3 can make it up to me.



For ME3 to do that though, it needs to break away from ME2 in one regard: have few enough party members that you can really, really flesh them out. I loved the diverse cast, but I gotta choose quality over quantity every time. No Zaeeds in ME3!

[Asheer_Khan]

"Ah yes...the Cheaters"...

I think dealing whit Harbinger and Co will be less difficult that face Liara's wrath if she discover that you cheat on her ("Well... 4 inch coffee cup is waiting for you Shepard!").:o
However my Shepard is loyal to her so she is safe and if this drell will have any delusions that he might "steal " Liara from her then... well... Thresher Maws on Tuchanka will have little 'fun" whit him.

Modifié par Asheer_Khan, 21 février 2010 - 01:40 .

[Nightwriter]

Face it. Liara is now a lost cause. There's no telling what the heck her deal is anymore. She's lost it.

“I can’t talk now, Shepard, I’ve got my head up my ass. I’m investigating my colon for signs of the Shadow Broker. It’s very important work, I’m very busy. I'm sure I'm getting close, I think he might be in there.”

Modifié par Nightwriter, 21 février 2010 - 01:48 .

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

I simply dont think the Liara cameo was good enough for this kind of character debate. There was barely anything to it, and it completely and totally sucked. No romance related dialogue whatsoever.



How on earth do you "cheat" or "stay loyal" if there is absolutely no romance in ME2 to stay loyal to/cheat on? It was complete garbage. The "troubled second act" of the romance amounted to an appearance on the Normandy at the start, a holo/photo on the desk, and an awkward and cut off kiss on Illium. Bioware actually needs to offer up some real content for any of this stuff to make sense IMO. At the moment there is no "second act" for Liara and Shepard.

[SurfaceBeneath]

Double post

Modifié par SurfaceBeneath, 21 février 2010 - 01:50 .

[SurfaceBeneath]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

I simply dont think Liara was good enough for this kind of character debate. There was barely anything to it, and it completely and totally sucked. No romance related dialogue whatsoever.

I completely agree.
:innocent:

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

I simply dont think Liara cameo was good enough for this kind of character debate. There was barely anything to it, and it completely and totally sucked. No romance related dialogue whatsoever.

And to make matters worse, the ME2 squadmates sucked even more. No to mention most of the characters in ME2 relied entirely upon romancing them, something which that retard SurfaceBeneath used to whine about with Liara, but is now strangely silent on. Hypocrisy much?

I completely agree.
:innocent:

Glad to see youve finally come to terms with it.

[Nozybidaj]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

I simply dont think Liara cameo was good enough for this kind of character debate. There was barely anything to it, and it completely and totally sucked. No romance related dialogue whatsoever.

And to make matters worse, the ME2 squadmates sucked even more. No to mention most of the characters in ME2 relied entirely upon romancing them, something which that retard SurfaceBeneath used to whine about with Liara, but is now strangely silent on. Hypocrisy much?

I completely agree.
:innocent:

Glad to see youve finally come to terms with it.

I think we found something we all agree on.

[SurfaceBeneath]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

I simply dont think Liara cameo was good enough for this kind of character debate. There was barely anything to it, and it completely and totally sucked. No romance related dialogue whatsoever.

And to make matters worse, the ME2 squadmates sucked even more. No to mention most of the characters in ME2 relied entirely upon romancing them, something which that retard SurfaceBeneath used to whine about with Liara, but is now strangely silent on. Hypocrisy much?

I completely agree.
:innocent:

Glad to see youve finally come to terms with it.

Oh you tricky mongoose!

[Haventh]

Liara is alright, she trusts Shepard, unlike Ash or Kaiden. My Paragon Shepard deserved the trust he didn't get from Ash. I seriously wanted to headbutt Ash, with my helmet on. Should be an option to do that. Ash isn't my Shepard's friend anymore.

But Liara had become much like her mother, ruthless. She works for the Shadow Broker, and she uses methods the old Liara wouldn't. My Paragon Shepard working for Cerberus is different, he doesn't do harm against civilians or being ruthless, and he didn't bend over like a dog for Cerberus, using their extreme ways, however this is exactly what Liara did, even though she is hunting the Shadow Broker. So it is completely different.

And then i moved on to my lovely Tali.

Anyone who thinks ME 2 squadmates suck is a blind idiot. Characters are much more rich in ME 2, loyalty missions make you more attached to them. If you still think they suck, go back to the squadmate empty Oblivion or something.

And LI's are meant for a deeper view. But how can you not know that? That is how it is in real life, you see your loved ones with a deeper view than those you don't know so much. 

Modifié par Haventh, 21 février 2010 - 02:08 .

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

Haventh wrote...

Anyone who thinks ME 2 squadmates suck is a blind idiot. Characters are much more rich in ME 2, loyalty missions make you more attached to them. If you still think they suck, go back to the squadmate empty Oblivion or something.

And LI's are meant for a deeper view. But how can you not know that? That is how it is in real life, you see your loved ones with a deeper view than those you don't know so much. 

Really? Im an idiot for seeing the fact that Tali has zero character development unless you romance her (and practically none even if you do)? Loyalty missions are shallow problems that need to be solved, and do nothing but disconnect the game, and serve as a crutch to support the weak plot.

You go ahead and enjoy a three dialogue romance, two of which are "are you sure Shepard?" if you want. Ill continue to ask for more instead, rather than accept such falsehoods as "the ME2 squad are improved compared to the ME1 squad".

Modifié par Dinkamus_Littlelog, 21 février 2010 - 02:18 .

[Mox Ruuga]

Mac Walters' reimagined "Liara" is FUBAR.

Of all the characters in need of a mercy killing in ME, she's at the top of the list.

[Vaenier]

I liked Liara. She was my femShep's love in ME1.

Why does she put her personal vendetta of revenge over saving the galaxy? Massive Reaper fleet is flying in and she is to busy playing Benezia to care. WTF?

[SurfaceBeneath]

Sure is opinion in here.

[InvaderErl]

Nightwriter wrote...

Face it. Liara is now a lost cause. There's no telling what the heck her deal is anymore. She's lost it.

“I can’t talk now, Shepard, I’ve got my head up my ass. I’m investigating my colon for signs of the Shadow Broker. It’s very important work, I’m very busy. I'm sure I'm getting close, I think he might be in there.”

Nobody said it so I will, LMAO.

[Nightwriter]

Haventh wrote...

Liara is alright, she trusts Shepard, unlike Ash or Kaiden. My Paragon Shepard deserved the trust he didn't get from Ash. I seriously wanted to headbutt Ash, with my helmet on. Should be an option to do that. Ash isn't my Shepard's friend anymore.

But Liara had become much like her mother, ruthless. She works for the Shadow Broker, and she uses methods the old Liara wouldn't. My Paragon Shepard working for Cerberus is different, he doesn't do harm against civilians or being ruthless, and he didn't bend over like a dog for Cerberus, using their extreme ways, however this is exactly what Liara did, even though she is hunting the Shadow Broker. So it is completely different.

And then i moved on to my lovely Tali.

Anyone who thinks ME 2 squadmates suck is a blind idiot. Characters are much more rich in ME 2, loyalty missions make you more attached to them. If you still think they suck, go back to the squadmate empty Oblivion or something.

And LI's are meant for a deeper view. But how can you not know that? That is how it is in real life, you see your loved ones with a deeper view than those you don't know so much. 

I agree, I found the ME2 LIs much richer. They just felt like deeper characters, and their loyalty missions added a whole new level to it all.

[vigna]

I'll say it again. On the first play through (having not read the comic) it really seemed like Liara moved on, met a new person, her new lover died, and she was trying to bring down the Shadow Broker for her new love more than anything....also maybe you, but only as a bonus.



That's how I saw it, and I was like ...WTF?



So then Tali came back to me (Tali and Liara were with me on 75% of missions in ME1) and I was Tali-hooked, or is that Tali-Hoed? Anyway, that stupid tree of dialogue that I never got really bothered me. You know, its kinda important to let the PC know that Liara was responsible for bringing you back, and the pain it caused her. Frack man.



So, I'll replay ME1 with a new Liara save (because I didn't get that dialogue tree) and new Shep, and that will be that. I'll keep my first ME2 shep as a testament to how easily Tali turned me.

[Barquiel]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

You go ahead and enjoy a three dialogue romance, two of which are "are you sure Shepard?" if you want. Ill continue to ask for more instead, rather than accept such falsehoods as "the ME2 squad are improved compared to the ME1 squad".

Well, I partially agree.

I would exclude Miranda (I think there is character development) and Jack (if you romance her)

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

Nightwriter wrote...


I agree, I found the ME2 LIs much richer. They just felt like deeper characters, and their loyalty missions added a whole new level to it all.

I thought they were so much weaker it hurts. And their loyalty missions were isolated side missions, as much about combat as about highlight a small facet of their personality.

Did their loyalty missions ever crop again after completion? No, its simply "Here is the problem" and "Problem solved, job done".

Id take richer dialogue and more conversations over a tacked on loyalty mission thats more than likely as much about killing and blowing stuff up as it is about developing a character.

Whats the extent of Mirandas loyalty mission? Learning that she cares about her sister, thats it. Beyond that its just a slog through an Illium warehouse or cargo bay of some sort.

[SurfaceBeneath]

To be fair though Dink, you did say the same thing of DA:O's romances.

[InvaderErl]

Not to throw stones, but half of Liara's dialogue was codex info. For a love interest that's not acceptable.

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

To be fair though Dink, you did say the same thing of DA:O's romances.

I did find (well Morrigans is entwined with the plot at once stage, so thats got to be lauded at least) them to be inferior. They were certainly better than ME2s romances in terms of learning about the character, but it had them same disconnected feeling. Almost all of Tali's romance can be completed in a matter of minutes provided you have 2 or 3 short side missions available for completion. After that its simply a wait until before venturing beyond the Omega 4 relay for a brief romance cutscene that immediately skips to the suicide mission with no dialogue folllowing it.

Then, you get a small acknowledgement from Tali, and then (bizarrely) the romance resets to an earlier stage.

I just cant describe it in any other way than weak, and definitely not an improvement.

Modifié par Dinkamus_Littlelog, 21 février 2010 - 02:38 .

[SurfaceBeneath]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...
I just cant describe it in any other way than weak, and definitely not an improvement.

Nor do you have to.